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purplearcanist
2007-06-02, 10:54 PM
Please post what you think is the best level 20 gestalt build and explain why you think it is the best.

You can only use the core rulebooks (to make it more challenging:smallwink: ).

Rama_Lei
2007-06-02, 10:58 PM
Wizard/Druid.
Unstopable animal forms? Check
Full casting? Check.

TheOOB
2007-06-02, 11:43 PM
Wizard/Cleric is better, in gestalt if you want to be able to fight in melee, you must have a full BAB. Druids don't get divine power, thus they can't be effective melee fighters in gestalt.

If you can get past the low hit die, a wizard/archivist may very well be the most powerful gestalt character in the game, with access to virtually ever spell in the game, and all of them are Int based. The artifacer(spelling?) shows promise as well.

GryffonDurime
2007-06-02, 11:48 PM
Using only the Core material, I'd say Druid/Cleric with a few fun domains like Magic and Trickery.

The synergy is just brutal, and you even get a handful of goodies typically reserved for the arcane crowd.

Outside of Core, I'd say something like a Wizard/Archivist built with the Incantatrix to abuse Metamagic Effect and Persist Spell.

purplearcanist
2007-06-02, 11:53 PM
I said core only.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-06-02, 11:57 PM
I said core only.

And you got the most powerful builds.

Cleric//Druid
Wizard//Cleric
Wizard//Druid

Anything else will be weaker. Go outside of core and you have all sorts of new possibilities.

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-03, 12:01 AM
Wizard/Archmage/Loremaster on one side.

On the other it depends. Either Druid or Cleric. Ranger is great on 1 side of any gestalt.

Combine it with wizard and you get d8 HD, all good saves, full BAB, 6+Int skills per level, an animal companion, and ranger spells.

Ramza00
2007-06-03, 12:01 AM
we start at lvl 20 or we progress and end at lvl 20 big difference. At lvl 20 you have access to shapechange via wizard, cleric, and druid, thus druid wildshape is almost a non issue.

(A rod of extend doubles the duration of shapechange, if you have a caster level of 25 (20+Ioun Stone+Beads of Karma) your shapechange will last a total of 500 minutes or 8 hours and 20 mins, thus with 3 castings of the spell and using all of the rod of extend it will last all day.

Solo
2007-06-03, 01:57 AM
Would it be possible to have a Wizard//Sorcerer?

That would be fun. Ultimate arcane power and all.

Green Bean
2007-06-03, 02:02 AM
Would it be possible to have a Wizard//Sorcerer?

That would be fun. Ultimate arcane power and all.

You could, but there'd be very little synergy. The idea is to pick two classes that are different enough to gain bonuses, but similar enough that you don't have MAD. Essentially, you'd be able to cast a metric ton of spells, but you'd only have a d6 for HP, and need to cover two casting stats.

TheOOB
2007-06-03, 12:36 PM
You also need to cover your weaknesses in gestalt. In gestalt games you tend to fight higher level monsters because you are more powerful, yet at the same time many elements of your power are no better then a non-gestalt character.

A few truths about gestalt:

-You need full BAB if you plan on making attacks often.
-Save DCs are higher so a poor save is dangerous, having two poor saves is deadly.
-Attacks do more damage so having a d4 hp is deadly, and a d6 is really dangerous. You should have d10 or d12 if you plan on frontlining at all.

Damionte
2007-06-03, 12:50 PM
None of those "truths" seem to have anything to do with being getsalt. They're just general rules for any front line character. If you're going to be in the front line yes ofcourse you want a good BAB and good hit points.

Anyway it was such a simple question this thread was essentially over 4-5 posts into it.

weenie
2007-06-03, 12:51 PM
You could, but there'd be very little synergy. The idea is to pick two classes that are different enough to gain bonuses, but similar enough that you don't have MAD. Essentially, you'd be able to cast a metric ton of spells, but you'd only have a d6 for HP, and need to cover two casting stats.

You probably ment a d4. And another problem would be having two weak saves.

Wouldn't a sorcerer/cleric be better than a wizard/cleric? You get more spells per day and a high cha score helps with turning undead checks.

ghost_warlock
2007-06-03, 12:52 PM
Wizard/Cleric is better, in gestalt if you want to be able to fight in melee, you must have a full BAB. Druids don't get divine power, thus they can't be effective melee fighters in gestalt.
Um, clerics don't have full BAB, either. And I'd be willing to bet that some wildshape forms would outshine divine power. Plus, no problems with the duration expiring.

Straying from Core-only, if you go druid/wizard until 5th, then go druid/geomancer until 15th followed by <some other wizard-substitute PrC> for 5 levels, you'll have full spellcasting for both, plus ignore all arcane spell failure, plus wildshape + spellcasting via Natural Spell, plus a few tasty other treats from the PrCs. The only thing the wizard/cleric build would have over this would be Divine Metamagic cheese.

brian c
2007-06-03, 01:06 PM
I'm aware that it's not the "most powerful" but a Sorcerer//Paladin has nice Cha synergy, full BAB, two good saves (fort and will) and Divine Grace, the mount, d10 HD and full proficiencies. Only problem is arcane spell failure (and slight MAD with cha/str/con/dex) but sorcerers don't know a whole lot of spells anyway so just get ones with no somatic components and you're fine.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-03, 01:30 PM
Wizard//Rogue, but only because I like Sneak-Attacking my rays.

Seffbasilisk
2007-06-03, 01:43 PM
Sorcerer/Monk.

If you dip out of core for a single feat you can tie the monk's +'s to Cha instead of Wis. Then maybe dip Paladin to get Cha to saves, and a few other places to get Cha to everything.

Grab some Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows and you can start to get nasty.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-06-03, 02:33 PM
Druid 15/Ecclesiarch 5/Cleric 20.

Then for Ecclesiarch take the ability that gives you +1 caster level at every level but add them to the cleric side and you get caster level 25 with 9th level spells.

Infact you can replace a few of those 15 druid levels with something more useful like rogue.

Fighter/Rogue feint master can be awesome even if it isn't very powerful.

Gestalt bard to make a bard that's actually useful at other stuff.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-03, 04:32 PM
Cleric//Druid. It's possible to get Full BAB through Righteous Might. And with Trickery/Magic, you've got limited access to arcane magic. That is pretty much the most powerful gestalt build you can get. Once a battle starts, just gate in a Solar/Balor based on alignment and go to town.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-06-03, 04:40 PM
Yeah, Druid//Cleric easily overwhelms any other core gestalt. Wizard//Druid and Wizard//Cleric sound nice, but there's no stat synergy so it isn't nearly as powerful unless, for some reason, your DM gave you a nonsensically high point buy and lots of tomes. Druid//Cleric only requires wisdom and Natural Spell to be unbeatable. This combo only gets better when you start allowing non-core material. Divine metamagics will make this build mega deadly.

skyclad
2007-06-03, 04:41 PM
I'm not sure how gestalt work but how about wizard 3/mystic theurge 17//cleric 3/mystic theurge 17?

The_Snark
2007-06-03, 04:43 PM
Cleric/druid. Wild Shape combined with two sets of Wisdom-based full casting, which includes Divine Power for full BAB. HD is only a d8, but Divine Power and healing spells should cover that up, and the only weak save is Reflex, which is usually the least important of the three spells. Elemental wild shapes even get the elemental's feats, which means you don't have to invest in many combat-oriented feats

You could take a 1-level dip into Monk for Wisdom bonus to AC, or you could just go with +5 wild dragonhide full plate.

Turcano
2007-06-03, 04:53 PM
None of those "truths" seem to have anything to do with being getsalt. They're just general rules for any front line character. If you're going to be in the front line yes ofcourse you want a good BAB and good hit points.

Anyway it was such a simple question this thread was essentially over 4-5 posts into it.

The point is that you should improve as many stats as possible with your selection of gestalt classes. Gestalt is a high-powered variant, and therefore has high-powered encounters; if you're not better than you would be if you chose a single class, you're going to be much more vulnerable than your compatriots (the wizard//sorcerer build is particularly bad, as you have no improvement in anything except an expanded number of spell slots).

JaronK
2007-06-03, 04:59 PM
The strongest core gestalt character, without question, is Cleric 19/Monk 1//Druid 20.

Incredible casting ability, huge melee abilities (and yes, you can use unarmed strikes to make iterative attacks in Wild Shape form in addition to your natural attacks, though those do drop to -5 to hit and 1/2 strength), incredible flexibility, the works. Grave Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) to boost your damage (which will also go up from being large) and of course Natural Spell.

Added bonus to this build: you only need Con and Wis to make it work great.

