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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Spawn of War: Fighter Redesign (WIP) (PEACH)



SpawnOfMorbo
2015-12-19, 09:50 PM
Updated Fighter Redesign

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BkBoMJqc

View this on Chrome, whenever I use anything else it gets weird.

For now I'm leaving it as a 10 Level class, eventually I may add in 10 more levels (porting over what is in the Old Stuff)

NOTES

Still working on how I want the Eldritch Knight to work.

So we have a primary reliance on the core class, but the subclasses still offer cool things. Also we are getting some throwback to the 3e and 4e fighter via the subclasses.


The Fighter

Insert some like cool thing about fighters here.



Level
Proficiency
Bonus
Fighting Styles
Known
Features


1
2
1
Fighting Styles, Second Wind


2
2
1
Remarkable Athlete


3
2
1
Martial Archetype


4
2
1
ASI, Know Your Enemy


5
3
1
Extra Attack


6
3
2
Martial Archetype Feature


7
3
2
Reactionary


8
3
2
ASI


9
4
2
Indomitable (1/SR)


10
4
2
Martial Archetype Feature


11
4
3
Weapon Focus


12
4
3
ASI


13
5
3
Indomitable (2/SR)


14
5
3
Martial Archetype Feature


15
5
3
Talented and Learned


16
5
4
ASI


17
6
4
Indomitable (3/SR)


18
6
4



19
6
4
ASI


20
6
4
Truly Indomitable



Class Features

Hit Points

Hit Dice: 1d10 per Fighter level
Hit Points at First Level: 10 + your Constitution Modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d10 (or 6) + your Constitution Modifier per Fighter level after 1st.


Proficiencies

Armor: All armor and shields
Weapons: All weapons
Tools: One artisan tool
Saving Throws: Strength and Constitution
Skills: Choose two skills from Animal Handling, Athletics, History, Insight, Intimidation, Perception, Persuasion, and Survival.


Fighting Style
Starting at first level you chose a Fighting Style that represents your primary way of dealing with combat. At higher levels you gain additional fighting styles as shown in the table above. You may use one fighting style in a given turn.


Solitary Weapon Style: When you attack with a single weapon you gain a +2 to the damage roll.
Twin Weapon Style: When you use dual wielding your offhand weapon damage may add your ability modifier to it.
Thrown Weapon Style: When you attack with a thrown weapon you gain a +1 to attack and +1 to damage.
Precision Weapon Style: When you attack with a ranged weapon you gain a +2 to the attack roll.


Second Wind
As the PHB Fighter Ability "Second Wind". Additionally, you may also use this feature as a reaction when you take damage from a source that you can see.

Remarkable Athlete
Whenever you must roll a Strength or Dexterity check, you may add the higher of your Strength or Dexterity modifier. This replaces the modifier that is being used.

Additionally you gain the following abilities.

Armor takes 1/4th the time to be equipped and unequipped.
Donning and doffing a shield is a bonus action.
You may change your weapon type as a bonus action. When you do this you may hit a creature with the hand guard of your rapier or the flat side of your sword. Some weapons may not allow this, ask your DM if your weapon can be used in such a way.


Extra Attack
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

Reactionary
You have advantage on opportunity attacks.

Know Your Enemy
As PHB Fighter Martial Archetype Battle Master ability, however can be used as an Action.

Indomitable
At 9th level, once per short rest, you may reroll a failed saving throw as a Constitution Saving Throw. At level 14 you may use this feature twice per short rest.

Weapon Focus
Starting at 11th level, your weapon attacks deal additional damage equal to your proficiency bonus.

Blind Fight
Starting at level 13, you do not take disadvantage on attack rolls when you can't see your target. Unseen attackers don't gain advantage on attack rolls against you.

Talented and Learned
Starting at level 15, you never take disadvantage on basic maneuvers such as grappling, shove, or climbing onto another creature.

​Placeholder

Truly Indomitable
Starting at level 20, you have advantage with all Constitution Checks and Constitution Saves.

Additionally if you roll a 10 or higher on a death save it is counted as a natural 20.

Martial Archetypes

Martial Archetypes will give you a feats and then two abilities that modify that feat. You will then gain a capstone


Charger
At 3rd level you gain the Charger Feat as a bonus feat.

Improved Charger
Starting at 6th level, you do not provoke OA whenever you use the Dash Action.

Greater Charge
Starting at 10th level, whenever you use the Bonus Action Attack granted by the Charger feat you may use the Attack Action.

Champion Body
Starting at 14th level, you gain proficiency in Dexterity Saves.




Sentinel
At 3rd level you gain the Sentinel Feat as a bonus feat.

Improved Sentinel
Starting at 6th level, all attacks granted by the Sentinel feat are considered Opportunity Attacks. Additionally, you may use Sentinel even if the target of an attack other than you has the Sentinel feat.

Greater Sentinel
Starting at 10th level, creatures provoke opportunity attacks for moving around you. If a creature stays within your reach but moves 5' without taking the disengage action, you may make an Opportunity Attack against them.

Veteran Mind
Starting at 14th level, you gain proficiency in Charisma Saves.



Magic Initiate
At 3rd level you gain the Magic Initiate Feat and Ritual Caster as a bonus feat. However you may cast your Magic Initiate 1st level spell once per short rest.

Special: You must select Wizard with these feats. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability score.

Improved Magic Initiate
Starting at 6th level, whenever you cast an Eldritch Knight cantrip or spell you may teleport up to 30' as a bonus action.

Additionally, you may forget your Magic Initiate spell and choose any 1st or 2nd level spell from the Wizard list. Your Magic Initiate spell counts as 2nd level.

Greater Magic Initiate
Starting at 10th level, whenever you cast an Eldritch Knight cantrip or spell you may make a weapon attack as a bonus action.

Additionally, you may forget your Magic Initiate spell and choose any 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spell from the Wizard list. Your Magic Initiate spell counts as 3rd level.

Eldritch Mind
Starting at 14th level, you gain proficiency in Intelligence Saves.



Healer
At 3rd level you gain the Healer feat as a bonus feat.

Improved Healer
Starting at 6th level, using the Healer feat is a bonus action. Additionally you may target a creature twice per short rest.

Greater Healer
Starting at 10th level, whenever you heal a creature with the Healer feat, you allow them to make a saving throw against an ongoing effect.

Healer's Wisdom
Starting at 14th level, you gain proficiency in Wisdom Saves.



Magic Initiate
At 3rd level you gain the Magic Initiate Feat and Ritual Caster as a bonus feat. However you may cast your Magic Initiate 1st level spell once per short rest.

Special: You must select Druid with these feats. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability score.

Improved Magic Initiate
Starting at 6th level, whenever you cast a Warden cantrip you cause roots to grab the target and you may pull the creature up to 10'.

Additionally, you may forget your Magic Initiate spell and choose any 1st or 2nd level spell from the Druid list. Your Magic Initiate spell counts as 2nd level.

