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Legendxp
2015-11-25, 03:55 PM
For those of you who don't know, an "Endbringer" is a creature of apocalyptic power from the web serialization Worm, by Wildbow. (Link Here (https://parahumans.wordpress.com/)) The specific Endbringer I will be trying to recreate is Behemoth. (More on him here (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Behemoth)) I am hoping to recreate most of his abilities by just taking abilities from other creatures that already exist in D&D. This will be my first attempt homebrewing a creature and I might need some assistance. (Plus I figured other people might enjoy this)

So without further ado...

Endbringer Type
Features: An endbringer has the following features.


d20 Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.


Traits: An endbringer possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).


Most Endbringers are blind (and thus immune to gaze attacks), these endbringers see using alternative methods, make sure to check its entry.
No Wisdom score
Immunity to mind-affecting effects, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain.
Not at risk of death from massive damage.
Cannot be raised or resurrected.
Gains bonus hitpoint based on its size: Fine (0), Diminutive (0), Tiny (0), Small (10), Medium (20), Large (30), Huge (40), Gargantuan (60), Colossal (80).
Proficient with its natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with any weapon mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with no armor.
Scaling Damage Reduction based on remaining health: 100% (10), 75% (20), 50% (50), 25% (100)
Regeneration 40
Endbringers do not eat, sleep, or breathe.
Endbringers have no gender


http://pre04.deviantart.net/f0d3/th/pre/i/2015/238/0/4/worm____behemoth_3_by_dertodesbote-d8f20tw.jpg

Behemoth, the Cape-Killer



Size / Type:
Gargantuan Endbringer (Chaotic, Earth, Evil, Extraplanar, Fire)


Hit Dice:
30d20 +660 (990hp)


Initiative:
+9 (+5 Dex +4 Improved Initiative)


Speed:
30 ft (6 squares)


Burrow Speed:
100 ft (20 squares)


Armor Class:
41 (10 +5 Dex +30 Natural -4 Size)


Melee Attack:
51 (30 +25 Str -4 Size)


Ranged Attack:
31 (30 +5 Dex -4 Size)


Slam:
8d6+25+2d6 Fire | 18-20/×3


Bite:
4d6+25+6d6 Fire | 18-20/×3


Space / Reach:
20 ft /20 ft


Special Attacks:
Heat Generation, Lightning Generation, Roar, Shockwaves


Special Qualities:
Endbringer Traits, Energy Redirection, Scaling Damage Reduction, Regeneration 40, Tremorsense 200 ft, Radiation Field, Kill Aura, Multiplanar Core, Death Blow


Fort Save:
Fort 38 (18 base +18 Con +2 Great Fortitude)


Ref Save
Ref 23 (18 base +5 Dex)


Will Save
Will 22 (18 base +0 Wis +4 Epic Will)


Abilities:
Str 25, Dex 5, Con 18, Int 2, Wis -, Cha 0


Skills:
Climb +45, Intimidate +20, Jump +75, Listen +20, Spot +20


Feats:
Alertness, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Epic Toughness, Epic Will, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Improved Toughness, Dire Charge, Legendary Leaper, Legendary Climber


Environment:
Earth Bet


Organization:
Solitary


Challenge Rating
20


Treasure:
Behemoth's Leg (Material Component)


Alignment:
Always Chaotic Evil



Behemoth's abilities:

Lightning Generation (Pa): As a standard action Behemoth can generate a bolt of chain lightning. This creates an electrical discharge that begins as a single stroke commencing from his fingertips. This lightning strikes one object or creature within 400 ft initially, then arcs to other targets.

The bolt deals 20d6 points of electricity damage to the primary target. Each target can attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage (Save DC ??). After it strikes, it can arc to any number of secondary targets. The secondary bolts each strike one target and deal half as much damage as the primary one did (rounded down). Behemoth chooses secondary targets as he likes, but they must all be within 30 feet of the primary target, and no target can be struck more than once. He can choose to affect fewer secondary targets than the maximum.

Alternatively, as a standard action Behemoth can shoot a 200 ft line of lightning. It deals 10d6 points of electricity damage to each creature within its area. Each target can attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage (Save DC ??). The lightning sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in its path. It can melt metals with a low melting point, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, or bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, it may continue beyond the barrier if it's range permits; otherwise, it stops at the barrier.

Heat Generation (Pa): As a standard action Behemoth can create an explosion of fire anywhere within a 400 ft radius of him that deals 10d6 to every creature within a smaller 20-ft.-radius spread. The explosion sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. There must be line of effect between Behemoth and it's target

Thunderous Roar (Pa): Once per minute, as a full-round action action Behemoth emits an ear-splitting roar that deals 10d6 sonic damage to all creatures and objects within a 500ft radius (All creatures and/or objects made of glass, crystal, or some other fragile mineral take 20d6 damage instead). All creatures must make a fortitude save or suffer from the following effects:

Failed Save

Dealt 10d6 sonic damage
Blinded for one minute
Deafened for one minute
Stunned for one round
Knocked Prone


Successful Save

Dealt 1/2 of 10d6 damage
Deafened for 1d6 rounds
Dazed for one round



Shockwaves (Pa): As a full-round action Behemoth creates an intense but highly localized tremor that breaks the ground in a 80 ft radius spread centered on him. The shockwave knocks creatures down, collapses structures, opens cracks in the ground, and more. The effect lasts for 1 round, during which time creatures on the ground can’t move or attack. The earthquake affects all terrain, vegetation, structures, and creatures in the area. The specific effect of an earthquake spell depends on the nature of the terrain where it is cast.



