Making the magic system skill based (DnD 3.5)

[Bobbybobby99]

Classes. Generic Expert or Warrior. Increase number of Class Skills by ten, freely chosen. Increase number of skill points per level by six.

Magical skills. All magic is now done under the auspice of the skill system. Each school of magic, and each Shugenja element (see expansions) is now a skill. All are trained only. All magic skills are based off of Charisma; Wisdom determines save DCs. There are no spells per day.
(Conjuration. Transmutation. Evocation. Illusion. Divination. Enchantment. Abjuration. Necromancy. Earth. Water. Air. Fire.)
DC. 15. Basic difficulty to cast a Cantrip or Orison.
+3 DC for each increase in level. Doing so also involves a minimal level, the lowest level at which you can use the skill in such a fashion; to determine the minimal level required for a spell level, multiply the spell level by two and subtract one. Level increases from metamagic do not have a minimum level, except for epic metamagic, which has a universal minimum level of 21.
+1 DC for each other spell cast that day, of any school.

Other: The inflict and harm series is now part of necromancy.


What do you think? Horribly unbalancing? Decent? Would it work better if altered in some way? Is it inappropriate that my reaction to magic being unbalanced is to give everyone magic?

Classes. Generic Expert or Warrior. Increase number of Class Skills by ten, freely chosen. Increase number of skill points per level by six.

Magical skills. All magic is now done under the auspice of the skill system. Each school of magic, and each Shugenja element (see expansions) is now a skill. All are trained only. The eight arcane schools are based off of charisma, the four divine schools are based off of wisdom. There are no spells per day.
(Conjuration. Transmutation. Evocation. Illusion. Divination. Enchantment. Abjuration. Necromancy. Earth. Water. Air. Fire.)
DC. 15. Basic difficulty to cast a Cantrip or Orison.
DC. 18. Level 1.
DC. 21. Level 2.
DC. 24. Level 3.
DC. 27. Level 4.
DC. 30. Level 5.
DC. 33. Level 6.
DC. 36. Level 7.
DC. 39. Level 8.
DC. 42. Level 9.
Continued for epic level.
+3 DC for each increase in level. Doing so also involves a minimal level, the lowest level at which you can use the skill in such a fashion; to determine the minimal level required for a spell level, multiply the spell level by two and subtract one. Level increases from metamagic do not have a minimum level, except for epic metamagic, which has a universal minimum level of 21.
+1 DC for each other spell cast that day.
Armor check penalties also apply to all magical skills.

Every level in a particular magic skill adds two spells to the spell known list for that school, each of which having a seperate list. A spell can only be known in a single school.

Other: The inflict and harm series is now incorporated in necromancy.