Greater Magic Initiate
Starting at 10th level, whenever you cast a Warden cantrip or spell you may make a weapon attack as a bonus action.

Additionally, you may forget your Magic Initiate spell and choose any 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spell from the Druid list. Your Magic Initiate spell counts as 3rd level.

Font of Life
Starting at 14th level, you may roll saving throws for ongoing effects at the beginning of your turn instead of at the end of your turn.



Dungeon Delver
At 3rd level you gain Dungeon Delver as a bonus feat. Additionally you have proficiency in Thieves Tools if you don't already have proficiency.

Improved Dungeon Delver
Starting at 6th level, you have advantage on any ability check made to open, disarm, or reset a trap or door. Additionally, if you fail a check to open, disarm, or reset a trap or door you do not spring any traps that may be connected.

Greater Dungeon Delver
Starting at 10th level, whenever you search for, disarm, or reset a trap or door you may use a bonus action. Additionally you take minimum damage from traps.

Action Before Thought
Starting at 14th level, you gain proficiency in Dexterity Saves.

SwordChuck
2015-12-20, 02:13 AM
For War Magic, how about something like...


War Magic (Level 6): A number of times per short rest equal to your Intelligence modifier you may, after using the weapon attack action, cast a first level spell (that is normally an action to cast) as a bonus action.

Improved War Magic (Level 11): The highest spell level you may use with War Magic is increases to 2nd level.

Greater War Magic (17): The highest spell level you may use with War Magic is increases to 3rd level.

Though I think that the level 11 feature should be something else, I do like how simple the EK is.

Kane0
2016-01-06, 06:11 PM
I'll cover the lot, most of it looks pretty good.

HP & Profs: All good

Fighting Style: You may want to remove the column from the table, just put 'additional fighting style' in Features since you're only doing a couple of them (I'd recommend 3 as the magic number). May also want to specify melee weapons for 1 handed and 2 handed.
Are there supposed to be more defensive, mobility and tactical options available later?

Second Wind: Missing from descriptions, I'm assuming its the same. All good.

Remarkable Athlete: Theres a lot going on here, you could split some of these off into ribbons if you really want to keep them but the +1/2 prof to all Str & Dex checks is plenty solid enough for a standalone ability. Doesn't the ability usually round up though?

Student of War: You already get a proficiency at level 1, and if you multiclass theres a chance you don't have any existing proficiency to apply this to.

Know Thy Enemy: All good, having it as an action makes it handy in a combat now

Reactionary: Why not just allow a second reaction per turn? Would be unique and not totally OP by the time you get it. Also a callback to a previous ability in its name would be cool, such as Opportunist or Lightning Reflexes.

Indomitable: Per short rest makes it much more usable, and making it a con save is also good.

Critical Strike: Nice, though the 'no extra dice from other classes' bit is a bit wierd. Its that little bit of extra clutter and no other class ability is locked like that (cross casting I guess?), plus you get this at level 13 so I don't think smites or variant ranger superiority dice are going to be that much of a problem at this stage.

Survivor: Excellent. All fighters should have a little bit of Fast Healing, competes with Rage and Lay on Hands, though in concert with Second Wind may be a bit much.

Capstone: Can't think of anything cool presently.

Notes: Without action surge and a 3rd/4th attack per round damage is likely to suffer, and all the defensive abilities leads to tanks being prevalent. Reinstating some more attack features may be necessary. Swapping out the level 10 ASI with a 3rd attack would be good.

Subclasses
Champion:
ASIs: No problem with these, though that extra ASI at 10 on the base conflicts with this a little.
Improved Critical: Adding a 10% crit chance is a big step. Given all the other champion abilities are part of core now, you won't need to improve it more than it was before. How about crits do 2x damage at 6 and 3x damage at 17? Changes the existing crit mechanic but makes things simple by saying "Roll damage plus extras you get on crits (like from being a Half Orc), then double/triple the result". The overall increase in power is largely down to your static modifiers, but then again I took out -5/+10 in my games so your results may vary.

Battlemaster
Improved Style: Why not just grant the improved styles to the fighting styles you picked?
Sweeping attack seems a bit weak, would a prone effect work here? Might take away from the shield master feat.
Is two weapon specifically against melee weapons?
Battle Tested Athlete: Seems solid, bonus action shoves or grapples
Greater Style: For two weapon you could just assume max roll, range weapon benefit seems a bit out of place. Surely the coordinated theme can be its own fighting style?
Adaptive Style: You could replace this with advantage on your battle tested athlete choice?

Eldritch Knight
Casting: A common rule I've seen is Evocation + Abjuration + 1 school of your choice. Might fit here as well.
Weapon Bond: The inclusion of weapon as Focus frees up a hand, very nice.
War Magic: With the removal of action surge this makes a solid replacement as a nova ability. You may want to change the wording to "A cantrip or 1st level spell"
Magical Secrets: Very cool, and doesn't step on the bards toes due to his limited casting and delayed progression
Greater War Magic: Like War Magic, may want to change wording to "A cantrip or spell". No point in restricting it to only 3rd level spells or EK only spells at level 17.

Overall, nice work! The subclasses still pack quite a bit of power in, so some playtesting would be in order to fully gauge things, especially the loss of extra attacks and action surge.

SpawnOfMorbo
2016-01-07, 09:56 AM
I'll cover the lot, most of it looks pretty good.

HP & Profs: All good

Fighting Style: You may want to remove the column from the table, just put 'additional fighting style' in Features since you're only doing a couple of them (I'd recommend 3 as the magic number). May also want to specify melee weapons for 1 handed and 2 handed.
Are there supposed to be more defensive, mobility and tactical options available later?

Second Wind: Missing from descriptions, I'm assuming its the same. All good.

Remarkable Athlete: Theres a lot going on here, you could split some of these off into ribbons if you really want to keep them but the +1/2 prof to all Str & Dex checks is plenty solid enough for a standalone ability. Doesn't the ability usually round up though?

Student of War: You already get a proficiency at level 1, and if you multiclass theres a chance you don't have any existing proficiency to apply this to.

Know Thy Enemy: All good, having it as an action makes it handy in a combat now

Reactionary: Why not just allow a second reaction per turn? Would be unique and not totally OP by the time you get it. Also a callback to a previous ability in its name would be cool, such as Opportunist or Lightning Reflexes.

Indomitable: Per short rest makes it much more usable, and making it a con save is also good.

Critical Strike: Nice, though the 'no extra dice from other classes' bit is a bit wierd. Its that little bit of extra clutter and no other class ability is locked like that (cross casting I guess?), plus you get this at level 13 so I don't think smites or variant ranger superiority dice are going to be that much of a problem at this stage.

Survivor: Excellent. All fighters should have a little bit of Fast Healing, competes with Rage and Lay on Hands, though in concert with Second Wind may be a bit much.

Capstone: Can't think of anything cool presently.

