Conjure Spells in 5E

[Karma Dragon]

Someone please explain why:

3rd level Conjure Animal = CR 2
4th level Conjure Minor Elementals = CR 2
4th level Conjure Woodland Beings = CR 2
5th level Conjure Elemental = CR 5
6th level Conjure Fey = CR 6
7th level Conjure Celestial = CR 4

What crack were these guys smoking? This is all over the place, which means either the spells aren't balanced or the CRs aren't balanced. Why would you write rules that allowed you to conjure 24 of anything? What a nightmare for everyone. For that matter, where is Conjure Fiend? Here, lets fix this:

3rd level Conjure Animal = CR 2
4th level Conjure Minor Elementals = CR 3
4th level Conjure Woodland Beings = CR 3
5th level Conjure Elemental = CR 5
6th level Conjure Fey = CR 6
6th level Conjure Fiend = CR 6 (added)
7th level Conjure Celestial = CR 7

Higher spell levels allow you to conjure higher CRs or one additional creature, your choice. So simple yet so elegant.

Why are warlocks the worst conjurers in the game? Isn't that supposed to be their thing? Instead they've been turned into magical archers! WTF?

Planar Binding is Cleric, Druid and Wizard, so basically unusable for Druids and Wizards given the fact that Planar Ally is cleric only? Don't the text descriptions in these spells scream WARLOCK?

Remove Planar Binding from both Druid and Wizard spell lists. Add Planar Binding and Planar Ally to Warlock spell lists. There, fixed.

I'm honestly at a loss. I think these guys did some really smart things with 5E game design, but also some really really really dumb ****.

[Nu]

Warlocks in DnD haven't really been summoners in the last few editions. Why would it be their "thing"? Where does your idea of a warlock come from?

[Karma Dragon]

Warlocks in DnD haven't really been summoners in the last few editions. Why would it be their "thing"? Where does your idea of a warlock come from?

Few editions? You mean 4E and now 5E? I never played 4E because it sucked horribly.

Warlocks were always the ones who dealt with powerful extra-planar entities. It's still in their descriptive text, but nowhere in their game design. It's the reason warlocks don't have powerful AOE spells. They even took the Alienist, which was specifically a summoner class, and turned it into a warlock subclass for 5E. How are you supposed to deal with entities from other dimensions if you have no way to actually interact with them?

[Flashy]

Someone please explain why:

3rd level Conjure Animal = CR 2
4th level Conjure Minor Elementals = CR 2
4th level Conjure Woodland Beings = CR 2
5th level Conjure Elemental = CR 5
6th level Conjure Fey = CR 6
7th level Conjure Celestial = CR 4

The fey and the elemental turn on you if you lose concentration, the celestial does not. Those get you higher CR creatures because they're risk/reward spells in a way Conjure Celestial isn't.
I don't really have a justification for why Conjure Animal gets you a creature of the same CR as the 4th level spells. Beasts aren't markedly worse than elementals or fey of the same level.

[The1exile]

Few editions? You mean 4E and now 5E? I never played 4E because it sucked horribly.

Warlocks were always the ones who dealt with powerful extra-planar entities. It's still in their descriptive text, but nowhere in their game design. It's the reason warlocks don't have powerful AOE spells. They even took the Alienist, which was specifically a summoner class, and turned it into a warlock subclass for 5E. How are you supposed to deal with entities from other dimensions if you have no way to actually interact with them?
You're presuming a lot, with little to back it up and being really bolshy while doing so. (You really think the game designers just overlooked giving a warlock AOE and summoning spells?)

Even in 3rd ed warlocks were what you call 'magical archers' since their signature was eldritch blast and at will invocations. It's never been summoning creatures - that's a WoW thing - instead it's always been closer to a sorcerer whose innate power comes with otherworldly entities, gaining a fraction of their at will abilities.

[Karma Dragon]

You're presuming a lot, with little to back it up and being really bolshy while doing so. (You really think the game designers just overlooked giving a warlock AOE and summoning spells?)

Even in 3rd ed warlocks were what you call 'magical archers' since their signature was eldritch blast and at will invocations. It's never been summoning creatures - that's a WoW thing - instead it's always been closer to a sorcerer whose innate power comes with otherworldly entities, gaining a fraction of their at will abilities.

