[Dark Heresy 2E] Surrealistik's Armoury Revisions/Additions (PEACH)

[Surrealistik]

Per the following links:


Custom Rules: https://docs.google.com/document/d/13qxxM1HRHsRbKNQS8fzqoEjTd4mmPpbPZaqtOFfFgj4/edit?usp=sharing


Weaponry Table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fldqxiDigLdqRcDCqO_Y9HEVXEwZX_FDk_FCufCAl2I/edit?usp=sharing


Let me know what you think!

[ArcturusV]

Taking a look at this, will share my thoughts.


I will say that I have perhaps a different view of Las and SP than you do. And that reflects it. To me, and by the rules as written, the difference is a matter of skill. In the hands of a "Casual" shooter (Lower BS, lack of ranged combat related talents, etc), Las Weapons as written are superior to SP weapons. Not just for the matters of Logistics that people tend to quote, but also due to the Variable Setting Rule and Reliability, as well as the larger clip size on average.

Where SP weapons only really shine in the hands of Expert Marksmen which High BS and some investment in both time and equipment. This fits lore wise, as near as I remember. Where you see Veteran Badass Guardsmen use weapons like Shotguns or Heavy Stubbers, Autocannons, or Sniper Rifles over using Lascarbines and Lasguns.

So in particular I just feel like you're trying to correct something that doesn't really NEED correcting. I mean the Variable Setting Rule alone closed the gap between SP and Las as is (That and the prohibition against Mixed Special Ammo Types in RT, BC, OW, and Dark Heresy Mark II). The Lasgun doesn't really need the Fire Selector, etc. In part since the reason you get the Fire Selector for most people is less about ammo types in my experience, but more about Endurance (An Autogun can tap out in 3 rounds, which isn't often a problem but there are combats that last longer than 3 rounds often enough and sometimes it bites you in the ass), compared to the Lasgun having 20 rounds of firing flat out.

Just seems like you're fighting a battle that I haven't really seen as needed to fight by keeping Las vs SP up. I mean just by Only War Experience (Same system and rules for the two after all), it is INSANELY rare I see people actually take SP weapons over Las (like 1 out of 30 times). Dark Heresy characters tend to favor SP over Las, but this is less an artifact of Player Choice and more the fact that pretty much every background gives you SP over Las. When I see people make their Acquisitions, they go for Las and favor Lasguns over Autoguns.

Granted, could just be my experience and I'm willing to chalk it up to cultural differences of local player bases.

Same sort of deal applies with Firebombs and Frags, with the Half Action to Ready them before throwing I've seen Firebomb use drop FAAAAAR off from what I've seen in Only War, or Dark Heresy Mark 1. The variation of damage on Frag Grenades I do find hilarious, but I don't think it's quite as much of a problem as you've made out. Keep in mind the things that most Dark Heresy PCs fight as actual enemies are not really Flak Armored up behemoths.

I mean normally you're talking about things like Gangers that most Acolytes fight in terms of humans (least that I've ever seen in Dark Heresy Mark II, and Mark I for that matter). So 1 AP ganger leathers and 3 TB. Since by odd flukes most hits hit the legs you're talking 3 TB only. The only time an enemy is laughing off a Frag is if you roll what, a 3% chance of near minimal damage or Minimal Damage? Similarly you look at the Chaos Troop NPCs (What you'd use Frags against because numbers), and you're looking at average soaks of 3-4. It's not until you get to Xenos, in the Orks and Eldar you get an average soak of 7, meaning you have a somewhat possible chance of actually Bouncing off with a Frag Grenade... but then again Lore Wise that also fits. But on average they're going to still get rocked by it.

I'd consider removing Concussive, as that has the possibility of just one shoting a combat encounter. Might be what you want, but that's no joke. I mean throw out a Frag and I could end up getting a free +40 onto of a charge to finish them off before they can do anything. MIght be what you want... something I could see going badly in general though, particularly when your enemies start using it. For the concern about damage though if you put the Frags at Proven (3) that would mean anything other than Renegade Guardsmen, Eldar, and Orks will at least get hurt by them. And considering lore wise Flak Armor is meant to shrug off blasts, Orks are just thick as a brick, and Eldar have Super Tech... I'd be okay with that.