Notes: Without action surge and a 3rd/4th attack per round damage is likely to suffer, and all the defensive abilities leads to tanks being prevalent. Reinstating some more attack features may be necessary. Swapping out the level 10 ASI with a 3rd attack would be good.

Subclasses
Champion:
ASIs: No problem with these, though that extra ASI at 10 on the base conflicts with this a little.
Improved Critical: Adding a 10% crit chance is a big step. Given all the other champion abilities are part of core now, you won't need to improve it more than it was before. How about crits do 2x damage at 6 and 3x damage at 17? Changes the existing crit mechanic but makes things simple by saying "Roll damage plus extras you get on crits (like from being a Half Orc), then double/triple the result". The overall increase in power is largely down to your static modifiers, but then again I took out -5/+10 in my games so your results may vary.

Battlemaster
Improved Style: Why not just grant the improved styles to the fighting styles you picked?
Sweeping attack seems a bit weak, would a prone effect work here? Might take away from the shield master feat.
Is two weapon specifically against melee weapons?
Battle Tested Athlete: Seems solid, bonus action shoves or grapples
Greater Style: For two weapon you could just assume max roll, range weapon benefit seems a bit out of place. Surely the coordinated theme can be its own fighting style?
Adaptive Style: You could replace this with advantage on your battle tested athlete choice?

Eldritch Knight
Casting: A common rule I've seen is Evocation + Abjuration + 1 school of your choice. Might fit here as well.
Weapon Bond: The inclusion of weapon as Focus frees up a hand, very nice.
War Magic: With the removal of action surge this makes a solid replacement as a nova ability. You may want to change the wording to "A cantrip or 1st level spell"
Magical Secrets: Very cool, and doesn't step on the bards toes due to his limited casting and delayed progression
Greater War Magic: Like War Magic, may want to change wording to "A cantrip or spell". No point in restricting it to only 3rd level spells or EK only spells at level 17.

Overall, nice work! The subclasses still pack quite a bit of power in, so some playtesting would be in order to fully gauge things, especially the loss of extra attacks and action surge.

Holy crap that's a lot, wow, thank you :)

Fighting Style: I'm not sure I really want to do that. This leaves an opening for DMs that don't like archery style (+2 is to hit is huge) to allow the fighter to use one weapon in its place. Or a fighter that is using thrown weapons can instead use one weapon of the DM doesn't like thrown weapon. This way IF a DM bans one or both of the +hit, the Fighter isn't left empty handed.

Fighting Styles: I may remove the column, but I want to keep the styles known at 4. I see no reason that a high level fighter can't use all the basics perfectly and switch between them. A wizard can know (in their spell book) every school of spells and can have every spell written down and clerics "know" all their spells... So I don't think it should/would be out of the realm of possibilities that a fighter know 4 basic styles. You can't ever stack fighting styles so it stops a one weapon + archery combo.

Second Wind: Yeah, I hate the core fighter feature of second wind. The only change I'm thinking of making to it would be to allow it to be used as a reaction to taking damage. At least then it will be used in combat from time to time. The current fighter's second wind tends to be used at the beginning of a short rest to act as an additional hit die. I totally forgot to type it down though haha. I'll add it in.

Remarkable Athlete's bullet points are mostly ribbons. Just things that make a fighter more... Fighterish. Doning and doffing armor quicker is super niche but should be expected from a dude who lives in armor. Donning and Doffing a shield as a bonus action is not as niche but can be quite niche and next to worthless for some fighters, but for a guy or gal who lives in armor and shields it should be expected they can do this quicker. Changing damage types is another niche, but not as niche as the others, thing that should be expected of a guy or gal who lives by their weapons. This can encourage improvisation and doesn't need specific DM consent each time (by allowing this class the DM should expect this use). Using a bow to do slashing damage, by grazing your oponent's face, instead of piercing them leads to cool. The main meat is the expertise like ability but I think the ribbons add a nice (Pof of niche) touch.

I'm really not sure if I want it to round up or round down. I think because it is so broad an ability on a class I'll keep it as rounding down. I was thinking of adding Con to the mix to show that a fighter is the best at not failing death saving throws.

Student of War: This applies to one artisan tool of your choice, I'm not seeing how you wouldn't have a proficiency to apply this to. This is much like the Rogue's thieves tools where you can just pick an artisan tool. Niche but as with most tools it's what you push to do with them that counts (ice seen rogues with expertise thieves tools never touch a lock or trap cause he/we kept staying away from situations like that).

Know Thy Enemy: I have no clue why this was ever a minute. Really takes away from the quick staring people down trope.

Reactionary: From what I hear, you should either get one or unlimited reactions (to make OA). This cuts down on book keeping and thus stays simple. Plus, there is already an ability in the MM called reactionary, marilith monsters I think have it. I think it is a CR 6 creature, though I'm away from books at the moment, so the ability can't be all that powerful (sub 10 CR creatures I've found to be quite... Weak...). I'm going to change the wording of the feature as I see my phone changed "modify" to "modifier" when I was editing the post. I hate that the fighter can't defend their allies against swarms, with this feature those swarms of low CR creatures can't just run past the fighter after he or she makes their first reaction.

Indomitable actually makes the fighter indomitable. This was actually one of the first house rules I ran across when 5e first came out.

Critical Strike: Good point on MC not being a big issue. My original thought on it was that shows that the fighter relies on itself and that like the caster MC rules (wiz 1/clr 19 learns spells as a first level wizard and a 19th level cleric) shows that there is a distinction between being a Paladin, Rogue, and Fighter. I think it needs to be worded better but if there isn't a limiter I'm sure a higher level MC will be deemed a bit broken either with existing material or future material.

By this level Second Wind is pretty much 14% of the fighter's max HP. I don't think this will make Survivor OP.... Though... And this may be a crazy thought... How about Second Wind becoming Survivor? At low levels it is 1d10+Fighter level. At higher levels it is fast healing? This makes a sense of organic growth within the fighter.

Capstone: I have a few ideas but I'm not sure which way I want to go.

DPR Note: I would like the fighter to be comparable to the rogue for damage. The rogue will have maneuvers/sneaking/skills/damage and the fighter will have maneuvers/ranking/skill/damage. I'm hoping the primary damage will come from the choice of Martial Archetype.

====

Champion: I want the fighter to be the king/queen of ASK. I want the Champion to be the God-King/God-Queen of ASI. I want champions to have their cake and eat it too.

The critical hit idea... I think doing it like the half orc (roll more dice) steps on the barbarian's toes a bit. I feel like that should be their thing.

-5/+10 doesn't exist in my games and I will add a note to not allow it with this class (and when I redesign the Barbarian).

Due to only getting two attacks I think increasing the crit range more shouldn't be as bad as if you did have 3 or 4 attacks.

=====

Battlemaster

I think my intention was to allow for specialization but I think being more flexible (as you learn more basic styles you gain more moderate styles) would work well. Especially since you can only ever use one style at a time.