The flavor texts and descriptions of warlocks making pacts with powerful extra-planer entities simply don't match thematically with their ability to conjure and make compacts with the minions of those entities. The power of Goetia magic seems like it should be the exclusive province of warlocks and priests.

Sorcerer's powers don't come from powerful otherworldly entities, but from having the blood of dragons, innate magical creatures, in them.

[rollingForInit]

The flavor texts and descriptions of warlocks making pacts with powerful extra-planer entities simply don't match thematically with their ability to conjure and make compacts with the minions of those entities. The power of Goetia magic seem like it should be the exclusive province of warlocks and priests.

But the flavour doesn't talk about them being particularly good at conjuring and summoning creature. They've received their powers from extraplanar entities. That's it. Some might have conjured a devil to make a deal, but many, probably most, have gotten the fact from other circumstances. They were approached by a devil in a time of great need. The encountered a demon and pleaded their way out of being killed. They accidentally walked into an Archfey's territory, and came out with a pact. They were kidnapped by the fey (this is particularly thematic) and got the pact unwillingly. They were stalked by a fiend who waited for just the right moment to offer a deal. They started getting dreams from a Great Old One. They uncovered an ancient site of power where they could communicate with an ancient power.

And so on. Making pacts with something powerful doesn't mean you gotta be an expert and summoning and controlling creatures. And it hasn't meant that for D&D Warlocks, ever.

[Steampunkette]

CR is not the only thing up for consideration.

A CR 4 beast and a CR 4 celestial are going to have abilities that affect the game differently. For example, you can't conjure a tiger and give it complex instructions that you can to a person. A tiger might be able to scout the area ahead for danger, but a brownie can draw you a map.

Speech, rational thought, supernatural abilities, and much more affect the game and it's story a lot more than increased combat effectiveness.

[Karma Dragon]

And so on. Making pacts with something powerful doesn't mean you gotta be an expert and summoning and controlling creatures. And it hasn't meant that for D&D Warlocks, ever.

The flavor texts of Planar Ally and Warlock couldn't be more similar. Characters that are good at communicating and making pacts with powerful extra-planar entities should be good at communicating and making pacts with powerful extra-planar entities. I just don't understand what the theme of the class is otherwise.

[rollingForInit]

The flavor texts of Planar Ally and Warlock couldn't be more similar. Characters that are good at communicating and making pacts with powerful extra-planar entities should be good at communicating and making pacts with powerful extra-planar entities. I just don't understand what the theme of the class is otherwise.

The theme of the class as written is the relationship between the Warlock and the Patron, and the way their often opposing goals come into play. While I agree that an experienced Warlock is probably good at communicating with extra-planar entities, that doesn't make them experts at summoning and binding extra-planar creatures. I could definitely see a Warlock subclass that focuses on that, other than that, the class is mostly just about the Warlock-Patron-relationship.

[JackPhoenix]

Few editions? You mean 4E and now 5E? I never played 4E because it sucked horribly.

Warlocks were always the ones who dealt with powerful extra-planar entities. It's still in their descriptive text, but nowhere in their game design. It's the reason warlocks don't have powerful AOE spells. They even took the Alienist, which was specifically a summoner class, and turned it into a warlock subclass for 5E. How are you supposed to deal with entities from other dimensions if you have no way to actually interact with them?

Never. In 3.5 warlock had no summoning invocations either. GoO lock isn't the same thing that Alienist was, which was more for wizards or maybe crazy druids.

The only warlock based around summoning things was in WoW (and Warcraft D20 RPG based on 3.5 D&D, but that was specific setting thing and it was prestige class for mages anyway)

edit: In fact, 5e warlock is a better summoner then the 3.5 version, because it have access to Minions of Chaos invocation that summons elementals.

[Karma Dragon]

GoO lock isn't the same thing that Alienist was, which was more for wizards or maybe crazy druids.

I don't care about game mechanics. I care about roleplaying tools. GOO and Alienist are exactly the same flavor class. They are the only classes in 3E and 5E that deal with psuedonatural entities from the far realms beyond the bounded cosmos.

Crazy druid alienist? That sounds like pure mechanical thinking to me. The two have nothing to do with each other. Yes, alienist was a prestige class of wizard but now it's a subclass of warlock.