Cave, Cavern, or Tunnel - The quake collapses the roof, dealing 8d6 points of bludgeoning damage to any creature caught under the cave-in (Reflex DC 15 half) and pinning that creature beneath the rubble (see below). An earthquake centered on the roof of a very large cavern could also endanger those outside the actual area but below the falling debris.
Cliffs - The earthquake causes a cliff to crumble, creating a landslide that travels horizontally as far as it fell vertically. Any creature in the path takes 8d6 points of bludgeoning damage (Reflex DC 15 half) and is pinned beneath the rubble (see below).
Open Ground - Each creature standing in the area must make a DC 15 Reflex save or fall down. Fissures open in the earth, and every creature on the ground has a 25% chance to fall into one (Reflex DC 20 to avoid a fissure). At the end of the spell, all fissures grind shut, dealing 10d6 points of pressure damage per round to any creatures still trapped within.
Structure - Any structure standing on open ground takes 1000 points of damage, enough to collapse a structure built of steel or reinforced concrete. Hardness does not reduce this damage, nor is it halved as damage dealt to objects normally is. Any creature caught inside a collapsing structure takes 8d6 points of bludgeoning damage (Reflex DC 15 half) and is pinned beneath the rubble (see below).
River, Lake, or Marsh - Fissures open underneath the water, draining away the water from that area and forming muddy ground. Soggy marsh or swampland becomes quicksand for the duration of the spell, sucking down creatures and structures. Each creature in the area must make a DC 15 Reflex save or sink down in the mud and quicksand. At the end of the spell, the rest of the body of water rushes in to replace the drained water, possibly drowning those caught in the mud.
Pinned beneath Rubble - Any creature pinned beneath rubble takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per minute while pinned. If a pinned character falls unconscious, he or she must make a DC 15 Constitution check or take 1d6 points of lethal damage each minute thereafter until freed or dead.


Kill Aura (Pa): Any creature that approaches within 20ft of Behemoth immediately takes 10d6 points of fire damage and an additional 10d6 points of fire damage per round (no save). Creatures killed by this damage are disintegrated, leaving no corpses behind.

Radiation Field (Pa): Once per minute, Behemoth can release a deadly burst of radiation from his body as a full-round action. This is a 100 ft. radius burst centered on Behemoth. Creatures within it suffer 1d4 con damage unless they succeed on a fortitude save (DC ??).

Regeneration (Pa): Behemoth regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate effect. If Behemoth fails its save against an effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the effect instead reduces Behemoth's hitpoints to 1. Behemoth is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.

Behemoth does not fall unconscious when taking more nonlethal damage than its hit points +10 or when reduced to 0 hitpoints or less. Instead, it will immediately start to burrow downwards at maximum speed until it reaches a depth of about 10 miles, in the liquid mantle, where it will fall into a hibernation-like sleep for 2d4 months until it awakens again, fully healed. Behemoth can be slain only by raising completely and utterly destroying it's Multiplanar Core (see below).

If Behemoth loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

Energy Redirection (Pa): Energy immunities that can change once per round as an immediate action. (Limited to one at a time: physical, electricity, fire, light, and sonic)

Multiplanar Core (Pa): Whenever Behemoth is dealt damage when he is at 0 or less hitpoints -OR- whenever he would be dealt enough damage to reduce him to 0 or less hitpoints, Behemoth's damage reduction increases to 1,000. Behemoth may take actions as normal even when reduced to 0 or less hitpoints. Behemoth dies when at -100 hitpoints instead of at -10 hitpoints.

Death Blow (Pa): Upon defeat, Behemoth self-destructs in a detonation of nuclear proportions dealing 50d6 points of fire damage, 50d6 points of electricity damage, 50d6 points of sonic damage, and 50d6 points of untyped damage to all creatures and objects within a two mile radius. Each target can attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage (Save DC ??). All surviving creatures within this radius are blinded and deafened (no save) for 48 hours.


Feats:



Alertness
+2 bonus on all Listen checks and Spot checks.


Blind- Fight
See SRD entry.


Cleave
If you deal enough damage to a creature to make it drop, you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach.


Combat Reflexes
You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.


Great Cleave
There is no limit to the number of times you can Cleave per round.


Great Fortitude
+2 bonus on all Fortitude saving throws.


Epic Toughness
+30 hitpoints


Epic Will
+4 bonus on all Will saving throws.


Improved Bull Rush
When you perform a bull rush you do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender. You also gain a +4 bonus on the opposed Strength check.


Improved Initiative
+4 bonus on initiative checks.


Power Attack
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls.


Improved Toughness
+1 hp per hit-die.


Dire Charge
If you charge a foe during the first round of combat, you can make a full attack.


Legendary Climber
You can ignore any check penalties for rapid climbing.


Legendary Leaper
You need only move 5 feet in a straight line to make a running jump.




If anybody has any suggestions of any good supernatural abilities and their effects from D&D I would greatly appreciate it.

EDIT: THE ABILITIES SCORES LISTED ARE THE ABILITY MODIFIERS NOT THE ACTUAL ABILITY SCORES!

I've listed the spells that I'll be basing Behemoth's abilities on. Don't worry all of the spells/feats are OGL (Open Game License).

