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ZenBear
2015-11-22, 01:36 PM
My friend wants to play a Death Cleric/Necromancer Wizard hybrid, and rather than making him multiclass into the two and have a really subpar character we want to come up with a base class that combines Cleric/Wizard with options for the different domains/colleges. I don't have a lot of time for homebrewing these days and I don't have a lot of familiarity with full casters so any help would be greatly appreciated. Has anyone made this already and can link it for me? If you have ideas please feel free to post. I will do the same as time allows.

Edit: sorry, I'm asking for 5th Edition.

noob
2015-11-22, 01:41 PM
That will be hard to combine two classes and to not have too much powers.
One option is to just pick up a spell list with some wizard spells and some cleric spells while trying to not have too much powerful spells(if you remove the healing and damage spells and the player will suddenly become smarter and play better so have some damage spells else the player will do more tactics).

Flashy
2015-11-22, 04:26 PM
What specifically does your friend want out of a character that isn't well covered by refluffing straight necromancer or cleric?

ZenBear
2015-11-22, 08:27 PM
What specifically does your friend want out of a character that isn't well covered by refluffing straight necromancer or cleric?

I asked him if he wants to be a Death Cleric or Necromancer Wizard and he responded "Yes."

The characters are all supposed to be demigods of a certain domain. He chose Necromancy and Alchemy, inspired by the character Truth from Full Metal Alchemist. He wants to be able to manipulate both the spiritual and scientific aspects of necromancy, hence the Theurge class.

Mr.Moron
2015-11-22, 10:41 PM
Quick & Dirty:
Untested, top of my head, balance not guaranteed. Use cleric as a base.



No longer gains increases to channel divinity uses at 6th & 18th levels. Instead gains a single increase at 13th level.
Lose: Medium Armor Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, Charisma Saving Throw Proficiency, Divine Intervention, Improved Divine Intervention.
Gain: Proficiency in intelligence saving throws.
Gain: Necromancy Arcane Tradition
Gain: Access to the wizard spell class list for the Necromancy, Transmutation, Divination and Illusion schools. These are maintained in a spellbook and use Int and their key spell casting stat.
Gain: Arcane Recovery, Spell Mastery, Signature Spell
Change: Domain Features are now gained at 6th (up from 2nd), 10th (up from 6th), 14th (up from 8th). These match wizard arcane tradition levels. At each of these levels CHOOSE ONE between domain feature and wizard arcane tradition feature. The Domain feature at 17th is no longer gained. You may give up an "Ability Score Increase" to pick up an Arcane Tradition/Domain feature you've previously passed up by taking the alternative.
Change: At levels 4, 9, and 12 lose 1 level of spell casting progression. Meaning at 20th level you'd count as 17th level caster.
Change: Strike 8th & 9th level spells from both class lists. These slots can still be used cast lower level spells with increased effects.

GAZ
2015-11-23, 04:44 AM
In 5th edition I think the immediate response to any Master of x-magic is to modify the Favored Soul Sorcerous Origin.

Take the Death Domain, add it to Sorcerer spells known. Trade extra arms and armor profs for Channel Divinity. Get more channel divinity instead of the extra attack at 6. Steal the Wizard School of Necromancy capstone for the level 14 thing. Maybe a mix of the Necromancy lvl 2 ability and the Death Domain 2 or 6 would make a good match for the Favored Soul's 18.

Quick and easy.

Arkhios
2015-11-24, 01:16 AM
Wouldn't it be more fair to whip up a new class in general which could satisfy multiple needs and not just necromancer flavor?

I had this realization yesterday, when I saw this thread, that many of the domains have somewhat passable synergies with arcane schools, so why not combine the two, in a way that each domain would dictate which schools of magic were emphasized within their Theurgies.

E.G.
Death Domain + Necromancy (forbid illusion)

Light Domain + Evocation (forbid enchantment)

Nature Domain + Transmutation (forbid abjuration)

Life Domain + Conjuration (forbid divination)

War Domain + Enchantment (forbid evocation)

Knowledge Domain + Divination (forbid conjuration)

Arcana Domain + Abjuration (forbid transmutation)

Trickery Domain + Illusion (forbid necromancy)

Given the above suggestion (which aren't in any particular order, admittedly) each Theurge might have to choose from the combinations and each would affect their spells known some way. Maybe even so that they would be forbidden to learn a spell from certain schools (as suggested in brackets; spells gained from domain over-rule this restriction.)

