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Lostintransit
2007-06-02, 12:44 PM
Hi all,

I have a problem - Does stunned make your character helpless? Looking at my DMG I'm not quite sure.

The reason for wanting to know is I have a character idea for tomorrow's game, it involves an assassain class that can make X coup de graces per round, where X is the number of your meleee strikes +1.

I was pondering on using the dust of sneezing and choking (DC15 fort - failed 2d6 CON dam, pass stunned 5d4 rounds) letting people pass the save (we are level 13) or take stupid CON drain (It's also got a radius of 20ft so can hit lots of targets) Then making coupe de graces on all the stunned people. The class lets you deal your damage as STR, DEX or CON drain if you score a crit (which coup de grace is) meaning I will deal at least 7d6 sneak attack + other damage to the CON, reducing it to 0 or less killing out right.

On pge 301 of my DMG it says that a stunned character can't take any actions. Paralyzed says that a character unable to take actions is paralyzed which is listed under helpless. Helpless also says that a character at an opponents mercy is helpless and stunned says that the character drops everything held and can't take any actions what so ever (not even free actions!) That sounds like at another persons mercy to me!

I'm pretty certain thats the way it works but I just want to be sure....

So anyone else think thats what it is?

Oh, also can you take free actions while moving? (I.e. move 10ft take free action then make last 20ft of your move action?)

Regards

Lost

NEO|Phyte
2007-06-02, 12:46 PM
Stunned is not Helpless.

lotofsnow
2007-06-02, 12:50 PM
I would say that stunned would only equal helpless if the rules stated it specifically, but they don't. In paralyzed, the rules actually state the character is helpless.

Lostintransit
2007-06-02, 01:11 PM
Stunned is not Helpless.

Thats not exactly a well described response!:smalltongue:

seriously though, if you can't take any actions at all, not even talking or wiggling your toes, that sounds like your at the mercy of whoever wonders past. Or are you seriously saying that if someone is stock still and cannot defend themselves in any way then they aren't helpless?????



Regards

Lost

Stephen_E
2007-06-02, 01:14 PM
No, Stunned isn't helpless and the DMG doesn't say that.

The DMG doesn't say that if you are unabale to take actions you're paralysed.

It says that if you're paralysed you can't act.

These are two completely different statements.

Stunned people can't act, but that has nothing to do with been paralysed.

Your argument would be like me saying you and your sister (hypothetical sister) both have brown hair. Your sister is female so you must be female as well!

Stunned has a number of effects, one of which is the inability to act.

Paraylization has a number of effects, one of which is the inability to act.

The similarity ends there.
Stunned makes you lose your Dex bonus. Paralysation makes your Dex=0.
Stunned makes you drop what you're holding. Paralyzation makes you unable to drop what you're holding.
Stunned gives you a -2 AC penalty. Paralysation makes you Helpless which has a whole range of effects on your AC, none of which is a -2.

Stephen

Lostintransit
2007-06-02, 01:26 PM
No, Stunned isn't helpless and the DMG doesn't say that.

The DMG doesn't say that if you are unabale to take actions you're paralysed.

It says that if you're paralysed you can't act.

These are two completely different statements.

Stunned people can't act, but that has nothing to do with been paralysed.

Your argument would be like me saying you and your sister (hypothetical sister) both have brown hair. Your sister is female so you must be female as well!

Stunned has a number of effects, one of which is the inability to act.

Paraylization has a number of effects, one of which is the inability to act.

The similarity ends there.
Stunned makes you lose your Dex bonus. Paralysation makes your Dex=0.
Stunned makes you drop what you're holding. Paralyzation makes you unable to drop what you're holding.
Stunned gives you a -2 AC penalty. Paralysation makes you Helpless which has a whole range of effects on your AC, none of which is a -2.

