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Roderick_BR
2007-06-01, 07:16 AM
Based on some ideas in the forum (I'm looking for the original threads so I can credit them)

Okay, what's the monk purpose? To play DragonBall Z in D&D. Pretty much that.
While the fighter is an armored combat expert (or was supposed to), the monk is a unarmed combat expert.
But while a fighter, at least at lower levels, can be usesul. a monk can survive, and nothing else.
Advanges:
1) Flurry of blows
2) No need for weapon or armor
3) High movement
4) High savings
5) Special resistances
6) Special powers.
Flaws:
1) Flurry and high movement can't be used together
2) Due to MAD, it's hard to keep a good defense and a good offense. A fighter just need a high strenght, and get magical weapon and armor
3) Most abilities are just for fluffy. They are not useful and suck terribly. Talk any language? Slow fall (and only nearby walls)? Etheral Jaunt once a day? You can do a death effect!... once a WEEK! XD

Here is the basic table I cooked up:
Revised Monk

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Flurry of Blows|Unarmed Damage|Ki Strike|Unarmed adaptability
1|+1|Basic Flurry|1d6||1 handed weapon
2|+2||1d6||
3|+3||1d6|Magic|2 handed weapon
4|+4|Precise Flurry|1d6||
5|+5||1d6||
6|+6/+1||1d8||Tripping
7|+7/+2||1d8|Silver|
8|+8/+3|Improved Flurry|1d8||
9|+9/+4||1d8||Grappling
10|+10/+5||1d8||
11|+11/+6/+1||1d10|Cold Iron|
12|+12/+7/+2|Accurate Flurry|1d10||Disarming
13|+13/+8/+3||1d10||
14|+14/+9/+4||1d10||
15|+15/+10/+5||1d10|Lawful|Counter Charge
16|+16/+11/+6/+1|Greater Flurry|1d12||
17|+17/+12/+7/+2||1d12||
18|+18/+13/+8/+3||1d12||Reach
19|+19/+14/+9/+4||1d12|Adamantine|
20|+20/+15/+10/+5||1d12||
[/table]

And this is how the Flurry would look for a full monk.


{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Flurry of Blows|Modified Attack
1|+1|Basic Flurry|-1/-1
2|+2||+0/+0
3|+3||+1/+1
4|+4|Precise Flurry|+3/+3
5|+5||+4/+4
6|+6/+1||+5/+5/+0
7|+7/+2||+6/+6/+1
8|+8/+3|Improved Flurry|+7/+7/+2/+2
9|+9/+4||+8/+8/+3/+3
10|+10/+5||+9/+9/+4/+4
11|+11/+6/+1||+10/+10/+5/+5/+0/
12|+12/+7/+2|Accurate Flurry|+12/+12/+7/+7/+2
13|+13/+8/+3||+13/+13/+8/+8/+3
14|+14/+9/+4||+14/+14/+9/+9/+4
15|+15/+10/+5||+15/+15/+10/+10/+5
16|+16/+11/+6/+1|Greater Flurry|+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1
17|+17/+12/+7/+2||+17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2
18|+18/+13/+8/+3||+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3
19|+19/+14/+9/+4||+19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4
20|+20/+15/+10/+5||+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5
[/table]

If you multiclass, you get the normal multiclass BAB, and applies the Flurries you got. For example, if you are a monk 10/cleric 10, your BAB will be +15/+10/+5, and will have Basic Flurry, Precise Flurry, and Improved Flurry, being able to flurry with 2 extra attacks, with a -1 penalty to your attacks.

Changes:

Base Attack Bonus: First thing you'll notice: A higher BAB. WIth a full progression, monks can actually hit monsters in meelee. They got one more attack/round, and won't need an amulet to get that +5 they needed before to get near a +20
Flurry: The monk's key ability: Basically, they work like TWF, with a basic, improved, and greater version. I made it because with a greater BAB, and adding a 3rd extra attack (Flurry usually adds only 2 attacks), it would be umbalanced if combined with actual TWF, so they won't stack. Flurry is a unarmed/monk weapon only TWF. There's also the abilities that reduces the attack penalties. At 20th level, they'll be hitting with +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5. Better than +15/+15/+15/+10/+5.
Special: When you are fully unarmed, you flurry as normal. When you use two monk weapons, or a dual monk weapon, you TWFights as normal. If you attack with only one monk weapon, half your attacks will be unarmed, and half will be with the weapon. You decide which one will be the "main" and which one will be the "secondary".
Damage: Since monks can flurry better than TWF fighters and rangers, I nerfed the damage. It means that a monk is a machine gun of punches, while fighters and barbarians deals the heavy damage, and rangers are skill-monkey warriors. Remember that at level 20, monks have practically a greataxe in each hand. They still have low critical hits (only 20/x2), so they won't over shadow the others meelers.
Ki Strike: Monks have problems to overcome some DR, and since I nerfed his damage, I updated the Ki Strike. At higher levels, the monk's hands counts as special materials, alongside adamantine, for damage reduction purposes.
Unarmed adaptability: The final change, and this one may get confusing: Since monks won't be damage dealers, it makes sense that they get better combat options. These are the changes:
* 1 handed weapon: Monk's unarmed strikes counts as 1 handed weapons when it benefits them, instead of unarmed/light weapons, like determining strenght bonus to damage (full strenght bonus, instead of 1/2), or using power attack. They still count as unarmed/light for others benefits (like using Weapon Finesse). This is the original rule. This applies normally during the use of others abilities (except 2HW) and flurries.
* 2 handed weapon: At level 3, Monk's unarmed strikes counts as 2 handed weapons when it benefits them, instead of unarmed/light weapons, like determining strenght bonus to damage (x1.5 times the strenght bonus), using power attack (getting +2 to damage for each -1 to roll), or sundering/disarming others weapons. They still count as unarmed/light or 1-handed weapons for others benefits (like using Weapon Finesse). They can't use this ability when flurring or using others abilities (they use the 1HW ability when not using the 2HW ability)
* Tripping: Monk's unarmed attacks gives him a +2 bonus to tripping checks as a tripping weapon.
* Grappling: Monk's unarmed attacks gives him a +2 bonus to grapple checks as a grappling weapon.
* Disarming: Monk's unarmed attacks gives him a +2 bonus to disarm checks as a disarming weapon.
* Counter Charge: Monk's unarmed attacks gives deals twice the damage when he's ready to counter a charge, like lances do, with tripple damage on critical hits.
* Reach: Monk's unarmed attacks can reach one square (5 feet) beyond his normal reach.
A monk can't combine these abilities. He can't combine 2HW with Tripping, for example. 1HW ability is always active with the others abilities, except 2HW.
Other than 1HW, you can't use these abilities in a flurry, as well.
You can activate a ability once each round as a free action, and it affects all your attacks that round, including your attacks of oportunities. If you have only 1HW ability active, you can change it to other ability as a free action when you get an attack of oportunity. The change will affect your attacks of oportunities untill your next turn. Reverting back to 1HW can be used only in your turn and doesn't "spend" your ability change for that round.
And as an extra, I'd make bow and long bow (but not composite versions) be available for monks (but not as monk weapons). Quarterstaff can count as monk weapons too, so he can flurry with it.

I didn't work on the rest of the abilities, but I'm likely to keep the AC bonus and Saves as it is.
With these changes, monks will be dealing less damage, but will hit more times, will be able to overcome DR easier, and will have weapon abilities they lacked.
For feats, I have the following:
Two Weapon Fighting: As I said, it won't stack with Flurry, but flurry can be used only with unarmed attacks and monk weapons.
Two Weapon Defense, Two Weapon Rend, Two Weapon Pounce/Dual Strike: For purpose of qualifying for these feats, each version of flurry counts as the same version of TWF. A monk with Improved Flurry can buy TWD and Improved TWD, for example. He won't be able to use these feats with normal TWF unless he gets these feats though. For example, a monk with Flurry and Two Weapon Defense gains a +1 shield bonus when flurrying unarmed or using two kamas, but won't get these bonus if he replaces one of the kamas for a long sword (even if he's proficient with it). If he later gets TWF, he gets the TWD benefits as normal.
Perfect Two Weapon Fighting(Epic): Monks will have access to the Perfect Flurry feat at epic level. Do the same as Perfect TWF: Allows a 4th attack with his "off hand" attack.
Itens:
As I said, a monk won't need an amulet of mighty fists, although he could still get it. But he's better off picking an amulet of natural armor. As was suggested also, the pendant of wisdom will be turned into a headband, to free up space (this will also benefit divine spellcasters).
Weapons: At lower level, monks may need them to get special abilities (tripping, disarming). At higher levels, he can use them to get magic effects (enhancement bonus, special weapon effects). Since his unarmed damage was reduced, he won't lose much switching for these.
An interesting item (I don't remember the book. DMG2, Book of Miniatures, or BoED, or something) has a magic bracelet, that would give magic bonuses to unarmed strikes, and enable the striker with any magical effect he wants to add (flamming, impact, etc). These could be worked on those weird gloves Ryu uses in Street Fighter, as someone else here suggested, and freeing the arms to bracers of armor. They are costly, tough, as you need to always pay for a pair.

So, that's it for unarmed strikes. I tried to make it less sucky without making it more powerful than a fighter/ranger.