[Nu]

It doesn't seem like you came here for discussion. It seems like you've made an opinion and come here to complain about an aspect of the game, and you'll disregard any evidence to the contrary without any concessions whatsoever.

If it's only flavor you care about, when why are you so concerned with mechanics in your OP? Warlocks didn't have any emphasis on summoning magic in either 3rd or 4th (Alienist is not warlock and has nothing to do with it), it was a blaster in both editions, so it should not be a big surprise that it is also a blaster in 5th. The flavor behind the warlock is that it makes a pact with a powerful otherworldly entity in exchange for power, not that it summons and binds extraplanar creatures to serve it. Those two things are not the same.

[JackPhoenix]

I don't care about game mechanics. I care about roleplaying tools. GOO and Alienist are exactly the same flavor class. They are the only classes in 3E and 5E that deal with psuedonatural entities from the far realms beyond the bounded cosmos.

Crazy druid alienist? That sounds like pure mechanical thinking to me. The two have nothing to do with each other. Yes, alienist was a prestige class of wizard but now it's a subclass of warlock.

Alienist is a summoner (most likely wizard or druid, because they are the most interested in and the most capable of summoning extraplanar creatures) who summons and controls the creatures from Far Realm at the cost of his own sanity and eventualy changing into a aberration him- or herself.

GoO lock is a caster who made a pact with eldritch abomination which may or may not be from Far Realm to get power in exchange for his or her services. The power granted is based mostly around mind control.

How are they exactly the same flavor? It's like saying cleric worshipping Asmodeus, wizard who summons and binds devils to serve him, sorcerer with a trace of devil's blood, warlock who has sold his soul to an archdevil for power and a random tiefling are exactly the same thing, just because their magic is related to a LE fiend.

[Dalebert]

CR represents it's threat level in combat. That's all. An elemental is smarter and has some special abilities that can prove useful in certain situations. For instance, an earth elemental could earth glide under a door and open it from the other side for you. A fey can actually cast spells on your behalf. A dryad can summon 40 good berries a day! I haven't looked at celestials, but I'm sure the same applies in addition to what has already been pointed out--they won't suddenly turn on you. It's very myopic to just look at CR and think in terms of "how much damage can this thing dish out in a fight" when summonings often last an hour and thus allow for much more complex tasks to be done on your behalf.

And I agree with RollingforInit. My first 5e character was a warlock and it never once occurred to me that maybe he summoned something to make a pact with it. He's a GoO lock. A 0th level character didn't freakin' summon Cthulhu. I decided that he was contacted telepathically by some bestial entity involved with some mind flayer cult and had a bunch of nightmares and was essentially manipulated into a pact and granted power to help accomplish the entities desired goals.

Even if warlocks were summoners, they presumably weren't capable of summoning anything BEFORE they were locks. It doesn't make sense to say they're summoners just because they made a pact with something. Might they gain an ability to summon some creatures to serve them as part of a pact? Sure. Must they? Absolutely not.

[MaxWilson]

Someone please explain why:

3rd level Conjure Animal = CR 2
4th level Conjure Minor Elementals = CR 2
4th level Conjure Woodland Beings = CR 2
5th level Conjure Elemental = CR 5
6th level Conjure Fey = CR 6
7th level Conjure Celestial = CR 4

What crack were these guys smoking? This is all over the place, which means either the spells aren't balanced or the CRs aren't balanced.

Both. A CR 4 Couatl is far more powerful and useful as an ally than a CR 5 Water Elemental.


I don't really have a justification for why Conjure Animal gets you a creature of the same CR as the 4th level spells. Beasts aren't markedly worse than elementals or fey of the same level.

Note that Conjure Animals is also superior from an action economy perspective: 1 Action to cast instead of 1 Minute for Conjure (Minor) Elemental(s).

[Belac93]

The flavor texts of Planar Ally and Warlock couldn't be more similar. Characters that are good at communicating and making pacts with powerful extra-planar entities should be good at communicating and making pacts with powerful extra-planar entities. I just don't understand what the theme of the class is otherwise.