I think sweeping attack can prone. I want the damage to come from the Martial archetypes and prone is a good way to do this. With this ability though, it will be a bonus action to allow your weapon attack to prone a target and not be it's own attack. Shield master would have its place in the game but wouldn't stack with this ability.

How about

"One Weapon
As a bonus action you may perform a sweeping attack, any targets hit by your weapon attacks fall prone. Any targets gain a Strength or Dexterity check to negate the prone."

Two weapon applies to any attack. This will include things like firebolt, axe attacks, or anything like that. It is a bit weaker version of uncanny dodge. However I do need to make sure it can only be used 1/round as the core fighter gains reactionary. Oh, this makes the twf feat a bit better as you can use a d8 weapon for this ability instead of just a shield.

Adaptive Style: Yeah, maneuver advantage would be a better option!

===

Eldritch Knight

Casting: I've seen that homebrewed a lot but I would like to keep a specific spell list for the EK instead of allowing that much flexibility. This allows for the spell schools to be "evocation = damage" "divination/abjuration = defensive/utility" and "transmutation = offensive/utility" (for the most part, some exceptions of course). I have plans for rogue and barbarian versions of this subclass (arcane trickster and geomancer) that will mirror this casting style but give different schools, with some overlap, to each one.

War Magic and Greater War Magic will have the wording reworked and have have the restriction removed.

====


Much appreciated :)

I'm on my phone right now so I can't go into a lot of detail but I'll be making changes soon.

====

Made a strong and fluffy capstone. Not sure if it is too weak still or too powerful but I've always liked how the good/bad guy or gal looks dead but somehow survives.

Amnoriath
2016-01-08, 11:37 AM
1. While it is still capable in general I have to say it is a worse Fighter. While you did give them a few more numbers to play with for stats and better defenses your star offensive ability is not only at level 7 it is purely melee-centered. A Fighter should be able to be designed both ways do proportional well yours doesn't.
2. Your Critical Strike not only precludes a weapon style it is not worth its limit. An attack is better than it unless you can stack in some Sneak Attack which could be possible.
3. While you did up the amount of Fighting Styles one can have not only have you taken away some of the more interesting ones for just raw numbers but you only got 4. Since you cap at 4 it means a full build will have the same ones.
Overall it is definitely a better tank but it is just a melee tank now though as such it seems like a sub-class you stretched out over 20 levels.

Amnoriath
2016-01-08, 11:51 AM
1. Your Champion is rather boring relying on the base more than any of the others plus 8 ASI's become excessive since they cap at 20. The repeating of abilities doesn't help.
2. Your Battlemaster is quite decent actually giving back what you took away in the Fighting Styles. However since you only have 4 again a Battlemaster can have access to all of them. The other two features are quite solid though. The only other thing that bothers me is its lack of utility.
3. Your Eldritch Knight falls into the same trap the original did. Your limitation of a once per short rest quicken is enough needing only the Eldritch Knight spell to qualify it. Like the original the capstone except at least the original could do it at will and had a means to inflict disadvantage on enemies with a more MAD build.

SpawnOfMorbo
2016-01-08, 12:15 PM
1. Your Champion is rather boring relying on the base more than any of the others plus 8 ASI's become excessive since they cap at 20. The repeating of abilities doesn't help.
2. Your Battlemaster is quite decent actually giving back what you took away in the Fighting Styles. However since you only have 4 again a Battlemaster can have access to all of them. The other two features are quite solid though. The only other thing that bothers is its lack of utility.
3. Your Eldritch Knight falls into the same trap the original did. Your limitation of a once per short rest quicken is enough needing only the Eldritch Knigh spell to qualify it. Like the original the capstone except at least the original could do it at will and had a means to inflict disadvantage on enemies with a more MAD build.

Champions is pretty much the same as before except it has more ASI to work with which increases saves, skills, and checks. Also, they do better than average with ability contests. The champion supplements the core features and not the other way around. Having higher base ability scores is what makes the champion a champion, it allows the core ability scores to be changed to feats, without having the problem of losing out on ASI. Also, this way it allows fighter's to pick up skills by backgrounds that they mechanically can't keep up with at first to make serviceable (Int and Cha skills specifically) and boost those ability scores. It makes the fighter more flexible for what It is currently. The champion is the 3e fighter, it's going to be boring to some but at least now It can be flexible, especially in combo with core features.

I'm not sure why having all 4 eventually is a problem. This will allow for a BM to switch up their style on the fly. Yeah a battlemaster knows all the maneuvers because they are a master at battle and not a scrub.

Eldritch Knight is always going to be a bit mad, however they don't really need Intelligence all that much. With the additional schools they also have a lot more options than before. They may not do the damage of a Paladin bit they should have way more utility (divination and transmutation spells).

Edit

In core you can look at the subclasses in a vacuum, in this you can't as they support the base class and not the other way around.

They aren't finished of course, but I can't help but think you are looking at the subclasses without taking into account the class itself.

Amnoriath
2016-01-08, 12:26 PM
Champions is pretty much the same as before except it has more ASI to work with which increases saves, skills, and checks. Also, they do better than average with ability contests. The champion supplements the core features and not the other way around. Having higher base ability scores is what makes the champion a champion, it allows the core ability scores to be changed to feats, without having the problem of losing out on ASI. Also, this way it allows fighter's to pick up skills by backgrounds that they mechanically can't keep up with at first to make serviceable (Int and Cha skills specifically) and boost those ability scores. It makes the fighter more flexible for what It is currently. The champion is the 3e fighter, it's going to be boring to some but at least now It can be flexible, especially in combo with core features.

I'm not sure why having all 4 eventually is a problem. This will allow for a BM to switch up their style on the fly. Yeah a battlemaster knows all the maneuvers because they are a master at battle and not a scrub.

Eldritch Knight is always going to be a bit mad, however they don't really need Intelligence all that much. With the additional schools they also have a lot more options than before. They may not do the damage of a Paladin bit they should have way more utility (divination and transmutation spells).

Edit

In core you can look at the subclasses in a vacuum, in this you can't as they support the base class and not the other way around.

They aren't finished of course, but I can't help but think you are looking at the subclasses without taking into account the class itself.
1. By small steps that won't give them any kind of expertise or strategy. They could choose a feat but they could chose them in the first place. Additionally the sub-class itself diminishes Critical Strike.
2. Because it means they will ultimately have the same things. If you are going to allow custom options you need to add more than what they can get to ensure diversity as well as specialization. Especially since you took a Kensei-like approach to it.
3. But they have less ASI's now and if you actually look at the base in the text of the spells section you can choose a few spells with no restrictions. Ultimately you made it worse because you took away Eldritch Strike as well as relying on a worse scaling ability.
4. Actually I did and made separate points for the class itself before the one you replied against. Additionally some of my points were in direct reflection of the class. So don't say that I haven't taken the class into account.