All abilities with the (Pa) modifier are 'Parahuman' abilities (Treat them as supernatural abilities)

Vauron
2015-11-27, 09:57 AM
I suspect that the Herokiller isn't gonna translate well. Even if we just go with the feats that it restricted itself to most of the time, it'll be pretty nasty. Never mind the fact that I seem to recall that the Endbringers were all jobbing it. Sure, the 100 meter* auto-kill field could be represented with something like "Killing Aura: At the start of Behemoth's turn, all enemies within 330 feet take 30 fire damage.". However, Dynakinesis is so inherently versatile that I don't think it could really be mechanically stated up.

That ignores the even nastier traits of how nigh-impossible it is to actually harm an Endbringer. To put it in dnd terms, Behemoth basically has both regeneration that can not be overcome by anything that does not explicitly overcome all forms of regeneration, and a steadily rising amount of DR and ER. When you're attacking its weakest and outermost layer, it might 'just' have DR and ER 10. Once you get through a layer or two to the 'bones', you might be looking at DR/ER 1000, never mind the core which would just have a trait in the vein of 'The core can not be destroyed by damage. Also construct immunities. Also a fort save of Yes.'

The fact that Behemoth's 'body' is more like the projection created by the Astral Projection spell doesn't help either.

*I think that was the radius.

Drynwyn
2015-11-27, 11:50 AM
Dynakinesis could probably be represented by giving him every spell and psionic power with the [fire] descriptor usable as an at-will supernatural ability.

That said your current statblock gives him both the Outsider and Aberration type, which is impossible by RAW since they're both creature types and determine hit dice, feats, and BAB. Instead he would be an Abberation (Extraplanar) or an Outsider (Chaotic).

Eldan
2015-11-27, 12:49 PM
Well, here's my attempt:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?386411-Behemoth

Based on the Tarrasque. I've represented the energy abilities with a longer list of immunities, the reflective carapace, some spells, a breath weapon, a sonic roar and a death aura.

Legendxp
2015-11-27, 02:09 PM
@Vauron - Yeah this going to be a tough one to recreate accurately. I'm doing a superhero campaign in the wormverse and I was hoping that I could recreate some of the more iconic heroes and villians (excepting scion of course, I have no idea how I'd recreate that one accurately)

@Drynwyn - I see your point, I'll fix this. Also thanks, Its been awhile since I've last played D&D.

@Eldan - Absolutely glorius, you don't mind if I borrow some of your behemoth's traits to fill out mine do you?

awa
2015-11-28, 07:42 PM
why 1 int? It might act dumb but its definitely not. also you gave it a very high jump mod but did it ever jump in the story? i think it mostly just sat there and blasted stuff.
Its reflex also seems really high i don't recall it ever bothering to dodge anything.
I would also give it some ability to power through obstructions like walls of force ect.
how are you doing its ability scores are you listing their modifier instead of the actual number?

Legendxp
2015-11-29, 06:05 AM
why 1 int? It might act dumb but its definitely not. also you gave it a very high jump mod but did it ever jump in the story? i think it mostly just sat there and blasted stuff.
Its reflex also seems really high i don't recall it ever bothering to dodge anything.
I would also give it some ability to power through obstructions like walls of force ect.
how are you doing its ability scores are you listing their modifier instead of the actual number?

@Awa, yeah I'm posting its modifier and not it actual ability score. This makes it's Int 12. I think once Int hits 13 or higher a creature becomes capable of speaking and I know endbringers don't do that. (Although now that I think about it the Simurgh spoke, and I think I might be mistaken about the Int thing)

I see your point about reflex saves, I'll lower it. Also, there was a part in the story where the Behemoth jumped like an entire city block (I can't remember the exact chapter but it was early on in the New Delhi Behemoth fight). Also, I think I should add a burrow speed, I forgot that he does that too.

nikkoli
2015-11-29, 01:30 PM
If you have the abilities listed as the modifiers why does it have - wisdom?

AvatarVecna
2015-11-29, 02:01 PM
Ultimately, D&D isn't really good for representing superpowers, and creating a creature that can take on hundreds/thousands of supers at a time is difficult. Somebody ran the math on the Endbringers back when we learned roughly how they're made: the core of each Endbringer is so tough/dense that putting it at the center of a star won't be enough pressure/heat to scratch it, much less destroy it. Behemoth survived a shot that could've destroyed the Indian subcontinent outright...and we know for a fact that every single Endbringer has been sandbagging the whole time, so it's hard to know what they're actually capable of and therefore what needs to be mechanically represented.

Regardless of the viability of representing the Endbringers with stats, here's some issues I have with your Behemoth build. Firstly, Str 46, just 1 point beyond the Tarrasque? His clapping can knock over buildings! His roar causes heads to explode! He lives in a world of capes and is still the best Brute there is! It feels low is my point. Secondly, his Constitution and general durability: even ignoring the "center of the Sun couldn't scratch his core" thing mentioned above, it even took Scion several shots to totally destroy Behemoth. Scion is cheating with epic unblockable untyped infinite damage BS, and it still took him several shots! But I digress...I'm not sure what they should be, but I don't think what they are currently is of the expected scale.

Third issue is a bit easier to determine what the change should be: IIRC, the Kill Aura extends 20 ft away from Behemoth's body...but the reason the safe distance is considered 100 ft is because of his ridiculous jumping power; he's been seen on many occasions jumping up to 80 ft almost instantaneously, and with a kill aura that auto-kills anybody not super-immune to it, that can be deadly. Maybe the kill aura, being super-radiation and dynakinetic mastery, could be represented by negative levels measuring in dice? I don't know...

Legendxp
2015-11-29, 07:22 PM
If you have the abilities listed as the modifiers why does it have - wisdom?