Warlocks have always been blasters. And, although it doesn't seem like it at first, they are decent summoners. They can have Pact of the Chain, which gives them a permanent minion that they can see through. At higher levels, they get the ability to summon elementals and cast hold monster on celestials, fiends, and fey. They get contact other plane, conjure fey, magic circle, and banishment. Why did you think that they had bad summoning flavor? Maybe they aren't amazing at actual summoning, but the flavor for it is still there, even more than in 4th, and I believe more than 3rd (didn't play to much of that).

[Karma Dragon]

It doesn't seem like you came here for discussion. It seems like you've made an opinion and come here to complain about an aspect of the game, and you'll disregard any evidence to the contrary without any concessions whatsoever.

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

[tieren]

What do warlocks summon with their conjure fey spell at 6th level?

I've been through the books and don't see anything of appropriate challenge rating, other than dinosaurs or mammoths.

[SharkForce]

What do warlocks summon with their conjure fey spell at 6th level?

I've been through the books and don't see anything of appropriate challenge rating, other than dinosaurs or mammoths.

so summon dinosaurs and mammoths :)

(that said, I seem to recall hags are a bit more than you can get with conjure woodland beings, and you don't have to only take CR 6 creatures, you can go less).

[tieren]

Sea hag at CR 2 or green hag at CR 3 (night hag is fiend). Seems pretty wasteful of the potential, conjure woodland beings can get you CR2 and it's only fourth level compared to 6th.

Then consider warlock only gets 1 6th level Arcanum ever, and why take this?

[CantigThimble]

If anything, Warlocks are the summoned creatures of their patrons. Summoning creatures from a different plane involves convincing, tricking or bribing them into performing services for you then binding them to a magical contract of some kind so they can't get out of it too easily. Warlocks are bribed into making contracts with patrons via their powers.

Now I totally want to have my player's fiend pact warlock summoned into the abyss to help fight some devils for a while before being sent back, it would be hilarious!

[SharkForce]

Sea hag at CR 2 or green hag at CR 3 (night hag is fiend). Seems pretty wasteful of the potential, conjure woodland beings can get you CR2 and it's only fourth level compared to 6th.

Then consider warlock only gets 1 6th level Arcanum ever, and why take this?

just to be clear, you do realise that you absolutely *can* summon a mammoth or dinosaur, right? i wasn't just goofing around when i said to do it, you can summon a fey in the form of a beast with the spell.

as to why use it over CWB, well, because WotC decided that you don't get to choose what appears when you cast CWB.

[tieren]

Yeah I know you can get it to take a beast shape. It just seems so much less interesting than conjuring an elemental.

If I were a fiend pact I would take create undead and get 3 permanent ghoul pets (permanent by using the Arcanum on it everyday).

As fey pact I'd just like something similar. Maybe I can talk my DM into letting me create twig blight or something.

[SharkForce]

Yeah I know you can get it to take a beast shape. It just seems so much less interesting than conjuring an elemental.

If I were a fiend pact I would take create undead and get 3 permanent ghoul pets (permanent by using the Arcanum on it everyday).

As fey pact I'd just like something similar. Maybe I can talk my DM into letting me create twig blight or something.

mass suggestion can give you much better than 3 ghoul pets on a given day. just remember, after recruiting your minions you promise to pay them *tomorrow* :P

[Kane0]

The summoning spells in the most recent UA might take your fancy, just allow warlocks to take them.

[Vogonjeltz]

Beasts aren't markedly worse than elementals or fey of the same level.

Fey or Celestials are more likely to have resistances/immunities or unusual powers (invisibility). This alone should account for why it would be worth casting a higher level spell to get a slightly lower CR celestial.

[SharkForce]

Fey or Celestials are more likely to have resistances/immunities or unusual powers (invisibility). This alone should account for why it would be worth casting a higher level spell to get a slightly lower CR celestial.

and beasts tend to have very good offense for their CR, and lots of HP, from what i've seen. there's reason to get a beast over a celestial too.

[Vogonjeltz]

and beasts tend to have very good offense for their CR, and lots of HP, from what i've seen. there's reason to get a beast over a celestial too.

Yeeeeesssss....but isn't it CR up to 2 vs CR up to 4? I'd imagine a CR 4 is substantially better than a CR 2.