SpawnOfMorbo
2016-01-08, 02:15 PM
1. By small steps that won't give them any kind of expertise or strategy. They could choose a feat but they could chose them in the first place. Additionally the sub-class itself diminishes Critical Strike.
2. Because it means they will ultimately have the same things. If you are going to allow custom options you need to add more than what they can get to ensure diversity as well as specialization. Especially since you took a Kensei-like approach to it.
3. But they have less ASI's now and if you actually look at the base in the text of the spells section you can choose a few spells with no restrictions. Ultimately you made it worse because you took away Eldritch Strike as well as relying on a worse scaling ability.
4. Actually I did and made separate points for the class itself before the one you replied against. Additionally some of my points were in direct reflection of the class. So don't say that I haven't taken the class into account.

1:Before they had to choose between ASI OR feat, With the champion they get to have their cake and eat it too. They don't have to sacrifice ASIs as much as any other class as they gain more.

Though I did miss the ASI at level 14, small oversight due to editing most of this via phone.

2: Not a problem at all. Having the same things doesn't mean that every has to use the same options. That's like saying cleric spellcasting is terrible because each class knows all their spells and can take from the same list... Player choice and preference comes into play.

3: Again, EKs don't need Int and you need to balance the subclass around this fact. With this you can actually set up the EK to be Int based as you have the spell slots to support that sort of play where before you did not.

Also, ASI at level 14 means you get the same number of ASIa as a core Fighter.

4: If I saw that post I would have replied to it, you double posted and I missed it. There is a "edit" button that stops this sort of thing from happening.

weaseldust
2016-01-08, 03:06 PM
I don't think you have added enough at high levels to make up for the loss of Action Surge and the third attack at level 11.

For instance, Critical Strike (which I like) is inferior to just making another attack (unless you multiclass with Rogue or Paladin, it which case it gets nastier). So a level 11 PHB Fighter can do better every turn than a SoW Fighter using a once/SR ability.

Greater Champion Strike is likewise inferior to just making another attack (this and the original Champion Strike are not really very impressive abilities at all - e.g. 3 extra damage per SR when you first get Champion Strike).

I also don't really see the growth after level 8, and especially after level 11, that you say you are aiming for. The only ability which really adds to the Fighter's versatility, or makes them seem more epic than a level 8 Fighter, is the capstone.

SpawnOfMorbo
2016-01-08, 08:11 PM
I don't think you have added enough at high levels to make up for the loss of Action Surge and the third attack at level 11.

For instance, Critical Strike (which I like) is inferior to just making another attack (unless you multiclass with Rogue or Paladin, it which case it gets nastier). So a level 11 PHB Fighter can do better every turn than a SoW Fighter using a once/SR ability.

Greater Champion Strike is likewise inferior to just making another attack (this and the original Champion Strike are not really very impressive abilities at all - e.g. 3 extra damage per SR when you first get Champion Strike).

I also don't really see the growth after level 8, and especially after level 11, that you say you are aiming for. The only ability which really adds to the Fighter's versatility, or makes them seem more epic than a level 8 Fighter, is the capstone.

First, nothing will ever be as good as action surge because it is down right the most broken ability in 5e. Sad that the fighter can't do much with it without multiclassing out of the Fighter.

I absolutely hate Action Surge. Of it was set up more like Cunning Action or Quicken Spell that would be one thing, but to leave it so open ended and ripe for abuse via multiclassing is pathetic and turns the Fighter into a dip class.

(note: the previous statement has nothing really to do with your comment, just, thought I would get that out of the way.)

I don't want this fighter to keep up with the phb fighter in terms of DPS because the core fighter does too much damage and makes it hard to balance with other classes. Every time you make something for the Barbarian or rogue I whomever else you have to take I to account "but the Fighter does more damage".

A little bit over the Hunter Ranger is where I wouldn't mind getting to.

I would like the fighter to fall behind in terms of direct damage. That should be the barbarian's main thing.

So for now I'm fine with critical strike, though I was thinking of giving the Fighter a way refresh their short rest abilities 1/long rest as a level 20 capstone before just giving them a "mostly get out of death" free card.

Now that I think about it... The Warlock gains a bonus to weapon damage equal to their Cha around level 11. This may be stepping on their toes a bit but it seems like now that the fighter has less attacks and no action surge (much like the warlock) just giving them a bonus to their damage would be fine. I think just giving prof mod to weapon attacks at level 11 would work (+4 to +6 from level 11 to level 20).

Growth

Indomitable (9) (actually works as an ability)

Critical Strike (13): Anyone can critical, yes, but you get to choose to critical.

Survivor (15), the Fighter starts with second wind and then eventually gains fast healing. This is a core feature instead of a subclass option.

Truly Adomitable (20): This might change but I want it to be epic, much like the druid, cleric, and other awesome capstone.

Also each subclass shows growth. The original battle master didn't grow in terms of abilities while this one gains improved and greater styles.

The champion... I'm not to worried about its growth since it is geared more toward people who don't care about growth. It will have it but it needs it less than others.

Eldritch Knight gains new spells and can use a bonus action to cast a cantrip or spell (181st level and then later 3rd).

I'm not sure how much more growth you can show... (without giving spells to the base class)

===
Edited

Reactionary should also boost the DPR of this class.

I'm not too worried about the EK not having a class feature that grants "magic attacks" as if the player wants to overcome non-magical resistance/immunity then they can take the Magic Weapon spell and go to town with a magic weapon that gives a bonus to attacks too.

Amnoriath
2016-01-09, 08:40 AM
1:Before they had to choose between ASI OR feat, With the champion they get to have their cake and eat it too. They don't have to sacrifice ASIs as much as any other class as they gain more.

Though I did miss the ASI at level 14, small oversight due to editing most of this via phone.

2: Not a problem at all. Having the same things doesn't mean that every has to use the same options. That's like saying cleric spellcasting is terrible because each class knows all their spells and can take from the same list... Player choice and preference comes into play.

3: Again, EKs don't need Int and you need to balance the subclass around this fact. With this you can actually set up the EK to be Int based as you have the spell slots to support that sort of play where before you did not.

Also, ASI at level 14 means you get the same number of ASIa as a core Fighter.