JaronK

JaronK
2007-06-03, 05:01 PM
I'm not sure how gestalt work but how about wizard 3/mystic theurge 17//cleric 3/mystic theurge 17?

That doesn't even make sense. A: Mystic Theurge is illegal in gestalt, B: You can't take the same class on two sides, C: Even if you could, you progess at the faster rate for casting, so the end of that build would be the same as Wizard 20//Cleric 20, and D: Mystic Theurge is only 10 levels long.

JaronK

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-03, 05:25 PM
That doesn't even make sense. A: Mystic Theurge is illegal in gestalt, B: You can't take the same class on two sides, C: Even if you could, you progess at the faster rate for casting, so the end of that build would be the same as Wizard 20//Cleric 20, and D: Mystic Theurge is only 10 levels long.

JaronK

GRR. People really, really need to actually read the gestalt rules. They do not prohibit dual progression prestige classes. The gestalt rules recommend that DMs prohibit them but RAW they are allowed.

Now MT on both sides is worthless. But MT on one side and wizard on the other side gets you an extra 10 CL's.

And you can't progress 2 prestige classes at once.

JaronK
2007-06-03, 05:28 PM
GRR. People really, really need to actually read the gestalt rules. They do not prohibit dual progression prestige classes. The gestalt rules recommend that DMs prohibit them but RAW they are allowed.

Now MT on both sides is worthless. But MT on one side and wizard on the other side gets you an extra 10 CL's.

And you can't progress 2 prestige classes at once.


I've read them over many times, and most of the games I play are Gestalt. Gestalt is a varient system, with a strong suggestion not to allow doubly classes. That's close enough to illegal... it's telling you flat out that you're not intended to use double classes.

JaronK

Damionte
2007-06-03, 05:33 PM
That doesn't even make sense. A: Mystic Theurge is illegal in gestalt, B: You can't take the same class on two sides, C: Even if you could, you progess at the faster rate for casting, so the end of that build would be the same as Wizard 20//Cleric 20, and D: Mystic Theurge is only 10 levels long.

JaronK

It's not actually illegal. It's simply frowned apun. They didn't say you coulnd't, they said you should't as it would be powerful. It's a use at your own risk suggestion. But they didn't say NO.

And he's right you can't take the two prestige classes at the same time. Though you can take one and a base class at the same level. Meaning you could alternate on both sides.

Rough Example:
Fighter / Sorc
Kensai / Sorc
Fighter / Arcane Archer
Kensai / Sorc
Fighter / Arcane Archer

That sort of thing.

EDIT:
That's what I get for trying to post while at work. By time I wrote a bit... worked a bit... wrote a bit. The question had been answered. :)

Orzel
2007-06-03, 05:35 PM
Most powerful: Druid//Cleric


Best non-cheesed build: Druid//Ranger Druid with full BAB, 3 good saves, few archery feats, Stealth skills, Track, and 6+ skill points. Where do I sign?

Damionte
2007-06-03, 05:43 PM
We've kinda burned the "what's the most powerful" concept into the ground a million times now.

Assuming you had to go gestalt AND assuming you HAD to use just core. PHB-I / DMG-I / MM-I. What would you actually play?

For me.

Maybe a Monk/Cleric or Monk/Sorc. or Fighter-Monk/Cleric. Or the same thing with Druid isntead. I'm not a huge fan of the druid though. More a flavor thing than anything else.

Or Ranger/Druid. I'd just keep it simple and play it out.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-03, 05:51 PM
You could take a 1-level dip into Monk for Wisdom bonus to AC

Or not waste the level for a Monk's Belt.

As for gestalt and forced into Core?

Cleric//Druid.

Core-Only is broken as is, making it gestalt only makes it alittle more broken than normal.

JaronK
2007-06-03, 05:52 PM
Or not waste the level for a Monk's Belt.

As for gestalt and forced into Core?

Cleric//Druid.

Core-Only is broken as is, making it gestalt only makes it alittle more broken than normal.

You can't, in core, have a monk's belt while Wild Shaped in many forms, without pulling the "I take stuff off, wild shape, and put stuff back on" manuever, which many DMs frown upon. Hence the monk level.

JaronK

Damionte
2007-06-03, 06:03 PM
As academic discusions go this one is kinda silly. If we're core only why are we using gestalt rules?

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-03, 06:25 PM
You can't, in core, have a monk's belt while Wild Shaped in many forms, without pulling the "I take stuff off, wild shape, and put stuff back on" manuever, which many DMs frown upon. Hence the monk level.

JaronK

Honestly, who cares when you ask for the most powerful gestalt build? Obviously using it is a bad idea, so why not go all the way and get a Monk's Belt?

goat
2007-06-03, 06:31 PM
Well, if I could go a bit non-core, I think a Wizard//Rogue/Swashbuckler could be entertaining.

greenknight
2007-06-03, 06:55 PM
I think a Rogue 11 / Assassin 9 / Druid 20 might be interesting in Core Only, provided most of your foes aren't immune to sneak attacks. Poison + 11d6 sneak attack damage combines well with the multiple attacks per round you can get through Wild Shape. Your Animal Companion gives you a flanking bonus, or you can just summon nature's ally to get it, and you can boost your ability scores through Wild Shape (or Shapechange). It does require good Intelligence and Wisdom, but just have Intelligence at 14+ and concentrate on Wisdom and it should work.

EntilZha
2007-06-03, 07:26 PM
Going non-core, I thought of a Sorcerer/Warlock Gestalt.

Advantages
If you're on a point budget at chargen, you have only one main stat to worry about, i.e. Charisma.

The ability to throw eldritch blasts at will frees up some of your sorcerer spell slots for utility spells.

Slightly better Hit Die (d6), along with the warlock's Damage Resistance, Energy Resistance, and Fiendish Resilience helps the character's survivability.

Warlock has better BAB progression.

More Charisma based skills to take advantage of.

Disadvantages
Still only one good save

Though the Warlock is proficient with light armor, you still have to worry about the ASF chance with your Sorcerer Class.

Alignment restrictions--your character must be any evil or chaotic alignment.

Number of skill points doesn't improve.

I find the idea intriguing, anyway.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-06-03, 10:42 PM
If I'm not cheesing or don't have a particular build in mind, I like the rogue//fighter from core. I don't get any of the spellcasting that "wins", but I'm pretty great in my related fields of kick-assery. It's basically a super durable rogue that can do lots of weird tricks or a highly competent fighter with lots of skills and an extreme damage output. A lovable combination.

geek_2049
2007-06-05, 06:02 AM
Wizard10/Thaumaturgist5/Archmage5/Drd20

Thaumaturgist synergizes with druid and wizard.

KoDT69
2007-06-05, 06:23 AM
Fighter // Monk
Hands down this is the most powerful gestalt character in core. You get a bunch of feats and you get to run fast...
Oh wait, nevermind, this build would suck :smallbiggrin:

Commoner // Aristocrat
This one might be weaker... :smalltongue:

Jimp
2007-06-05, 06:25 AM
Commoner // Aristocrat
This one might be weaker... :smalltongue:
Nope, they'll be able to focus more on skill points. Put skill points into UMD and BAM they're more useful already.

Turcano
2007-06-05, 03:21 PM
Wizard10/Thaumaturgist5/Archmage5/Drd20

Thaumaturgist synergizes with druid and wizard.

You might have to make that Wizard 10/Thaumaturgist 5/Archmage 5//Cleric 20;you need to be able to cast lesser planar ally to qualify for thaumaturgist, and that's a cleric spell (unless you're able to research it as a druid).

Dr. Weasel
2007-06-05, 03:33 PM
Since this thread already essentially ended, I thought I might throw out a couple gestalt questions-

"Multiclass" Prestige classes and feats are usually banned, but if they only affect one side of the character (for instance Duskblade 5/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Wizard 9//Swashbuckler 6/Rogue 5/Swashbuckler 9 with the Daring Outlaw(?) Feat) would they be legal?