When you see things like constructs, oozes, ghosts, or undead, you'll find that they have an ability score missing. I wanted to show that Behemoth wasn't as alive as other things so I removed wisdom as a thematic choice. I thought that it fit pretty well.


...Regardless of the viability of representing the Endbringers with stats, here's some issues I have with your Behemoth build. Firstly, Str 46, just 1 point beyond the Tarrasque? His clapping can knock over buildings! His roar causes heads to explode! He lives in a world of capes and is still the best Brute there is! It feels low is my point. Secondly, his Constitution and general durability: even ignoring the "center of the Sun couldn't scratch his core" thing mentioned above, it even took Scion several shots to totally destroy Behemoth. Scion is cheating with epic unblockable untyped infinite damage BS, and it still took him several shots! But I digress...I'm not sure what they should be, but I don't think what they are currently is of the expected scale.

Third issue is a bit easier to determine what the change should be: IIRC, the Kill Aura extends 20 ft away from Behemoth's body...but the reason the safe distance is considered 100 ft is because of his ridiculous jumping power; he's been seen on many occasions jumping up to 80 ft almost instantaneously, and with a kill aura that auto-kills anybody not super-immune to it, that can be deadly. Maybe the kill aura, being super-radiation and dynakinetic mastery, could be represented by negative levels measuring in dice? I don't know...

Thanks for the info on the kill aura, I couldn't find it (other than not going within a 100 ft). Maybe I can just have them take massive amounts fire damage when within range of the aura. I was thinking about dealing with radiation by having the players keep repeating a save to avoid Con damage (once immediately, and then once every couple of minutes). I could up the save the longer they're exposed to radiation.

I plan on giving him some massive durability when he reaches 0 health. Be on the look-out for something called 'Multiplanar Core'. He'll die when at -100 hp instead of -10 hp.

Eldan
2015-11-29, 07:36 PM
Ultimately, D&D isn't really good for representing superpowers, and creating a creature that can take on hundreds/thousands of supers at a time is difficult. Somebody ran the math on the Endbringers back when we learned roughly how they're made: the core of each Endbringer is so tough/dense that putting it at the center of a star won't be enough pressure/heat to scratch it, much less destroy it. Behemoth survived a shot that could've destroyed the Indian subcontinent outright...and we know for a fact that every single Endbringer has been sandbagging the whole time, so it's hard to know what they're actually capable of and therefore what needs to be mechanically represented.

Regardless of the viability of representing the Endbringers with stats, here's some issues I have with your Behemoth build. Firstly, Str 46, just 1 point beyond the Tarrasque? His clapping can knock over buildings! His roar causes heads to explode! He lives in a world of capes and is still the best Brute there is! It feels low is my point. Secondly, his Constitution and general durability: even ignoring the "center of the Sun couldn't scratch his core" thing mentioned above, it even took Scion several shots to totally destroy Behemoth. Scion is cheating with epic unblockable untyped infinite damage BS, and it still took him several shots! But I digress...I'm not sure what they should be, but I don't think what they are currently is of the expected scale.
..

Eh. Just going by my version, 46 is plenty strong. That is casually ripping metal in half. Making heads explode? The average nonpowered head explodes rather easily. That's what, 2d6, 3d6 damage? That's what the sonic roar is foar. Remember that most capes in Worm aren't much tougher than vanilla humans, so 5d6 is already quite deadly. That's an average 17 damage, which kills anyone with 2 or 3 HD.

I think we're understanding scales differently here. I'd say high level D&D can easily represent just about anything in Worm.

AvatarVecna
2015-11-29, 07:42 PM
When you see things like constructs, oozes, ghosts, or undead, you'll find that they have an ability score missing. I wanted to show that Behemoth wasn't as alive as other things so I removed wisdom as a thematic choice. I thought that it fit pretty well.



Thanks for the info on the kill aura, I couldn't find it (other than not going within a 100 ft). Maybe I can just have them take massive amounts fire damage when within range of the aura. I was thinking about dealing with radiation by having the players keep repeating a save to avoid Con damage (once immediately, and then once every couple of minutes). I could up the save the longer they're exposed to radiation.

I plan on giving him some massive durability when he reaches 0 health. Be on the look-out for something called 'Multiplanar Core'. He'll die when at -100 hp instead of -10 hp.

Don't forget massive regeneration/fast healing to match. Also, maybe the Endbringer creature type should also have scaling Energy Resistance in addition to scaling Damage Resistance? Even if not for the other Endbringers, at least for the dynakinetic Behemoth; having him only be immune to one at a time is fine, but he should be resistant to the ones he's not immune to as well.

AvatarVecna
2015-11-29, 08:14 PM
Eh. Just going by my version, 46 is plenty strong. That is casually ripping metal in half. Making heads explode? The average nonpowered head explodes rather easily. That's what, 2d6, 3d6 damage? That's what the sonic roar is foar. Remember that most capes in Worm aren't much tougher than vanilla humans, so 5d6 is already quite deadly. That's an average 17 damage, which kills anyone with 2 or 3 HD.

I think we're understanding scales differently here. I'd say high level D&D can easily represent just about anything in Worm.

Most capes in Worm? Sure*. But even a lot of Brutes can't get near Behemoth for these same reasons, and they're the ones who should be able to withstand a measly 17 damage. The brutes in-universe are significantly tougher than normal humans (sometimes by a few scales of magnitude), and they still get curbstomped; in the case of the not-so-strong brutes, they get taken out by being near him, just like anybody else: in-universe, anything less than invulnerability means his kill aura disintegrates you instantly. I'm sure it can be represented using 3.5 mechanics, but this is a creature even the Triumvirate have consistently failed to slow down, much less hurt, much less kill, even with the help of hundreds of other capes, even with the experience that comes from fighting this creature dozens of times.