Stephen

I was using the paraylzed as an example!:smalltongue:

What I was trying to get at is: um, well lets use an example:

2 people are fighting each other. Person A has a sword and shield, person B has a dagger. Person A is stunned for lets say 10 rounds, drops both his sword and shield(as per the rules). Now person A cannot take actions (As per pge 301) actions include moving, talking, attacking etc. So all person B has to do is walk over and cut there throat, as person A cannot take actions, not even to defend him/herself.

(For example get a friend/family member to stand stock still, taking no action then see how easy it would be to get to them(remember they can't move at all!)

Does that not sound like at an opponent completle mercy?

Thats kinda what i was getting at, also thanks for the replies!



Regards

Lost

JaronK
2007-06-02, 01:29 PM
And yet, by the rules, you cannot coup de gras a stunned person, so clearly there's a difference.

Think of stunned as "the target is reeling from the blow, spending all their energy just to stay upright, and is unable to take any conscerted action." As such, they're an easier target than normal, but they're not fully helpless.

JaronK

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-06-02, 01:29 PM
Stunned makes you lose your Dex bonus. Paralysation makes your Dex=0.
I think that's the main point right there. I don't think there's a single thing that makes you helpless without also dropping your Dex to effectively zero. Meanwhile, being just stunned only effectively reduces your Dexterity to ten (or eight if you want to count it with the additional AC penalty)*, and even then that only applies to AC. Stunning does not affect your Reflex saves in any form.

So, yeah, being stunned and unable to act doesn't drop you to being completely helpless. For any character with a relatively good Dexterity, it just makes them a little klutzy when it comes to defending themselves from most attacks. But they can still act reflexively and try to duck and weave when necessary. They just don't have the required faculties to act with strong intention.

[hr]* Though this analogy doesn't really apply if your Dex is below ten to begin with...

Lostintransit
2007-06-02, 01:48 PM
I think that's the main point right there. I don't think there's a single thing that makes you helpless without also dropping your Dex to effectively zero. Meanwhile, being just stunned only effectively reduces your Dexterity to ten (or eight if you want to count it with the additional AC penalty)*, and even then that only applies to AC. Stunning does not affect your Reflex saves in any form.

So, yeah, being stunned and unable to act doesn't drop you to being completely helpless. For any character with a relatively good Dexterity, it just makes them a little klutzy when it comes to defending themselves from most attacks. But they can still act reflexively and try to duck and weave when necessary. They just don't have the required faculties to act with strong intention.

<hr>* Though this analogy doesn't really apply if your Dex is below ten to begin with...


This is why I'm not sure..... because Helpless also says at your opponents completle mercy, and not being able to move in any form (you can't stand up, you can't get another weapon, you can't leave your square, you can't climb or swim etc) says to me that the character isn't 'defending themselves' ,they are at the complelte mercy of other characters.

They are basically stunned on the spot, with the moment of the stunning causng them to reflextivley drop whats in their hands.

For example under paraylzed it gives the example of the hold person spell (pge 241 PHB) which says "the subject becomes paraylzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speach.***it then talks about saving throws to break it***"

This is identically the same result as stunned, stunned characters cannot take any actions, even speach. so if a charcter that can't take actions is helpless it follows that a stunned character is helpless????

Gaaaahhhh!!!


Regards

Lost

(P.S. Thanks for the lively responses though they are very helpful, and keep em coming!:smallbiggrin: )

....
2007-06-02, 01:52 PM
If you're stunned you can't be coup de graced.

Everyone's told that. The rules are pretty clear. If you want to make it so that you can coup de grace a stunned person, go ahead, but the rules say no.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-06-02, 02:02 PM
This is why I'm not sure..... because Helpless also says at your opponents completle mercy, and not being able to move in any form (you can't stand up, you can't get another weapon, you can't leave your square, you can't climb or swim etc) says to me that the character isn't 'defending themselves' ,they are at the complelte mercy of other characters.
Being unable to act is not the same as being unable to move. A stunned character can move, albeit only reflexively. A stunned character is not at his or her opponent's mercy, therefore a stunned character is not helpless.