Also, do Human and Half-Elves gain one favored class per side or do they only get whichever of their classes has the most levels as a favored class?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-05, 04:33 PM
Only using DMG, PHB and Hypertext SRD document for the Clericist and Domain wizard variants:

Clericist -5, 2 Levels of Monk ((Wisdom AC bonus or Armored Spellcasting option Mithral Breastplate), Evasion and a lot of skill points, Wisdom synergy and level 9 spells in both classes)), Thaum -5 and Loremaster -8 with either Druid - 20 (or Druid 16 with Hieriophant -4).

or

Druid - 20 with Clericist -3, wizard -3, Mystic Theurge - 10 and 4 levels to dip into Thaumaturgist, ACM, Loremaster depending and subtracting 1 - 2 monk levels since it since it isn't prohibited.

or

Paladin - 2, Battle Sorcerer -18 (Divine Grace, D8, No ASF in light armor plus can pick spells from prohibited schools) and Domain wizard -5, ACM -5 and Loremaster or Red Wizard - 10
Druid -

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-06-05, 07:06 PM
A lot of DM's will ignore the "no half and half classes" rule simply because, despite how abusable that sounds in theory, in practice it's not actually very good at all. An eldritch knight/thaumaturgist is a rather poor combination, for instance, though it's illegal because of supposedly raising a character in two areas because stuff like caster level and BAB will only raise by the highest attained of your two classes, and these "half" classes are notorious for being weaker then getting one side or another instead. Paladins and rangers are sort of half classes. A paladin or ranger isn't nearly as good as a cleric//fighter or a druid//fighter, and a paladin//ranger is laughable compared to those two I just mentioned in, oh, every field of supposed expertise the paladin//ranger would have.

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-05, 07:18 PM
The reason for the recommendation is to stop stuff like :
Wiz 13/Archmage 5/ Loremaster 2 // Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/ Cleric 7

Casts as a level 30 wizard, level 20 cleric at level 20.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-06-05, 07:55 PM
But according to the progression rules, that would still cast like a level 20 wizard. Your caster level would be the highest possible given a straight single line through the levels, ie the wizard side only. The rules are a little dizzying, but that seems to be what "Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class." (from the SRD) would say about caster level.

Jack Mann
2007-06-05, 08:06 PM
Don't think so, Tippy. Wizard spellcasting is a class feature. If you take two classes that increase the same class feature on both sides, it simply accrues at the faster rate.

The problem is that you can go Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Loremaster 6/Archmage 1//Cleric 3/Fighter 10/Cleric 7. Replace fighter with some other, better class if you go outside of core. You get most of the good benefits from cleric and wizard, better BAB when you're not under Divine Power, and the class features of the fighter class.

That's where it becomes abusable.

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-05, 08:11 PM
But according to the progression rules, that would still cast like a level 20 wizard. Your caster level would be the highest possible given a straight single line through the levels, ie the wizard side only. The rules are a little dizzying, but that seems to be what "Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class." (from the SRD) would say about caster level.

No.

They are different class features. They stack.


Spells

A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizardís spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizardís Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good nightís sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.


Spells per Day

When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Damionte
2007-06-05, 08:15 PM
Your spell progression cater level can't be higher than your character lvl or HD. Even though you may be a gestalt 5/5 yo're still just a lvl 5 or HD 5 character. thus your progession spell caster level can't be higher than 5. Your "effective" caster level can be higher than your character lvl but not your actual caster lvl.

They don't stack they overlap. Kinda like damage reduction. Now had your caster lvl been less than your character lvl I for one would let you catch up that way.

Any "extra" caster lvl's you may have picked up while you were capped out would be wasted though.

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-05, 08:18 PM
Your spell progression cater level can't be higher than your character lvl or HD. Even though you may be a gestalt 5/5 yo're still just a lvl 5 or HD 5 character. thus your progession spell caster level can't be higher than 5. Your "effective" caster level can be higher than your character lvl but not your actual caster lvl.

They don't stack they overlap. Kinda like damage reduction. Now had your caster lvl been less than your character lvl I for one would let you catch up that way.

Any "extra" caster lvl's you may have picked up while you were capped out would be wasted though.

Give me a page reference or link.

Zincorium
2007-06-05, 08:27 PM
Give me a page reference or link.


I think you're just being unreasonably stubborn here.

Gestalt is a very poorly detailed variant system. It outright REQUIRES the interpretation of a competent human DM to work at all.

Insisting that using Mystic Thuerge gives you a two for one deal, when it's advised to specifically not use that PrC or any like it, is not what the rules say, what the rules hint at, or what could be reasonably expected as the intention of those rules that are there.


Also, as far as the 'point out a rule that says I can't' argument, point out a rule that says I can't start with divine rank or 12 arms as a human. Right, there isn't one. You would have to get your DM to specifically allow it, and 99% of the time they won't. A lot of third edition is like that, you can't debate the RAW, which is what you're trying to do, if there is no RAW that specifically addresses the situation.

Damionte
2007-06-05, 08:35 PM
Dang it, I'm at work, no time to go looking for that line of text, BUT the gestalt rules themselves take this into account.

If you gain the same class ability or power onboth sides you don't get it twice, you only get it once, and you get the better of the two.

Base Attack Bonus
Class Abilities
Saving Throws

they all follow the same formulae. If you took a fighter and a ranger you'd only get 1 point of base attack bonus. You'd only get the better of the two characters saving throws at that level. Same thing for your spell casting.

You take the better progression, not BOTH

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-05, 08:36 PM
I think you're just being unreasonably stubborn here.

Gestalt is a very poorly detailed variant system. It outright REQUIRES the interpretation of a competent human DM to work at all.

Insisting that using Mystic Thuerge gives you a two for one deal, when it's advised to specifically not use that PrC or any like it, is not what the rules say, what the rules hint at, or what could be reasonably expected as the intention of those rules that are there.


Also, as far as the 'point out a rule that says I can't' argument, point out a rule that says I can't start with divine rank or 12 arms as a human. Right, there isn't one. You would have to get your DM to specifically allow it, and 99% of the time they won't. A lot of third edition is like that, you can't debate the RAW, which is what you're trying to do, if there is no RAW that specifically addresses the situation.

I'm not being unreasonable. And I'm curious. I don't remember that rule and I've never had anyone mention it in any debate. It would be interesting to see.

I never said that doing that with MT was advisable or something that a DM should allow, just that Gestalt+ Core RAW , it works.

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-05, 08:42 PM
Dang it, I'm at work, no time to go looking for that line of text, BUT the gestalt rules themselves take this into account.

If you gain the same class ability or power onboth sides you don't get it twice, you only get it once, and you get the better of the two.

Base Attack Bonus
Class Abilities
Saving Throws

they all follow the same formulae. If you took a fighter and a ranger you'd only get 1 point of base attack bonus. You'd only get the better of the two characters saving throws at that level. Same thing for your spell casting.

You take the better progression, not BOTH

No. They are different progressions.

Different features that have different effects and do different things.

It doesn't matter RAW that these stack in a broken way.

One feature of the wizard side is that you cast spells based on your wizard level.

A feature of MT is that your wizard spell casting is increased (for some purposes) by your MT levels.

Damionte
2007-06-05, 08:44 PM
I can't honestly remember where I read that rule about actual caster lvl not being able to go above character lvl. May have been in an errata or FAQ or something, or a footnote in one of the splat books. I really don't remember.

I think it was in a sidebar somewhere. Not being able to remember is bugging the hell out of me.

EDITING TO REPLY TO ABOVE POST WHICH CAME WHILE I WAS TYPING.

Are you on crack !

If both classes you chose on your gestalt build increase your wizard level then they are doing the exact same thing. So you don't get both increases. Plan your build out so you don't take those classes at the same time.

Or... follow my rule above for which.. I ... cvan't remember the source. :)

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-05, 08:48 PM
I can't honestly remember where I read that rule about actual caster lvl not being able to go above character lvl. May have been in an errata or FAQ or something, or a footnote in one of the splat books. I really don't remember.

I think it was in a sidebar somewhere. Not being able to remember is bugging the hell out of me.

It's not in any Errata, or anywhere in the core books or SRD.

And the FAQ isn't RAW. Half the time it is blatantly incorrect on rules questions (even if its responses happen to make sense and be good houserules)

Zincorium
2007-06-05, 08:50 PM
I'm not being unreasonable. And I'm curious. I don't remember that rule and I've never had anyone mention it in any debate. It would be interesting to see.

I never said that doing that with MT was advisable or something that a DM should allow, just that Gestalt+ Core RAW , it works.

RAW, with Gestalt, you cannot have wizard//wizard as your class, so there's no explanation for what would happen. HOWEVER.

Given the example used for every other gestalt dual-caster, you would have two complete wizard progressions going on at the same time, so a cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 5//wizard 10 would, with a very generous interpretation, have the casting ability of a 10th level cleric, a 10th level wizard, and another 10th level wizard. This isn't spelled out, because it's a situation the designers obviously intended to avoid by suggesting the ban of mystic theurge, but it follows the general idea that is demonstrated.

What you were suggesting is very much like the Green Star Adept idea where it's believed that you add 15 caster levels over a 10 level Prc.