Level 0.
Air. Daze, Ghost sound, Guidance, Know direction.
Earth. Mage hand, Mending, Resistance, Virtue.
Fire. Dancing lights, Disrupt undead, Flare, Light.
Water. Create water, Cure minor wounds, Detect poison, Purify food and drink.
All. Detect magic, Read magic.
Level 1.
Air. Detect snares and pits, Disguise self, Expenditious retreat, Feather fall, Silent image, Sleep, Updraft, Deep breath, Remove scent, Benign transposition, Serene visage,
Earth. Magic stone, Magic weapon, Pass without trace, Sanctuary, Shield of faith, Wood wose, Animate wood, Foundation of stone, Goodberry, Greater Mage hand.
Fire. Burning hands, Cause fear, Faerie fire, Hypnotism, Shocking grasp, Animate fire, Aura against flames, Thunderhead, Ray of flame, Guiding light.
Water. Speak with animals, Bless, Cure light wounds, Obscuring mist, Remove fear, Lesser vigor, Wings of the sea, Animate water, Resurgence, Conviction.
All. Endure elements.
Level 2.
Air. Detect thoughts, Levitate, Minor image, Silence, Color spray, Master air, Cloud wings, Binding winds, Wings of air, Reflective disguise.
Earth. Barkskin, Bear's endurance, Bull's strength, Hold person, Make whole, Glitterdust, Earthfast, Warp wood, Earthen grace, Burrow, Speak with plants.
Fire. Cat's grace, Flame blade, Flaming sphere, Heat metal, Produce flame, Heartfire, Burning sword, Fireburst, Scorch, Flame dagger.
Water. Fog cloud, Cure moderate wounds, Delay poison, Lesser restoration, Locate objects, Remove paralysis, Healing lorecall, Stabilize, Close wounds, Frost breath, Swim.
All. Resist energy.
Level 3.
Air. Clairsentience, Gust of wind, Haste, Invisibility, Major image, Wind wall, Air breathing, Downdraft, Swift fly, Anticipate teleportation, Spectral weapon.
Earth. Greater magic weapon, Meld into stone, Plant growth, Prayer, Stone shape, Tremor, Mass mage armor, Greater mage armor, Tremorsense, Stony grasp.
Fire. Call lightning, Daylight, Fire wings, Keen edge, Searing light, Fire wings, Flashburst, Great thunderclap, Glowing orb, Wall of light.
Water. Cure serious wounds, Remove blindness, Remove curse, Remove disease, Water breathing, Water walk, Vigor, Mass lesser vigor, Dehydrate, Mass conviction, Weather eye.
All. Dispel magic, Glyph of warding, Protection from energy, Summon nature's ally 3, Mass resist energy.
Level 4.
Air. Air walk, Detect scrying, Discern lies, Hallucinatory terrain, Illusory wall, Greater wings of air, Wind at back, Eye of the hurricane, Sensory deprivation, Wingbind.
Earth. Death ward, Dismissal, Spell immunity, Spike stones, Dimensional anchor, Greater resistance, Lay of the land, Command plants, Mass burrow, Stone sphere.
Fire. Fire shield, Fire arrow, Lightning bolt, Quench, Wall of fire, Arc of lightning, Fire stride, Flame whips, Dragon breath, Thunderlance.
Water. Control water, Cure critical wounds, Locate creature, Neutralize poison, Restoration, Panacea, Revenance, Wall of water, Sheltered vitality, Mass swim.
All. Summon elementite swarm.
Level 5.
Air. Control winds, Dimension door, Greater invisibility, Mirage arcana, Peristent image, Wind tunnel, Mass fly, Shadowform, Greater dimension door, Phantasmal thief.
Earth. Passwall, Spell resistance, Wall of iron, Wall of stone, Greater stone shape, Lesser Ironguard, Planar tolerance, Wall of dispel magic, Zone of respite.
Fire. Energy vortex, Confusion, Feeblemind Dragon breath, Flame strike, Inferno, Mass fire shield, Firebrand, Greater fireburst, Ball lightning.
Water. Atonement, Mass cure light wounds, Righteous might, Scrying, Wall of ice, Greater vigor, Cloak of the sea, Swamp stride, Freeze, Dance of the unicorn.
All. Commune with nature, Summon nature's ally 5.
Level 6.
Air. Cloudkill, Permanent image, Teleport, Veil, Wind walk, Miasma, Mass reflective disguise, Dream casting, Greater anticipate teleportation.
Earth. Antimagic field, Banishment, Move earth, Stone tell, Stoneskin, Superior resistance, Stone body, Hardening, Tunnel swallow.
Fire. Fire seeds, Fires of purity, Greater glyph of warding, Anger of the noonday sun, Fires of purity, Ray of light, Animate breath.
Water. Contingency, Control weather, Heal, Master of the rolling river, Vigorous circle, Extract water elemental, Tidal surge, Cometfall.
All. Greater dispel magic, Summon nature's ally 6, Energy immunity, Summon greater elemental.
Level 7.
Air. Mass invisibility, Invisibility, Programmed image, Teleport object, Cloudwalkers, Solipsism, Planar bubble, Spell matrix.
Earth. Disintegrate, Spell turning, Statue, Flesh to stone, Master earth, Ironguard, Glass strike, Animate plants.
Fire. Chain lightning, Fire storm, Sunbeam, Brilliant blade, Radiant assault, Emerald flame fist, Animate breath.
Water. Greater restoration, Greater scrying, Ressurection, Greater creeping cold, Mass restoration, Renewal pact, Watersprout, Fortunate fate.
All. Summon nature's ally 7, Storm of elemental fury.
Level 8.
Air. Screen, Greater teleport, Whirlwind, Shifting paths, Superior invisibility, Ghostform.
Earth. Binding, Earthquake, Protection from spells, Control plants, Excavate, Heart of stone.
Fire. Incediary cloud, Power word blind, Sunburst, Brilliant aura, Lightning ring, Stunning breath.
Water. Discern location, Mass heal, Regenerate, Heat drain, Stormrage, Maelstrom.
All. Summon nature's ally 8.
Level 9.
Air. Teleportation circle, Etheralness, Greater whirlwind, Programmed amnesia.
Earth. Antipathy, Imprisonment, Cast in stone, Undermaster.
Fire. Meteor swarm, Implosion, Transmute rock to lava, Breath weapon admixture.
Water. True ressurection, Storm of vengeance, Mass drown, Tsunami.
All. Summon nature's ally 9, Summon elemental monolith.