I'm aware it may be confusing, so I'll try to add some examples:

Round 1: A monk starts his turn with a charge, so he uses his 2HW ability and power attacks the enemy. Another enemy gives him an AoO, and he attacks with this ability still.
Round 2: He switches to disarming, adding a +2 to his disarm attempt to pull a weapon off an enemie's hands.
Round 3: He switches back to 1HW, and flurries, attacking 7 times. After that, someone tries to sneak by him. He gains an AoO, and swicthes his ability to tripping, and gains a +2 to trip the opponent.
Round 4: He picks up a +5 kama, and switchs his ability to counter charge, and prepares to receive a charge (readies). He gets his AoO, dealing twice his unarmed damage to the charger. If he have Dual Strike, he has one free attack with his kama.
Round 5: He switches his ability to 2HW again, and flurries, his 4 normal attacks unarmed, his 3 extra attacks with his kama.

As usual, your thoughts, suggestions, and criticisms are welcome.
Note, these changes doesn't take in account the others homebrewed feat changes, like the TWF changes.

Indon
2007-06-01, 07:39 AM
Monk flurry is still not condusive to using Power Attack, though, and now it deals less damage, so really it's about the same except the monk gets a bit more ability to penetrate DR.

I'm going to assume you aren't getting rid of the torrent of interesting monk abilities in favor of this, so at least this monk won't also be uninteresting.

So, in a nutshell:

-2-handed weapon power attack multiplier is 2, monk unarmed power attack multiplier is still 1, and they won't even have ginormous damage dice to fall back on, though they deal their small damage dice a couple more times. Your monk is scarcely more effective in combat than the old monk, and quite possibly less condusive to optimization.

-TWF gives no power attack multiplier to the off-hand, so even the extra flurry attacks are negligable.

-Flurry and high movement can be used together. The most common example is the monster ability "Pounce", which allows a full attack on a charge. Perhaps you should give monks this ability instead?

-Your change does not affect the offense-defense balance for the monk, but you probably know that already.

-Dragonball, not Dragonball Z. This monk doesn't fire planet-destroying energy blasts, generally (though, 5 minutes of D&D game time can take forever...).

Telonius
2007-06-01, 08:47 AM
The table doesn't include the monk's Fast Movement, AC bonus, or fluffy abilities. Would they be retained?

I'd made this suggestion in another recent thread: As soon as the monk gets Magic fists, he can undergo a special ki focusing ritual. It functions just like the Craft Magic Arms/Armor feat, and takes the same amount of time, xp, and gold (purchasing special incense that's consumed during the ritual). The costs can't be reduced by any means, and nobody can aid him in any way during it. He doesn't need access to spells to do it, and can enchant his unarmed strike (including headbutts, etc) to a price modifier up to his monk level/2 (Max +10 at 20th level). Special restriction: Can't make his fists Anarchic. He can use a similar ritual to focus his ki defensively, as though he were wearing armor (with no penalty to flurry or fast movement). These abilities would only function when the monk is unarmed or unarmored, respectively.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-01, 09:06 AM
I've only got one thing to bring that hasn't been addressed before: Why not make a Chaotic Monk?

Telonius
2007-06-01, 10:20 AM
I go back and forth about the monk alignment question quite a bit. There's a much better argument for keeping it than keeping the non-lawful Bard restrictions, imo. Generally, the fluff idea of the Monk is of a character that spends years of training, discipline, and focus in order to master their martial arts. They might study under a master, or go off on their own to achieve the state of mind necessary for victory. But either way, they have to be willing to submit themselves to either lawful authority (the Master) or personal dedication (crazy training, self-discovery, meditation, etc). This would strongly imply a lawful alignment. The argument would go that a character who is chaotic - resentful of authority, rebellious, unfocused, unwilling to accept discipline - would never be able to achieve this.

I personally see some room for exceptions - a monk who's gotten so wrapped up in the meditation that he loses sense of self, and gives in to the formless chaos of the universe, for example. There is no other mechanical reason (besides the class alignment restriction) that a chaotic monk couldn't exist. So I would houserule in a chaotic monk if the player had a really good background for him. However, those sorts of excellent characters are definitely few and far between. I wouldn't really feel good about removing the requirement.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-01, 10:36 AM
What about a Monk who's has a strong monk-bloodline, and as such is a natural Monk but chafes under authority? The lawful requirement is pointless, as it can easily be changed through backstory. It'd be like a DM enforcing racial alignment rules.

DM: So you picked Orc, eh? Well, theres a defenseless mother and her child walking down the street, what do you do?
Player: Uh.. I walk past without paying any attention 'cause I got better things to do?
DM: What's your alignment?
Player: Uh. Neutral Good?
DM: Grummush destroys you for being an abomination to Orcs. Roll up a new character.

