Rhaegar
2015-11-29, 08:50 PM
I'm currently running a princes of the apocalypse campaign. I'm a first time DM a couple months into the campaign, and all the players are first time to D&D outside of video games, though we did previously do a GURPS campaign with one of the current players DMing that. We're having some questions about two campaign specific spells. We're playing on 5ft grid maps. The debate is which grid areas would be affected by the spells. I'm looking for both RAW responses, as well as how you might house rule them outside of RAW. Our group includes players with masters degrees in Physics, Math, and Aerospace engineering, so we are a highly technical group.
The first spell up for debate in the party is Earth Tremor: Range: Self(10 foot radius) You cause a tremor in the ground in a 10-foot radius. Each creature other than you in that area must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes 1d6 blugeoning damage and is knocked prone. If the ground in that area is loose earth or stone, it becomes difficult terrain until cleared. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above first.
My players are arguing for it to cover:
http://imgur.com/FXAzwT2
They argue that it would cover 21 boxes around the caster, the 3x3 box surrounding the caster, and the additional 3 boxes further out. They're argument is that the spell originates from the caster, and using movement rules from the casters box using alternating 5ft/10ft diagonal movement. This is how far you could move 10 feet, so the spell should be able to reach those boxes. Argument 2, if I can attack the square with a 10foot reach weapon, a 10ft radius spell should also be able to hit it.
Counter arguments. 1. A 10ft radius circle has an area of 314 ft^2, What they want would be 525 ft^2. There are seperate rules for movement, melee weapons, ranged weapons and spells. We need to stick to the rules for spells. Also to attack with a melee weapon you aren't just standing in the center of the square you would step and attack towards the opponent, attacking more from an edge or a corner of the box the caster is in.
DM Option 1:
http://imgur.com/X1YXynM
Going Strictly rules as written of the DM guide 251, choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal, If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square it affects the square. Here you have the standard 10foot radius circle centered on a cross hair with 12 squares covering 300 ft^2 of surface, where a pure circle is 314^ft. Argument against is that the origin is the caster, and it should be centered on the caster. With this you also negate one corner surrounding the caster which doesn't seem appropriate if the caster is the origin.
DM Option 2:
http://imgur.com/E9FrQH7
If you go by specific beats general, and the origin is the caster, not a point in space, and the caster is at the center of the square, any square over 50% is affected, but less than 50% is not affected you would end up with only 9 squares covered. Here you only end up with 225^ft compared to a 314ft^2 pure circle. The centered edge squared while close are less than 50%
Not yet proposed Option 3:
http://imgur.com/ejkT5dP
The average person is 18 inches wide. If the origin is a person, and it is 10feet from the caster, the radius may end up being a circle with an 11 foot radius. An 11 foot radius centered at the center of a square would end up with 13 squares and 325 ft^2 of coverage just slightly over 314 ft^2 of a natural circle. This option seems like it might be most acceptable to the party as a whole.
How would you rule the effects of this spell?
The next spell in question is Ice Knife: You create a shard of ice and fling it at one creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 piercing damage. Hit or miss, the shard then explodes. The target and each creature within 5 feet of the point where the ice exploded must succeed on a Dexterity saving through or take 2d6 damage. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the cold damage increases by 1d6 for each slot above 1st
The question: Does the AoE effect cover 4 squares or 9 squares.
http://imgur.com/QPy7LZ7
http://imgur.com/t5ZxGdW
My players are arguing that it explodes in the center and hits 9 total squares, the square the caster is in, and all adjacent squares. The thing i'm worried about is that it is a 5ft explosion, which is 78.54 ft^2 for a natural circle. 9 squares is 225 ft^2 more than double 4 squares which is 100 ft^2, and nearly triple the size of a natural 5ft radius circle.
The players argue that the 9 squares is appropriate as all 9 squares are within ft of the target. Counter argument is that the explosion is specifically 5ft from the point where the ice exploded, the ice wouldn't explode in the center of the person, they may have leaned forward to catch it with a shield, or it may have exploded right on their body in front of them. And if it hit them and exploded, their body would naturally block the explosion from hitting squares behind the player. But while we might know where it explodes if it actually hits it's target where would it explode if it missed. If it explodes on a crosshair, but misses, would it explode on any random crosshair surrounding the player, or would it still explode on the crosshair nearest to being between caster and target.
This spell unlike earth tremor has a single point as it's origin of the ice knife exploding, and isn't actually originating from the person, but a point of explosion.