And really, what I meant by being unreasonably stubborn is that you're taking an idea that's specifically listed as being something you shouldn't do, and then continuing asking for proof. No proof exists because they assume people will take the hint and not go there.

Damionte
2007-06-05, 08:56 PM
RAW, with Gestalt, you cannot have wizard//wizard as your class, so there's no explanation for what would happen. HOWEVER.

Given the example used for every other gestalt dual-caster, you would have two complete wizard progressions going on at the same time, so a cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 5//wizard 10 would, with a very generous interpretation, have the casting ability of a 10th level cleric, a 10th level wizard, and another 10th level wizard. This isn't spelled out, because it's a situation the designers obviously intended to avoid by suggesting the ban of mystic theurge, but it follows the general idea that is demonstrated.

What you were suggesting is very much like the Green Star Adept idea where it's believed that you add 15 caster levels over a 10 level Prc.

And really, what I meant by being unreasonably stubborn is that you're taking an idea that's specifically listed as being something you shouldn't do, and then continuing asking for proof. No proof exists because they assume people will take the hint and not go there.


That's true the only specific example they have is that seperate spell casting progressions should be kept "seperate". soif as you say Tripp the two are not linked but are seperate class abilities then yes you would track them seperately.

In the end though this whole silly discussion was for YOUR game. So run it the way YOU want.

Turcano
2007-06-05, 08:57 PM
No. They are different progressions.

Different features that have different effects and do different things.

It doesn't matter RAW that these stack in a broken way.

One feature of the wizard side is that you cast spells based on your wizard level.

A feature of MT is that your wizard spell casting is increased (for some purposes) by your MT levels.

That's quite a stretch to say that progression in wizard (or any other caster, for that matter) spell levels from the base class is different than that from a prestige class. Your entire argument appears to be based on the "gain[s] a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to" clause, which is overly pedantic; there is no mechanical difference between spell levels gained through base classes and those gained through prestige classes, although you are welcome to try to uncover one if you feel differently.

Damionte
2007-06-05, 08:58 PM
I do agree with you on one point though. I have no problems allowing the dual function classes into a gestault build. If I'm allowing the players to be gestalt is because i WANT them to be more powerful than a standard character. Your spell progession ideas though are too outside the mechanics of the game.

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-05, 09:01 PM
RAW, with Gestalt, you cannot have wizard//wizard as your class, so there's no explanation for what would happen. HOWEVER.

Actually there is. If you can meet the pre requisites for a PrC with stuff from both sides of a gestalt (which you can do) then the MT levels would stack with what gave you the arcane casting, the wizard side of your gestalt.


Given the example used for every other gestalt dual-caster, you would have two complete wizard progressions going on at the same time, so a cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 5//wizard 10 would, with a very generous interpretation, have the casting ability of a 10th level cleric, a 10th level wizard, and another 10th level wizard. This isn't spelled out, because it's a situation the designers obviously intended to avoid by suggesting the ban of mystic theurge, but it follows the general idea that is demonstrated.


And really, what I meant by being unreasonably stubborn is that you're taking an idea that's specifically listed as being something you shouldn't do, and then continuing asking for proof. No proof exists because they assume people will take the hint and not go there.

I'm not being particularly stubborn.

I don't think any DM should allow it, and if they did I wouldn't (most likely) apply to join the game. I wouldn't allow it either.

That doesn't matter at all in how the RAW is written. Someone else said that you couldn't do what I was suggesting. That it was against the RAW. No one has shown any proof of taht.

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-05, 09:05 PM
That's quite a stretch to say that progression in wizard (or any other caster, for that matter) spell levels from the base class is different than that from a prestige class. Your entire argument appears to be based on the "gain[s] a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to" clause, which is overly pedantic; there is no mechanical difference between spell levels gained through base classes and those gained through prestige classes, although you are welcome to try to uncover one if you feel differently.

It doesn't matter that there is no mechanical difference in the end effect. What matters is that they are different class features.


Class Features

A gestalt character gains the class features of both classes. A 1st-level gestalt rogue/cleric, for example, gets sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, 1st-level cleric spells, and the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Class- and ability-based restrictions (such as arcane spell failure chance and a druidís prohibition on wearing metal armor) apply normally to a gestalt character, no matter what the other class is.

A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few caveats apply, however.

* Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

They are different class features. They stack.

Damionte
2007-06-05, 09:13 PM
It doesn't say they STACK, it says you get it at the faster rate. meaning whichever class get's it first. For instance if this were Evasion and you were a rogue/monk you'd get evasion from the rogue first. You wouldn't get it again from the monk.

It doesn't say anythign about them stacking.

As GM's our responsibility is suposed to be towards game balance. Your idea is clearly broken. It would be different if we could see your example and agree that it's broken then house rule around it.We don't even agree with your basic interpretation of the rule. In such a case you will see the vast majority of GM err on the side of caution and game balance.

You sir are not ready. I'd love to have you as a player since you think outside the box but you're not yet ready to run a table.

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-05, 09:23 PM
It doesn't say they STACK, it says you get it at the faster rate. meaning whichever class get's it first. For instance if this were Evasion and you were a rogue/monk you'd get evasion from the rogue first. You wouldn't get it again from the monk.

It doesn't say anythign about them stacking.

You are looking at the wrong part of the passage


A gestalt character gains the class features of both classes


As GM's our responsibility is suposed to be towards game balance. Your idea is clearly broken. It would be different if we could see your example and agree that it's broken then house rule around it.We don't even agree with your basic interpretation of the rule. In such a case you will see the vast majority of GM err on the side of caution and game balance.

It is quite clear how the RAW interact.

I say that it is broken, I fully believe it to be. I houserule it away. And the GMs' responsibility is to everyone having fun, balance should be chucked out the window if it interferes with that goal.


You sir are not ready. I'd love to have you as a player since you think outside the box but you're not yet ready to run a table.

Thanks for the insult.

Don't ever assume that I use or allow half the stuff that I mention in posts. RAW is broken, I chuck a lot of it. I play what amounts to free form fairly often.

I have been DMing multiple campaigns at the same time in multiple settings since 3.5 has been around. I DM D&D for around 10 hours a week, and play it for another 3-5

And you would hate me as a player. Believe me.

Damionte
2007-06-05, 09:26 PM
I oppologise for the insult. I was just stunned by your read on this. Perhaps if we got back on subject. We've kinda lost the point of this thread.

Actually... what was the point of this thread?

Fourth Tempter
2007-06-05, 09:29 PM
You sir are not ready. I'd love to have you as a player since you think outside the box but you're not yet ready to run a table.

I am not sure why you feel why your judgement of someone's DMing capabilities is particularily relevant (or why you feel the need to use such a tone), and I am similarily confused by your basing this on how they interpret the rules, not how they implement them. If someone says something should be houseruled away, they are like to do so when they make the house rules.

However--you are wrong about the rules, Tippy. You gain spells as if you had gained a wizard level. That means you are effectively gaining a wizard level on either side, as regards spells--"wizard//wizard". That does not "stack".

JaronK
2007-06-05, 09:29 PM
It doesn't work like that. MT says you gain spellcasting as though you had gained a level of Wizard. Wizard gives you spellcasting as though you had gained a level of Wizard too. That's the same thing, on both sides, hence they don't stack.

JaronK

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-05, 09:30 PM
Why?

Gestalt says different features stack.

They are different features, just like a +2 enhancement bonus is a different feature when compared to a +2 sacred bonus.

RAW doesn't care about how broken that is.

You need to divorce yourself from the idea that the RAW has to be balanced. Admit that it is utterly broken and needs heavy modification.

Or good players who won't break it in game.

JaronK
2007-06-05, 09:32 PM
Why?

Gestalt says different features stack.

They are different features, just like a +2 enhancement bonus is a different feature when compared to a +2 sacred bonus.

RAW doesn't care about how broken that is.

You need to divorce yourself from the idea that the RAW has to be balanced. Admit that it is utterly broken and needs heavy modification.

Or good players who won't break it in game.

Read MT again Tippy. It says you gain spells as though you had gained a level in the previous spellcasting class. That is exactly the same as the spellcasting a Wizard gains for gaining a level.

Same thing. Doesn't stack.

That's how gestalt works.

It's the same as how a Rokugan Ninja//Rogue doesn't get double sneak attack, and a Feat Rogue//Fighter doesn't get twice the bonus feats.

JaronK

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-05, 09:35 PM
Read MT again Tippy. It says you gain spells as though you had gained a level in the previous spellcasting class. That is exactly the same as the spellcasting a Wizard gains for gaining a level.

