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vaultdweller7
2007-06-10, 08:41 PM
The wizard sighed, he had lead his group of adventures, himself, a ranger, a cleric, and an unarmed fighter into these ruins in search of a great hidden treasure, and they had found it.

And more specifically the treasureís current owner, a very large red dragon.

He turned to his friends already thinking of a plan to defeat the creature, only to realize that the fighter had already charged into battle. The adventures could only watch as the dragon breathed fire directly at their friend, and then gaped in shock as he jumped over the flames and punched the dragon in the head knocking it to the ground.


Mighty Brawler

Prerequisites:
Alignment: Any non-lawful
Skills: Jump 8 ranks, Tumble 8 ranks
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Stike), Improved Bull Rush.

Hit Die: d10.
Class Skills: Tumble, Jump.
Skill Points at each additional level: 2 +Int Mod.


Mighty Brawler
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+1| Treat unarmed attack as one size category higher, Leap Attack
2nd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1|Add +1d3 to unarmed attack damage
3rd|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2| Add +1d3 to unarmed attack damage
4th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+2| Treat unarmed attack as two size categories higher
5th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+3| Add +1d3 to unarmed attack damage
6th|
+6|
+3|
+3|
+3| Add +1d3 to unarmed attack damage
7th|
+7|
+4|
+4|
+4| Treat unarmed attack as three size categories higher
8th|
+8|
+4|
+4|
+4| Add +1d3 to unarmed attack damage
9th|
+9|
+5|
+5|
+5| Add +1d3 to unarmed attack damage
10th|
+10|
+5|
+5|
+5| Treat unarmed attack as four size categories higher [/table]

Class Features

The brawlers unarmed attack is treated as a larger size category that his own increasing at the 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th levels

The brawler adds an extra +1d3 to his unarmed attack damage every level except for level 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th. this is added after the damage from the size increase.

Leap Attack
When making a bull-rush attack (while unarmed) on an enemy larger than him, the brawler leaps high into the air to punch the target from above, after the attack that leap back 5-ft for each size categories larger that him. On a critical hit the enemy is knocked prone.


What do you think? Any balance issues?

Arbitrarity
2007-06-10, 09:06 PM
Your saves are ****** beyond belief. Also, this is so very broken otherwise I can't begin to concieve of it. If the damage increase works with the size increase, and we have ex-monks... well. Let's say that 64d6 punches aren't funny.

Nice try with the alignment to block monk. Ex monk>you :smallamused:

3 class skills?!

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-10, 11:09 PM
Uh.. Right. That was abit of a jerk-response, so heres something nice to offset it.

First, if you don't want Monk added into the class(which, honestly, I don't see why not since Monk desperately needs a boost) then add a clause that a Monk could not become a Mighty Brawler. Just straight out say "Any character with levels of Monk cannot take a level in the Mighty Brawler PrC".

Also.. I don't what the other guy is talking about, but a 1d3 unarmed strike comes out to 2d6 at Colossal. But you may wanna specify that the +1d3 extra doesn't stack, else you get 18d6 Colossal sized punches.

vaultdweller7
2007-06-10, 11:25 PM
First, if you don't want Monk added into the class(which, honestly, I don't see why not since Monk desperately needs a boost) then add a clause that a Monk could not become a Mighty Brawler. Just straight out say "Any character with levels of Monk cannot take a level in the Mighty Brawler PrC".

Also.. I don't what the other guy is talking about, but a 1d3 unarmed strike comes out to 2d6 at Colossal. But you may wanna specify that the +1d3 extra doesn't stack, else you get 18d6 Colossal sized punches.


I changed it a bit after he replied

They don't have to be non-monk, It can be an non-lawful ex-monk the Idea behind the non-lawful part is that the brawler uses a more random and chaotic fighting style, and they tend to be reckless when fighting.

The max damage as I rewrote it as comes to 2d6(for the Colossal sized punches)+6d3 damage (for bonus damage)

JackMage666
2007-06-10, 11:35 PM
Just as a player, this would be annoying because, in essence, d3s are annoying. After all, very few people actually take the time to buy d3s, so you'd have to roll 6d4, and subract 1 from each, or 6d6 and divide each die in half. It'd get old quick, and you'd have to do it multiple times a round.

I suggest replacing either those with a d4, or set damage (+2 damage would work).

