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View Full Version : Oppressive DM, Help Me!



doliemaster
2007-06-08, 07:58 AM
I have a kid who I play most of our Rpgs with. Now I am usually Dm but that is because he is always an oppressive jerk to me with my characters. He has a problem with bringing out of game problems in-game. He will instantly trie to kill off any evil characters I make in DnD in horrible ways because I am 'evil' in a homebrew world he put my chaotic evil ranger in a country that was ruled by a paladins guild whose members are allowed to Detect evil on everyone and swipe up and kill evil people without trial or Jury. When I was at the border at the LV-1 start he puts me up against an unbeatable magical mech! He makes town guards level 20-literally aswell as all shop owners are level 20 with enchanted weapons. He killed off my mentally-retarded hill-ogre because he was acting 'childish and annoying' int and wis were 3- it was dumb brute or childish brute. My bards are killed randomly and when we were going to play a game based on his favorite anime he wouldn't let me make the character I wanted-a political manipulator because-'He doesn't want me mucking up my favorite anime for him by turning it into a buracaecy!'
I can't stop this because he is the only person I can play with often but I want to actually play once in a while.
Please help me cure him of his problem or post your horror stories but the main prioty is to help me and others with oppresive DMs.

Ranis
2007-06-08, 08:12 AM
Which is more important to you: playing for an enjoyable experience every so often or playing with a stuck-up little kid who doesn't know what the point of D&D is very often?

Also, periods, capitalization, and the enter keys are your friends.

Jayabalard
2007-06-08, 08:15 AM
Talk with him and try and work out your problems; try to find some sort of compromise that you both can live with.

If you don't enjoy playing his games, then don't play them; find another game, or run your own. No gaming is better than bad gaming. Either he's truly oppressive, in which case he'll eventually wind up with no players; or you're getting bent out of shape over something minor and misrepresenting it to us, in which case his game is better off without you.

If he's not willing DM games with evil PCs, then either don't play an evil PC, or don't play in his game. While this may or may not be true of your "friend", if a DM has worked out a campaign that has the pcs as the "good guys", someone playing one of the "bad guys" can make all of that work a waste of time.

doliemaster
2007-06-08, 08:16 AM
The worst part is he is older and my best friend for 7 years, but my only other group is breaking up because one of the three is moving and the another was only in because he was in the same period as me and the other two plus wanted to play. But, as I said this the only one who can play with me often and I can enjoy DMing but I wanna play as a player once in a while.
Plus he didn't put alot of work into making it a good only campaign he just hates evil characters for no reason beyond hating evil characters.

Jayabalard
2007-06-08, 08:22 AM
he just hates evil characters for no reason beyond hating evil characters. He doesn't really need a reason to hate them; if he doesn't want to DM for an evil PC, and refuses to comprimise, then don't play those characters, or don't play in his game.

Teeka
2007-06-08, 08:24 AM
Could you try to explain to him what you intend to do during a session and try to get him to tell you how he might handle it? It may be that you have irreconcilable ideas about what makes a session fun. I know that has happened with myself and my friends. We had a new guy trying to join who was unable to understand that our characters would kill his character on sight. Since none of us were willing to say outright what was wrong with the situation it came across as us being arbitrary and petty about him and his character.

I am not agreeing with what your DM is doing, I am just wondering if failure to communicate may be adding to the problem.

doliemaster
2007-06-08, 08:33 AM
He is basically outright telling me the only things I can play is Good characters that meet the good, serious, sterotype. When I wanted a neutral evil wizard he said that my owl familar was evil so I wasn't allowed to hug it or have it as a kind familar, or have even a fun-loving character, I have to be so serious when he knows thats not what I like, and then he tries to make me do things my character wouldn't do in my opinion, like in a starwars d20 game he kept getting angry because I tried to play a snobby noble, and later with something else he kept getting angry because I wouldn't go to the hutts base on a planet when I was unarmed. He would say"HE WON"T KILL YOU" and I say that my character doesn't know that plus I want to explore-so he fills the world with undefeatable beast.

