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View Full Version : Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, and Skirmish (PEACH)



Keledrath
2007-06-10, 01:16 PM
This is two concepts and one weapon ability.

Concept1: Weapon Restrictions
Legally, a Rouge with a level in Fighter can Sneak Attack with a Greatclub. This makes no sense. I say only weapons that all members of the class in question are proficent with, or racial weapons can get the bonus damage.

Concept2: Non-lethal Damage
Why can't you Sneak Attack for non-lethal damage with anything but a sap? Why can't you bang a guard in the back of the head with a shortsword pommel, and not get sneak attack? That's the same thing you do with a sap!

Weapon Ability: Assasaination
The main question here is: +4 or +5? An assasaination weapon doubles all extra DAMAGE dealt by Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, or Skirmish. For simplicity, I'll use a 5th level Rouge/ 5th level Scout in the example. They move ten feet, and Sneak attack an enemy for an extra 5d6 damage(Standard). With an assasaination weapon, the extra damage is doubled to 10d6.

Attilargh
2007-06-10, 01:27 PM
Concept1: Weapon Restrictions
Legally, a Rouge with a level in Fighter can Sneak Attack with a Greatclub. This makes no sense. I say only weapons that all members of the class in question are proficent with, or racial weapons can get the bonus damage.
Why would a greatsword in one's spleen somehow hurt less than a dagger in one's spleen? Why can an elven assassin put a shaft through the mark's eye with a longbow, but the human one can't? Why would it hurt less if a goblin with a honking big log clobbers a character upside the head than if the same goblin used a piece of firewood instead?

Wraithy
2007-06-10, 01:37 PM
This is two concepts and one weapon ability.

Concept1: Weapon Restrictions
Legally, a Rouge with a level in Fighter can Sneak Attack with a Greatclub. This makes no sense. I say only weapons that all members of the class in question are proficent with, or racial weapons can get the bonus damage.

Concept2: Non-lethal Damage
Why can't you Sneak Attack for non-lethal damage with anything but a sap? Why can't you bang a guard in the back of the head with a shortsword pommel, and not get sneak attack? That's the same thing you do with a sap!

.

concept 1: i agree that you shouldn't use a greatclub, but for a different reason. bludgeoning weapons shouldn't deal this damage, but other non-proficient weapons shouldn't be denied sneak attack damage, if you did you would be punishing exotic weapon wielders which add diversity among rogues. the reason sneak attacks are possible is not because you have trained with a specific weapon alot, but because you have studied biology and vital areas, this also leads me to concept 2: sneak attack damage is not extra damage because you have the element of suprise, it is the ability to hit just the right spots when your enemy cannot dodge your precision, effectively making your attacks more leathal, that's why you can't use non-leathal damage when you are trying to make your attacks more leathal.

Poppatomus
2007-06-10, 01:39 PM
or to put it another way, if I can sneak attack with a dagger to your spleen, couldn't I also sneak attack with a great club to back of your skull? If anything it should be a lot more powerful with the great club.

From the d20srd:

"If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself..."

The idea is that a rogue can take whatever weapon and put it somewhere it hurts more when you're not in a position to slow or impede his selection of a spot to hit.

jindra34
2007-06-10, 01:42 PM
For concept one I think it may be an issue of controlability. Its really hard to get a big weapon into a precise position to due the damage. Thus maybe it would be better to restrict it to light/one-handed weapons.

Poppatomus
2007-06-10, 02:57 PM
Though even that, though more reasonable, seems unnecessarily restrictive. True I can't stab you in the spleen with a great sword as easily as I can with a dagger, but It is much easier for me to use a great sword to, say penetrate your rib cage in exactly the right spot and hit your lung rather than needing to go around your rib cage because the dagger might chip.

I guess it comes down to how you interpret the fluff behind sneak attack. to me, the extra damage reflects a willingness and training to hit a relativly defenseless opponent in a way that causes more damage. It's independent of the weapon because as long as I can wield it I should be able to pretty much put it on target, (and remember too that the rogue spent either a feat or a level to use that bigger weapon without penalty) even if that means choosing a bigger/different target. (using a two handed mace to break your knee by hitting it in a vulnerable spot rather than using my dagger to lacerate an artery.)

The other take on Sneak attack is that it represents the ability to hit not just a vulnerable spot, but a small, sublte vulnerable spot hidden on the body. If that's your interpretation then limiting it only to small weapons does seem reasonable, though I'd still argue that a rogue being profficient with a great sword is supposed to imply that they are able to hit the sweet spot with that weapon as with another profficient weapon like a dagger (if anything with a greater margin for error.) Though perhaps that would be more appropriatly offset not with a restruction on using sneak attack, but on a reduction on chance to hit, or the need to roll two seperate attack rolls, one for the attack as normal, and one for the sneak attack at -4.

Keledrath
2007-06-10, 03:30 PM
Why would a greatsword in one's spleen somehow hurt less than a dagger in one's spleen? Why can an elven assassin put a shaft through the mark's eye with a longbow, but the human one can't? Why would it hurt less if a goblin with a honking big log clobbers a character upside the head than if the same goblin used a piece of firewood instead?

On the bow part, this was meant largely for melee, because shortbow and longbow arrows are the same arrow.

Matthew
2007-06-15, 04:17 PM
Hmmn. That is stupid. Never really noticed that caveat in Sneak Attack before.