Same thing. Doesn't stack.

That's how gestalt works.

It's the same as how a Rokugan Ninja//Rogue doesn't get double sneak attack, and a Feat Rogue//Fighter doesn't get twice the bonus feats.

JaronK

I could see an argument for you getting casting as a wiz 20, wiz 20, and cleric 20.

But as written they are features from different classes, with different names, and different effects.

How do you not get the benefits of it?

Turcano
2007-06-05, 09:36 PM
It doesn't matter that there is no mechanical difference in the end effect. What matters is that they are different class features.

They are different class features. They stack.

How can they be different class features if they do the exact same thing? One gets the same additions to spell levels, spells per day, spells known, and caster level whether you gain a level in wizard or a level of, say, loremaster. How can someone see two class additions with the exact same benefits and perceive them as different class features?

Damionte
2007-06-05, 09:37 PM
Why?

Gestalt says different features stack.

They are different features, just like a +2 enhancement bonus is a different feature when compared to a +2 sacred bonus.

RAW doesn't care about how broken that is.

You need to divorce yourself from the idea that the RAW has to be balanced. Admit that it is utterly broken and needs heavy modification.

Or good players who won't break it in game.

Once you chose wizard as what the prc was improving they became the same class feature.

Had your PRC been improving Sorc instead of wizard then they'd be different class features. Since you chose wizard they're the same feature.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-06, 02:35 PM
I could see an argument for you getting casting as a wiz 20, wiz 20, and cleric 20.

But as written they are features from different classes, with different names, and different effects.

How do you not get the benefits of it?


I agree with Tippy Sudden Strike is very similar to the Rogue's Sneak Attack ability but the description of the ability specifically says it stacks with Sneak Attack in the last paragraph.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-06-06, 03:07 PM
But sneak attack and sudden strike are named differently. Caster level isn't. It hasn't been refferenced here yet, so I'll include the SRD passage on caster level-


Caster Level
A spellís power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class youíre using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your targetís spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).

Caster Level Checks
To make a caster level check, roll 1d20 and add your caster level (in the relevant class). If the result equals or exceeds the DC (or the spell resistance, in the case of caster level checks made for spell resistance), the check succeeds.

Now, back to things like the Mystic Theurge. This is written under the explanation for how they obtain their spells per day, with a bolded passage by myself.


Spells per Day
When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

You cannot have two levels of wizard and stack them together as they're the same class feature (I'd certainly call spellcasting a class feature, otherwise I'd like to know why every class doesn't get it). Since this would be the equivalent of taking wizard//wizard, it doesn't work like that.

brains?
2007-06-06, 03:11 PM
You could take two classes that give you bonus spellcaster levels as either side of a gestalt though, and progress twice as fast, couldnt you?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-06-06, 03:20 PM
As per the wording of gestalt, it doesn't appear so. The check you'd use would be for the particular spellcasting class you've got. Wizard//Sorcerer wouldn't net you a higher caster level then usual because both are different classes. And since you can't combine the same class feature per level in gestalt, there is no real way to get a wizard//wizard increase, be it from mystic theurge or archmage or whatever.

But there are other tricks to getting a higher-then-average caster level anyway that wouldn't bank on using a gestalt system. Just apply those and that'd be legal. Cheesy, but legal.

Turcano
2007-06-06, 03:53 PM
I agree with Tippy Sudden Strike is very similar to the Rogue's Sneak Attack ability but the description of the ability specifically says it stacks with Sneak Attack in the last paragraph.

Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike are not mechanically the same; the primary difference is that Sudden Strike does not come into play when flanking, but only when the target is denied a Dex AC bonus. And different names don't enter into it; you could rename the assassin's sneak attack as Double Secret Assassin Gank of Death and it still wouldn't stack with Sneak Attack.

JaronK
2007-06-06, 03:58 PM
Sudden Strike and Sneak Attack do stack, because they're different. Note that the example I gave was Rogue/Rokugan Ninja, which both grant sneak attack. It's the same thing from different sources.

But no, you cannot get Wizard 20 Wizard 20 casting, as you can progress the same thing. Nor can you get Wizard 40 casting or any other such oddities.

Fighter//Psionic Warrior gives more feats, because fighter gives fighter bonus feats, but psionic warrior gives bonus feats that are either from the fighter list or the psionic list, so it's a different class feature. But Feat Rogue//Fighter won't give any extra feats, because they grant the same thing.

Likewise, Wizard//Wizard PrC does not increase your spellcasting any faster than straight Wizard, because both sides are granting the exact same thing (spells as though you leveled in Wizard).

JaronK

Indon
2007-06-06, 04:29 PM
Not to mention, if similar but differently-titled spellcaster levels stacked between progressions, Wizard 20//Sorceror 20 would have an Arcane caster level of 40; because Wizard and Sorceror are different arcane casting classes (and caster levels for those classes stack).

For an interesting exercise demonstrating the silliness of the very concept of RAW: What is the caster level of a Wizard 10/Sorceror 10//Sorceror 10/Wizard 10 (i.e. a Wizard/Sorceror who swapped their levels between progressions)?

Blue Paladin
2007-06-06, 05:04 PM
Just curious, as all this MT debate has me interested in a tangent...

How about a gestalt Swordsage//Warblade? Good saves across the board, d12 hit die, 6 skill points per level... and a stacking Initiator Level. At SS12//WB12, that's IL 18//18 for both sides; that's level 9 maneuvers at level 12.

Knee-jerk reactions? Comments? Suggestions?

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-06-06, 05:16 PM
Just curious, as all this MT debate has me interested in a tangent...

How about a gestalt Swordsage//Warblade? Good saves across the board, d12 hit die, 6 skill points per level... and a stacking Initiator Level. At SS12//WB12, that's IL 18//18 for both sides; that's level 9 maneuvers at level 12.

Knee-jerk reactions? Comments? Suggestions?

Initiator Levels don't stack like that.

It wouldn't be a bad build except for the MAD (Str, Con, Dex, Int, and Wis are all important).

However, it's not core, as this thread specifies the builds should be.

Shoyliguad
2007-06-06, 05:25 PM
You want a deadly level 20 combo? Ranger or druid and a bard. What you get is someone that can turn EVERY enemy into an ally willing to risk their lives for you, thats as fun as dominate monster!

Tellah
2007-06-06, 05:58 PM
If I may lend my katana to Tippy's gordian knot, why would you want to have double Wizard casting progression? I'd take Wiz3/MT10/Wizard7//Archivist3/Psion10/Psychic Theurge7 over dual Wizard progression any day.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-06, 06:11 PM
Yes, the Druid//Bard Diplomancer is broken, because it takes advantage of the broken Diplomancy rules. Furthermore, inspire confidence upon wild shaping. Not only that, but through the exact text of the feat Natural Spell, it never specifies only your druid spells, so you've got a lot of will save shut down stuff from Bard, which can increase your survivability. Not as good as sorcerer, but not bad.

Ranger//Wizard/loremaster/AM (since we're going straight Core)

Going pure wizard, to be honest, sucks. Loremaster is the only full spellcasting progression PrC Core, other than AM. Besides, bonus spells, a +1 dodge bonus to AC, and a bonus feat more than makes up for the metamagic feats you don't get. Greater Lore means you don't have to blow 100 gp trying to identify items anymore. True Lore also has a lot of uses, since it's free.

This build is good because a) all three good saves, b) Full BAB from Ranger, c) ranged combat feats do double duty with both archery and ranged touch spells, d) Batman with full BAB, D8 hit die, all three good saves, and the ability to vanish without needing a spell in natural surroundings.

Cleric/heirophant//Rogue/Shadowdancer

Starts off Cleric/Rogue, then when you hit prereqs, Cleric/Shadowdancer, then ending in Heirophant/Rogue.

Good points:
All three good saves
CoDzilla with SA, Hide in Plain Sight, free shadow pet for flanking and Strength draining, shadow jumping, and skillmonky skill points

Bad points: 3/4 BAB, since you can't DMM Persist Divine Power in Core.

Fortunately for this combo, most every attack should be a sneak attack. You can sneak attack with a Cause for truely insane negative energy damage inflicted to one target, and that's only one of the weakest things to do. The medium BAB is easily offset by the fact that you can do flat footed touch attacks so you're ripping into your opponent's AC anyways. If your opponents can find you... you're doing something wrong.

Monk/Wizard/Loremaster/AM

All three saves, 3/4 BAB, and all the 'NO' of a Monk while still being Batman. Lots of immunities, improved evasion, monk class ability lets you go ethereal for a few rounds as an extra benefit, and capping off with DR 10/Magic (which isn't all that good by this level, but can make it fun to wade through mooks).