Telonius
2007-06-01, 10:50 AM
Under the usual Monk fluff, "natural monk" doesn't really make any sense. The monk's abilities are achieved by hard work and discipline, not natural ability or bloodlines. Even if that character were to undergo the standard Monk training, the cool monk-y abilities just wouldn't take. It's like trying to teach a kid who just goofs off in class. Yeah, they'd have gone through the class, but they wouldn't really learn anything. Same way with the Monk. The guy might have some naturally high dexterity, wisdom, or strength, and Pai Mei might have had him hauling jugs of water up and down mountainsides for a year. But without his own decision to learn (which requires some degree of discipline) he's not going to come out of the experience having the Monk abilities.

Poppatomus
2007-06-01, 10:54 AM
What about a Monk who's has a strong monk-bloodline, and as such is a natural Monk but chafes under authority? The lawful requirement is pointless, as it can easily be changed through backstory. It'd be like a DM enforcing racial alignment rules.

DM: So you picked Orc, eh? Well, theres a defenseless mother and her child walking down the street, what do you do?
Player: Uh.. I walk past without paying any attention 'cause I got better things to do?
DM: What's your alignment?
Player: Uh. Neutral Good?
DM: Grummush destroys you for being an abomination to Orcs. Roll up a new character.

Have to say I agree with Telonius more than with you, Zero. Of course the DM can do what they wish but there is a difference between a DM, say, allowing for a usually evil race to have a good member, than changing a restriction on a voluntary class.


I agree that there must be exceptions to any rule, but the fact is that the justifiction for the monk class's special abilities are based on their respect and reverence for the system of practice and meditation they've chosen. This system isn't just incidental, or even accidental, as in the case of the fighter, but dominates their life and history. they've made a committment to this training, and that is an inherently lawful act. (shameless plug: looking for a more chaotic melee fighter with some neat abilities how about the daoist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45573))

To me the bard's alignment restriction is basically just flavor. There are plenty of ways to gain bardic knowledge without wandering from town to town, and a disciplined, system loving fellow seems just as likely to play moving music as a free spirit. The paladin, on the other end of the spectrum, barely makes sense in the absence of a committment to both righteous thought and lawful action.

The monk falls in between, but closer to the paladin. the source of their power is a system of training and behavior, not just innate capacity or random experience. that's why their progression is so static. just my opinion of course, but to me even the monks that seem chaotic are still of lawful alignment, because inevitable there is a code they value above their personal freedom. It's not the same as the "lawfulness" of the paladin, but its still lawful.

Roderick_BR
2007-06-01, 11:38 AM
@Indom:
When a monk attacks with 2HW style, he gains all the benefits, including Power Attack bonuses.
And a monk already gains the benefit of gaining 1:1 P.A. bonus with his "off hand", doesn't him? If he doesn't, assume this one does.
I didn't touch the movement/full attack issue, because I don't want to nerf fighters and rangers (even more). Maybe adjust some feats so all they have the same chance.
Yes, I didn't increase the attack power, just made him more versatile, and tried to remove the P.A. problem.
And you are right, DB, not DBZ :smallbiggrin:

@Telonius:
Yes, I worked only in the unarmed/flurry stuff. The rest is as normal.
I like the enchantment idea.

@ZeroNumerous:
Good question. Personally, I see monks as those zen people. Monks that can be chaotic would be something like martial artists. Something to work on.

@Poppatomus:
True. Most things are just flavor. Alignment is one. But then again, flavor is what makes D&D... D&D :smallsmile:
Plug dully noted :smallwink:

Matthew
2007-06-11, 01:32 PM
Interesting stuff. Looks very close to my own thoughts about this Class. You're dead right that Power Attack is not the obstacle Indon is making it out to be. It does work with Two Handed Flurry (generally via a Staff) and it does work with the Off Hand.

I'll go along with the Full BAB, but I find the Flurry mechanic a bit odd. Surely it should just run as a mirror for Two Weapon Fighting (assuming Perfected is available at Level 16), so that you end up with:

Normal Monk 20: 20/15/10/5
Flurrying Monk 20: 18/18/13/13/8/8/3/3
Two Weapon Flurrying Monk 20: 16/16/16/11/11/11/6/6/6/1/1/1

Mobile Two Weapon Fighting and Mobile Flurry of Blows Feats would go a long way towards making the Monk a more viable Character

Mobile Two Weapon Flurrying Monk 20: 16/16/16

Unarmed damage increases never made much sense to me. I always thought the Monk would benefit from some sort of limited Ki Strike Ability.

Just my two copper coins...