4: If I saw that post I would have replied to it, you double posted and I missed it. There is a "edit" button that stops this sort of thing from happening.
1. You are treating it as if everyone else only has one. Your typical stat array can easily allow to take one or two feats without trouble while maxing your primary with only 5. You have 7 already as a base. Adding more won't max your secondary nor tertiary stats and won't even come close to say you are good with those associated checks. This is excess and allowing your Champion to be defined by what you already gain in abundance is not only boring but lazy as you are not taking any time to try to build a thorough concept of what it is. In short you are giving it what it doesn't need when it really needs something else.
2. A false dichotomy, first off I didn't say it was terrible. Additionally the Cleric list is still far greater than the amount of spells they can have prepared for the day. So diversity is created through the choices of spells they make at the beginning of the day. I also said because you took a Kensei-like approach your lack of diversity is antithetical to the theme you are going for.
3. Yes they do. I am well aware of 5e spell-casting not needing a minimum mental stat to cast but you forgot your spell save DC and your spell attack modifier. The reason why the original could get away with a lower Intelligence is because of Eldritch Strike. You getting rid of it puts it at a higher necessity because save DC's are not very forgiving for the user.
4."1. While it is still capable in general I have to say it is a worse Fighter. While you did give them a few more numbers to play with for stats and better defenses your star offensive ability is not only at level 7 it is purely melee-centered. A Fighter should be able to be designed both ways do proportional well yours doesn't.
2. Your Critical Strike not only precludes a weapon style it is not worth its limit. An attack is better than it unless you can stack in some Sneak Attack which could be possible.
3. While you did up the amount of Fighting Styles one can have not only have you taken away some of the more interesting ones for just raw numbers but you only got 4. Since you cap at 4 it means a full build will have the same ones.
Overall it is definitely a better tank but it is just a melee tank now though as such it seems like a sub-class you stretched out over 20 levels."
"1. Your Champion is rather boring relying on the base more than any of the others plus 8 ASI's become excessive since they cap at 20. The repeating of abilities doesn't help.
2. Your Battlemaster is quite decent actually giving back what you took away in the Fighting Styles. However since you only have 4 again a Battlemaster can have access to all of them. The other two features are quite solid though. The only other thing that bothers me is its lack of utility.
3. Your Eldritch Knight falls into the same trap the original did. Your limitation of a once per short rest quicken is enough needing only the Eldritch Knight spell to qualify it. Like the original the capstone except at least the original could do it at will and had a means to inflict disadvantage on enemies with a more MAD build."
These are not the same. Also please stop patronizing me especially when you are mistaken in the first place.

weaseldust
2016-01-09, 10:31 AM
Now that I think about it... The Warlock gains a bonus to weapon damage equal to their Cha around level 11. This may be stepping on their toes a bit but it seems like now that the fighter has less attacks and no action surge (much like the warlock) just giving them a bonus to their damage would be fine. I think just giving prof mod to weapon attacks at level 11 would work (+4 to +6 from level 11 to level 20).

That sounds fine. There needs to be some big increase at lv. 11 to keep ahead of cantrip damage.


Indomitable (9) (actually works as an ability)

Critical Strike (13): Anyone can critical, yes, but you get to choose to critical.

Survivor (15), the Fighter starts with second wind and then eventually gains fast healing. This is a core feature instead of a subclass option.

Truly Adomitable (20): This might change but I want it to be epic, much like the druid, cleric, and other awesome capstone.

I assumed you wanted more growth than the PHB Champion. The only new abilities for the Champion are Critical Strike (which for a Fighter adds a measly one damage die) and the capstone.

However, if you don't care so much about growth for the Champion, your approach makes more sense. I agree that the other two subclasses grow somewhat, though not much more than the PHB versions.


The original battle master didn't grow in terms of abilities while this one gains improved and greater styles.

This is sort of true, but any greater fighting style you get after level 11 is one you could have had at level 11. Plus, only the archery one really adds a new ability - the others just slightly improve abilities you could have had at level 3. I.e., there isn't much more growth (in the sense of novelty and increased epicness) than for the PHB Battlemaster.


Since I have sort of ragged on Critical Strike a bit, I'd suggest that it works for misses as well as hits, i.e. it gives you an auto-hit. That makes the ability suddenly much more striking.

SpawnOfMorbo
2016-01-09, 12:13 PM
Since I have sort of ragged on Critical Strike a bit, I'd suggest that it works for misses as well as hits, i.e. it gives you an auto-hit. That makes the ability suddenly much more striking.
Edited by me...

I'm a bit busy but I just wanted to say... I see what you did there and I approve.

I hope you put on your sunglasses as you typed that.

CrusaderJoe
2016-01-17, 03:16 PM
Hi!

I'm jumping into a game that allows homebrew and I want to try out your base class + champion. In not a huge fan of the core fighter but this looks like it just might work as a great "simple fighter".

Just a couple things, why not add in advantage in OA at a higher level to show growth and is "cowboy" the name you are going to keep for one of the Mind of Battle skills? Seems really out of place for D&D.

SpawnOfMorbo
2016-01-17, 03:33 PM
Hi!

I'm jumping into a game that allows homebrew and I want to try out your base class + champion. In not a huge fan of the core fighter but this looks like it just might work as a great "simple fighter".

Just a couple things, why not add in advantage in OA at a higher level to show growth and is "cowboy" the name you are going to keep for one of the Mind of Battle skills? Seems really out of place for D&D.

Awesome, let me know how it goes :smallredface:

Advantage on OA might be a bit much or not really needed, the Fighter is already pretty accurate and will have plenty of ASI to go around (especially champions).

I find it funny that you made the Rodeo Master build but are asking about my cowboy name :smalltongue:, I figured if DMs will allow homebrew then they will allow refluffing of said homebrew. Could be called "Wrangler".

Amnoriath
2016-01-17, 07:39 PM
Well to put it simply it is only a melee fighter. I have said this before.

CrusaderJoe
2016-01-17, 07:58 PM
Well to put it simply it is only a melee fighter. I have said this before.

And? I don't see the problem here?

Fighters are primarily melee, that's fine. Rogues and Rangers have the really good ranged options and lack on the melee side of things (or should compared to the fighter).

Besides nothing is stopping me from taking sharpshooter, lurker, and boosting Dex.

I won't but I could.

I'm actually thinking of playing a Twf battleaxe/throwing axe type character. More feats and ASI will be great for this as I don't think feat taxes (TWF) will hurt as much.

My idea...

TWF feat + Tavern brawler + Twin Weapon Battleaxes that I can then throw w/proficiency and a +1 to attacks/damage (though when I dual throw I won't get my offhand damage).

Plus with solitary style (once I learn it) and remarkable athlete I can switch to sword and board in battle with only a bonus action. Nice.

SpawnOfMorbo
2016-01-17, 08:43 PM
And? I don't see the problem here?

Fighters are primarily melee, that's fine. Rogues and Rangers have the really good ranged options and lack on the melee side of things (or should compared to the fighter).

Besides nothing is stopping me from taking sharpshooter, lurker, and boosting Dex.

I won't but I could.

I'm actually thinking of playing a Twf battleaxe/throwing axe type character. More feats and ASI will be great for this as I don't think feat taxes (TWF) will hurt as much.

My idea...

TWF feat + Tavern brawler + Twin Weapon Battleaxes that I can then throw w/proficiency and a +1 to attacks/damage (though when I dual throw I won't get my offhand damage).

Plus with solitary style (once I learn it) and remarkable athlete I can switch to sword and board in battle with only a bonus action. Nice.