Other stuff I have no issues with, most of it is at least interesting effects. The Flame change makes Flame weapons even more devastating which might be a concern as Flame Weapons are already pretty much the best in the game (Baring Graviton weapon stupidity... I just don't like them for their Strictly Backwards Superior qualities). Might wonder what you give Tearing bonuses to. Probably Bolters? I mean if you want to talk about the real gap between weapon types and what needs buffing it'd probably be Plasma and Bolt. If only because Bolt Weapons, due to Training Needs, and the fact that they're just Guardsmen Equivalent Slayers (Which you basically never fight unless you go against Eldar) makes them usually a subpar choice compared to sticking with your well known and already trained up SP and Las Weapons. I mean why would I bother buying a talent and requisitioning a Bolter for 1d10+5 Pen 4 Tearing, when I already have a Shotgun hitting at 1d10+7 Pen 0, fighting against targets that have like 3 TB and 1 AP (Well usually zero, because again, legs get hit the most).

Or Plasma weaponry getting ignored for the higher damage and pen of Melta Weapons on a similar availability. I mean for the Meltagun you're looking at 2d10+10 Damage, Pen 12 (Possible 24 Pen), compared to the Plasma Gun at 1d10+7 (Potential 2d10+7), Pen 6 (Potential 8). Yeah the Plasma Gun has longer Range and clip size, but 5 shots is usually enough to handle a battle, and most of the places that Dark heresy games go are on a Void Ship, or in a Hive, or in Ruins, or Under a Hive, in Buildings, etc. Where engagement ranges are close enough to negate the Range Bonus.

[Surrealistik]

Thanks for the feedback Arcturus.

There are two major deficiencies with Las vs SP in the context of DH (which is the context I'm primarily concerned with).

One is that Las lacks Full-Auto. By itself this is devastating; Reliable (which is not especially impactful; always carry a spare; this goes double with Combat Vests being a thing) and Variable Settings don't come close to compensating for this due to Full-Auto's insane output, especially at Close/Point Blank Range where most combats are fought, and its superior synergy with the always ridiculously strong Suppressive Fire. Beyond that, there is also the matter of the aftermarket. Not being able to run Fire Selectors (which makes running out of ammo no longer a concern in practice) and Silencers is a huge detriment, as is not having access to specialized munitions.

Overall, the balance I'm striving for is Lasguns being better out of the box and Autoguns being better post-aftermarket. Currently Autoguns are superior in both categories. I feel that these modifications do this in a way that is also consistent with the lore and the actual properties of Lasguns.

Yes, there is a bias towards SP due to default training leaning that way (I prefer to let players choose between SP and Las whenever they would get to pick the former given the commonality of Las weapons), but SP is most certainly the better option in most cases as things stand.


With respect to Frag Grenades, it's not only a question of adequate damage output, though that's a concern; averaging 11 points of damage means you're putting out a net of 5 vs most enemies (assuming a TB of 3/4 and Armour of 2/3; I feel this to be a fair assumption as a baseline for assessing weaponry) which is underwhelming vis a vis most alternate uses of your action economy (like Suppression a Firebomb or Stun Grenade). Pretty much the only exception is if you can dunk enough grenades before your opponent gets initiative that you can outright kill them (and even then you'll still probably want to drop a Firebomb as some insurance). Overall there are so many better alternatives that I feel it very much needs the buff. With the damage bump and Concussive (0) I feel it becomes competitive with the likes of comparably rare (or more common alternatives). Yes, the Concussive property has the potential to autowin, but a Stun Grenade does that better while being more available/common.