[nikkoli]

I'm not totally getting it. Do uou have to make a DC 15 caster level check to cast a cantrip? That seems excesive. Could you like write out the DC for casting a 0-9th level spell and explain why you have to roll to use it?

Skill based spell casting is something my friends and i have tried, but we used a mana system for limiting casting not spells/day. The skill was your ability to learn spells of that school. A skill rank was being eligible to learn another spell, and so forth. It was set in elderscrolls and we ran all the casters as sorcerers where you don't prep spells and such, and spells known was capped by your skills in different magics.

[Bobbybobby99]

Well, a first level wizard should easily make a DC 15 check by taking ten, so I wouldn't consider it excessive. Assuming that they went the full ten miles, a level twenty spellcaster could make something like a DC 41 check taking ten.

Level 0. DC 15.
Level 1. DC 18.
Level 2. DC 21.
Level 3. DC 24.
Level 4. DC 27.
Level 5. DC 30.
Level 6. DC 33.
Level 7. DC 36.
Level 8. DC 39.
Level 9. DC 42.

And then +1 to the DC for every spell of the same level or higher cast that day, and minimum levels as in the first post.

The primary reason I like the idea is that it makes spellcasting part of the main mechanic of skill checks and attributes, rather than being in it's own odd niche, sort of similar to star wars. It also has a side effect of making casting your high level spells when you can't take ten on the check more risky, encouraging the use of lower level spells, and sort of reflecting the quadratic growth of spells in the difficulty.

I'm mostly throwing ideas out there, at this point; at first glance it seems like it would be balanced (paired with the generic Expert and Warrior), but I'd like to know other people's opinions about it.

[Jormengand]

This seems like an even less thought-through version of Truespeak, only with full-power spells. What gives?

[Bobbybobby99]

As far as I'm aware, the primary problems with Truenamers are the following;

Bad scaling. You need to roll versus 15 plus twice the CR of a creature to affect it. You can only put one point in Truespeak per level, and attribute gains only add about a 0.4 gain every level, so you fall 0.6 behind the check every level. The check increases by about 1.5 per level here, and falling behind the check is actually desirable from a design standpoint, because spells are quadratic in power.

You have to keep a single skill at the max without a lot of skill points. Here, you either have 12 or 8 skill points, plus intelligence (see first post); you can afford it.

You can't do anything later in the day at low levels. Hero, you can actually cast spells a fair number of times; say you're a first level Expert that specializes in magic. You chose five schools, and max them out at four points, which you can afford to do (and you'll probably choose more, since, you know, 12 skill points per level before intelligence). You have charisma 18. You can now cast a grand total of 20 Cantrips total, if you so desire, just by taking ten, or 5 first level spells.