This also holds for being Dazed, by the way. A dazed character cannot freely act, but is still able to react to danger.

Attilargh
2007-06-02, 02:04 PM
This is identically the same result as stunned, stunned characters cannot take any actions, even speach. so if a charcter that can't take actions is helpless it follows that a stunned character is helpless????
No. A raven is black, and a raven is a bird, but that doesn't mean all birds are black, or that everything black is a bird.

A Stunned character can not take Actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm). A surprised character can take no actions during a surprise round, but he is far from Helpless.

Lostintransit
2007-06-02, 02:05 PM
If you're stunned you can't be coup de graced.

Everyone's told that. The rules are pretty clear. If you want to make it so that you can coup de grace a stunned person, go ahead, but the rules say no.

I'm not trying to change the rules as written... what I was trying to get as was:

"Does being stuned leave you at your opponents mercy? If so then as under Helpless you can be coupe de graced."

the confusion lies in the text under Helpless:

"A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponents mercy. *** Game text follows about DEX etc***"

(Bold added to bit Im not sure about)

The problem lies in the way people percieve completely helpless, I'm seeing as being unable to take any actions, but i'm thinking everyone else thinks its...well I'm not sure? possible i wasn't clear enough?:smallfrown:


Regards

Lost

EDIT: saw peoples posts after I'd finished typing, that dazed thing makes senses actually! but no wait a sec.... I'd still see dazed as being unable to defend yourself, you'd be all groggy and stuff!!!!

Darn it i think this is going to be a GM's call. Better talk to him about it....


Thanks eveyone for the replies!!!

Alleine
2007-06-02, 02:10 PM
Stunned ≠ idly standing there and letting someone kill you.

I'd say a stunned person has their senses a bit dulled, base motorfunctions still there and reflexes are in working, yet worsened, condition.

Ex: You stun me with whatever it is you have, I sit there a bit dazed, and when you pull out your sword to slice my through, my body runs through its self-preservation routine, throwing all effort into keeping the sword away from my vital spots.

Paralyzed: I stand there in mindless horror as I try to bring up my arms to stop the blade, but nothing is happening. All motorfunctions ceased and I die. Also, I probably fell over because of the lack of ability to auto-correct any balance issues I've got.

Think of stunned a you would a person punched in the nose, the nose being a sensitive place, a person is stunned when they get hit. It wears off rather quickly, like soon enough to get out of the way of a coup de grace.

PinkysBrain
2007-06-02, 02:11 PM
You can't make move actions while stunned but you don't fall prone either. Simply standing upright forces you to move, avoiding attacks forces you to move (which you can do, since you only have -2 to AC) ergo you can move (inside your square) while stunned.

Lostintransit
2007-06-02, 02:14 PM
Stunned ≠ idly standing there and letting someone kill you.

I'd say a stunned person has their senses a bit dulled, base motorfunctions still there and reflexes are in working, yet worsened, condition.

Ex: You stun me with whatever it is you have, I sit there a bit dazed, and when you pull out your sword to slice my through, my body runs through its self-preservation routine, throwing all effort into keeping the sword away from my vital spots.

Paralyzed: I stand there in mindless horror as I try to bring up my arms to stop the blade, but nothing is happening. All motorfunctions ceased and I die. Also, I probably fell over because of the lack of ability to auto-correct any balance issues I've got.

Think of stunned a you would a person punched in the nose, the nose being a sensitive place, a person is stunned when they get hit. It wears off rather quickly, like soon enough to get out of the way of a coup de grace.


Yeah, I'm starting to think that way, but it still doesn't feel right. ( I don't know why!!:smallfrown: )

Thanks for the reply!

Regards

Lost

Yuki Akuma
2007-06-02, 02:16 PM
It is not "the GM's call" (well, it is if he wants to house rule it). A Stunned character is not Helpless. He just isn't. You cannot coup de grace a Stunned character, because Stunned and Helpless are entirely unrelated.