How would you, or how have you handled these two spells at your tables. Ultimately how are these spells balanced. If ice knife for instance is actually balanced around 9 squares I don't want to nerf it, but if it's balanced around 4 squares, but I let it affect 9 squares it becomes quite powerful by comparison.
The first spell up for debate in the party is Earth Tremor: Range: Self(10 foot radius) You cause a tremor in the ground in a 10-foot radius. Each creature other than you in that area must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes 1d6 blugeoning damage and is knocked prone. If the ground in that area is loose earth or stone, it becomes difficult terrain until cleared. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above first.
My players are arguing for it to cover:
http://imgur.com/FXAzwT2
They argue that it would cover 21 boxes around the caster, the 3x3 box surrounding the caster, and the additional 3 boxes further out. They're argument is that the spell originates from the caster, and using movement rules from the casters box using alternating 5ft/10ft diagonal movement. This is how far you could move 10 feet, so the spell should be able to reach those boxes. Argument 2, if I can attack the square with a 10foot reach weapon, a 10ft radius spell should also be able to hit it.
Counter arguments. 1. A 10ft radius circle has an area of 314 ft^2, What they want would be 525 ft^2. There are seperate rules for movement, melee weapons, ranged weapons and spells. We need to stick to the rules for spells. Also to attack with a melee weapon you aren't just standing in the center of the square you would step and attack towards the opponent, attacking more from an edge or a corner of the box the caster is in.
DM Option 1:
http://imgur.com/X1YXynM
Going Strictly rules as written of the DM guide 251, choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal, If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square it affects the square. Here you have the standard 10foot radius circle centered on a cross hair with 12 squares covering 300 ft^2 of surface, where a pure circle is 314^ft. Argument against is that the origin is the caster, and it should be centered on the caster. With this you also negate one corner surrounding the caster which doesn't seem appropriate if the caster is the origin.
DM Option 2:
http://imgur.com/E9FrQH7
If you go by specific beats general, and the origin is the caster, not a point in space, and the caster is at the center of the square, any square over 50% is affected, but less than 50% is not affected you would end up with only 9 squares covered. Here you only end up with 225^ft compared to a 314ft^2 pure circle. The centered edge squared while close are less than 50%
Not yet proposed Option 3:
http://imgur.com/ejkT5dP
The average person is 18 inches wide. If the origin is a person, and it is 10feet from the caster, the radius may end up being a circle with an 11 foot radius. An 11 foot radius centered at the center of a square would end up with 13 squares and 325 ft^2 of coverage just slightly over 314 ft^2 of a natural circle. This option seems like it might be most acceptable to the party as a whole.
How would you rule the effects of this spell?
The next spell in question is Ice Knife: You create a shard of ice and fling it at one creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 piercing damage. Hit or miss, the shard then explodes. The target and each creature within 5 feet of the point where the ice exploded must succeed on a Dexterity saving through or take 2d6 damage. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the cold damage increases by 1d6 for each slot above 1st
The question: Does the AoE effect cover 4 squares or 9 squares.
http://imgur.com/QPy7LZ7
http://imgur.com/t5ZxGdW
My players are arguing that it explodes in the center and hits 9 total squares, the square the caster is in, and all adjacent squares. The thing i'm worried about is that it is a 5ft explosion, which is 78.54 ft^2 for a natural circle. 9 squares is 225 ft^2 more than double 4 squares which is 100 ft^2, and nearly triple the size of a natural 5ft radius circle.
The players argue that the 9 squares is appropriate as all 9 squares are within ft of the target. Counter argument is that the explosion is specifically 5ft from the point where the ice exploded, the ice wouldn't explode in the center of the person, they may have leaned forward to catch it with a shield, or it may have exploded right on their body in front of them. And if it hit them and exploded, their body would naturally block the explosion from hitting squares behind the player. But while we might know where it explodes if it actually hits it's target where would it explode if it missed. If it explodes on a crosshair, but misses, would it explode on any random crosshair surrounding the player, or would it still explode on the crosshair nearest to being between caster and target.
This spell unlike earth tremor has a single point as it's origin of the ice knife exploding, and isn't actually originating from the person, but a point of explosion.
How would you, or how have you handled these two spells at your tables. Ultimately how are these spells balanced. If ice knife for instance is actually balanced around 9 squares I don't want to nerf it, but if it's balanced around 4 squares, but I let it affect 9 squares it becomes quite powerful by comparison.