Citizen Joe
2007-06-08, 08:35 AM
When I saw this thread, I thought it would be some unreasonable DM doing TPK's. But as I read through it I see that its a complaint by someone that wants to make an antisocial character in a populated area complaining that people don't like him. Stop making evil characters!

doliemaster
2007-06-08, 08:38 AM
Its not just them I try multiple things just things that aren't what he is trying to force me into- I mean sheash he always plays the exact same thing and I NEVER try to kill his characters off cause I don't want to deal with his lawful good rogues til' the cows come home.

Indon
2007-06-08, 08:43 AM
If he's not willing DM games with evil PCs, then either don't play an evil PC, or don't play in his game.

What he said.

A party with even one evil character plays quite differently than a party of all good (or maybe all good except one or two neutral) characters. It takes a cleverly-played evil character to be able to roll with the kind of plot condusive to an all-good campaign. ("Help, sirs! The orphanage is burning down!" "Soooo... how much are you paying me per orphan?")

If you want to make an evil character, you're probably going to be limited in character concept anyway; you could discuss with your DM about a possible evil character who would function largely like a good character (being able to get along, actually doing good deeds to curry favor rather than demanding immediate reward, etc), but don't be surprised if he shoots you down.

Lord Zentei
2007-06-08, 08:43 AM
Perhaps you need to have more pre-game discussions about what kind of game you're planning on. If he accepts that you're going to be playing an evil childish character and then gets opressive anyway, perhaps you should look into getting another DM.

OTOH, if you play an evil character in a land populated and run by paladins, you should expect to get smote. :smallwink: Perhaps you could simply take your character to another area of the gameworld?

Sir_Banjo
2007-06-08, 08:43 AM
He doesn't really need a reason to hate them; if he doesn't want to DM for an evil PC, and refuses to comprimise, then don't play those characters, or don't play in his game.

I can understand the dm's feelings. I ran an evil campaign once and the level of depravity, and especially in the case of one player (he has "issues"), the description just made me hate all the PC's. Downright apathetic, amoral or mercenary bastards are fine but that's as far as I'll go. I eventually concocted a premature end for the campaign because I just could no longer stand dming those characters.

If that's all it is and they get along fine otherwise, then maybe you should stop playing the bad characters. Perhaps in the past you or someone else has done something that's made him dming evil PCs.

The problem here is that it doesn't seem like there are proper channels of communication between the DM and players. You guys should talk more about what sort of characters/campaign you want to play and try to resolve the kinds of issues outside of play. Inside the game, they'll only fuel petty resentment and ensure that nobody has a good time.

Skyserpent
2007-06-08, 08:55 AM
He's not a fantastic DM, no he's really not, but you're not really being all that cooperative. I know a guy just like that, he has a serious God complex and refuses to be upstaged or outdone and will employ any amount of annoying crap in order to outdo you if you don't do something he likes. The easiest way to deal with his type is to go with the flow, play a character that he doesn't mind DMing, (Though his campaigns tend to be kinda dumb anyway) if you play by his rules and make him feel good about what he's doing, you will win, inevitably, it's kind of annoying that way. I have the feeling that if you did everything he told you in this campaign he would make the world so easy to beat. Arbitrarily hyping up encounters with "Oh he does this, you can't save or anything tho... houserule." But in the end he'll let you win for some reason. It's bothersome and I hate it because there's no room for growth but your guy doesn't seem like he knows what he's doing enough for him to care. Let him be. Play along. Find a good Play by Post game...

Wolf_Shade
2007-06-08, 09:04 AM
It sounds primarily like a difference of perspective.
I would imagine that your DM could have just as easily posted a thread that one of his players is out to ruin his campaigns. He starts a good campaign, the player creates an evil character. He attempts to move the plot along at a hut base, the player decides to go "exploring" instead. He's tried various in game methods to get the player to see that his campaign requires certain things, and the player just isn't getting it. What should he do?