The 4e Fighter is what I had in mind, yeah you could do a bit of range with it, but the primary idea of the Fighter was a melee weapon/maneuver/defender type character.

I felt as if that gave the Fighter a bit more of an identity.

Amnoriath
2016-01-17, 10:44 PM
And? I don't see the problem here?

Fighters are primarily melee, that's fine. Rogues and Rangers have the really good ranged options and lack on the melee side of things (or should compared to the fighter).

Besides nothing is stopping me from taking sharpshooter, lurker, and boosting Dex.

I won't but I could.

I'm actually thinking of playing a Twf battleaxe/throwing axe type character. More feats and ASI will be great for this as I don't think feat taxes (TWF) will hurt as much.

My idea...

TWF feat + Tavern brawler + Twin Weapon Battleaxes that I can then throw w/proficiency and a +1 to attacks/damage (though when I dual throw I won't get my offhand damage).

Plus with solitary style (once I learn it) and remarkable athlete I can switch to sword and board in battle with only a bonus action. Nice.

And it means that as a melee tank you have far less material to work with both in creating a whole character and making sub-classes than you do in comparison to the other melee tanks on top of the optimization discrepancy between ranged and melee.

Amnoriath
2016-01-17, 10:51 PM
The 4e Fighter is what I had in mind, yeah you could do a bit of range with it, but the primary idea of the Fighter was a melee weapon/maneuver/defender type character.

I felt as if that gave the Fighter a bit more of an identity.

Both the Barbarian and Paladin do a better job. Yes, you are fairly rounded in staying alive and well but you have no special means or additional means to draw the focus on you which is one of the lynch pins in being a good defender. You got rid of the old Fighting Styles which gave one as an option by comparison any Barbarian at least has one passive method and up to 3. A Paladin not only has a couple of spells but its damage capability and auras make it more of a threat. I am not well-versed in 4e but I know what you are talking about and you aren't anywhere close by comparison in your base class.

CrusaderJoe
2016-01-18, 12:43 AM
Both the Barbarian and Paladin do a better job. Yes, you are fairly rounded in staying alive and well but you have no special means or additional means to draw the focus on you which is one of the lynch pins in being a good defender. You got rid of the old Fighting Styles which gave one as an option by comparison any Barbarian at least has one passive method and up to 3. A Paladin not only has a couple of spells but its damage capability and auras make it more of a threat. I am not well-versed in 4e but I know what you are talking about and you aren't anywhere close by comparison in your base class.

I don't think this fighter is a defender, this fighter is a striker/support type. You seem to be able to build it to fit your group more so than the core fighter.

From the fluff and the mechanics of the class. I think you are looking at this class and thinking it is trying to emulate the 4e fighter exactly or you are trying to compare it to something it isn't. The OP basically says that the Fighter is more of a Jack of all trades that can be built to support the infiltrators or the heavy assault teams.

So far from what I see, I can take the champion and make it a good combatant that can travel with the rogue or barbarian at the same time and doesn't need to retrain or whatever. It also looks like the battlemaster will be able to rely on mental stats for more than just perception or helping others with skill checks.

Like, it can defend (reactionary) but it isn't a defender. Much like how in 4e you had classes that blurred the lines of roles, I see this fighter more along that than a class that has one specific role. The fighter needs to help with different avenues of combat.

Kinda like the Warlock in 4e, it was a striker but not the highest damage, it did some controlling also.

I would say that this fighter is a regulator. It is able to regulate the battle and help where needed.

Amnoriath
2016-01-18, 03:46 PM
I don't think this fighter is a defender, this fighter is a striker/support type. You seem to be able to build it to fit your group more so than the core fighter.

From the fluff and the mechanics of the class. I think you are looking at this class and thinking it is trying to emulate the 4e fighter exactly or you are trying to compare it to something it isn't. The OP basically says that the Fighter is more of a Jack of all trades that can be built to support the infiltrators or the heavy assault teams.

So far from what I see, I can take the champion and make it a good combatant that can travel with the rogue or barbarian at the same time and doesn't need to retrain or whatever. It also looks like the battlemaster will be able to rely on mental stats for more than just perception or helping others with skill checks.

Like, it can defend (reactionary) but it isn't a defender. Much like how in 4e you had classes that blurred the lines of roles, I see this fighter more along that than a class that has one specific role. The fighter needs to help with different avenues of combat.

Kinda like the Warlock in 4e, it was a striker but not the highest damage, it did some controlling also.

I would say that this fighter is a regulator. It is able to regulate the battle and help where needed.
Did you look at what I was quoting? He said he wanted it to be a Defender like the 4e. He has no base mechanic to draw the hits to him nor even any kind of special ability or additional action economy to use the baste strength checks more. You call it a support or regulator? A Paladin is far better support and control than this in every respect. A striker? Sort of, but melee strikers need some skirmishing capability or more action economy in which a Barbarian can get. Also if he wanted a striker he would have at least kept the Extra Attacks. It is clear he wants something else, but it is questionable whether it really needs to be a base class.

SpawnOfMorbo
2016-01-18, 07:08 PM
Did you look at what I was quoting? He said he wanted it to be a Defender like the 4e. He has no base mechanic to draw the hits to him nor even any kind of special ability or additional action economy to use the baste strength checks more. You call it a support or regulator? A Paladin is far better support and control than this in every respect. A striker? Sort of, but melee strikers need some skirmishing capability or more action economy in which a Barbarian can get. Also if he wanted a striker he would have at least kept the Extra Attacks. It is clear he wants something else, but it is questionable whether it really needs to be a base class.

Actually I said that the 4e Fighter is what I had in mind, referring to how it had an identity due to being more specific. The 3e and 5e Fighters are too... generic of classes for games that are made up of specific classes. I didn't say that my fighter had to be a defender.

I don't really care right now what the magic classes can do, they are on a different level because they can be made with different assumptions and abilities. The only three martial classes that 5e has is the Barbarian, Fighter, and Rogue. If these three can become balanced versus the game AND have meaningful growth and abilities past level 8... Then I would be happy.

It isn't about PvP or Class v Class. You don't have to make classes that compete with the caster/partial casters, they will always be better because of how WotC likes to make their casters.

But if you can make your martials flexible, versatile, and have growth past level 8... You don't need to worry about what the magic users can do as you will have a solid class.

In 4e the Avenger and Warlock weren't always the best strikers. However they could hold their own and was pretty freaking awesome in their own right. You didn't need to do Ranger level damage or Fighter level defending to be a solid/good class. In 3e you could play a Warblade, Crusader, or Swordsage and just because you wasn't as straight up powerful as a Cleric, Wizard, or Druid didn't mean your class wasn't a solid well built (and balanced) class.

Amnoriath
2016-01-19, 02:33 PM
Actually I said that the 4e Fighter is what I had in mind, referring to how it had an identity due to being more specific. The 3e and 5e Fighters are too... generic of classes for games that are made up of specific classes. I didn't say that my fighter had to be a defender.