Surprisingly powerful, but perhaps not as much as the Ranger version, since Rangers get full BAB.

Rogue//Wizard/Loremaster/AM

Ouch. Nice Int synergy with Batman and Skillmonkey. Two of three saves, evasion, 3/4 BAB, sneak attacks. If you want, instead you can go Rogue/Shadowdancer//Wizard/AM starting out with Rogue/Wiz then Shadowdancer/Wiz, then Rogue/AM. Like the Rogue/Cleric, if your opponents can find you, then you did something wrong. HiPS + insane Hide mods + improved Invisibility = no one should ever see you, no matter what they've got. Tack on Overland Flight to foil Tremorsense and you're all set.

Barbarian/Dragon Disciple//Sorcerer

Bear with me. Okay, so you're not Batman... fine, you're freekin' Superman. D12 hit die and Fort save from Barb makes you a LOT harder to kill, and you have something to do when you don't have the right spell for the occasion... hulk smash. Since DD doesn't have a spell progression, you can happily take it in conjunction with Sorcerer.

In the end? About the only thing that can screw you is Reflex saves, and you've got enough hit points to soak up Evocation damage if they're stupid enough to launch it at you. Resilient Sphere is easily dealt with by either Dispel magic or Disintegrate... and really, you'd be thanking them to put you in a resilient sphere where you can rain down death and destruction with complete invulnerability.

Barbarian//Druid

Who needs PrC's with clases like these? Can we say Greater Raging Dire Bear? D12 hit die gives you more survivability, and the DR is nice as well. Let's not forget your full BAB for your wildshaped stuff. Ho no... ees Gojirra!

Pal/DD/Monk//Sorcerer

Like the Barb/DD//Sorc, but this time focusing on saves. Still has mostly full BAB, a very respectable D10 hit die, and amazing Cha synergy. Since paladin stinks after level 3, you're free to multiclass out to monk, then once you qualify, go to DD then back to Monk when you're done with that. Grab the feat that lets you use Cha instead of Wis for your monk AC bonus. Grab a Monk's Belt. Win.

Barbarian//Cleric

Like the Barbarian//Druid... who needs PrC's with classes like these? Worship Kord and even have a fig leaf of respectability by claiming it's RP.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-06-06, 06:52 PM
As for the non core MA classes- yeah, mixing swordsage and warblade makes for one super killer gestalt. There's MAD, but you should honestly outright ignore it and place attributes for the character as though he was either a swordsage or a warblade, NOT BOTH- you'll get neat benefits from the other end, but your stats should reflect your prefference as you simply can't deal with that many attributes. So you're either a swordsage with full BAB, a d12 hit dice and extra feats or a quick warblade with specialty weapons and 6 skillpoints. And either way you do it, you have a mind-boggling number of maneuvers to whip out every fight- easily worth doing double MA's like that.

Damionte
2007-06-06, 06:56 PM
You could take two classes that give you bonus spellcaster levels as either side of a gestalt though, and progress twice as fast, couldnt you?


We're saying you can't take two that bump up your caster level in the same class and progress faster in that manner.

RTGoodman
2007-06-06, 07:24 PM
It's not exactly Core, but a Gestalt build I've been thinking would be fun is something like this (assuming you can meet prerequisites and stuff - don't have my books on me to check):

(Human) Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Dervish 10/Tempest 5//Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10

To me, this seems like the ultimate dexterous fighter, plus cool bard abilities. And look at the benefits: full BAB, good saves all around (I think), good HP (d10 at every level), 9th level spells, decent skill points (either 4 or 6 + Int per level, I think), Dex to attacks, Int and Str to damage, a bajillion attacks per turn at 20th level (with full BAB, TWF, and A Thousand Cuts, plus maybe Haste), decent bardic music ability, synergy with Dervish Dance and bardic music (your duration for the dance is based on your ranks in Perform [Dance], and I've always assumed that P[D] can be used for bardic music - SRD doesn't say it can't), buffs for yourself and your allies, etc. It's a little MAD (Dex, Cha, and Int minimum, plus maybe Str for more damage and Con for more melee-oriented characters), but still doable, I think.


Of course, I usually end up just sticking with one class rather than multiclassing, so this is a pretty complex build to me...

Turcano
2007-06-06, 07:37 PM
It's not exactly Core, but a Gestalt build I've been thinking would be fun is something like this (assuming you can meet prerequisites and stuff - don't have my books on me to check):

(Human) Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Dervish 10/Tempest 5//Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10

To me, this seems like the ultimate dexterous fighter, plus cool bard abilities. And look at the benefits:

(snip)

You have 25 levels of prestige classes in that build, and you can only have one prestige class on one side of the progression, so that particular build is illegal.

RTGoodman
2007-06-06, 07:44 PM
You have 25 levels of prestige classes in that build, and you can only have one prestige class on one side of the progression, so that particular build is illegal.

Ah, yeah, I just realized that. I had completely forgotten about that until just a second ago. I guess you could still go with just Bard 20 on one side and skip out on Sublime Chord. Lower-level spells, but you've still got a bunch of other stuff...

Zincorium
2007-06-06, 09:49 PM
You have 25 levels of prestige classes in that build, and you can only have one prestige class on one side of the progression, so that particular build is illegal.

True.


However, it's been my personal experience at the table that if certain limitations are induced, prestige classes on both sides of gestalt can be rewarding in play, and have the cachet of 'I can do EVERYTHING' that is very attractive to some people. It will, of course, be a high powered game, but often not significantly more so than gestalt makes it already.

First off, house rules are much like the lock on your front door, they'll keep the people who weren't insistent on causing a problem from doing so, but if someone has set out to make your life miserable, it won't matter one Iota. Of course, even using gestalt around those players is letting the Dao out of the bottle and the end result isn't going to be enjoyable.


The one I've seen and played under is the 'thematic' approach, in which the prestige classes you choose are a direct reflection of what your character has been and the DM considers each Prc before allowing you to take it. This is basically exactly how prestige classes were intended to work, so of course it may not be workable in your game.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-06-06, 09:53 PM
The "no double prestige classes" is another rule I toss out the window. Prestige classes are fun because they let you specialize. If they happen to be fun, why should I limit that fun?

JaronK
2007-06-06, 10:51 PM
The "no double prestige classes" is another rule I toss out the window. Prestige classes are fun because they let you specialize. If they happen to be fun, why should I limit that fun?

Because in gestalt, you can use that specialization to serious advantage. PrCs tend to be less well rounded, but a second PrC that comes at the same advantage from a different angle can lead to incredible power. For example:

Barbarian 5/Fighter 2/Hulking Hurler 3/War Hulk 10//Feat Rogue 4/Warblade 6/Frenzied Berserker 10

Now that's what I call damage!

Uncap both restrictions and you end up with this monster, for example:

Wizard 5/Anima Mage 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5//Binder 1/Archivist 8/Sacred Exorcist 1/Geomancer 10

This guy can use Divine Persistant Metamagic to keep a bunch of spells going all day... plus Anima Mage Vestige Metamatic to do the same thing with up to three arcane spells per day. Also, he's a melee monstrosity, can create any magic item without needing the feats to do it, and just for a basic persisted spell load out, he can persist this all day long:

Delay Death, Shapechange, Wraithstrike, Swift Haste, Divine Power, Divine Favor, Giant Size.

Yehaw. Oh, and he's a 20th level wizard and an 19th level Archivist, plus he can bind up to 5th level vestiges. And he's got tons of natural attacks.

JaronK

Zincorium
2007-06-06, 11:04 PM
Because in gestalt, you can use that specialization to serious advantage. PrCs tend to be less well rounded, but a second PrC that comes at the same advantage from a different angle can lead to incredible power. For example:

Barbarian 5/Fighter 2/Hulking Hurler 3/War Hulk 10//Feat Rogue 4/Warblade 6/Frenzied Berserker 10

Now that's what I call damage!

Uncap both restrictions and you end up with this monster, for example:

Wizard 5/Anima Mage 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5//Binder 1/Archivist 8/Sacred Exorcist 1/Geomancer 10

This guy can use Divine Persistant Metamagic to keep a bunch of spells going all day... plus Anima Mage Vestige Metamatic to do the same thing with up to three arcane spells per day. Also, he's a melee monstrosity, can create any magic item without needing the feats to do it, and just for a basic persisted spell load out, he can persist this all day long:

Delay Death, Shapechange, Wraithstrike, Swift Haste, Divine Power, Divine Favor, Giant Size.