The main potential problem I see is the possibility of spamming otherwise level appropriate spells if you get the skill+attribute high enough, which, since everyone is capable of doing do, is mostly a matter of how high op the game is. Essentially, if everyone can cast fireballs practically at will, it isn't actually unbalancing, you just have to revise CRs a bit.

Could I ask precisely what concerns you have, so I can possibly revise?

[Jormengand]

Bad scaling. You need to roll versus 15 plus twice the CR of a creature to affect it. You can only put one point in Truespeak per level, and attribute gains only add about a 0.4 gain every level, so you fall 0.6 behind the check every level. The check increases by about 1.5 per level here, and falling behind the check is actually desirable from a design standpoint, because spells are quadratic in power.

Truenamers tend to take Skill Focus, Item Familiars, and other skill-boosts that make up for this. For a spellcaster, you suddenly rocket forwards in power.


You have to keep a single skill at the max without a lot of skill points. Here, you either have 12 or 8 skill points, plus intelligence (see first post); you can afford it.

Truenamers have so many skill points coming out the wazoo that they tend to sink them into random knowledges and take knowledge devotion; a wizard's not going to care at all that he's running out of skill points he never needed.


You can't do anything later in the day at low levels.

Medium bab and morningstar proficiency. Also because it's tracked per utterance, you get a lot of utterances off. Here, you get utterly ludicrous numbers of spells off without needing to try.


The main potential problem I see is the possibility of spamming otherwise level appropriate spells if you get the skill+attribute high enough, which, since everyone is capable of doing do, is mostly a matter of how high op the game is. Essentially, if everyone can cast fireballs practically at will, it isn't actually unbalancing, you just have to revise CRs a bit.

Cry harder, non-casters.

[Bobbybobby99]

You wouldn't actually rocket forward in raw power, you would just get to spam whatever spells you could cast. See the first post, and the note on minimum level. Furthermore, the gist of it would be that everyone would be a caster, they would just be varying degrees of caster; that's why I wanted to universalized the use of magic through skills.

Do you have any advice on how to fix the problems you perceive? Perhaps an HP drain per spell cast, based on spell level or some other check?

[Jormengand]

Do you have any advice on how to fix the problems you perceive? Perhaps an HP drain per spell cast, based on spell level or some other check?

First, tell me what this is meant to accomplish over Vancian Casting, and then maybe I'll be able to help.

[Bobbybobby99]

It's meant to, as I said before, let everyone be a spellcaster while also being other things, while also fitting it into the regular system. Ideally, it would be simpler and involve less book-keeping heavy than the regular system. Beyond those, it also fits in significantly better with traditional fantasy, most of which has nothing in common with the Vancian system.

Which of the following changes do you think would be the most productive?
1. Casting a spell deals damage equal to level, divided by half, rounded up. And/Or.
2. Add two to DC for every previously cast spell of the same skill, rather than two.

[Jormengand]

It's meant to, as I said before, let everyone be a spellcaster while also being other things, while also fitting it into the regular system. Ideally, it would be simpler and involve less book-keeping heavy than the regular system.

I would imagine that it would be easier to use spell points to limit how many spells one can cast per day, and have spells require skill checks/attack rolls/whatever as relevant to their actual functions, rather than an arbitrary extra roll that may as well be a truespeak check. Or you could just make people play truenamers to fit in with a sensible power level.

Increasing the DC faster would be more productive, but I still don't think it'll have the effect you want.

[Bobbybobby99]

You know... I think I'll just go with the +1 per spell cast being universal, rather than specific to the individual schools. It seems more in line with what I was thinking.

[Jormengand]

Okay, hold fire, let me show you something.