How is this hard to understand? A Stunned character is reeling from a blow; he drops what he's holding because he's in a daze. It takes him six seconds to gather his faculties to keep on fighting. He isn't as agile as normal, but he's still able to defend himself.

Amiria
2007-06-02, 02:23 PM
Just an aside, when you are paralyzed then you are helpless. But you can still take purely mental actions, like using psionic powers or casting a silenced Dimension Door. So for some characters being paralyzed is less "helpless" than being stunned.

Stunned = no actions at all, but not helpless.

Paralyzed = only purely mental actions, but otherwise helpless.

Lostintransit
2007-06-02, 02:31 PM
It is not "the GM's call" (well, it is if he wants to house rule it). A Stunned character is not Helpless. He just isn't. You cannot coup de grace a Stunned character, because Stunned and Helpless are entirely unrelated.

How is this hard to understand? A Stunned character is reeling from a blow; he drops what he's holding because he's in a daze. It takes him six seconds to gather his faculties to keep on fighting. He isn't as agile as normal, but he's still able to defend himself.

It's not "Hard to understand" As I saw both sides before even posting the thread, I was trying to see what everone else thought.

It all comes down to how you percieve not taking actions. (Example you cannot, open or close a door, fight defensively, take total defense, pick up, draw or put away an item, most of which require the movement of the arms or body parts in some fashion.)

This at least to a part of me, seems to suggest that the body/person while stunned cannot make the neccesasary actions to defend itself. Now I realise by the LETTER of the rules (I.e. RAW) that unless their is a game defined term for "Or otherwise completely at an opponents mercy" that this bit of text is entirely subjective! which is what another part of me thinks of when thinking of stunned!

So yes I agree with everything all the other posters have said while at the same time entering into a lively debate on the nature of an undefined term in the rulebook!:smallbiggrin:

(A side note, the DM has already changed a number of rules mid game without notifing the players, and he takes the stance that rule 0 of "the GM is god" a little to seriously.....)



Regards

Lost

Citizen Joe
2007-06-02, 02:33 PM
The SRD details this very well linky (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm)

Lostintransit
2007-06-02, 02:34 PM
Right I'm off to discuss this losely defined term with my GM. But I'm pretty sure he will take the stance you lot did which is good!

thank you for all the replies it's nice to know that the people on these forums are so friendly!:smallsmile:


Regards

Lost

Yuki Akuma
2007-06-02, 03:11 PM
..But it isn't loosely defined...

There aren't two stances on this. It's splled out pretty well in the rulebooks what Stunned does and does not do.

Matthew
2007-06-02, 03:12 PM
Here's what the SRD says:


Stunned
A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

That's your lot. Nothing about being at your opponent's mercy, nothing about being helpless.

Yuki Akuma
2007-06-02, 03:18 PM
I think the main problem is this: you're reading between the lines. Stop that, it isn't helpful.

Citizen Joe
2007-06-02, 03:26 PM
I think part of the problem is that the first line of Helpless description includes some examples that can make you so. However, if you strip that out and just go to the specific conditions, they will each say whether or not you are also Helpless.

Citizen Joe
2007-06-02, 03:36 PM
I was just thinking how nasty that dust would be in an ambush situation. 5d4 rounds of free sneak attacks with no retalliation.

Fourth Tempter
2007-06-02, 03:44 PM
Right I'm off to discuss this losely defined term with my GM. But I'm pretty sure he will take the stance you lot did which is good!

thank you for all the replies it's nice to know that the people on these forums are so friendly!:smallsmile:


Regards

Lost

It is not loosely defined. It tells you precisely what it does. "Taking actions" refers to move, standard, full-round, et cetera actions in D&D; defending yourself does not consume actions.

Stunned inflicts penalties and forces you to drop what you are holding, as well as making you unable to take actions. This is not the same as Helpless, which is also clearly defined. Do not attempt to conflate the two.

Lostintransit
2007-06-02, 03:56 PM
I think the main problem is this: you're reading between the lines. Stop that, it isn't helpful.