Might even limit spells known further: gain the domain spells and a number of spells equal to their Intelligence modifier + half of their Theurge level (minimum 2), chosen from of their synergy school from cleric and wizard lists at each level of spells. The Theurge could replace one of these additional spells at each Theurge level gained afterwards (like bards, sorcerers, and warlocks do), as long as one of these spells per each spell level known (and able to cast) remains from the synergy school. At 11th level and further, a class feature might grant more spells to even up the loss of domain spell lists, but again limited by their Theurgy (maybe any 2 from any schools except the forbidden one).
While it's true that original Mystic Theurge was a combined class caster with two casting stats, I wouldn't personally force a stand-alone class to have two separate spellcasting stats. However, given the the class origins, I think incorporating Intelligence to spellcasting in some way is plausible. As suggested, cleric being base for the class design, Wisdom should be their primary casting stat and intelligence giving them more spells, much like a wizard.

Might get some of the features from their chosen domain, but definitely not all of them; likewise they might get some of their respective arcane tradition features, but again not all of them.

Restrict Theurge only to light armor by default, maybe all simple weapons, maybe less, 1d8 hit die and wisdom as their spellcasting ability (as their repertoire comes from willpower and determination for single-minded expertise).

In 3.5, IIRC, a Mystic Theurge could combine two spells from 1st through 5th levels to a single casting of spell, so that definitely needs to stay. Unlimited use is not great, ever, so I'd suggest limiting it to a certain amount per day or per rest. Maybe an amount determined by your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) until next long rest. Can cast 2 spells of same level and with same casting time as 1 action, but expending only one spell slot. The spells must be from 1st to 5th level spells.

A summary:
Hit Die: d8 + con
Armor and weapon proficiencies: Light armor, dagger, quarterstaff, mace, club, light crossbow, dart, sling
Saving throw proficiencies: intelligence and wisdom (as suggested by Mr.Moron)
Skills: Religion and Arcana, plus 1 from a list (maybe all intelligence and wisdom related?)
Spellcasting Focus: Holy Symbol or Arcane Focus (a decision that once made cannot be changed)
Spellcasting Stat: wisdom
Cantrips: You learn a total of 3 cantrips at first level, one of which must be from your Theurge Synergy school, and two from any school: one from cleric list, and one from wizard list. At 5th level you gain one cantrip from either cleric or wizard list, and again at 11th level you gain another cantrip from cleric of wizard list, but it must be from different list than the one gained at 5th level.
Ability Score Improvements: 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th levels.
Key features:
1st level: Theurge Synergy (Domain and School Synergy, one of the 1st-level Divine Domain features1 - your choice), Spellcasting
2nd level: Theurgy (Intelligence modifier, or 1, until you finish a long rest), 2nd-level Arcane Tradition feature2.
6th level: 6th-level Divine Domain feature or Arcane Tradition feature feature (your choice)2
10th level: 8th-level Divine Domain feature or 10th-level Arcane Tradition feature2 (If you chose Divine Domain feature at 6th level, you must take the Arcane Tradition feature, or vice versa)
11th level: School Savant (at 11th, 13th, 15th, and 17th levels, add 2 spells from 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th levels to your list of spells known, chosen from cleric and wizard lists provided you can cast them, barring the school forbidden by Theurge Synergy)
20th level: Mystic Theurge (may combine spells from 6th through 9th levels with one casting, and you regain all Theurgy uses once you finish a short rest)
1: If a 1st level divine domain feature gives you bonus proficiencies, it gives you a diminished proficiency instead. If you would have gained Martial Weapons proficiency, you gain proficiency to all simple weapons and one martial weapon of your choice. If you would have gained Heavy Armor proficiency, you gain proficiency in medium armor and shields instead.
2: Your Arcane Tradition features depend on your Intelligence modifier and your Divine Domain features depend on your Wisdom modifier.

GAZ
2015-12-07, 02:07 PM
Arkhios, cool. I like it. Which means I'm going to offer a bunch of unsolicited commentary.

Rather than ban schools or severally limit spells known, why not just start with a smaller class spell list? There should be room to grow if a Cleric domain & a Wizard school are both being added on. My thoughts are either take the Cleric list and remove any spell that's also a domain spell or just build a custom list based on the themes established by the Thaumaturgy cantrip. After all, the Cleric can memorize any spell on its list and that's supposedly the starting point.

I don't think all of those potential banned schools are right either, if that is the final chosen tack. Undead concealed beneath illusory flesh masks, light themed casters dazzling/hypnotizing, reading the future in entrails, and fire/lightning blasty war magiks are all classics that are disallowed by the current proposal.