With regards to Flame Weapons, I agree with the judgement that they're devastating; absolutely; the Flame property can be very potent in terms of denying action economy. The best weapons in the game though? Probably a bit of a stretch, particularly when you factor in things like Suppressive Fire and mass stuns and higher tier weapons. That said, the increment in Flame effectiveness isn't pertinent until you see higher PB psykers and heavier flame weaponry (whereupon foes are usually more likely to resist the panic). Note however that to compensate for the slight increment in power that some weapons receive I did intend (but forgot) to add an addendum that creatures with the From Beyond and/or Stuff of Nightmares traits (or that have pain immunity) are immune to the 'panic' effect of being on fire, which I feel both satisfies verisimilitude, and helps address balance concerns. Note also that the ability of Flame weapons to create explicit areas of fire that is capable of spreading, can put a damper on their use with respect to collateral damage and the potential for impedance.



Lastly I am definitely not done with the revisions/additions (especially with regards to more advanced weaponry). What I've authored so far essentially relates to the first things that came to mind (and actually came up!) during play and DMing.

[ArcturusV]

Well, I mean looking at the numbers I don't think SP is better out of the box necessarily.

I mean consider an out of the box, average character. I'm not talking a specialist in "Shoots a Gun" but an average character. Lots of background get an Autopistol so lets compare it to the Las Pistol as the nearest alternative.

Average starting BS is 31. And unless you're a specialist shooter you're not going to jack up BS (you really don't have to in my experience). Presuming standard combat shooting situations you'll most likely be at Short Range and using cover if you can. Say a typical Room Breech situation where you're using a doorway for Cover (AP 2 cover) and someone is like hiding behind a couch for AP 2 cover. Or the other way around.

Typical Modifiers that people will have is +10 for Short Range, and +0 for Semi-Auto Fire with the Laspistol, along with +10 for a Half Action Aim, and maybe a +10 for Command Inspiration if they have a Face Character Tactician involved (I've seen it happened, not too often though, more often in Only War, but again, not out of the realm of possibility).

This means they are looking at a baseline 61% chance of getting 1 hit, and 41% chance of getting the max hits of 2 (Presuming the Command Skill User), at 1d10+4 (In that situation most will Overcharge because it's what they do in my experience) Pen 2.

Presuming the scenario and standard enemy (Again, corresponding to an 'average' foe rather than an Elite one, so likely a troop with 3 TB, 1 AP on Arms and Body). Lets presume actual baseline average hit locations (Torso hit since it's mathematically more likely even if it's not the practical likely). Pen negates cover, average roll of 6 means 10 damage, 6 wounds inflicted per hit. With a 31% chance of two hits for 12 wounds.

With the Autopistol we presume a Full Auto Jackhammer. 31 BS, +10 Short Range, -10 Full Auto Attack, +10 Command, +10 Half Action Aim. So Baseline of 51% to hit. With 41% of two hits, 31% of three hits, 21% of four hits, 11% of five hits, and 1% of all 6 hits. At 1d10+2 Pen 0 damage you get an average hit roll of 6 for 8 damage. So the first hit does 2 Damage, second does 3 damage, third and subsequent shots do 4 damage each.

So presuming the same attack roll of 31% or less, the Autopistol is doing 9 damage against the Laspistol's 12.

Granted, yes, the Autopistol is better at Supressive Fire (A -20 Pinning Test as opposed to the Laspistol's -10 Pinning Test for Suppressive Fire). But in terms of sheer "I kick your ass" the stock Laspistol (Thanks to Variable Setting which people use on max almost as a given) ends up doing better unless in that scenario the character rolls 21% or less. Due to the nature of mutiple hits vs soak instead of higher damage shots.

Granted, with actually well trained shooters this changes a lot. Same situation but say:

Manstopper Round Autogun with a 50 BS character, vs a Lasgun user with 50 BS you end up with:

Manstopper Round Autogun: 50 + 10 Short Range -10 Full Auto +10 Half Action Aim + 10 Inspired, baseline of 70%. Average To Hit roll of 50 means two hits of 1d10+3 Pen 3, hitting the target for on average 9 Damage per hit (27 on the average to hit roll), which likely just annihilated the target in a hail of bullets.