Do you know whats funny? having returned after a small chat with my GM, he has decreeed it to be the way I originally read it, that stunned makes you helpless. He didn't even have a discussion on it, I asked if thats what it meant , he looked it up and went, yup thats what it does. He didn't have the uncertainty I did! Well i guess that makes it house ruled then! Well I'm now off to plan and make my assassain of death!

P.s thanks for the info though!



Regards

Lost

Fourth Tempter
2007-06-02, 04:01 PM
That is a terrible ruling, both balance-wise and interpretation-wise. There is no way to rationally derive it from the text of the Stunning condition. You may consider worrying about what other rules your DM may grossly misinterpret.

Yuki Akuma
2007-06-02, 04:01 PM
Monks just got a lot stronger.

Dark Tira
2007-06-02, 04:02 PM
Do you know whats funny? having returned after a small chat with my GM, he has decreeed it to be the way I originally read it, that stunned makes you helpless. He didn't even have a discussion on it, I asked if thats what it meant , he looked it up and went, yup thats what it does. He didn't have the uncertainty I did! Well i guess that makes it house ruled then! Well I'm now off to plan and make my assassain of death!

P.s thanks for the info though!



Regards

Lost

Well, I guess that's one, albeit insane, way of fixing the underpowered monk issue....

Lostintransit
2007-06-02, 04:10 PM
Well, I guess that's one, albeit insane, way of fixing the underpowered monk issue....

Why is it insane?

I can understand that its good, but insane, I've seen wacker!

Such as spears that stab your team mates even if they aren't standing in front of you when you attack!

Also free metamagic that doesn't cost levels for example, now that is insane!



Regards

Lost

(P.s. I personally don't agree with a number of things he's doing but I run my own game for a bunch of other people which is much more enjoyable, where everyone has alot of fun with lots of memorable events, that even now things that happened 10 months ago still get people going cooool!:smallcool:
The party in his campaign basically builds one shot characters for each session because as of yet no character has survived beyond 2 sessions.)

shuntsu
2007-06-02, 04:18 PM
Well isn't a coup de grace a full-round action?

If so, your build idea won't quite work as you intended, even with Stunned = Helpless.

Dark Tira
2007-06-02, 04:19 PM
It's insane because stun effects are balanced to not leave people helpless. Aside from player abuse it can also throw CRs out of wack. Heaven help the party who runs into a few mindflayers in that world.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-06-02, 04:25 PM
Well isn't a coup de grace a full-round action?

If so, your build idea won't quite work as you intended, even with Stunned = Helpless.
He's got a homebrew class that lets him turn his regular attacks into CdG's, as long as the opponent is helpless.

Also, I'd like to say that the interpretation of rules is, of course, the DM's right and responsibility, and he can do whatever the hell he wants for his game. Your DM, however, is still...I hesitate to say wrong, but that's what he is. All "stunned" does is make you lose a turn and take penalties to defense. You can't do anything on your normal initiative count for the round, but you can still defend yourself. Just not as well.

PinkysBrain
2007-06-02, 04:25 PM
What makes it overpowered? Fleshshiver is a mid level spell which stuns with no save and spells like blasphemy and holy word can do the same at higher level ... not to mention that all the spells which do allow a save vs stun are not balanced to effectively be a save or die.

Lostintransit
2007-06-02, 04:26 PM
Well isn't a coup de grace a full-round action?

If so, your build idea won't quite work as you intended, even with Stunned = Helpless.

The assassain class in this splatbook gets a number of Coup de graces per round equal to its number of melee strikes +1 as move equililent action, and depending on race the sneak attack can either be increased to d8's or you can make a number of free action coup de graces equal to 1+wis mod per day. Now thats insane!