Yehaw. Oh, and he's a 20th level wizard and an 19th level Archivist, plus he can bind up to 5th level vestiges. And he's got tons of natural attacks.

JaronK



Yes! Someone proves my point exactly just two posts later!!

ocato
2007-06-06, 11:30 PM
You know, this might not be uber, but I think a Paladin//cleric would be fun to play. You don't have to worry about the missing base attack bonus since Paladins bring it to the table. Paladin also brings a d10 HD, very nice. You can pump Charisma and Wisdom, since they are the key stats to both classes, and the abilities stack nicely. Clerics have two great saves and Paladins let you add Charisma to saves so your reflex will at least become passable. Lay on hands would be a lovely heal to fall back on in emergencies. Choose to worship pelor and take the Sun and Strength domains and you can really whallop someone.

Imagine a Cleric//Paladin with insane charisma. Divine Metacheese: Quicken Divine power (mostly for the +6 strength since you already have full BaB via paladin, if you have a good strength item this is mostly unneccessary) and then Righteous Might. Then. next turn, you just full attack with two hands on your weapon (you have an animated shield, right?), Smite, if you have the paladin spell holy sword and your weapon isn't already uber, have that in there precasted too, use the Strength Domain once per day ability to add your Cleric level to strength rolls for 1 round, power attack, etc etc.

That's a hell of a slap.

And the flavor is fairly reasonable. A paladin//cleric? Sounds like a mighty chosen warrior of your god (I like Pelor personally.)

My only real complaint? Paladins have to be LG so you can't grab Radiant Servant of Pelor (requires NG). However, this just means that your full Cleric level goes into that Strength Domain granted power instead of just 6 levels before Radiant servant.

That sounds like a fairly fun character. All the insane power of a battle cleric with charisma to saves, a charisma based evil slap, and a few spells that the cleric misses. Lay on hands isn't bad and the free mount is a nice little add on, and Martial weapon proficiency!

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-06, 11:58 PM
Pally/Cleric has a lot of redundancies too. I'd suggest Barb/Cleric. D12 hit die, rage, DR... not as much in the way of saves, but still very very obnoxious

Pal2/Monk4/Dragon Disciple10/Monk2//Sorcerer20. All three high saves. Cha bonus used not only for casting, but for more saves. Grab the feat that lets you use charisma for monk bonus to AC. Grab a monk's belt. Because DD doesn't have caster progression, you can grab it in tandem with sorcerer. Not only do you have all the game-breaking cracktastic Sorcerer stuff, second only to CoDzilla and Wizard, but you've also got D12 hit die from the DD, D10 and Cha to saves from Pal, and you're only loosing two points of BAB from the monk levels, which gives you even more AC, saves, and immunities.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-06-07, 02:14 AM
Quick question about Gestalt: Does LA + RHD fill up both sides of progression or one?
For example, would an Afflicted Werewolf Fighter/Rogue go LA 2/Animal 2/Fighter n//Rogue n+4 or LA 1/Animal 1/Fighter n//LA 1/Animal 1/Rogue n?

Zincorium
2007-06-07, 02:42 AM
Quick question about Gestalt: Does LA + RHD fill up both sides of progression or one?
For example, would an Afflicted Werewolf Fighter/Rogue go LA 2/Animal 2/Fighter n//Rogue n+4 or LA 1/Animal 1/Fighter n//LA 1/Animal 1/Rogue n?

It's never stated in the gestalt section of unearthed arcana, and thus is firmly in house rule land. One more thing that makes me wish they'd come out with an authoritative article on gestalt.

There was a whole big thread on just that particular debate and the merits of both sides, which I can't seem to find, but there's a lot of argument either way.

As far as a reasonable synopsis:
Generally, for most creatures in the MM that have LA, such as hobgoblins, and for racial hit dice, not putting it as a single side will significantly weaken the character compared to one with full class progression on both sides.

However, technically gestalt with level adjustments leads to the following quandry:

ClassA 5 // ClassB 5 is not equal to ClassA 5/ClassB 5 (with the // meaning gestalt and the / meaning multiclass) due to the fact that the 2nd example has 10 total character levels.

ClassA 5 // Level adjustment 5 is equal to ClassA 5 with Level adjustment 5, the second one being stated as equal in power to a 10th level character.

However, since the vast majority of examples of ClassA 5 with level adjustment 5 are significantly weaker than ClassA 5 / ClassB 5, the use of LA as one side of gestalt progression is seldom going to cause a power imbalance.

When you get into things like Mineral Warrior, Lolth-Touched, and Feral, this is no longer true, and if someone tries to use these you should firmly tell them 'no'.

Also, put another way, it seems absurd to state that ClassA 5// ClassB 5 with a level adjustment of 5 is anywhere equal to ClassA 10 // ClassB 10 when you attempt to give an example with anything that actually has a level adjustment of 5 in the monster manual. It's only when you get into the more obscure books (I know of no campaign that allows everything out of the Underdark, Savage species, or MM 4 books into player hands).

Callix
2007-06-07, 06:09 AM
Anyone considered rogue/wizard, running to Arcane Trickster/wizard? Int & Dex synergy well for all classes, and you can just ranged sneak attack with rays or bows. As for what I'd really want to play? Fighter/Bard. 3 good saves, feats, healing... and the chance to make epic songs about myself. Oh, and if we move into completes (not really neccesary), makes an awesome dervish.

Damionte
2007-06-07, 06:27 AM
Originally Posted by Turcano
You have 25 levels of prestige classes in that build, and you can only have one prestige class on one side of the progression, so that particular build is illegal.

It doesn't say that. it says you can't combine two prestige classes at any level.

That's it.

It mentions nothing about being able to take only one prestige class per side, and I actually read that to mean you can't level two prestige classes at the same time at any one lvl. Thus as long as your class wasn't soemthign liek the monk that doesn't normally allow you to flip flop to it, you could level prestige classes on both side with them alternating every other lvl. It wouldn't be as fast as leveling them together and your build would take longer to get to the good stuff but it could be done. (Assuming you don't just house rule that away in the first place.)

Then again unearthed arcana is simply a book of house rule suggestions to be used as you see fit anyway; even more so than the normal Rule-Zero of the base game. Everythign in there needs to be checked over twice and scrutinised to fit what you actually want to do in a game.

Awetugiw
2007-06-07, 08:50 AM
The point is that with a prestige class at at most one side of the progression, one could never have 25 levels of prestige classes at level 20. 17 or so would probably be the maximum.

nows7
2007-06-07, 09:27 AM
The reason to follow the no-double classes is pretty much this:
4 Favored soul / 6 Mystic theuge / 10 Foucian Lyricist // 4 Sor / 1 bard / 2 monk / 3 Druid / 10 Arcane Heirophant.

You end up with 20 CL for FS and Sor, 11 Bard caster level and bardic music and lore, 13 druid CL wild shape, Evasion, Wis to AC, 17 BAB, 11 Fort/13 Ref/17 Wil, wear any light armor, or any druidic armor.

Now, if one of my players came to me with this i'd tell them to go play a 20 Bard//20 Bard.

brian c
2007-06-07, 10:21 AM
The reason to follow the no-double classes is pretty much this:
4 Favored soul / 6 Mystic theuge / 10 Foucian Lyricist // 4 Sor / 1 bard / 2 monk / 3 Druid / 10 Arcane Heirophant.

You end up with 20 CL for FS and Sor, 11 Bard caster level and bardic music and lore, 13 druid CL wild shape, Evasion, Wis to AC, 17 BAB, 11 Fort/13 Ref/17 Wil, wear any light armor, or any druidic armor.

Now, if one of my players came to me with this i'd tell them to go play a 20 Bard//20 Bard.

Eh... see, the thing about this is that I wouldn't let one of my players do

4 Sor / 1 bard / 2 monk / 3 Druid / 10 Arcane Heirophant

in the first place. What in the world do you need 5 classes for? I know it's optimized, but it's not "realistic" in that a character would never take those classes unless they were metagamey trying to be more powerful. I limit players to 2 base classes, unless they have a really good RP reason. I've never run a Gestalt game, but I would allow PrC//PrC.

nows7
2007-06-07, 10:38 AM
Eh... see, the thing about this is that I wouldn't let one of my players do

4 Sor / 1 bard / 2 monk / 3 Druid / 10 Arcane Heirophant

in the first place. What in the world do you need 5 classes for? I know it's optimized, but it's not "realistic" in that a character would never take those classes unless they were metagamey trying to be more powerful. I limit players to 2 base classes, unless they have a really good RP reason. I've never run a Gestalt game, but I would allow PrC//PrC.