If you've been best friends for seven years you ought to be able to discuss it in a manner that won't result in one of you throwing the other out of your house. You want to play less stereotypical/serious characters. Maybe he wants to DM serious games or just can't come up with reactions to the 7 ft half orc that just said "Hey that's a pretty hat, can I have your hat? Are you in the army? Can I have your backpack?" Figure out what both your limits are, and then play within them.
D&D is about fun, what seems to be missed sometimes is that the DM is supposed to have fun too. Neither the players nor the DM should have fun at the expense of the others.

draca
2007-06-08, 10:09 AM
I feel for you, I really do. I donít have a magic solution for it though, other then balance wanting to play with making sure you are having fun doing it. Otherwise itís not play; itís hurt feelings that can hurt friendships outside of game.

ADVICE: pretend to go along, make a ďgoodĒ character, and have the fun where you can. Store up and shelve the really cool or interesting ideas you have for good villains and evil characters, for when you can play a game where you actually get to play them as they were intended. Because seriously, youíve already realized that bringing them into that setting will NOT let you play them right or have fun, so save them for later with a more mature group.

BACKUP: Iíve just had to quit a long running game because of similar behavior on the part of the DM. I still have friends going to that game, and had to really soul-search before deciding that it wasnít worth the perversion of what was meant to be fun.

Iíve had railroading DMs before, who even went so far as to say they were ok with concepts, just to land an ambush on the PC in the first night of play. I would believe you if you said he didnít warn you about the paladin thing in advance.

On the other side of the coin: we had one other friend in a group that would always play something chaotic stupid. He said it was "chaotic neutral" to get around the "no evil characters" rule that some campaigns had. It always disrupted whatever game we were in, and made it always feel like we were playing two different games, because inevitably he'd run off and go on a crime spree complete with mass murder, while we shamelessly tried to ignore him and focus on any semblance of the plot. (Trust me this was best, trying to work with his character in character never got anywhere, except all of us executed along with him.)

Perhaps your friend is just afraid of a nightmare scenario like this? Maybe he is just too insecure of a DM that he doesn't feel comfortable letting the players play their own characters?

Other times in another group I'm in, we have a friend who, whenever she DMs or playing in a scene, is constantly trying to tell you what your character thinks when her character does something, or correct your facts if you are fibbing in character for some reason. We coined a phrase, "Don't call the player for the character's BS!Ē always said with laughter, and affection. This line also works wonders to diffuse things when players start to get touchy when your character is being a dirty [illegitimate-child] or snobby noble, or whatever.

Most of the time though, if a simple talk, or even a talking-to doesn't fix the problem even if just for that session: if they refuse to differentiate between role playing and real life, then sadly, I've had to stop playing with some people over that.

Some people prefer the "you are just really you with a silly fantasy name and a sword" style "roleplayin" ... but it stabs out the eyes of my inner child to have to deal with too much of that.

On the bright side, it doesn't mean you are any less of good friends. It's kinda like the old beverage of choice thing, ďto each their own, but I ain't gonna drink THAT.Ē

valadil
2007-06-08, 11:28 AM
If this only happened once I'd say you should try and play nicer, but since it sounds like a pattern I think you either need to tell the GM whats up or quit his game. Theres a huge difference between him not letting you be disruptive evil and him forcing you to play someone who is good and overly serious. I think the real problem is that he has his own idea of what the game should be like. To get there he needs you to play a certain role. His own idea of the game has trumped whether or not you're going to have fun in the game. This is problematic. Players having fun should always be the number one priority in any RPG.

LotharBot
2007-06-08, 12:50 PM
Sit down together and decide what's allowed / what the campaign will be like BEFORE you roll up a character and BEFORE he tries to create a campaign world. If you're not on the same page, neither of you will have fun.