[SharkForce]

Yeeeeesssss....but isn't it CR up to 2 vs CR up to 4? I'd imagine a CR 4 is substantially better than a CR 2.

conjure fey can get you beasts of CR up to 9 theoretically (of course, first there has to be a CR 9 beast in existence for a fey to copy) and you need to spend a level 9 spell slot... more practically speaking, CR 6 for a level 6 slot, which iirc is the same as conjure celestial.

[tieren]

Would it be weird to just let conjure fey summon a level 6 elf?

[mephnick]

Would it be weird to just let conjure fey summon a level 6 elf?

I'd make it just some random elf.

"Dude..I was just buying groceries..where the hell am I?"

[CantigThimble]

I'd make it just some random elf.

"Dude..I was just buying groceries..where the hell am I?"

Or if you summon someone genuinely powerful with 6 class levels then he tries to track you down and kill you.

OOH or even better, you get to know each other and become penpals!

[VoxRationis]

Would it be weird to just let conjure fey summon a level 6 elf?

In AD&D, Summon Monster spells weren't so plane-focused, and summoned just any old monster from the Material; it was listed as a possibility that player characters be summoned with it!

[Tanarii]

Elves aren't Fey.

Although it would have been cool to be able to summon a CR 6 Elven Mage NPC. :)

[Dalebert]

In AD&D, Summon Monster spells weren't so plane-focused, and summoned just any old monster from the Material; it was listed as a possibility that player characters be summoned with it!

I actually had the PCs get summoned by some extra-planar entities one time. In this game, all the PCs are dipping slightly into warlock against their will due to pacts made by their ancestors and they were summoned by hideous, inhuman lovecraftian-looking monsters to fight celestials. They were completely unable to deny commands by these things. It made them... uncomfortable.

[Sigreid]

mass suggestion can give you much better than 3 ghoul pets on a given day. just remember, after recruiting your minions you promise to pay them *tomorrow* :P

"I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a homicide today"?

[Onerai]

But the flavour doesn't talk about them being particularly good at conjuring and summoning creature. They've received their powers from extraplanar entities. That's it. Some might have conjured a devil to make a deal, but many, probably most, have gotten the fact from other circumstances. They were approached by a devil in a time of great need. The encountered a demon and pleaded their way out of being killed. They accidentally walked into an Archfey's territory, and came out with a pact. They were kidnapped by the fey (this is particularly thematic) and got the pact unwillingly. They were stalked by a fiend who waited for just the right moment to offer a deal. They started getting dreams from a Great Old One. They uncovered an ancient site of power where they could communicate with an ancient power.

And so on. Making pacts with something powerful doesn't mean you gotta be an expert and summoning and controlling creatures. And it hasn't meant that for D&D Warlocks, ever.

This, I agree with strongly.

I really like the Warlock thematically, but it's important to remember that someone who went looking for a "shortcut to power" (one of the better-known stereotypes of a Warlock) is generally doing so because they lack the power to summon such a being themselves. Were they possessed of enough sorcerous or wizardly talent to do so, such a character would not be a Warlock (or at least not a single-classed one; might be interesting for a multi-class build).

Now with that said, I do think it'd be interesting to have an option for Warlocks to do more summoning; not summoning of their patron specifically, but instead the ability to summon minions thereof. If you work for an Archfey, the ability to call up a lesser fey creature that also serves that being seems thematically appropriate; the same with fiends etc.

Tangent: I wonder if the OP might be thinking of a character archetype better associated with the 3.5 Binder? The relationship between a Binder and those they make pacts with holds a different balance: vestiges have only limited influence over the Binders who wield their powers and it is the Binder's magic that summons them to form the pact, rather than all the power coming from a patron. The OP mentioned Goetia, and if one examines the vestige seals from the Binder's rules they are heavily based on the Goetic keys of Solomon. I would be interested to see a 5E Binder update, I must admit.

[Strill]

Someone please explain why:

3rd level Conjure Animal = CR 2
4th level Conjure Minor Elementals = CR 2
4th level Conjure Woodland Beings = CR 2
5th level Conjure Elemental = CR 5
6th level Conjure Fey = CR 6
7th level Conjure Celestial = CR 4

CR does not reflect a monster's usefulness, only its raw attack and defense. Pixies are CR 1/8 and have a huge list of powerful spells that can lock down a fight.