Let's have a wizard of level 20, with CHA (because now everyone uses Cha I guess?) of 28 (5 wish 5 levels 18 base) and a +2 to all CHA rolls for being an illumian (RoD) and skill focus: Conjuration and an item familiar (UA) to boost his conjuration skill by 23. This means a +67 before you start dumpster-diving for additional +1s that you might have missed. This equates to 25 9th-level spells before even needing to roll. This equates to 13 quickened 9th-level spells before needing to roll. (The last one in either case needs to be a conjuration, or he needs to change his skill focus). Next level he'll be able to intensify a couple of spells without needing to roll. That's not even difficult.

This kind of shenanigans without even trying is why I would strongly advise against this type of system. Sure, you can play the "If everyone is broken, no-one is" line, but really, why having limits on power at all if they're so easy to bypass?

[Dusk Raven]

I really would suggest looking up a d20 system called Iron Heroes. The magical rules in there are entirely optional, but there is a skill-based magic system in there.

That being said, the DCs in Iron Heroes aren't prohibitive, and they only really come into play when you want to add range, increase damage or number of targets, and other modifications. It's not designed to limit spells per day at all - that is accomplished by spells dealing nonlethal damage every time you try and use one.

Also, looking at your post, I suddenly thought it was odd that you would have skills to use spellcasting, but you don't need a skill to hit someone with a sword. I guess it's just generally assumed that your BAB and the like represents that, and the devs didn't want to make a skill where there was literally no reason not to put max points in at all times.

[Bobbybobby99]

Okay, hold fire, let me show you something.

Let's have a wizard of level 20, with CHA (because now everyone uses Cha I guess?) of 28 (5 wish 5 levels 18 base) and a +2 to all CHA rolls for being an illumian (RoD) and skill focus: Conjuration and an item familiar (UA) to boost his conjuration skill by 23. This means a +67 before you start dumpster-diving for additional +1s that you might have missed. This equates to 25 9th-level spells before even needing to roll. This equates to 13 quickened 9th-level spells before needing to roll. (The last one in either case needs to be a conjuration, or he needs to change his skill focus). Next level he'll be able to intensify a couple of spells without needing to roll. That's not even difficult.

This kind of shenanigans without even trying is why I would strongly advise against this type of system. Sure, you can play the "If everyone is broken, no-one is" line, but really, why having limits on power at all if they're so easy to bypass?

Item familiars are optional rules, need I remind, and the rest is perfectly fine. Without that, the bonus is down to 44, which is perfectly within power boundaries.
I do think I'll check out that system, but I would like to stick primarily to an altered from of DnD, not a wholly new system.

[mantia]

Several problems(?) or rather things that need to be addressed.

1. Divine magic. This works fine for arcane magic that is already in schools and is based off of personal skill and learning but, divine magic isn't so simple. Flavor wise divine magic is gained from a source that gives more as you become more powerful which doesn't tie nicely into a skill system. If we ignore that though a different problem arises. There are spells not allowed to arcane casters. They still have a school so if you have the conjuration skill for example you could cast Cure spells. Personally I don't want wizards to be able to do arcane only conjuration AND divine only conjuration (or any of the schools) with just one skill.

Solution: Separate divine only magic into special schools. Possible schools would include Positive, Negative(if you have Positive as a class skill Negative has to be cross-class and vice versa), Natural(for druid spells), Divine(the equivalent of the arcane Universal for things like Commune or Protection From ...). Any spells that are usable by divine or arcane classes (such as Cure can be used by Bards) would have both an arcane school and a divine school. When you learn the spell you need to decide if it is the arcane or divine version.

Note: Wizards would still be able to cast Cure spells but would need to put points into a different skill to do so.

2. And that brings us to learning spells. Divine casters get all the spells available to their class. Arcanes learn some every level and Wizards can learn more by spending gold and doing a Spellcraft check. Neither of these are practical for conversion to a skill system any class can use.