If you can't come to an agreement, don't play. If you do come to an agreement, give it a shot -- but if either you or he decides to break it, end the game and don't try again.

DeathQuaker
2007-06-08, 01:22 PM
Agreeing with what many are saying here. My 2 cents:

1. On one hand, it is the GM's right to dictate what races/classes/alignments get played in their campaign. You must accept this. It's very hard, as I'm sure you know, to prepare a game; sometimes it's easiest for the GM to place some restrictions on things. If you insist on playing a character you know your GM doesn't or only begrudgingly allows, both of you will end up being frustrated (as is the case).

2. On the OTHER hand, it is NOT the GM's right to dictate how you may roleplay your character. If the GM has allowed you to play a character, it's your right to play that character as you see fit. Now, if your evil character consistently does good deeds, it is the GM's right to say, "You know, your roleplaying indicates your character is sliding towards neutral." But just saying, "You're evil, you can't be evil THAT way," is innappropriate and unacceptable.

3. "Not having someone to play with" is not the dead-end that you are making it out to be. I've been gaming for a long time, and have moved around, been busy, been not busy, had a schedule that conflicted with other people... and ultimately, though sometimes I've had to wait a couple months, I've always found a game to play in with people who are good players. If your playing styles are so incompatible that you cannot communicate or compromise on your needs, you do need to take a break from this person AS A PLAYER and find a new game/group to play in. It may take some time, but if you're frustrated, it may be best for you and your friendship to do this. Nothing's worse than fraying the bonds of friendship over frustration over some paper and dice.

Like several other posters, I suggest discussing your frustrations with your friend; if he is truly one of your best friends he will at least listen respectfully to your concerns. If he refuses to compromise or you continue to be frustrated, it's time to break away from his game. As long as you make an effort to seek gaming elsewhere--as someone said, if worse comes to worse, get involved in an online game--you won't be high and dry, and you will be much better off finding a game that suits your play-style and needs.

Kiero
2007-06-08, 01:27 PM
Talk it out like mature adults.

If that's not possible, no gaming is better than bad gaming.

Xuincherguixe
2007-06-08, 11:37 PM
You also might want to consider doing some sort of internet sort of game. There are a lot of D&D MUDs out there (in fact, it's probably hard to find a MUD that isn't based on D&D ^_^). Yeah, internet gaming is fairly different, but it's still often a reasonably facsimile.

For some styles of play, evil characters just don't work. But if this is the case it should just be laid out like that. Rather than just coming along and randomly having your characters killed off.

If you really want to play an evil character, I think that the DM should respect that and at some point find a way to fit that into a game.

Still, my thought is you should try to find an internet game that accepts evil characters. Don't be surprised though if you end up getting killed by other evil characters. Hard to find evil games with low character mortality rates.

Yiel
2007-06-09, 03:49 AM
I think this sounds like a communication issue. From what experience I have, I know that trying to work with your DM is much better than working against them. EVEN if you disagree with some things. (Luckily I've had wonderful DMs... but they are some of my closest friends.)

Here's a few ideas (probably almost identical to previous posters):
- When you have a character concept/idea, sit down with your DM before the game and ask them to give you the go-ahead. Don't force them to see your point of view though.

eg. "Hey, I want to play a Swashbuckling Vampire. Would that be ok with you? Be honest."
"Um.. well there are no oceans nearby... and I don't think a Vampire would suit."
"Sure... how about [etc.]"
- If he doesn't want you to play evil, shelve those ideas and play a good or neutral trickster character to scratch the itch. I've been wanting to play a Pixie for ages, but my DMs have always let me know that it wouldn't suit the game and I've respected that.

- Sit down and TELL your friend your concerns. Tell him you aren't enjoying the games and work out a deal where you play his games in a way that suits you both... and bribe him with his favourite things to get him to let you play an evil character fairly just occasionally. (Bribing the DM is almost always a good idea... but it doesn't always work in ways you expect. I tried to get a Homebrew Prestige Class into a game once, and landed up engaged to a Blackguard Prince of the Underdark o_O)

- Go to your local gaming store, and ask the people who work there if they know of any groups in the local area who play evil campaigns and might want an extra player. Many stores that sell sourcebooks and dice have ways for players to meet up.