Lasgun: 50 +10 Short Range +0 Semi-Auto +10 Half Action Aim, +10 Inspired, baseline of 80%. means the average to hit roll of 50 will get them 2 hits on Semi-Auto of again likely Overcharged for 1d10+5 Pen 2. Average damage means 7 per hit (14 on the average to hit roll), which likely leaves the guy in Crit Damage, but alive.

Granted even if the Lasgun got full auto you're talking 21 damage on average in that scenario, meaning most likely he's badly stunned/fatigued, burned, and still alive, but not in a condition to fight.



Granted, I get more use out of Reliable in my games. In part because the Subtlety Dings for acquiring extra gear. Or that you'd have to move down to a sidearm (Autogun to Stub Revolver) which has a distinct effect on you.

Might want to consider porting in the Multi-laser from Only War instead as well. Might be a good solution and it definitely is one of the better Full Auto Jackhammer weapons, HIGHLY undervalued compared to the Man Portable Lascannon (Seriously like 9 out of 10 battles the Multi-Laser ends up better). Could very well fit your niche of giving las users something that can really kick ass. And who would be using Military Lasguns? Ex-Guardsmen who might have taken up the heavy weapon?

[Surrealistik]

Here is the math I did when testing my assumptions:

BS 40 (reasonable assumption; this is an often maximized skill for good reason) + 10 Close Range + 10 Aim = base 60

Average damage for an Autopistol on Full-Auto with allowance for one level of Righteous Fury vs an enemy with 5 soak (3 TB, 2 Armour);

(((5.5+2)+(4.5+5.5)*.1 - 5)+((5.5+2)+(4.5+5.5)*.1 - 5)*2+((5.5+2)+(4.5+5.5)*.1 - 5)*3+((5.5+2)+(4.5+5.5)*.1 - 5)*4+((5.5+2)+(4.5+5.5)*.1 - 5)*5)/10 or 5.25

Average damage for an Overloaded Laspistol on Semi-Auto:

(((5.5+4)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-3)+((5.5+4)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-3)+((5.5+4)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-3)*2+((5.5+4)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-3)*2+((5.5+4)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-3)*2+((5.5+4)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-3)*2)/10 or 7.5

vs 1 armour: 6.75 vs 7.5

vs 0 armour: 8.25 vs 7.5

I divided by 10 to both account for outcomes where output is 0, and the fact that when damage increments, it does so with every ten points on a success. These values are comparable for the autogun vs lasgun. If you assume Inspiration, this gap narrows further.

So vs armoured targets, slightly better damage, but at the cost of being Unreliable and losing Suppression effectiveness. You also are unable to silence las weapons which is often a considerable liability (Silencers may as well be considered 'out of the box' given their availability). At point blank range, obviously Auto weapons get significantly better on average.

Personally I find Suppression so valuable that the slight damage increment vs a subset of targets isn't worth a loss of its effectiveness: weak small arms are for suppressing, sniper weapons, shotguns, flamers and firebombs are for killing (point blank range excepted).


Concerning Subtlety dings, doesn't that only apply when you're trying to get stuff at Scarce rarity or worse?

[ArcturusV]

By the rules, anything, regardless of Rarity gets subtlety dings, as far as I remember. Long as you are using Influence for it. Which has always been a good reason for me to try to up my "Thief" Skills honestly and steal things rather than Acquire them.

Silencers I don't see as that much of an advantage. I mean they finally said clearly and legitimately how sounds work for detecting shots, etc. Even with Silencers any shot is going to be heard out to 50m (For an Autopistol). Since the Silencer Upgrade says that it halves the range you can hear it, it means for example an Autogun that is Silenced (As Autoguns are specifically listed) can be heard clearly out to 500m. Which is the same range that a Lasgun can be heard at.

We can presume the same stats apply for the smaller Las Pistol (50m for a Silenced Autopistol and 50m for a Laspistol). Or comparable longarms like a Longlas vs a Sniper Rifle.

Just to put into perspective.