This is CR 25, but it doesn't earn it, it can't earn it. Forget god-wizard Incantatrixes raining down multi-metamagic'd Apocalyses From The Sky, a dedicated uber-charger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=11912710&postcount=5) could flatten him (unless that "massive" DR he gets at negative HP measures in the thousands, and even then a crit would still flatten him unless it was a very high thousands EDIT: he's not subject to crits, but the rest of the point still stands). I've built characters that could literally bowl him over with a 10 ft magical adamantine bowling ball (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18472541&postcount=67), and there's so many existing ways to No-Sell that build that it's amazing that Behemoth has absolutely none of them. This version of Behemoth has a lot of high numbers, and that's very useful...but it's ultimately mostly just another brick with some SLAs and a small pile of immunities; it's the equivalent of a Fighter 100...lots of high numbers, but nothing that actually means it's powerful.

Behemoth is dynakinetic, and is the most powerful Brute in existence in a world that includes Alexandria and the Siberian; it took Scion several shots to kill Behemoth, and Scion is playing with multi-dimensional super-nukes. My problem isn't that Behemoth can't be created in D&D 3.5, my problem is that this Behemoth could and will get torn apart by casters nearly half his CR on their way to a real fight, and I think the creature that can survive several blows from his universe's version of Galactus' pimp hand should be better than that.

EDIT: Forgot about the asterisk. I say "Sure*" because Skitter, whose powers do absolutely nothing we can tell to make her actually tougher, allow her to survive far more injuries (and worse injuries) than a "vanilla human" could survive without blinking an eye...and her spider-silk suit only accounts for a tiny fraction of that. Scion blew her in half, and that just made her mad; her reaction to getting her arm crushed by that Case 53 was "I just got that arm back"; she suffered injuries that amounted to little more than annoyances for her, and later had them transferred to another cape (who "heals" people by taking their injuries onto himself); incidentally, that cape started screaming in pain immediately after. I'm sure that was coincidental though *rolls eyes*.

Douglas
2015-11-29, 08:33 PM
Representing the layers of increasing toughness with just resistance that scales with how low he is has weird and inconsistent behavior on the transitions from one toughness zone to the next, especially if done in a single big hit. I think this would be better represented with a series of separate hit point pools, each with its own DR and energy resistance. Damage that overflows one pool gets applied to the next, but only after being reduced by the new pool's resistance.

nikkoli
2015-11-30, 11:21 AM
My point on the wisdom being - is that it stops being a creature. Like wisdom is the ability to know something is going on around you and if these endbringers don't have some wisdom I feel like that would defeat it's whole life goal. Like it wouldn't see that thing it feels like smashing. Same deal if charisma was - it won't know it exists so it couldn't do anything except sit there and melt the world with its aura.

Legendxp
2015-11-30, 01:54 PM
...This is CR 25, but it doesn't earn it, it can't earn it. Forget god-wizard Incantatrixes raining down multi-metamagic'd Apocalyses From The Sky, a dedicated uber-charger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=11912710&postcount=5) could flatten him (unless that "massive" DR he gets at negative HP measures in the thousands, and even then a crit would still flatten him unless it was a very high thousands EDIT: he's not subject to crits, but the rest of the point still stands). I've built characters that could literally bowl him over with a 10 ft magical adamantine bowling ball (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18472541&postcount=67), and there's so many existing ways to No-Sell that build that it's amazing that Behemoth has absolutely none of them. This version of Behemoth has a lot of high numbers, and that's very useful...but it's ultimately mostly just another brick with some SLAs and a small pile of immunities; it's the equivalent of a Fighter 100...lots of high numbers, but nothing that actually means it's powerful.

Behemoth is dynakinetic, and is the most powerful Brute in existence in a world that includes Alexandria and the Siberian; it took Scion several shots to kill Behemoth, and Scion is playing with multi-dimensional super-nukes. My problem isn't that Behemoth can't be created in D&D 3.5, my problem is that this Behemoth could and will get torn apart by casters nearly half his CR on their way to a real fight, and I think the creature that can survive several blows from his universe's version of Galactus' pimp hand should be better than that...

To be fair, an uber-charger can pretty much one-shot anything that isn't invulnerable to damage, unless you know of anything with more than 1600 hp. Also the uber charger is level twenty, I doubt many capes in the wormverse are level 10, forget level 20. Also there aren't any casters in the wormverse (Its why I haven't given it spell resistance). Also, Behemoth has some pretty high saves. I guess you could find some spells that wouldn't allow for saves but for the average player this thing would be pretty hard to take down. This isn't even counting that I haven't finished building Behemoth yet. I will lower the challenge rating though, I don't know much about those and I just kind of ball-parked it.

awa
2015-11-30, 02:44 PM
even zombies and Shrieker have a wisdom score

Douglas
2015-11-30, 03:08 PM
My point on the wisdom being - is that it stops being a creature. Like wisdom is the ability to know something is going on around you and if these endbringers don't have some wisdom I feel like that would defeat it's whole life goal. Like it wouldn't see that thing it feels like smashing. Same deal if charisma was - it won't know it exists so it couldn't do anything except sit there and melt the world with its aura.
For a rules reference on this, see Nonabilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities). The only nonability that could possibly fit is intelligence, and even that would be stretching it.