Their are no mind flayers in this setting, it has alot of tough anti spell casting monsters and a couple of fighty monsters, a nasty selection of different demons/devils and your a very few of the regular Dnd monsters. I'm pretty sure there aren't any monster (without class levels )that have stun abilities!:smallbiggrin:



Regards

Lost

lord_khaine
2007-06-02, 04:27 PM
or stunning fist

Lostintransit
2007-06-02, 04:28 PM
He's got a homebrew class that lets him turn his regular attacks into CdG's, as long as the opponent is helpless.

Also, I'd like to say that the interpretation of rules is, of course, the DM's right and responsibility, and he can do whatever the hell he wants for his game. Your DM, however, is still...I hesitate to say wrong, but that's what he is. All "stunned" does is make you lose a turn and take penalties to defense. You can't do anything on your normal initiative count for the round, but you can still defend yourself. Just not as well.

It ain't homebrew its in an open license D20 setting book, the only books that work with it are the rewritten PHB, monster guide and campaign setting book. It's a nice setting but yes the GM is quite anoying!


Regards

Lost

Matthew
2007-06-02, 04:35 PM
What is the Setting, anyway?

Quincunx
2007-06-02, 07:33 PM
When you're stunned in real life (say you just opened a door into your skull), you couldn't take too many voluntary actions, but involuntary actions are still fine. I'm firing a guess out of nowhere here--some RPG/MMORPG stuns are more powerful than a real life stun, capable of stopping the stunned person taking ANY action just like D&D "helpless", and those are what is in your mind (and your DM's mind)--after all, D&D is an RPG like those, isn't it.

Wolf_Shade
2007-06-02, 08:50 PM
When you're stunned in real life (say you just opened a door into your skull), you couldn't take too many voluntary actions, but involuntary actions are still fine. I'm firing a guess out of nowhere here--some RPG/MMORPG stuns are more powerful than a real life stun, capable of stopping the stunned person taking ANY action just like D&D "helpless", and those are what is in your mind (and your DM's mind)--after all, D&D is an RPG like those, isn't it.

I was going to toss in similar 2c. If the character is stunned they may not be able to move when they want, but they might be stumbling or weaving. Essentially making them flat footed, but not technically "helpless". Still have to hit a moving target that kind of thing.

Arbitrarity
2007-06-02, 09:32 PM
Of course, if you can CdG people who can't move, what about...

Flat-footed? I mean, if you alk up to someone, can't you just slip a knife in them, and kill them? CdG!

Madness!

Townopolis
2007-06-02, 09:36 PM
Slitting someone's throat (for example) while they are stunned would require that you either a) hit them with an attack, crit, and roll good damage, or b) grab them by the hair and jerk their head back, thereby immobilizing their reeling form, before slitting their throat.

Either way, it would require a (very easy) attack roll or a (very easy) grapple check.

That is all.

Jarawara
2007-06-02, 09:56 PM
Lost's DM is making a seemingly logical decision. He's just not thought out the consequences of it yet (something I'd easy be accused of as well, as I am still learning the whole 3E system).

Imagine if you will, you're a high level fighter, and you're facing some unnamed opponent. You thrust-punch him to the face, stunning him, and in that moment of stun, you in one fluid move draw your sword and swing in the same motion, skewered him through the gut, for the kill. Sure looked like a Coup-de-gras to me, didn't it?

But if that unnamed nobody happened to be a high level fighter, he'd have twisted away from the blade, hand on his own weapon, drawing in time to clang metal to metal, maybe only taking a slash to the side, and then shook the haze from his eyes, and turned back on you for the classic mano-e-mano fight.

The DM was probably only thinking what would happen to the unnamed mook, not the high level fighter. He didn't see a problem with the PC getting multiple coup-de-grasies on a bunch of Orcs. Once he spends three hours statting up the high level party to take on Lost and his compatriots, only to have them fall in one round to a stun grenade and a splatbook, he'll quickly change that ruling.