Solution: Have each spell level have an "unlock" level. Say (and these are random numbers not a recommendation" having 5 ranks in Evocation unlocks all 2nd level Evocation spells. Then have each rank you put into Evocation allows you to choose one or two Evocation spell(s) from any spell level(s) you have unlocked. Same goes for every school. You level up and put a rank into Evocation, Illusion, and Positive skills then you learn one spell from each of those schools. Tying back to what I said about spells that have a divine and arcane school, you can only learn each spell once and from one school. Say you want Cure Light Wounds. You level up and put a point into Conjuration and Positive. You decide to learn Cure Light as your Conjuration spell and Bless as your Positive spell. Next level you put a point into Positive but you can't use that point to learn Cure Light. Now whenever you cast Cure Light Wounds you make a Conjuration check when that guy next to you is making a Positive check. Since Conjuration uses Charisma as it's key skill and Positive uses Wisdom it might have been better for your character to learn Cure Light as a Positive spell if you have a higher Wisdom. Same goes for learning Fireball as Evocation or Fire.

3. And the reason why Wisdom should be for Divine schools and not as the save DC. The way it is now you want to be a great caster you have to have all three mental scores as high as possible. Charisma for the base boost, Intelligence for the more skill points to have a wider range of spells, and Wisdom for save DC. That's just brutal. It means none of your mental scores can be dump stats so you are going to be a crappy physical guy. Most casters have a decent Dexterity because they can't wear armor. But you probably aren't going to have 4 high stats so whoops.

Solution: Make Charisma be the base stat and the save DC for arcane schools and Wisdom be the base stat and save DC for divine and elemental schools. This way you only need 2 high mental scores to learn either arcane or divine and if you have all three high then go ahead and learn both arcane and divine.

4. Let's go to armor since I mentioned it in the last one. If a fighter learns arcane magic then he's going to be upset about arcane spell failure. Sure he could learn Divine magic but that limits him right?

Solution: Have arcane spell failure reduce the check. Say (again random numbers i can't balance things for crap of the top of my head) every 5% arcane spell failure applies a -2 to arcane skills. This way if you are skilled enough you can still cast low level magic in armor but it would be hard to cast higher level stuff. You are still going to need a hand free (unless you have some kind of feat that gives the Duskblade power to channel through weapons...which is a feat I really want now) so having a shield or a two-handed/off-hand weapon might be difficult for the fighter/ranger but it's workable.

5.The extra Class Skills and skill points. Can't just say "chosen freely" it has to be chosen from the magic skills. Or else you are going to get Barbarians with Open Lock. The flat skill points bother me. Let's say Int is now a magic based stat and anyone who wants magic wants high Int. So 1st level mage type has 18 Int and the Rogue who wants to dabble has 12. The mage has 4x the number of skill points from Int than the Rogue. So he should have 4x the amount of magic. But then they both get +6. The mage is at 22 and the Rogue is at 10. This is alot closer to the mage having only 2x the amount of magic the rouge does. Level 2 the mage has 32 the rogue has 20. This is close to 1.5x. 42...30=1.3x. You get the point? By having flat amount per level the Rouge with low Int is much closer to the mage with high Int than he should be. Not to mention the fact that rouge could just use the extra points to his mundane skills and be a ridiculous skill monkey.

Solution: Make Intelligence more important to casters. Instead of the flat points lets do this. Each bonus(not penalty) point of Int should give 1 or 2 (again I can't balance) magic points per level(x4 at level one) in addition to normal skill points. These can only be used on magic skills. Normal skills points can be used on magic skills in addition to these points. This means that the 18 Int mage will always have 4x the amount of magic as the 12 Int Rogue as long as the Rogue doesn't pour large amounts of normal skill points into magic(sacrificing his skill monkeyness). As an added idea instead of having a flat amount of bonus magic class skills, every character at level one gets 1+(1 x Int bonus) (minimum 0) bonus magic class skills(kinda like languages). This means a 10 or 11 Int character only has 1 magic class skills and needs to use normal skill points to increase them and a 9 or lower Int character has to cross-class with normal skill points(of which he has few) to learn any magic. In the meantime those with Int 12 or more are getting "free" points to put into magic. It has a nice bonus of making it so not everyone can get magic easily but everyone CAN get it if they try hard enough.