Legendxp
2015-11-30, 03:57 PM
I really don't want to give it Int as a nonability because then it loses all of its feats and skill points it got from levels (hit-dice) :'(

AvatarVecna
2015-11-30, 05:24 PM
To be fair, an uber-charger can pretty much one-shot anything that isn't invulnerable to damage, unless you know of anything with more than 1600 hp.

Generally, the way to beat an ubercharger is to stop their charge from finishing, not to try and tank their ubercharge; that being said, of all the beings that should be able to tank something like that, I would think that a the being who took a super-nuke to the face (which was capable of destroying the entire Indian subcontinent) could withstand a handful of blows from a couple magic knives. And there's lots of ways to stop a charge, from out-of-turn movement, to difficult terrain, to the tactical feat "Elusive Target", to flying out of reach, to AoOs that stop movement; that last one is particularly useful if you have reach, which Behemoth does...which makes it even weirder that he's vulnerable to such a tactic. The boulder bowler can be defeated via Rock-Catching (which also seems appropriate for Behemoth), as well as the 2nd lvl spell Wings of Cover; again, these tactics work against Behemoth, I just think they shouldn't; he should have a way of stopping a single rock, or one dude from charging him.


Also the uber charger is level twenty, I doubt many capes in the wormverse are level 10, forget level 20.

The things that give people powers justify their existence to Scion by getting into conflict with other powers and coming out superior; win enough conflicts, and they get upgrades (whether it's extra effects or bypassed limits). It's as close to a level-up system I've ever seen truly justified in-universe, and this world is nothing but super-conflicts at times. But you know what, you're right, it's so rare that we've seen people capable of the equivalent of 6th lvl spells...you know, things like Antimagic Field (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Hatchet_Face), or Acid Fog (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Fog), or Blade Barrier (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Max_Anders), or Irresistible Hold Person (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Clockblocker). And of course that also includes 7th lvl spells like Regeneration (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Amy_Dallon), or Greater Scrying (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/The_Clairvoyant), or Creeping Doom (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Taylor_Hebert), or Sunbeam (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Kayden_Anders), or Greater Teleport (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Strider), or Prismatic Spray (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Legend), and also includes 8th lvl spells like Incendiary Cloud (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Sundancer), or Iron Body (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Weld), and includes 9th lvl spells like Gate (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Labyrinth), or Soul Bind (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Glaistig_Uaine), or Mind Rape (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Niko_Vasil), or Time Stop (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Robin_Swoyer). And of course, things replicating spells above 9th level would be impossible, like Quickened Moment of Prescience (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Contessa) or Twinned Teleport Object (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Trickster). And of course, epic spellcasting is completely out of the question, like a sound-based city-wide silicokinetic bomb (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Shatterbird), or a city-wide miasma-based plague that induces forgetfulness (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Bonesaw), getting tougher and stronger every second you fight (pick (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Lung) one (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Crawler)), or the creation of completely new species on the fly (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Jamie_Rinke).

Also, it's worth mentioning that the in-universe equivalent of the Properly Paranoid Wizard (high-ranked Thinkers) are some of the most infamous and dangerous people in the Worm-verse: whether it's combat pre-cogs like Contessa , Jack Slash, or the Simurgh, more limited pre-cogs like Coil, Dinah, or Accord, or merely analysts like Tattletale, Alexandria, or Skitter, there's plenty of evidence to suggest why the PRT's advice on fighting groups of capes is "aim for the Thinkers first". But that's neither here nor there, just something worth mentioning.


Also there aren't any casters in the wormverse

Absolutely none? Funny, I seem to recall capes with powers that could be confused with magic were common enough that they had their own sub-category in the Trump power set, and that examples of such capes included an entire organization based out of New York (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/The_Adepts), a man convinced that he's Merlin (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Myrddin), and a member of the Triumvirate (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Eidolon). Also, see my previous sarcastic references to various spells that are replicated in the Wormverse. And even that's not accounting for grab-bag capes like Circus, or capes that have very versatile powers (that aren't quite as versatile as D&D magic) like Glaistig Uaine, Vista, Labyrinth, or Skitter, or capes that are part of the power classification centered around the creation of items beyond the abilities of science and engineering to understand or replicate (http://worm.wikia.com/wiki/Tinker) (*cough* magic items! *cough*). I guess you could say it's all psionics instead of "magic", but that's such a small distinction as to barely be worth mentioning.


(Its why I haven't given it spell resistance). Also, Behemoth has some pretty high saves. I guess you could find some spells that wouldn't allow for saves but for the average player this thing would be pretty hard to take down.

For reasons listed above, I think the Worm-verse stuff is close enough to magic that some measure of SR would be appropriate (also, as previously mentioned, ER in addition to his shifting immunities). And yeah, the average player would have difficulty taking this thing down because they try to build characters the way WotC builds characters (namely, poorly). In-universe, the capes have to learn to optimize their powers because otherwise they get crushed: even if we ignore Skitter spending her entire career cheesing new ways to make control over bugs a viable power, we have Bakuda turning one bomb and Oni Lee into an infinite series of suicide bombers, we have Shadow Stalker using her lighter-than-air form to leap from building to building and send bolts flying much further than they have any right to go, we have Night and Fog combining their powers effects (acidic fog and super-form when not seen) to dangerous effect, we have Armsmaster (a melee-specialist Tinker who earns his spot on the field against multiple high-level brutes), we have Assault and Battery combining their powers to great degree, and we have Coil turning a bare pre-cog ability into a mundane criminal organization. We have to assume the capes of the Worm Universe are fairly optimized not only because they almost continually demonstrate it, but because not optimizing your powers means you die, or get caught. And because of that, we can't assume the Endbringers are low-op either...at least, we shouldn't, not if we want to represent them.