Renegade Paladin
2007-06-09, 03:55 AM
If I say "no evil characters" and someone proceeds to make an evil character, the evil character will meet a squad of paladins or an angry silver dragon very quickly. The same goes for people who try to pull stuff like barred spells, barred feats, or barred races on me. Does that make me oppressive? No, it makes me a DM who makes rules... like every other DM. If you defy the rules of the game, then expect to have them enforced against you. I have zero sympathy for your situation.

Incidentally, a swashbuckling vampire wouldn't work; they can't cross running water. :smallamused:

Driderman
2007-06-09, 04:05 AM
If I say "no evil characters" and someone proceeds to make an evil character, the evil character will meet a squad of paladins or an angry silver dragon very quickly. The same goes for people who try to pull stuff like barred spells, barred feats, or barred races on me. Does that make me oppressive? No, it makes me a DM who makes rules... like every other DM. If you defy the rules of the game, then expect to have them enforced against you. I have zero sympathy for your situation.


I understand what you're getting at here, but I'd suggest handling situations like that out of the game. Taking in-game revenge for players breaking your rules just propagates the downward spiral. Actually, I'm pretty sure this is one of the exact problems the OP has.
If your players can't abide by their rules, tell them that they will have to, or will have to find another DM. Throwing epic-level monsters they can't defeat at them just makes them spiteful and the next time they pull a trick like this they'll be even more munchkinny, in an attempt to create a build that can take out whatever you throw at them.

In short: Rules-violations cannot be solved within the context of the game. You wouldn't attack a character with orcs if he had happened to take a feat too many, would you?

Ninja Chocobo
2007-06-09, 04:06 AM
I think you guys are missing the point.
It's not that this guys DM won't let him play Evil characters in a Paladinocracy, it's that when he makes an Evil character the DM puts it in a Paladinocracy.
Also, he's not allowed to make any character that's not, basically, Lawful Good.
Oh, advice. Try to stop him from DMing, pretty much. See if the others want a turn, and if not, do it yourself.

Zincorium
2007-06-09, 04:06 AM
If I say "no evil characters" and someone proceeds to make an evil character, the evil character will meet a squad of paladins or an angry silver dragon very quickly. The same goes for people who try to pull stuff like barred spells, barred feats, or barred races on me. Does that make me oppressive? No, it makes me a DM who makes rules... like every other DM. If you defy the rules of the game, then expect to have them enforced against you. I have zero sympathy for your situation.

Incidentally, a swashbuckling vampire wouldn't work; they can't cross running water. :smallamused:

I feel similiarly, except...

I veto that stuff before the character uses it in play, because I care enough about the game to actually check people's sheets, and rather than taking it out on them in game, for what is an out of game problem.

And it is an out of game thing; they're going against an unspoken (or spoken in my case, since I wanted to make sure everyone understood) agreement that everyone is there to have fun, and that includes the DM. Anything that upsets that, either disruptive characters on their part or sadistic TPKs on mine, is a violation of the agreement and voids their right to play.

Killing a character for being something you don't like is, in my book, pretending that it is a valid character and then being a jerk. If it's completely against the rules, it isn't in the game when I'm DM. Yes, you may have brought a character sheet with a chaotic evil half giant to the game, but it's only there if everyone else agrees to let it be.


As to the OP, what it seems is that the DM is either too inexperienced or not versatile enough to do anything that isn't in their plan, and is putting up barriers to anyone doing anything other than that. You, however, seem to delight in testing those barriers and trying to play the game differently than what the DM wanted this. The DM recognizes this and dislikes it, and thus doesn't cut you any slack because he views you as disruptive to the game.