Ceiling009
2007-06-10, 11:56 PM
I would probably agree, a flat damage bonus would be... well I think it's nicer cause then at a flat +2 per d3 instead is a guaranteed 12 points... which is average of 4d6... Since he doesn't get the monk's unarmed strike so that basically makes it 2d6 +12 + str which a decent fighter should have a 20 in... so basically 23 damage per hit. It's not bad, and since it basically doesn't get any other class features, and lack of skills, he's good enough. Though the lack of skills and other class features basically make this class not so interesting...

Naga-Darmag
2007-06-11, 03:28 AM
A level 5 X-monk and level 10 Mighty Brawler unarmed damage = 6d6+6d3+str mod (lets say +3), thatís 21+9+3=33p damage on average per hit

A level 5 anything and level 10 Mighty Brawler (Book of nine swords) with the superior unarmed strike feat unarmed damage = 6d8+6d3+str mod (lets say +3), thatís 27+9+3=39p damage on average per hit, increasing to 8d6 at level 6 anything .

If we use Ceiling009 example fighter and ad the Mighty Brawler feat and use the +2 instead of d3 suggestion (with I agree is easier) you get a 44p damage average at 3 attacks per round.

That is about 9 p les than the average damage a 15 level wizards high level spell do, witch he can use (with 20 int) 5 times a day. Not 3 times a round.

So in my opinion a bit uninteresting on its own and to easily broken.

Ceiling009
2007-06-11, 03:42 AM
The class is sort of uninteresting, though I think it would make a great NPC more than a PC, so I don't think it's a particularly bad class... About it being broken? Not so much, though he does deal a good amount of damage at level 15 per round... but remember a good wizard doesn't really use blast spells, and if he did, they would probably be AoE... this guy has to basically go through one person at a time, while a wizard can easily just target a group and do the same damage to all of them at the same time. That's only if a wizard wants to blast... remember thier save or dies or save or be screwed spells... like a good chunk of necromancy, disintergrate, and hold person... not to mention since he doesn't have weapons, he uses unarmed strikes, he doesn't get a lot of the special monk abilities to bypass DR, he's relatively tame... sure if this guy does manage to get someone in a corner, and that someone isn't a DMM cleric or a druid, they're going to receive a pretty good pounding... and remember, if a rogue is attacking someone flanked, every attack deals sneak attack damage... so a rogue with a short sword is dealing 9d6 + str for ever attack that round at level 15, and his weapons can be enchanted. So this guy could be interesting, at least as an NPC to me... as for constructive criticism, I would probably add a few more class features and remove some of the added damage as an exchange, maybe give him some DR or something else other than just being a fist... and large one at that... also, I would lower some of the saves... maybe make the Fort save good... the Will save okay, and the ref save on par or less with the will save to sort of balance him out... I don't see a brawler or a giant fist being particularly speedy but the will power can go either way, I'd probably lower it. But reiterating, it's nice, needs a lot of work, but it could be interesting.

Naga-Darmag
2007-06-11, 06:57 AM
I to like the feel of the class, the heavily armoured fighter with heavy gauntlets pounding the crap out of a mind flayer or a lit armoured tavern brawler. Mmmmmm. But I still think its to easily broken and, yes in desperate need of some fluff. So I tried to do a bit of redesigning, you can use it if you want and if not its up for grabs for anyone who want to compete the work.

Hd 1d12
Ba full
Saves fort good
will poor
Ref (good or poor, I donít know)
Skill points 2/level
Class skills: Climb, craft, intimidate, jump & tumble



Unarmed damage = same as a monk of Mighty Brawlerís level +2
(does not stack with regular monks unarmed damage but stacks with prestige classes that give improved unarmed damage, like sacred fist and enlightened fist. It also stacks with feats and magic items that improve a monks unarmed damage, like mighty brawler and monks belt. if the character has both Unarmed damage from monk and Mighty Brawler, use with ever is higher). (a medium size level 10 Mighty Brawler have a Unarmed damage like a level 12 large (se Powerful brawler below) monk (3d6 + str mod))

Level 4 Powerful brawler:
The character is treated as 1 size larger to determine the effects of grapple, Bull Rush, overrun, unarmed trip and disarm attempts, and the amount unarmed damage your character does.

Fighter feats:
~ 3 fighter feats at different levels lets say 2, 5 & 8

Ignore pain:
At level 2 the Mighty Brawler can ignore 3 points of non lethal damage from every source that del this kind of damage to the Mighty Brawler, this improves to 6 points at level 6 and 9 at level 10. (Not a particularly powerful ability but fun at the tavern brawl),

Fight dirty:
A elbow to the temple ore knee to the groin, you donít hesitate to fight dirty and its there fault to give you the chance in the first pleas, right? You gain a +1d6 sneak attack only usable with unarmed attacks at level ?, increasing to 2d6 at level ?