Celestials tend to have a variety of strong support and utility spells that don't affect their CR. For example, The CR4 Celestial Couatl has a big list of powerful spells that do not affect its challenge rating. At 9th level, the Unicorn also has a variety of spells, as well as Legendary actions.

[MaxWilson]

"I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a homicide today"?

Someone's been reading the Dresden Files. :)

[Kryx]

Bumping the topic to focus on the conjure spells and not the warlock bit:

Celestial does seem quite low CR compared to the others.

Earlier it was mentioned that creatures turn on you if you lose concentration, but that does not seem to be the case:

An elemental summoned by this spell disappears when it drops to O hit points or when the spell ends.
That quote seems to be in all of the conjure spells.

Another topic of note: With Conjure minor elementals and similar spells it never makes sense to summon a larger CR creature. 8x CR 1/4 is pretty much the best option unless the enemy has substantial AoE (which is rare).
A caster could summon 8 steam mephits which is an injection of 168 hp with aoe breaths and some decent aoe damage on death. It seems quite strong compare to the other options.

[Flashy]

Earlier it was mentioned that creatures turn on you if you lose concentration, but that does not seem to be the case

Conjure Fey and Conjure Elemental both add an additional paragraph at the end of the description that seems to override the part you quoted. Conjure Celestial doesn't have the additional paragraph, and so the creature just vanishes as you suggest. They should really have grouped all the text about the spell ending together in the same part of the description to avoid confusion.



If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn’t disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes hostile toward you and your companions, and it might attack. An uncontrolled elemental can’t be dismissed by you, and it disappears 1 hour after you summoned it.

The remark someone made earlier in the thread about Conjure Celestial giving you access to additional spells may be fairly on point too. Conjuring a Couatl lets you cast both Scrying and Greater Restoration without needing the expensive material components.

[Kryx]

Ah, that explains the level disparity. Fine with me then.

Still this issue though:

Another topic of note: With Conjure minor elementals and similar spells it never makes sense to summon a larger CR creature. 8x CR 1/4 is pretty much the best option unless the enemy has substantial AoE (which is rare).
A caster could summon 8 steam mephits which is an injection of 168 hp with aoe breaths and some decent aoe damage on death. It seems quite strong compare to the other options.

[SharkForce]

i wouldn't say it *never* makes sense to take the other options. for starters, you may want an ability not found at CR 1/4. you can summon a gang of apes to throw boulders at your enemies, but they need to be CR 1/2. a giant eagle is strong and can understand common (and speak giant eagle if that helps you in any way), while a giant bat can't talk and a giant owl isn't strong enough to carry much. giant spiders have a ranged web attack while giant wolf spiders won't. giant wasps are great against regenerating enemies. a war horse is generally a much more useful mount if you expect to get into combat than a riding horse (especially if you happen to have or are able to make plate barding for them).

then there's niche scenarios where your enemy *does* have lots of AoE, or where available space is limited and you'd much rather have the barbarian and the paladin up front doing their thing than a pair of wolves.

i'd say that while it isn't necessarily in perfect balance (you are correct in that when situations allow, you'll generally get better results from more low CR enemies), there are situations where different options can make sense, and that is good enough.

[Kryx]

WotC math:
CR 2 x 1 = 2
CR 1 x 2 = 2
CR .5 x 4 = 2
CR .25 x 8 = 2

Math based on DMG multiple enemy multipliers:
CR 2 (450 xp) x 1 = 450
CR 1 (200 xp) x 2 = 400 xp x 1.5 multiplier = 600 xp
CR .5 (100 xp) x 4 = 400 xp x 2 multiplier = 800 xp
CR .25 (50 xp) x 8 = 400 xp x 2.5 multiplier = 1000 xp

That seems quite ridiculous to me.

Should be:
CR 2 (450 xp) x 1 = 450
CR 1 (200 xp) x 2 = 400 xp x 1.5 multiplier = 600 xp
CR .5 (100 xp) x 3 = 300 xp x 2 multiplier = 600 xp
CR .25 (50 xp) x 6 = 300 xp x 2 multiplier = 600 xp

That way the smaller CR is still viable - potentially even the best option still, but at least the other options become worth considering.