I don't really care right now what the magic classes can do, they are on a different level because they can be made with different assumptions and abilities. The only three martial classes that 5e has is the Barbarian, Fighter, and Rogue. If these three can become balanced versus the game AND have meaningful growth and abilities past level 8... Then I would be happy.

It isn't about PvP or Class v Class. You don't have to make classes that compete with the caster/partial casters, they will always be better because of how WotC likes to make their casters.

But if you can make your martials flexible, versatile, and have growth past level 8... You don't need to worry about what the magic users can do as you will have a solid class.

In 4e the Avenger and Warlock weren't always the best strikers. However they could hold their own and was pretty freaking awesome in their own right. You didn't need to do Ranger level damage or Fighter level defending to be a solid/good class. In 3e you could play a Warblade, Crusader, or Swordsage and just because you wasn't as straight up powerful as a Cleric, Wizard, or Druid didn't mean your class wasn't a solid well built (and balanced) class.

1. Nor did I say that you thought it had to be a defender but none the less the 4e Fighter was one in its own right.
2. I wasn't necessarily talking about the Paladin spells. I was talking about their Auras and damage which doesn't need any kind of spell knowledge and unless you are a Vengeance paladin you have 3 of them always on.
3. You just said you thought the 3.X and 5e versions are too generic but then you say they should have flexibility and versatility. You have mutually exclusive thoughts here. This class heavily enforces melee with no options to defend others so it is less versatile and flexible than the original even if you buffed a couple of numbers and added a shield bonus action.
4. I am not comparing your class with full casters or even spells necessarily at all. I am comparing it to the original, a Barbarian, and what a Paladin just simply has without spell knowledge. All of them could defend and protect others better than yours can. Currently, its a statue with the highest minimum damage per hit.
5. I am going to show what I did. I am not doing this to say you should copy this. I am putting it out there so you understand your current base lacks a role without feats or sub-classes. The original and the others I mentioned though already had some though.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473476-The-Dawn-of-War-5e-Fighter-remix(PEACH)#post20241474

SpawnOfMorbo
2016-01-19, 06:08 PM
Did you look at what I was quoting? He said he wanted it to be a Defender like the 4e. He has no base mechanic to draw the hits to him nor even any kind of special ability or additional action economy to use the baste strength checks more. You call it a support or regulator? A Paladin is far better support and control than this in every respect. A striker? Sort of, but melee strikers need some skirmishing capability or more action economy in which a Barbarian can get. Also if he wanted a striker he would have at least kept the Extra Attacks. It is clear he wants something else, but it is questionable whether it really needs to be a base class.


1. Nor did I say that you thought it had to be a defender but none the less the 4e Fighter was one in its own right.

Like, one post ago dude.

I never said it had to be a defender, and here is a copy of the fluff for the fighter.

"And the third and last phase, but not least in the slightest, is the ones that support others in the field. They can hold their own in direct combat and help allies crush others, or they can help infiltrate and provide the necessary backup if things go wrong. These adventurers called Fighters are not second fiddle to no-one as they know to succeed in combat one must have all phases covered."

Amnoriath
2016-01-19, 08:26 PM
Like, one post ago dude.

I never said it had to be a defender, and here is a copy of the fluff for the fighter.

"And the third and last phase, but not least in the slightest, is the ones that support others in the field. They can hold their own in direct combat and help allies crush others, or they can help infiltrate and provide the necessary backup if things go wrong. These adventurers called Fighters are not second fiddle to no-one as they know to succeed in combat one must have all phases covered."

You should look after what you have put in bold "but none the less the 4e Fighter was one in its own right." and you should note "like the 4e". So because you want a 4e Fighter you are looking for a Defender of course all class often had a sub-role but this was the primary role of the Fighter. I never did say that it was your specific goal to only make a Defender because of course there wasn't just that in 4e.
As for the flavor text support it does not do. They can take and deal damage definitely. Inflitrate eh, maybe, I wouldn't trust a 1/2 proficiency only with that. All phases covered it really only has one and a couple more numbers.

R.Shackleford
2016-08-22, 10:31 PM
SNIP

I'm absolutely loving the subclasses, though I want to take a look at the whole fighter in depth tomorrow and see how they actually stack up.

You might want to just make this a 10 level class since most people don't play past level 10.

Also, dude, this will help you make beautiful homebrew.

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com


Edit

I think you should combine the Magic Initiate Feat and the Ritual Caster feat.

2 cantrips usable at-will and then 1 spell that increases in power as you level (usable per short rest) 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level (much like a warlock).

But then you also gain a ritual book.

Then have your teleport and attack as it is above.

SpawnOfMorbo
2016-08-23, 10:41 AM
I'm absolutely loving the subclasses, though I want to take a look at the whole fighter in depth tomorrow and see how they actually stack up.

You might want to just make this a 10 level class since most people don't play past level 10.

Also, dude, this will help you make beautiful homebrew.

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com


Edit

I think you should combine the Magic Initiate Feat and the Ritual Caster feat.

2 cantrips usable at-will and then 1 spell that increases in power as you level (usable per short rest) 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level (much like a warlock).

But then you also gain a ritual book.

Then have your teleport and attack as it is above.

I'm not sure if I'll leave it at 10 levels, but I do like it (one of the things I loved about 13th age)

Also, homebrewery is a godsend. :smallbiggrin:

R.Shackleford
2016-08-24, 09:22 PM
Mage Slayer (Anti-Magic)

Mage Slayer
At 3rd level you gain Mage Slayer as a bonus feat.

Improved Mage Slayer
Starting at 6th level your reaction to hit a creature casting a spell within 5' of you is an Opportunity Attack. Additionally your opportunity attack goes off before the spell is finished casting.

Greater Mage Slayer
Starting at 9th level, whenever you are a target of a spell by a hostile creature you may use a reaction to travel along magical energy. This allows you to teleport up to 60'. This reaction goes off before the spell is finished casting and you must teleport to a space adjacent to the hostile spellcaster.

I have a few questions about Greater Mage Slayer.

Do you mean for this to work on any spell such as firebolt, suggestion, and fireball or just when you are the only target. I really think it should be targeted and not AoE spells.

Also, if the spell hasn't been cast yet, how do you transport through the magical energies? Maybe have it work more like gravity/magnets?

Also, and this might be a DM thing, it seems like a caster wouldn't be able to change the location of a spell that doesn't have creature targets (fireball) so this would be a bit powerful. Spells like Hold Person could still be attached to you the target tho. How are you going to work with casters targeting?

R.Shackleford
2016-08-24, 10:42 PM
Your Critical Strike not only precludes a weapon style it is not worth its limit. An attack is better than it unless you can stack in some Sneak Attack which could be possible.

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BkBoMJqc

The OP has taken out critical strike, which I actually liked and would love to see a class based around at some point. That link is to the current redesign.

(More ppl should use homebrewery.naturalcrit.com )