6. Prepared magic. It's passed on. No more. Ceased to be. It has gone to meet it's maker. It's a stiff. Bereft of life, rests in peace. Pushing up the daises. The process is history. Off the twig. Kicked the bucket, it's shuffled off it's mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible. IT IS AN EX-MECHANIC.

Solution: There really isn't one. But what it means is that there is no longer a difference between Wizards and Sorcerers since now spells per day and spells known would be the same in same stat same choices characters. Wizards of course will have the bonus feats still meaning Sorcerers are also dead(or perhaps they just always wanted to be a lumberjack).

7. We are going to have to change everything. Some classes already have spell casting. Sorcerers are easy. Since they are now weaker than Wizards we get rid of them. But why have a Wizard when an 18 Int Rogue is pretty strong too.

Solution: I say the surviving spellcasters get some nice bonuses. Wizards get an extra say 6 bonus arcane magic class skills. Clerics get Positive or Negative, one of the elements, and Divine. Druids get Nature and 2 of the elements. Rangers get Nature. Paladins get Divine or Positive. Bards get Illusion, Enchantment, and/or Conjuration (pick 2). Let's also say they all get a few more magic points per level too. Now spellcaster classes are viable, gish classes stay a little more gishy, and you can still have a Wizard with 18 Int at level one with all 8 arcane plus 3 of the divine/elements or a 18 Int Cleric with Pos/Neg, Nature, Divine, one element, and four chosen from the other elements or arcanes. Meanwhile your 18 Int Fighter has 5 options making him less magical than a Ranger. Just because everyone can be a caster doesn't mean they are all as good as that Wizard who has spent his entire life learning.


These are all just things I saw. Keep them in mind as you turn this into a workable idea.

[mantia]

Hmm I liked it better when each school had it's DC rise separately. Maybe instead of stacking them to reduce total spells just have each school rise faster say +4.

Other options include:
1. A debt system. You cast 5 Evocations and 2 Illusions. Evocation is now at +5 and Illusions is now at +2. You are a level 1 Fighter. After 8 hours of sleep your Evocation is now at +4 and your Illusion is at +1. Your Abjuration which you didn't use is still at +0. This also allows for spellcaster classes to have faster recharge to reward them for lesser combat abilities.

2. Higher spells are more draining. Your level 0's add +1 to the school. Level 1's +2. 2's +3. And so on. This prevents spamming. If you do this though remove the +3 base DC per spell level.

once more these are guidelines you balance the numbers.

[Bobbybobby99]

Woo, constructive ideas!

1. My personal thought for that was just abandoning the basic cleric list, and replacing it with the Shugenja schools. My basic intention, for the base schools, is that they would only apply to the wizard/sorcerer spell list, rather than overall, and then you would have the four elements to cover the divine stuff. The inflict line would then just be part of necromancy. That seemed like it would involve lower levels of customization and rulings, and stick fairly close to the basic system.
Also, Shugenja are in complete divine (and if you lack access to that coughdndtoolscough)

2. That's a fairly good idea. I would think 2 spells for every skill rank would be good, since most of the time you'll have several. Unlocking levels seems like it might be adding too much complexity, though; the minimum levels should work. I considered just having complete access, rather than spells known, but in retrospect that might be too much flexibility without implementing some sort of Sha'ir mechanic.

3. Good idea for having the divine schools (Air, Water, Earth, Fire) be wisdom based, in order to avoid spellcasters being physically terrible. Didn't think of that.

4. I'll implement that, but only with a +1, since that more accurately models the increased chance for failure.

5. Note that this is being paired with generic classes, since I figured it would be good to go the extra mile with universality :smallwink:, so the extra skill points are freely chosen class skills work better than when the classes have more clearly defined concepts, and the extra skill points are partly a matter of how having more skill points not just be magic allows for there to be more specialist characters. If you had six skill points that had to be magic, then you couldn't play, say, an Illusionist as easily.

6 and 7. Mostly not relevant with generic classes.