Though as a 3rd or 4th level spell (meaning 5th or 7th level PCs) it should maybe buff the other CRs to match the small ones. In which case you'd have to adjust toward 1350 xp:
CR 2 (450 xp) x 2 = 450 xp x 1.5 multiplier = 1350 xp
CR 1 (200 xp) x 3 = 600 xp x 1.5 multiplier = 1200 xp
CR .5 (100 xp) x 6 = 600 xp x 2 multiplier = 1200 xp
CR .25 (50 xp) x 10 = 500 xp x 2.5 multiplier = 1250 xp

Though that seems a bit much.. One could try to aim in the middle with a mix of different CRs, but that gets complicated.

You could try aiming for 900xp and do something like
CR 2 + CR 1
CR 1 + CR .5 + CR .25
etc.

Though the DMG's multiplier jumps way too much at 3 monsters to have that balance..

The 600 XP option above is probably the best.

[MaxWilson]

WotC math:
CR 2 x 1 = 2
CR 1 x 2 = 2
CR .5 x 4 = 2
CR .25 x 8 = 2

Math based on DMG multiple enemy multipliers:
CR 2 (450 xp) x 1 = 450
CR 1 (200 xp) x 2 = 400 xp x 1.5 multiplier = 600 xp
CR .5 (100 xp) x 4 = 400 xp x 2 multiplier = 800 xp
CR .25 (50 xp) x 8 = 400 xp x 2.5 multiplier = 1000 xp

You're neglecting the fact that there's a bunch of PCs already involved in the encounter. Using the x1 multiplier for a lone CR 2 monster is inappropriate when it's actually a CR 2 monster surrounded by a bunch of level 5 and 6 PCs.

[Tanarii]

Good call. For a party of four, it pans out as:

CR 2: 450 x2 = 900
CR 1: 400 x2 = 800
CR 1/2: 400 x2.5 = 1000
CR 1/4: 400 x3 = 1200

So less than a 50% disparity, not 3x. That disparity becomes even less for a larger party. And it's not considering that you're not supposed to include creatures at all if they're CR is significantly below the groups. (5th level PCs would be about CR 2 if you assume they give as much XP as 1/4 of a CR 5 creature.)

[KorvinStarmast]

@Kryx and Tanarii: thanks for putting your fingers (numbers and crunchies) on something that had been bugging me about Summons. :smallsmile:

@OP: thanks for opening this thread, it ended up in some great exploration of Warlocks (which is the class I hope to play next when our current adventure ends ... if it ever does).

[Kryx]

Good call. For a party of four, it pans out as:

CR 2: 450 x2 = 900
CR 1: 400 x2 = 800
CR 1/2: 400 x2.5 = 1000
CR 1/4: 400 x3 = 1200

So less than a 50% disparity, not 3x. That disparity becomes even less for a larger party. And it's not considering that you're not supposed to include creatures at all if they're CR is significantly below the groups. (5th level PCs would be about CR 2 if you assume they give as much XP as 1/4 of a CR 5 creature.)
Nice. It's around the 900 I was aiming for! So if we were to balance the lower CRs:

4 PCs:
CR 2 (450 xp) x 2 = 900
CR 1 (200 xp) x 2 = 400 xp x 2 multiplier = 800 xp
CR .5 (100 xp) x 3 = 300 xp x 2.5 multiplier = 750 xp
CR .25 (50 xp) x 6 = 300 xp x 2.5 multiplier = 750 xp

I think the value of the low CRs is still there - tons of soak hp.

[Twelvetrees]

Tangent: I wonder if the OP might be thinking of a character archetype better associated with the 3.5 Binder? The relationship between a Binder and those they make pacts with holds a different balance: vestiges have only limited influence over the Binders who wield their powers and it is the Binder's magic that summons them to form the pact, rather than all the power coming from a patron. The OP mentioned Goetia, and if one examines the vestige seals from the Binder's rules they are heavily based on the Goetic keys of Solomon. I would be interested to see a 5E Binder update, I must admit.

Well, there's this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430658-PEACH-Fifth-Edition-Binder-Class-II-(Still-WIP)). Admittedly, it is a homebrew update of the Binder, but it's not bad at all.