Complete Champion - Spiritual Totem

[Ashes]

So, I was just reading Complete Champion, and I was browsing over the alternative class features. Barbarians can choose to gain a spirit totem instead of their fast movement, and some of them (bear) seemed nice, while some (Wolf, Eagle) were kinda meh. Then I noticed the Lion. It grants you the Pounce ability. Now, I was under the impression that this was a quite powerful ability, just by virtue of it begin very F'ing hard to get, outside homebrew items or friendly spellcasters.

But apparently it's balanced with +10 ft lands peed or a +2 on attack rolls when flanking? :smallconfused: Does this seem right to you?

[Morty]

Honestly, no. Pounce ability pumps barbarians power waaay up. Combine with Frenzied Berserker or something alike and profit. Additional land speed is nice, but ability to pummel enemies into bloody pulps and overcome meleeers' biggest weakness... yeah.
BTW, on which level do you get it?

[Tellah]

It's really good. Just about every TWF build I see on the Character Optimization boards includes a dip into Barbarian for the Pounce ability.

[Ashes]

BTW, on which level do you get it?

Level 1.

And it isn't balanced with the other choices at all, either. +4 to spot and search? Which can be improved to something like +8? Who cares when you can pounce... :smallmad:

[Morty]

Level 1.

And it isn't balanced with the other choices at all, either. +4 to spot and search? Which can be improved to something like +8? Who cares when you can pounce... :smallmad:

Well, then as Tellah said it turns Barbarian into awesome dip for any TWFer. Also, it makes Fighter cry even more.

[Tellah]

Well, then as Tellah said it turns Barbarian into awesome dip for any TWFer. Also, it makes Fighter cry even more.

Well, with the advent of the Tome of Battle, the core melee classes remain excellent dip choices but have little else to recommend them. They're all very front-loaded, and I don't see any design choices being made to address that.

[Morty]

Well, not everyone uses ToB. I, for instance don't. Without ToB, this variant pumps barbarian up significantly, as well as makes him excellent dip. I wouldn't take it in normal, low-to-mid level campaign, but if you're playing high-powered, high-level campaign, taking this variant would allow barbarian to be more on par with casters and enemies.

[Person_Man]

I would have given it to the Barbarian at level 6ish instead. But yes, its a good ability. Pretty much every melee build should now dip one level into Barbarian for it, assuming your alignment allows it.

Keep in mind that after level 5ish, even the best melee builds have a very hard time keeping up with any full caster build (and many psionic builds as well). So I have no objection to giving Barbarians a lot more power. I just wish they had thought it through better.

Also, I can currently think of at least 30 ways to get pounce by some other means. So its not like they're giving away anything new or game breaking. But this is clearly the quickest and easiest way.

[Morty]

Keep in mind that after level 5ish, even the best melee builds have a very hard time keeping up with any full caster build (and many psionic builds as well). So I have no objection to giving Barbarians a lot more power. I just wish they had thought it through better.


Exagerration. After 5 level and before 10, meleers are still more or less on par with casters. And if they aren't, it's not meleers' fault. But I agree that if you're going to play in optimization-heavy high-level campaign, it's the way to go.

[Like a Lion]

*pops into the gaming forum* Yeah, I was disgusted when I first looked at this ability, too... but keep in mind barbarians could sort of already pounce--there was a feat in Unapproachable East that let them pounce with light weapons.

[Piccamo]

Exagerration. After 5 level and before 10, meleers are still more or less on par with casters. And if they aren't, it's not meleers' fault. But I agree that if you're going to play in optimization-heavy high-level campaign, it's the way to go.

At level 5 casters start gaining 3rd level spells. That is when casters' spells really start getting bad.

[Aquillion]

And to be fair, even putting aside casters vs. fighters it's not like TWF characters couldn't use the boost... basically, any TWF build depends completely on some way to actually get those extra attacks in real combat. Without that, it's a useless path, whether you're comparing it to power-attacking THF or, well, anything else. Maybe pounce should be easier to get.

[Ramza00]

When I first saw the substitution option I was disgusted. I wasn't disgusted with the option of barbarians getting pounce, I am fine with that. I am disgusted they can get it at 1st lvl just for fast movement. It is literally something for almost nothing, and even if the barbarian is underclassed, it just "feels wrong."

I have no problems with them getting pounce. For 12,000 gp for a belt of battle a barbarian can give up his swift action for a move action and thus full attack 3 times per belt per day. (You can have multiple belts)

Here are other ways to get pounce or something similar.


Pounce - aka: full attack on a charge
----------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest Stormwind (link)
The Grand Compilation of Full-Attack Charging PC Tricks
(by approximate level of availability; missing Sandstorm, Lost Empires of Faerun, Lords of Madness, Heroes of Battle, Champions of Ruin)

NO TEMPLATES ARE LISTED HERE.