I have to say I don't usually see people max out BS unless they're going Snipers or "heavy gunner" Heavy Stubber style. Just there usually isn't much reason to. I mean if you're the average kid with a 31 BS of an average stat roll... you usually don't have any trouble hitting your target still since combat modifiers are so easy to stack. Things get schewed of course towards SP when you go for the "Expert" Marksmen. I mean baseline 40 is basically "The best humans out there" in terms of Marksmen. You're talking Military Special Forces (US Marines, British Special Air Service, Russian Spetnaz, etc) level sharpshooters to use the real world comparison. Well, at least based on the benchmarks for what a characteristic means as the RPGs have set them out.

Again, going to chalk it up to local group cultures. If someone isn't going to be "The Heavy Gunner" or "The Sniper" they usually dumpstat BS since it's so unimportant. So I'm more likely to see players with like, 26 BS than 40. And the 40s tend to be fairly invested Shooters and as such I didn't mind them being better at shooting an SP weapon over a Las.

[Surrealistik]

Just checked concerning the Subtlety penalty = to the acquisition penalty; this happens whether successful or not. So provided you have sufficient time, you can eventually get anything of Average rarity without affecting Subtlety. That gets you a grenade launcher, multiple autoguns/pistols, stun nades, frags, smokes, firebombs, a Poor quality handcannon, flamer and sniper rifle; not bad.


Concerning silencers I did miss that; saw it on the second pass to confirm the Subtlety loss rule. Man Silencers are kinda meh unless you're sniping far away. I suppose it's half decent on an Autopistol though, and it does increase the difficulty to hear by 2 steps, even if you're within earshot.


I've seen people dumpstat BS on occasion, but they tended to be nothing but Suppression spam and armed themselves accordingly; the games you run/play might go differently, but everyone in the group is usually involved in a combat so BS does tend not to be totally neglected, (excepting those specializing in say WS).

Either way though, my example assumes no Inspiration buff, and for people with crap BS the reduction in Suppression effectiveness matters even more, since that's usually one of their most effective actions in combat.


I will grant however that Full-Auto + Overload on the Lasgun is a bit much without some form of mitigation or cost; I'm thinking that while set to Overload, Full-Auto applies the Recharge rule to the weapon until the end of the next round, or have it auto-jam after completing the attack. This allows you to use an exceptionally powerful firing mode at a commensurate cost.

Assuming down the road we have an Autogun with Manstoppers at 50 BS + 10 Aim + 10 Inspiration (someone probably has it by this point) + 10 Short Range vs 3 TB and 2 Armour:

(((5.5+5)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-5)+((5.5+5)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-5)*2+((5.5+5)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-5)*3+((5.5+5)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-5)*4+((5.5+5)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-5)*5+((5.5+5)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-5)*6+((5.5+5)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-5)*7)/10 = 18.2

Lasgun on Overcharge firing Full-Auto:

(((5.5+4)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-5)+((5.5+4)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-5)*2+((5.5+4)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-5)*3+((5.5+4)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-5)*4+((5.5+4)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-5)*5+((5.5+4)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-5)*5+((5.5+4)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-5)*5)/10 = 13.75

Lasgun on Overload firing Full-Auto:

(((5.5+5)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-3)+((5.5+5)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-3)*2+((5.5+5)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-3)*3+((5.5+5)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-3)*4+((5.5+5)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-3)*5+((5.5+5)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-3)*5+((5.5+5)+(4.5+5.5)*.1-3)*5)/10 = 21.25

~3 damage better than an Autogun with Manstoppers. Of course your weapon then stops working for awhile but hey, fair enough for that rousing burst of spike damage without specialized ammo, right?

[Surrealistik]

I've added rules for overloading Las tech, and the synergizing talent Las Sapper.


Also the AP and cover properties, tactical shield and slug round items, and cover degradation rules.

[Gorthano]

Thanks for the feedback Arcturus.

Not being able to run Fire Selectors (which makes running out of ammo no longer a concern in practice)

Long dead thread, but I thought I'd mention that your concern about fire selectors was already fixed. In DH2e, they don't expand the amount of ammo one can load into a gun at one time. A gun with a 20 round magazine can still only carry 20 rounds (as opposed to 60 or whatever it was in prior editions).