Thrawn183
2007-06-02, 10:43 PM
I like the example of getting punched in the nose, but I'd take it one step further and say its like getting punched in the nose and having your nose broken. Yeah, you can keep moving and defend yourself against mortal blows from the greatsword of the giant green guy, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if you also dropped your own weapon to grab your face. I also wouldn't see you effectively communicating anything to your allies other than maybe, "Oh ****, this really hurts!" That describes to me someone who isn't running around (moving) fighting back (attacking) or communicating meaningfully (speaking) but at the same time isn't going to just roll over and die at the hands of... well... a cat.

Now, you get a few seconds to reorient yourself and try and fight past the pain... you could probably keep going as you usually would, unpleasant as it might be.

Stephen_E
2007-06-03, 01:25 AM
There is a feat in the Comp Advent IIRC that allows Coup de Graes as a Standard action.

I think of stunned like the effect you get from a good Groin shot. I remember as a kid at school someone trying to buly me and I kneed him hard in the groin. He staggered back a couple of feet and basically did nothing for 10 secs or so except look sick, hunch and stagger some. I'm pretty sure if I'd continued to attack him he would've made some halfhearted defensive actions, but other than that he was rather focused on his misery.

Stephen

Ninja Chocobo
2007-06-03, 01:34 AM
It ain't homebrew its in an open license D20 setting book, the only books that work with it are the rewritten PHB, monster guide and campaign setting book. It's a nice setting but yes the GM is quite anoying!


Regards

Lost

What book is this? I've never heard of a class that makes Coup de Graces like iterative attacks, let alone increases sneak attack dice size.
Perhaps the name of the setting would explain it.

Skyserpent
2007-06-03, 07:44 PM
*sigh* Reading this thread made me die a little inside...

Lostintransit
2007-06-04, 04:39 AM
*sigh* Reading this thread made me die a little inside...

I wonder why? Also after playing in the game I think everyone realised how crazy it was if stunned allowed CDG so we quickly changed it. (Luckly i had a good fighter on standby)

But it was amazingly funny to chuck a bag at the BBEG and then walts over and CDG his con to -36!!:smallbiggrin:



Regards

Lost

JungeonJeff
2007-06-04, 05:12 AM
I wonder why? Also after playing in the game I think everyone realised how crazy it was if stunned allowed CDG so we quickly changed it. (Luckly i had a good fighter on standby)

But it was amazingly funny to chuck a bag at the BBEG and then walts over and CDG his con to -36!!:smallbiggrin:



Regards

Lost

I bet it wasnt for the GM who used time to build and balance, as well as descibe the end enqounter, and then getting it snaped in two by a bad rule'ing...:smallconfused:

Skyserpent
2007-06-04, 05:17 AM
Heh, well I commend you Lostintransit, you are decidedly happy and nonplussed about this whole thing. I like that. Ye got moxy kid.

Dairun Cates
2007-06-05, 04:37 AM
I know this has been answered to death, but I couldn't resist a fun analogy here.

So let's say you get hit in a pressure point really hard (family jewels, solar plexis, etc). General consesus on what most people will do in this situation.

1. The eyes roll back from pain.
2. For most cases, the person will drop anything they're holding from pain.
3. The person, now hopefully with empty hands grabs or cradles the effected area.
4. The person is in too much pain to make major movements.
5. The person is incapable of rational thought.
6. The person cries like a whiny little girl while his adventuring buddies tell him to walk it off.

This covers just about everything that stunned does without insinuating a target that will let you cut their throat. The only thing is doesn't cover is no speech which should be obvious if you think about it. It's hard to communicate when you're screaming, crying, or letting out the longest string of curse words known to man.

With stun powder, I just assume the mace scenario and follow similar action as if mace was sprayed in your eyes. Same actions really minus the eye rolling in the back of your head part.

Draz74
2007-06-05, 02:13 PM
I think the whole issue was really just the difference between "taking action" in game terms and "taking action" in non-game "fluff" terms.

There are a few things your character can do in D&D that don't count as an "action," even a free action.

Defending oneself is one of them. So stunned characters can defend themselves, even though they can't perform any "action" as the game defines actions.