Thats realy the point. The build is metagamey and cheese filled made completely out of cheese. I just posted it as a example of why you must keep restrictions on gestault.

Blue Paladin
2007-06-07, 10:50 AM
Initiator Levels don't stack like that.How do they not? Swordsage IL is the total of:
levels in Swordsage (are there any? Yes: 12)
levels in full-IL prestige classes (are there any? No: 0)
and half the levels of everything else (are there any? Yes: WB 12, div by 2 = 6)

Swordsage IL 18. Similarly, Warblade IL 18. All Initiator Level looks for is the existence of outside classes, and counts them as half. With Gestalt, yes, those classes exist. For some true cheese, swap out one of the sides for a full-IL prestige class and you can snag some lv9 maneuvers a bit earlier... Swordsage11//Warblade8/MasterOfNine3 nets you SS IL 18//WB IL 16.


However, it's not core, as this thread specifies the builds should be.Sorry, I saw Ninjas and Heirophants and Kensai being thrown about, and thought we'd gone past that.

Enlong
2007-06-07, 11:59 AM
Wizard/Sorcerer

Stock up on all "need it every day" or "In case I need it" spells with the Sorcerer, then memorize the more obscure and situational magics with Wizard. Solves the problems in both classes at once. You just need to be both charismatic and intelligent.

Damionte
2007-06-07, 03:04 PM
in the first place. What in the world do you need 5 classes for? I know it's optimized, but it's not "realistic" in that a character would never take those classes unless they were metagamey trying to be more powerful. I limit players to 2 base classes, unless they have a really good RP reason. I've never run a Gestalt game, but I would allow PrC//PrC.


I'm going to ignore that part rather than hi jack the thread with the age old concept of rather characters have any concept of the "class" system. We could go on forever arguing about that one. Though that would be fun we can probabyl do it in another thread. :)

Reptilius
2007-06-07, 03:15 PM
How about being a fighter/fighter? For 22 Bonus Feats, I'd definitely cheat.

The Great Skenardo
2007-06-07, 03:18 PM
I actually think Swashbuckler/Wizard is quite a nice build. You get the awesometastic magic combined with good HD, BAB, skills and combat skills. You only need Intelligence and dexterity (bonus for con and Str, though), and there are tons of spells that you can use (even quickened) to make yourself a powerful combatant.

Zincorium
2007-06-07, 04:08 PM
Wizard/Sorcerer

Stock up on all "need it every day" or "In case I need it" spells with the Sorcerer, then memorize the more obscure and situational magics with Wizard. Solves the problems in both classes at once. You just need to be both charismatic and intelligent.


How about being a fighter/fighter? For 22 Bonus Feats, I'd definitely cheat.


Y'know, as outright awesome as they seem, these are builds that get so little versatility that the boost in power is offset. If you play gestalt as one of these, if fighter//fighter was even allowed (it isn't), then I hate to say it but you have truly missed the point. Why are you playing gestalt at all if you can't at least spread out the concept? And hopefully you're not in the primary gestalt situation (too few players for all roles) because you're actively hurting the party.

The wizard//sorceror: Yay. More spells. If it weren't for the fact that you were making the character out of two of the power four, you would be so pathetic it would hurt. Same saves. Same HD. Same skill points, base attack bonus, spell list, and it goes on.

Fighter//fighter: Even assuming you get both sets of feats (a casual reading suggests that ain't the case), you aren't going to be very much better than a straight up fighter. Most of the good feats have requirements that you aren't meeting any earlier than normal, so you aren't going to be more powerful than a typical single class fighter most of your adventuring path.

OutlawJT
2007-06-20, 10:31 AM
How do they not? Swordsage IL is the total of:
levels in Swordsage (are there any? Yes: 12)
levels in full-IL prestige classes (are there any? No: 0)
and half the levels of everything else (are there any? Yes: WB 12, div by 2 = 6)

Swordsage IL 18. Similarly, Warblade IL 18. All Initiator Level looks for is the existence of outside classes, and counts them as half. With Gestalt, yes, those classes exist. For some true cheese, swap out one of the sides for a full-IL prestige class and you can snag some lv9 maneuvers a bit earlier... Swordsage11//Warblade8/MasterOfNine3 nets you SS IL 18//WB IL 16.

Sorry, I saw Ninjas and Heirophants and Kensai being thrown about, and thought we'd gone past that.

It doesn't work that way!! Wizard 12//Sorcerer 12 doesn't stack for determining caster level. Ergo, Swordsage 12//Warblade 12 doesn't stack for determining initiator level. In gestalt you take the best from each side of the build. The best initiator level for the swordsage half is the swordsage IL of 12. Likewise for the Warblade it is the Warblade 12. If you wanted you could use the 6 IL they'd get from the other side instead of their own progression but that would just be retarded.

Birile
2007-06-22, 09:13 AM
The reason to follow the no-double classes is pretty much this:
4 Favored soul / 6 Mystic theuge / 10 Foucian Lyricist // 4 Sor / 1 bard / 2 monk / 3 Druid / 10 Arcane Heirophant.

You end up with 20 CL for FS and Sor, 11 Bard caster level and bardic music and lore, 13 druid CL wild shape, Evasion, Wis to AC, 17 BAB, 11 Fort/13 Ref/17 Wil, wear any light armor, or any druidic armor.

Now, if one of my players came to me with this i'd tell them to go play a 20 Bard//20 Bard.

Nevermind the fact that you can't progress Fochlucan Lyrist and Arcane Heirophant at the same time 'cause they're both PrC.

IIRC you can get into Arcane Heirophant before Lvl 11 (as opposed to Fochlucan Lyrist) yet that would bump up against the Mystic Theurge PrC you've got listed, so...

Blue Paladin
2007-06-22, 10:56 AM
It doesn't work that way!! Wizard 12//Sorcerer 12 doesn't stack for determining caster level. Ergo, Swordsage 12//Warblade 12 doesn't stack for determining initiator level.Is there a school where people learn faulty logic? Look, here's a simple counterproof for you:

Wizard 8/Sorceror 4 (multi-class, not gestalt) doesn't stack for determining caster level. That's a CL 8 for Wizard and CL 4 for Sorceror.
Swordsage 8/Warblade 4 does stack (partially) for determining initiator level. Following the rules yields IL 10 for Swordsage and IL 8 for Warblade.

Notice how IL and CL have nothing to do with each other? Yeah. Ergo.


In gestalt you take the best from each side of the build. The best initiator level for the swordsage half is the swordsage IL of 12. Likewise for the Warblade it is the Warblade 12.Read the Gestalt Rules. Between the two classes, you take the better hit points, better skill points, better saves, and class abilities (faster progression only) of each.

Caster level is not a class ability. It is a calculation based on your level in a particular class (possibly modified by prestige classes).

Read the Book of Nine Swords. Read the section on Initiator Level. Look what else isn't a class ability! Initiator Level is also a calculation: an adept's IL is equal to his class levels in that particular class (possibly modified by prestige classes) plus one-half his levels in everything else. Unless you wish to claim our gestalt character here has only one class?


If you wanted you could use the 6 IL they'd get from the other side instead of their own progression but that would just be retarded.And if you read the rules, you would know that you can't even do this. There's no choice involved; it's pure math.

Droodle
2007-06-22, 12:20 PM
Paladin of Freedom 2/Cleric 18/Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10

Charisma synergy for turning undead (which should make up for the lost turning levels), saves, and Arcane Casting. It gets all good saves, and decent bardic music progression to boot. Give Charisma priority, since the priest side of the fence will be mostly devoted to buffs with persistent divine meta-magic (it may be cheese, but it's legal) and healing with this build (save DC's won't be too important for the Cleric spells since you can use your arcane magic for offense). If you really think it's necessary, you can take practiced spellcaster to bring your caster level on the Priest side up to 20, but I wouldn't bother.

Delaney Gale
2007-06-22, 01:04 PM
I actually think Swashbuckler/Wizard is quite a nice build. You get the awesometastic magic combined with good HD, BAB, skills and combat skills. You only need Intelligence and dexterity (bonus for con and Str, though), and there are tons of spells that you can use (even quickened) to make yourself a powerful combatant.

I squee for this build. ^^ Actually, that's essentially what my avvie is- a mashup of my swashbuckler and my wizard. Combining my two favorite character archetypes into one? YAY! The build would also have good-to-excellent saves- most people would put at least something into CON and WIS (although I am guilty of using WIS as a dump stat. I like playing brash), and it would have full advancement in all saves. You could even toss the need for STR with Weapon Finesse- the insight bonus would make up for lost damage potential.