Uncanny dodge & improved uncanny dodge?

Leap Attack:
work on the description I you keep it (I find it a bit difficult to se how rules from your description). You probably know this, but just in case I like to point out that Bull Rush can only be used at opponents 1 size larger than you (2 if you use Powerful brawler) and I think thatís a good limit fore this special ability. After all you can knock a huge giant on its as with a good hit).
Hmmm maybe dump the leaping part and let you knock your opponent prone (regardless of size as long as its not to large to Bull Rush) if you defeat your opponent with 5 or 10 points in the opposed strength test (after all there is no attack roll in a Bull Rush attempt so ho do you critical hit?)

Arbitrarity
2007-06-11, 07:33 AM
How does one get such cheese as I described?

Goliath ex-monk 9, mighty brawler 10.

With a monk's belt. And improved natural attack (fist). And at least enlarge person. Preferably a ring of expansion (3 sizes)

Assuming the extra d3's don't get size increased, then you have a mere 24d6+6d3 per hit. Or, with the ring, 48d6+6d3.

And the earler number assumed the d6's added.

And what's with the saves, again?

Droodle
2007-06-11, 07:45 AM
How does one get such cheese as I described?

Goliath ex-monk 9, mighty brawler 10.
That build isn't possible. Monks don't get specialization.

Naga-Darmag
2007-06-11, 08:09 AM
Droodle is right you got to have a fighter level of 4 to be a Mighty Brawler, thatís not necessarily a good thing sins Iíd like to se barbarians or swashbucklers as Mighty Brawlers. So if you use any of my suggestions, you might as well change the Prerequisites. Maybe something like:
Prerequisites:
Alignment: Any non-lawful
Base attack: +5
Skills: Tumble 4 ranks
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush.


Also I felt like doing some math on the Leap Attack just to se if it might work, I chose a Juvenile Read dragon sins itís the biggest of the read dragons without being huge, sins you described the opponent in the example as a ®very large red dragon® and made the fighter a level 15 Maxt out on str because I didnít think he had a particularly good chance to sussed. (Yes 3 level 15 characters against a cr 10 monster, defiantly a glorious victory)

Juvenile Read dragon (large size, cr 10) str 29
Maxt out human Fighter (medium size) str 18+3(level)+6(belt)+1(manual of ---)= str 28

Dragon +9(str)+4(size)+1d20
Fighter +9(str)+4(inprowed bull ruch)+2(charge)+1d20

A bit less then 50% to be knocked back 5f by the dragon
A bit over 50% to knock the dragon back 5f,
A bit less then 5% chance to knock the dragon prone (if a critical hit in a bulrush means rolling a natural 20 on the opposed str roll and the opponent donít roll a natural 20 of its own)

Iíd never us that attack with so little chance of axially doing something useful (especially if I cold reduce the ugly lizard to a sticky paste with about 4 hits)


Edit: Reduced the number of feats in the Prerequisites to 3 so a human non fighter can take the prestige class at level 6. :smallredface:

vaultdweller7
2007-06-11, 09:22 PM
Ok, I've changed a few things (Made Leap Attack a charge attack) and some new features.

The main idea behind this class is an unarmed fighter that trains to fight creatures many times their own size.

Mighty Brawler

Prerequisites:
Alignment: Any non-lawful (No completely sane and orderly minded person would think that attacking creatures many times their size is "fun")
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Stike), power attack.
Special:Must defeat an opponent at least one size category larger in unarmed single combat.

Hit Die: d10.
Class Skills: Tumble, Jump.
Skill Points at each additional level: 2 +Int Mod.


Mighty Brawler
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+0| Brawler's Might (one size increase), Leap Attack
2nd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+0|Brawler's fist 1
3rd|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+0|Ignore pain (3 points)
4th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+1| Brawler's Might (two size increase)
5th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+1|Brawler's fist 2
6th|
+6|
+3|
+3|
+1|Ignore pain (6 points)
7th|
+7|
+4|
+4|
+2| Brawler's Might (Three size increase)
8th|
+8|
+4|
+4|
+2|Brawler's fist 3
9th|
+9|
+5|
+5|
+2|Ignore pain (9 points)
10th|
+10|
+5|
+5|
+3| Brawler's Might (four size increase)[/table]

Class Features

Brawler's Might
The character is treated as a larger size category that his own to determine the effects of grapple, Bull Rush, overrun, unarmed trip and disarm attempts, and the amount unarmed damage the brawler does increasing at one size at level 1, two sizes at level 4, three sizes at 7, and four sizes at level 10.