Also, certain abilities only work in the first round of combat. Others work any time they are used.

1) Snow Tiger Berserker feat (berserker lodge feat (RP restriction), light weapons only, Unapproachable East)
1) Lion Tribe Warrior (Regional feat, human only, single light weapon only, Shining South)
2) Catfolk Pounce feat (Racial feat: Catfolk, Races of the Wild. Available at character level 1, but listed at level 2 because of Catfolk's +1 LA)
4) Psionic Lion's Charge (2nd level psywar power, augments to add damage to each attack, Expanded Psionic's Handbook)
5) Lion's Charge (3rd level druid / 4th level ranger spell, most recent version Miniatures Handbook)
5) Wild Shape (Fleshraker, Monster Manual III)
6) Lion's Pounce Wild Feat (Complete Divine)
7) Polymorph spell (many forms grant Pounce or similar abilities)
7) Metamorphosis power (as Polymorph, but might require Supernatural Transformation)
8) Wild Shape (Tiger) (If Core-only.)
8) Weretouched II: Tiger (Weretouched Master prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, Eberron CS)
10) Pouncing Ambush (5th level Reachrunner prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, against flat-footed opponent only, Races of Eberron)
11) Lion's Pounce (4th level Sigh Rager prestige class ability, Oriental Adventures)
11) Lion's Pounce (5th level Lion of Talisid prestige class ability, Book of Exalted Deeds)
13) Drift 4: Pounce like a leopard (7th level Geomancer drift, Complete Divine)
17) Shapechange spell (many forms grant Pounce or an extra move action, or something sicker (Chronotryn (FF), Choker).)
17) Greater Metamorphosis power (As Shapechange, but may require Metamorphic Transfer feat)
21) Dire Charge epic feat (Widely accepted as at least slightly underpowered, but works regardless of your equipment or magic availability. Draconomicon)

Variable level: Claws of the Leopard (spiked gauntlets, Complete Adventurer, priced at 38,305. Only works with the claws themselves).

Note that the Great Granddaddy of Wild Shape, the Mulhorandi Divine Minion, may be able to pull off some of these far earlier than other characters.

With sufficient cheatery twinks, anything is possible.

Runner-ups (those with similar abilities that do not exactly count as charging):
Full Mounted Attack (Cavalier and Halfling Outrider, CW; Kishi Charger, OA, possibly others)
Dervish Dance (Dervish, CW)
Hustle (Psychic Warrior / Egoist power, XPH)
Wild Plains Offensive (Wild Plains Outrider, CV)
Shadow Pounce (Teflammar Shadowlord, UE)
Lion Tribe Warrior (Regional feat, two light weapons only, Shining South)
Two-Weapon Spring Attack (Tempest, CV)
Dimension Spring Attack (Elocator, XPH)
Black Magic Oil: Malign Fury (Warrior of Darkness, BoVD)
--------------------------------------------
10) Crinty Shadow Maurauder 5 (shadow pounce) - Shining South (Forgotten Realms)
11) Wildrunner 6 (primal scream: pounce) - Races of the Wild
11) Waverider 6, Savage Species, full mounted attack when mount moves more than 5 feet
12) Ashworm Dragon 7, Sandstorm, full mounted attack when mount moves more than 5 feet, but not on a charge
15) Blade of Orien 10, Eberron: Dragonmarked, full attack after dimension leap

Sphinx Claws, soulmeld, Magic of Incarnum, natural weapons only
Chupoclops, vestige, ecl 12, Tome of Magic
Pouncing Charge, Tiger Claw maneuver, Tome of Battle

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=662842

[Merlin the Tuna]

Also note that that post of Tempest's is from over two years ago. For example, Lion's Charge was updated in the Spell Compendium -- it's now Druid 3/Ranger 2 instead of 3/4.

[Matthew]

I have to agree, given what I am hearing about this. This is a prime example of Wizards just not caring enough to even pretend balance is a concern for them. That's absolutely a crazy powerful trade. They might as well have just made Pounce a Feat and been done with it (which I think would have been more balanced).

[Bosh]

Yeah, I was leafing through Complete Champion and that bit about pounce stuck out like a sore thumb. It is just so blatantly out of balance compared to the other options that it makes it look like Wizards isn't even making the most elementary attempts at playtesting. Its stuff like this that're making me give up on 3.5 D&D, if you play Core then the range of playable characters is pretty limited and full casters pwn meleers too much but if you start putting in more books to give people more flexibility the power gulf between people who do different amounts of min-maxing starts yawning ridiculously wide due to things like this. Its got to the point that while creating a character my top priority is to make a character that isn't too much more or less powerful than the party average rather, which really gets annoying.

Bleh.