This isn't even counting that I haven't finished building Behemoth yet. I will lower the challenge rating though, I don't know much about those and I just kind of ball-parked it.

By all means, make Behemoth a lot tougher...or at least more optimal. Keep his CR where it is, but give him the abilities to earn it. Close the holes in his defenses that allow him to get wrecked by lower-level optimized opponents. Make him the epic threat he deserves to be.

As a couple suggestions (beyond Energy Resistances/Immunities and offensive Dynakinesis stuff), maybe a continuous "Storm of Vengeance" effect, increased Con/HD/Regeneration? The scaling DR is a kinda weird mechanic as Douglas mentioned, but it should work alright with the current numbers. I don't know, with so many things being unspecified and being vaguely in the right direction of what's appropriate ("massive" DR below 0 HP could mean a lot of things).
I really don't want to give it Int as a nonability because then it loses all of its feats and skill points it got from levels (hit-dice) :'(
I don't think the Endbringers have any nonabilities; granted, I don't think Behemoth has a particularly high Int or Wis, but surely the Simurgh does, and Leviathan is supposed to be smarter than people think.

awa
2015-11-30, 11:10 PM
i feel light damage should be covered on fire or more accurately heat and he should not be able to change immunity as an immediate action maybe a free action becuase they did distract him

also i really like the suggestion to give him multiple pools of hp each with their own DR (oh he should also be immune to powers that ignore dr)

Legendxp
2015-12-01, 07:51 PM
I don't think the Endbringers have any nonabilities; granted, I don't think Behemoth has a particularly high Int or Wis, but surely the Simurgh does, and Leviathan is supposed to be smarter than people think.


i feel light damage should be covered on fire or more accurately heat and he should not be able to change immunity as an immediate action maybe a free action becuase they did distract him

also i really like the suggestion to give him multiple pools of hp each with their own DR (oh he should also be immune to powers that ignore dr)

I think I'm going to give up on trying to give endbringers a nonability, its a lost cause. Also, I agree with the multiple damage pools thing as well, that was a good idea. Anybody have a good idea about how to word it? I'll post alot more tomorrow as I don't currently have access to a computer. (I'm using my wii u actually, the internet part of it)

AvatarVecna
2015-12-02, 12:59 AM
I think I'm going to give up on trying to give endbringers a nonability, its a lost cause. Also, I agree with the multiple damage pools thing as well, that was a good idea. Anybody have a good idea about how to word it? I'll post alot more tomorrow as I don't currently have access to a computer. (I'm using my wii u actually, the internet part of it)

Maybe something like "If Behemoth is reduced to 0 HP, he immediately regains all of his health; furthermore, his DR (and ER and SR if he gets any) and Regeneration increase to BIGGER NUMBER. If he is reduced to 0 HP a second time..." and continue on as long as you feel like.

Admiral Squish
2015-12-02, 01:20 AM
I feel like, for an endbringer, it would be acceptable to step back from the typically rule-intensive nature of the system. The very nature of the endbringers is that they violate the rules of the universe as we understand them in ways that are either nearly, or entirely, impossible to counter. Like, the kill aura. If you make it so it deals standard damage, it would be theoretically possible to become resistant or immune to it, or simply soak it with enough hit points. Whereas, in the story, it breaks the rules by ignoring the inherent defenses of living creatures to destroy them in a way that can't be defended against. Even normally-invulnerable or extremely tough heroes die immediately within the kill aura. I think this would be one of the rare situations where 'no save, die' would be appropriate.

Douglas
2015-12-02, 02:47 AM
I feel like, for an endbringer, it would be acceptable to step back from the typically rule-intensive nature of the system. The very nature of the endbringers is that they violate the rules of the universe as we understand them in ways that are either nearly, or entirely, impossible to counter. Like, the kill aura. If you make it so it deals standard damage, it would be theoretically possible to become resistant or immune to it, or simply soak it with enough hit points. Whereas, in the story, it breaks the rules by ignoring the inherent defenses of living creatures to destroy them in a way that can't be defended against. Even normally-invulnerable or extremely tough heroes die immediately within the kill aura. I think this would be one of the rare situations where 'no save, die' would be appropriate.
I'm pretty sure there are a small number of supers that actually are able to survive the aura. Alexandria, for one. So I find the idea of it being theoretically survivable to be just fine.

AvatarVecna
2015-12-02, 04:18 AM
I feel like, for an endbringer, it would be acceptable to step back from the typically rule-intensive nature of the system. The very nature of the endbringers is that they violate the rules of the universe as we understand them in ways that are either nearly, or entirely, impossible to counter. Like, the kill aura. If you make it so it deals standard damage, it would be theoretically possible to become resistant or immune to it, or simply soak it with enough hit points. Whereas, in the story, it breaks the rules by ignoring the inherent defenses of living creatures to destroy them in a way that can't be defended against. Even normally-invulnerable or extremely tough heroes die immediately within the kill aura. I think this would be one of the rare situations where 'no save, die' would be appropriate.

Canonically, the kill aura killed everything within 20 ft...except for the rare individuals that were "truly invulnerable". As another has already mentioned, Alexandria is a prime example, and Eidolon is presumably another (sometimes). A thought I keep coming back to is that, with Dr. Manton's connection to Cauldron, the Enbringer fights could've gone very differently if the Siberian was present on the battlefield (since she had one of the few powers capable of bypassing "true immunities" like that of the entities).