To put it bluntly, if you are going to play the guy's game, then play it his way or don't play. Any other option is going to tick both of you off, period.

Yechezkiel
2007-06-09, 04:28 AM
Nice Timber Wolf Sir Banjo!

Fawsto
2007-06-09, 09:56 AM
ok... Do the following: Play as he want's but make it clear that this is not your idea of a fun game. I mean: I am not telling you to stop every 5 minutes to tell him that you hate his game, I am telling you to play his game to earn some credits with the bastard. One day he will notice that you, and probably your entire group, are not apreciating his DM methodes.

I personaly can understand how the guy feels about evil characters, since I also believe that Heroes are good, letting the "Evil" to the bad Guys. This is mostly because I am a Paladin fan who has always issues with the cursed Chaotic Evil Elf Rogue and his "Ohhh cool stuff! Has anybody seen this? No? The Paladin saw this? No? GREAT!". But when I DM, I keep the things at bay being tolerant with this Kind of character. Well "tolerant" since once in a while that guard from whom the rogue is stealing will score high enough to find the rogue, and them you know what happens when a lvl 3 rogue finds a lvl 3 fighter in a small room without open doors or windows... Nothing that is impossible to happen once in a while... But being caught in the midle of a country of Tyrant Paladins (since killing without trial or ateempt of redenption is NOT the Paladin's style) is not really a common possibility...

BTW, how he managed to tell you that your character wen't to this country at his will or was born there? Seriously, I am curious!

Diggorian
2007-06-09, 11:55 AM
Stop playing under this DM, I would.

Look for other groups in your area and try playing online until you find a new DM.

Renegade Paladin
2007-06-09, 12:16 PM
I understand what you're getting at here, but I'd suggest handling situations like that out of the game.
I have a couple players that like to start out just fine, but start committing evil acts until their alignment shifts mid-game. If they break my strictures in-game, it's handled in-game. Of course, if someone came in at the start with "Chaotic Evil" written at the top of his character sheet, it's time for some power word: no.

Driderman
2007-06-09, 01:43 PM
I have a couple players that like to start out just fine, but start committing evil acts until their alignment shifts mid-game. If they break my strictures in-game, it's handled in-game. Of course, if someone came in at the start with "Chaotic Evil" written at the top of his character sheet, it's time for some power word: no.

Ah, guess I just misinterpreted you there. Usually, when me and my friends game, we agree on a theme before we start to play, so if anybody strays too far from that theme everyone knows there will be repercussions. What many players fail to understand is that there has to be cohesion between the characters and the story, If only people discussed their aims with their campaigns and characters with the other players, many troubles can be avoided. Although of course, there's always those bad apples that just are beyond help.

And the OPs DM sounds somewhat like one of those...

Yahzi
2007-06-09, 03:14 PM
The worst part is he is older and my best friend for 7 years,
You have to accept people for what they have to offer.

He can be a great friend. But maybe he's just a lousy DM. And that's probably not gonna change any time soon.

So either accept his games, by his rules, for the fun you can get out of them; or find another DM.

TOAOMT
2007-06-09, 03:26 PM
I would say if he doesn't want an evil character in the game, he's going about policing it all wrong. A good DM doesn't say "I don't like this character, KILL!" A good DM talks it over with the player, and a compomise is reached.

Then again, a good player makes sure his DM is ok with the character he's playing beforehand and that sort of thing.

Maybe the fault lies with both of you to an extent instead of just the DM, though I cannot actually say.

Rad
2007-06-09, 06:33 PM
That kind of things should really be sorted out of game. Your DM wronged you by killing your character instead of vetoing it.
Seriously, the game can be played in a lot of ways, and it will have different characteristics and will be likable for different people... maybe you both like D&D, but that does not mean you like the same way of playing it. failing to find an agreement and just pretending that the game can do both things is not... well... true. The game can do EITHER thing, or, alternatively, some hundred others. Find the one you all like to play (DM included) and stick to what was agreed.

Hope this helps