8? I think I'll keep the +1 to all, simply because it decreases bookkeeping. I considered otherwise, but part of the reason for this system in the first place is simplicity, and I'd like to retain that. In retrospect, doing otherwise also penalizes specialization.

Edit: Version 2 is now in the first post. Further thoughts?

[mantia]

Woo, constructive ideas!

1. My personal thought for that was just abandoning the basic cleric list, and replacing it with the Shugenja schools. My basic intention, for the base schools, is that they would only apply to the wizard/sorcerer spell list, rather than overall, and then you would have the four elements to cover the divine stuff. The inflict line would then just be part of necromancy. That seemed like it would involve lower levels of customization and rulings, and stick fairly close to the basic system.

Well don't forget to add Cure to conjuration then. As it stands I only see Goodberry for healing options in Earth.


2. That's a fairly good idea. I would think 1 spell for every skill rank would be good, since most of the time you'll have several. Unlocking levels seems like it might be adding too much complexity, though; the minimum levels should work.

The issue with it just being level based is that you could bend the system. Let's say 5th level spells are available at level 9. At level 8 I have only 6 points in Conjuration and some 0 and 1st level spells. At level 9 I put 1 point into Conj and have a 5th level spell. Whether or not I can cast that spell depends on the final rules and how well I min maxed but it seems weird. If instead 5th level spells are available if you have 12 ranks, you can still get that 5th level spell at level 9 but it makes more sense and you have to invest more points in the skill.


5. Note that this is being paired with generic classes, since I figured it would be good to go the extra mile with universality :smallwink:, so the extra skill points are freely chosen class skills work better than when the classes have more clearly defined concepts, and the extra skill points are partly a matter of how having more skill points not just be magic allow for there to be more specialist characters.

Do you have these classes built? Kinda interested to see how the system works as a whole.


8? You know, so did I. I think I'll make that change (altering the number a bit after some calculations)

I put other suggestions you might have missed if you saw the post before the edit went through. So here they are with some augmentation due to generic classes.

Other options include:
1. A debt system. You cast 5 Evocations and 2 Illusions. Evocation is now at +5 and Illusions is now at +2. You are level 1. After 8 hours of sleep your Evocation is now at +4 and your Illusion is at +1. Your Abjuration which you didn't use is still at +0. Your DC's decrease down to the base at a rate of -1 to DC/level. Kinda like regaining health. One per level per day.

2. Higher spells are more draining. Your level 0's add +1 to the school. Level 1's +2. 2's +3. And so on. This prevents spamming. If you do this though remove the +3 base DC per spell level.

[Bobbybobby99]

The Water school has healing, and those aren't the complete spell lists; they're additions to the basic Shugenja spell list. I may have gone a bit edit happy while you were composing that, by the way; I occasionally get indecisive.

You might be able to cast the higher level spells with a lower number of ranks, with the minimum levels, but only if you get lucky. It also emphasizes that a higher level character is still better at magic overall than the lower level characters, even if they have the same invested skills.

Generic classes can be found here, using only the Expert and the Warrior. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm

The debt system seems like it might be too restrictive, and the other one seems abusable.

Edit: You know what, I'll just include the existing Shugenja spells. People won't be able to tell between the additions and the actual spell list, so it's legal.

Edit: Spell list updated (goodness that was tedious). What further thoughts do you (or anyone else looking at this thread) have?

[Dusk Raven]

4. I'll implement that, but only with a +1, since that more accurately models the increased chance for failure.

I like that this thread is going places, but it's moving really fast so I'll just leave this comment here and have a more detailed list of suggestions later: Why not just have the armor check penalty apply to magic skills? That's what Iron Heroes does, although in that case it's double the normal penalty. Spell failure chance correlates with ACP for the most part, anyway. Less math if you do it that way. By the way, Iron Heroes is an altered form of D&D, not a new system. There's changes, but they're all stuff I approve of.

[Bobbybobby99]

Good point; that certainly is simpler, though I think I'll avoid any doubling. Off to the edit function!