Brawler's fist
By way of the brawlerís own personal ďtraining programĒ (punching very hard objects as hard as he can) the brawler strengthens his own fist in much the same way a monk does

At level two, his unarmed attack is treated as a +1 magic weapon (for bypassing Damage reduction only) ignores 1 point of hardness and does 1d4 extra damage

At level five, he now ignores 2 points of hardness and does 2d4 extra damage

At level eight, he now ignores 3 points of hardness and does 3d4 extra damage

Ignore pain
At level 3 the Mighty Brawler can ignore 3 points of non-lethal damage from every source that deals this kind of damage to the Mighty Brawler, this improves to 6 points at level 6, and 9 points at level 9. (Thanks to Naga-Darmag)

Leap Attack
When making a charge attack (while unarmed) on an enemy larger than him, the brawler leaps into the air to punch the target from above, after the attack the brawler may choose to use the force of his blow to leap back 5-ft for each size category the enermy has above him. On a critical hit the enemy is knocked prone.


An extra rule idea I had

Each time you gain a size category increase (at levels one, four, seven, and ten) you must defeat an opponent of that size before you can progress further in the class.
This does not need to be a real battle against an enemy, just a fair one on one fight. Ex: convince a good dragon to spar with you, and then grapple it into a pin during the fight.

Arbitrarity
2007-06-11, 09:31 PM
Erm... sorry to bother again, but DR/+3 is so passe. We don't have that anymore. We have DR/magic, because this is 3.5, and in 3.5, WOTC decided to nerf some monsters horribly.

Naga-Darmag
2007-06-13, 08:58 AM
For things I want to keep ranting about :smallredface: than I go away, ok :smallbiggrin: .

1. The unarmed damage is still easy to brake :smallmad: , and I donít even try to brake it. There is plenty of people out there ho is much batter at that then me.

2. The saves there still weird.

fort & dex +2, +3, +3, +4, +4, +5, +5, +6, +6 & +7
Will +0, +0, +1, +1, +1, +2, +2, +2, +3 & +3


3. The brawlerís might special ability, please please please please only ones :smalleek: . Getting the ability to take on huge creature with a bull rush or grapple is extraordinary as it is. Taking on a colossal creature by grappling it is just plane ridicules. First take a look at this picture (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph35_gallery/PHB35_PG150_WEB.jpg) and if you still want to keep it at it is, take a look at my calculations under the next spoiler and ask yourself what you men by ®an unarmed fighter that trains to fight creatures many times their own size®.


A storm giant is about 4 times a tall as a human but that doesnít mean it is 4 times ass big. A batter idťe is to look at he measurement of size that probably has the biggest effect on bull rush and grapple, weight.

Human size medium > 250 pounds is the upper limits according to the human racial description.

Troll size large ~ 500 pounds = twice ass big

Storm giant size huge ~ 12,000 pounds = 48 times bigger

Purple worm size gargantuan ~ 40,000 pounds = 160 times bigger

Red dragon size colossal ~ 1,280,000 pounds = 5,120 times bigger


4. How tall a creature can you use it on without a jump check. And how do you stop your players from using this ability to jump the same distance to the top of the wall, after all watts the deferens. And before you decide you might want to take a look at some calculations I could not resist doing on this


A closer look at Leap Attack
how difficult is it to reach the head of a titan (huge) when it is standing upright?

Titan 25 feet tall

Human (medium size) reach distance without jump check 8f

17 feet remaining

Jump dc (with 20 foot running start) = number of feetís * 4 = 68 :smalleek:


I hope you can get a balanced class and still keep the flavour you are after.
Good luck. :smallcool:

TO_Incognito
2007-06-13, 09:02 AM
Gah, truly, the saving throws make my eyes bleed. There are exactly two save progressions in 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons.

Otherwise, I do like the feel of the class.

Dryad
2007-06-13, 07:57 PM
A + 16 to grapples out of size alone is a bit much... Counting +4 for improved grapple, +15 b.a.b and, at that level, at least a str bonus of +4, not counting magic items, you get a +39 to grapple checks at lvl 15. A +39 clean bonus.