Eldan
2015-12-02, 06:13 AM
And scion, of course. So, at high enough levels, perfectly survivable. Sounds like a very high save death effect or just very large untyped damage.

Legendxp
2015-12-02, 10:13 AM
I really don't appreciate the sarcasm. I know you're capable of providing constructive criticism without being rude.


Generally, the way to beat an ubercharger is to stop their charge from finishing, not to try and tank their ubercharge; that being said, of all the beings that should be able to tank something like that, I would think that a the being who took a super-nuke to the face (which was capable of destroying the entire Indian subcontinent) could withstand a handful of blows from a couple magic knives. And there's lots of ways to stop a charge, from out-of-turn movement, to difficult terrain, to the tactical feat "Elusive Target", to flying out of reach, to AoOs that stop movement; that last one is particularly useful if you have reach, which Behemoth does...which makes it even weirder that he's vulnerable to such a tactic. The boulder bowler can be defeated via Rock-Catching (which also seems appropriate for Behemoth), as well as the 2nd lvl spell Wings of Cover; again, these tactics work against Behemoth, I just think they shouldn't; he should have a way of stopping a single rock, or one dude from charging him.


I would greatly appreciate tips on how to help behemoth with tactics like these. I would loved to have put in some of the things you are talking about here. The problem is that until about five minutes ago I was unaware of them. I'm not one of the pro optimizers around here. If I'm going to create something to stand up against optimized players I'll definitely need help. Also, there's a good chance I won't know what feat/spell you are talking about right off the bat so if you provide the name of the book I'll look it up later.


The things that give people powers justify their existence to Scion by getting into conflict with other powers and coming out superior; win enough conflicts, and they get upgrades (whether it's extra effects or bypassed limits). It's as close to a level-up system I've ever seen truly justified in-universe, and this world is nothing but super-conflicts at times. But you know what, you're right, it's so rare that we've seen people capable of the equivalent of 6th lvl spells...you know, things like Antimagic Field, or Acid Fog, or Blade Barrier, or Irresistible Hold Person. And of course that also includes 7th lvl spells like Regeneration, or Greater Scrying, or Creeping Doom, or Sunbeam, or Greater Teleport, or Prismatic Spray, and also includes 8th lvl spells like Incendiary Cloud, or Iron Body, and includes 9th lvl spells like Gate, or Soul Bind, or Mind Rape, or Time Stop. And of course, things replicating spells above 9th level would be impossible, like Quickened Moment of Prescience or Twinned Teleport Object. And of course, epic spellcasting is completely out of the question, like a sound-based city-wide silicokinetic bomb, or a city-wide miasma-based plague that induces forgetfulness, getting tougher and stronger every second you fight (pick one), or the creation of completely new species on the fly.

Many twentieth level characters/spellcasters are completely decked out with magic items and usually have more than just one spell they can cast. Also hitpoint totals that are really high (Well, at least when compared to a commoner). I doubt shatterbird has a hitpoint total as high as the average 20th level spellcaster. Also, technically speaking, I'm right when I say there aren't any casters in the wormverse. There aren't any material components, metamagic, counterspells, etc... There are certainly powers that mimic spells. I see the point you make, however, that there are parahumans that mimic high-level spellcasters close enough that it doesn't really matter (Eidolon, Fairy Queen, Scion, though he's technically not a parahuman).

Perhaps I'll work some kind of power resistance into him somehow.


...We have to assume the capes of the Worm Universe are fairly optimized not only because they almost continually demonstrate it, but because not optimizing your powers means you die, or get caught. And because of that, we can't assume the Endbringers are low-op either...at least, we shouldn't, not if we want to represent them...


I also see the point you are making here. However, I don't think we should assume that the players are optimized. If we make Behemoth into a creature that can't be beaten even by optimized players, what is the point of having him as a boss? That would be similar to playing an entire campaign of D&D and realizing the boss cannot be beaten and you get TPK'd immediately. I can think of a few capes right off the bat who should be able to kill and/or capture endbringers if they fully utilized their abilities (Flechette, Bakuda, String-Theory, Eidolon, Shadow Stalker, Siberian, Gray-Boy), so I don't think making Behemoth slightly less powerful in the D&D format is as big a deal as you are making it out to be.

Response to AvatarVecna. I'll be updating later today sometime, until then, I'm unavailable.

awa
2015-12-02, 07:21 PM
in regards to someone like grey boy shunting down end bringers we never see them interact so we have no way of knowing if his power would have its normal effect unlike d&d we don't have a hard set of mechanics to let us kown whose powers trumps whose. That said i disagree with the idea that worm verse heroes are automatically optimized. There are several big differences between pcs and capes, pcs get to pick their powers and guarantee they have good synergies and well balanced abilities and they know exactly how their powers interact with the world. Capes have to experiment they don't automatically know how there powers will interact with other powers and they have no real choice over what they get.

I would give the behemoth the ability to just raw power his way through effects, negating weak ones like say an entangle and having powers like wall of force just slow him down.

and allow him extra actions say one set of physical actions and another set of drop homing lightning bolts at people. which get even more dangerous if he focuses on the energy powers.

An ubercharger should be easy for him to beat. First the charger gets tagged by the aura as hes coming in and assuming he survived that he had better hope that behemoth is not manipulating kinetic energy becuase if he is all the charges force, all that damge is going to be sent right back at him.