That two spells as one action thing sounds waaaay OP and does not at all have precedent. No Mystic Theurge in any previous edition of D&D from 3.0, 3.5, or 4e had any such ability. The closest I could think of was that Pathfinder MT could do so 1/day at lvl class lvl 10/character lvl 16+. The closest 5e things I can find are Valor bards or Eldritch Knights getting weapon attack bonus actions after spell castings. Let's take that as a starting point and just try to get an arcane/divine synergy instead of an arcane/melee one.

Mystic Synergy: Beginning at 2nd level, when you use your action to cast a Mystic Theurge cantrip, you can cast one Mystic Theurge cantrip as a bonus action. You may use this feature a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (a minimum of once). You regain expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Your Mystic Synergy features gains expanded uses when you reach 5th level, 20th level, and any other level where you gain access to higher level spell slots such as 7th, 9th, 11th, and so on.

Improved Mystic Synergy: Beginning at 6th level, when you use your action to cast a Mystic Theurge cantrip, you can cast one Mystic Theurge spell as a bonus action. This spell must be lower than the highest level spell you can cast and cannot be above 5th level.

Greater Mystic Synergy: At 20th level, when you use your action to cast a Mystic Theurge cantrip; Mystic Theurge Domain spell; or Mystic Theurge School spell, you can cast one Mystic Theurge spell as a bonus action.
At 20th level, when you roll initiative and have no uses of Mystic Synergy left, you regain one use.

Another option might be allowing Channel Divinity and spending uses from that for the same effect.

Maybe both offer all of both Divine Domain features and Arcane Tradition features? No Channel Divinity, no spellbook, and no Arcane Recovery leaves one hungry for perks and options. Why not just get every bit that's left over?

Arkhios
2015-12-08, 04:10 AM
Arkhios, cool. I like it. Which means I'm going to offer a bunch of unsolicited commentary.

Rather than ban schools or severally limit spells known, why not just start with a smaller class spell list? There should be room to grow if a Cleric domain & a Wizard school are both being added on. My thoughts are either take the Cleric list and remove any spell that's also a domain spell or just build a custom list based on the themes established by the Thaumaturgy cantrip. After all, the Cleric can memorize any spell on its list and that's supposedly the starting point.

I don't think all of those potential banned schools are right either, if that is the final chosen tack. Undead concealed beneath illusory flesh masks, light themed casters dazzling/hypnotizing, reading the future in entrails, and fire/lightning blasty war magiks are all classics that are disallowed by the current proposal.


That two spells as one action thing sounds waaaay OP and does not at all have precedent. No Mystic Theurge in any previous edition of D&D from 3.0, 3.5, or 4e had any such ability. The closest I could think of was that Pathfinder MT could do so 1/day at lvl class lvl 10/character lvl 16+. The closest 5e things I can find are Valor bards or Eldritch Knights getting weapon attack bonus actions after spell castings. Let's take that as a starting point and just try to get an arcane/divine synergy instead of an arcane/melee one.

Mystic Synergy: Beginning at 2nd level, when you use your action to cast a Mystic Theurge cantrip, you can cast one Mystic Theurge cantrip as a bonus action. You may use this feature a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (a minimum of once). You regain expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Your Mystic Synergy features gains expanded uses when you reach 5th level, 20th level, and any other level where you gain access to higher level spell slots such as 7th, 9th, 11th, and so on.

Improved Mystic Synergy: Beginning at 6th level, when you use your action to cast a Mystic Theurge cantrip, you can cast one Mystic Theurge spell as a bonus action. This spell must be lower than the highest level spell you can cast and cannot be above 5th level.

Greater Mystic Synergy: At 20th level, when you use your action to cast a Mystic Theurge cantrip; Mystic Theurge Domain spell; or Mystic Theurge School spell, you can cast one Mystic Theurge spell as a bonus action.
At 20th level, when you roll initiative and have no uses of Mystic Synergy left, you regain one use.

Another option might be allowing Channel Divinity and spending uses from that for the same effect.

Maybe both offer all of both Divine Domain features and Arcane Tradition features? No Channel Divinity, no spellbook, and no Arcane Recovery leaves one hungry for perks and options. Why not just get every bit that's left over?

Glad you liked it, and no, none of the suggested paired domains & schools were final. As said, they were only suggestions, and possible guidelines and ideas for further design.
Afterwards I agree that the ability to cast two spells with one action and one spell slot is too powerful, even if it could be done once per rest or once per long rest.

I believe it might be best to build up a spell list for all Theurges, and maybe in addition grant them bonus spells known wrapped up as the thematic domain & school pairings as a guideline, but that's too much work I'm willing to do alone :P