(PF) Feedback needed for extensive rework into more of a beginners game.

[Florian]

Hi Guys!

I´m just working on a very lightweight setting for a sandbox campaign that I´ve managed to convince some of my coworkers to participate in next year. Doing this, I was thinking about "trimming" down PF a bit to make it more handle-able for people I know will never buy any of the books or show any interest in reading more of the actual rules than is necessary.

Before I waste to much time with reaching dead ends and unsolvable problems, I wanted to have your feedback on my general thoughts on this.

Please note that the setting is keyed to a "Four Elements" theme and a lot of stuff is based on the elemental connection.

Attributes:
The old attributes (Str, Dex, Con...) will be replaced with these:
- Luck, your stat for rerolls and saves.
- Magic, the only "Caster Stat" for all kinds of magic.
- Might, the only stat for all kinds of combat.
- Skill, the relevant stat for gaining more skill points.
- Spirit, the relevant stat for all x/day abilities.
- Vitality, your hit points.


Races:
Only four races (Dwarf, Elf, Human, Orc), each following a template similar to the Tiefling.
- One floating +2 to one stat at CharGen, two +1 on other stats (not stackable)
- +1 CL for racial element spells.
- Scaling Resistance for racial element.
- One Skill Focus as a bonus feat.

Note: Racial archetype are a thing here.

Classes:
Only three base classes, but each having a racial archetype for it. No Companions, Familiars or other form of "pet".
- 1/1 BAB, 1-4 Spells, 1 feat/2 levels
- 3/4 BAB, 1-6 Spells, 1 feat/4 levels
- 1/2 BAB, 1-9 Spells, 1 feat/5 levels

(I´m still thinking about how to include stuff like Smite, Lay on Hands, Wild Shape, Judgements and so on)

Every class gets on race-specific archetype, that highlights some of the usual tropes and cliches. For example, all three Elf archetypes can gish, all three orc archetypes can rage, and so on.

Items:
WBL will be cut to around 1/3 of the usual gp values. PF Automatic Bonus Progression will be in place and also hardwired into the class progression. The only thing to be found and handled are "named" items and consumables.

Magic:
This will be the hardest nut to crack.
There´s only be seven flavors of magic: The four elemental ones (Air, Earth, Fire, Water) the two divine ones (Dark, Light), and universal for all purpose spells.
All casters will work like the PF Arcanist: Spell book for what you learned, spells prepared for what they can do each day. "Bonus spells prepared" come from race.
The distinction between arcane and divine drops, as it makes no sense in this context.

(I´ve had a question regarding more grim´n gritty rules, insanity and stuff like that. If my work here is going well, this will be the basis of the darker version of it)

So, guys and gals, what do you think? Too simplistic? Doable?

[Kudaku]

This thread should probably be in the Homebrew section (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design). With that said, have you considered checking out the Beginner Box (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/products/beginnerbox)? The PDF rules are available on the Paizo website free of charge.

[Florian]

This thread should probably be in the Homebrew section (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design). With that said, have you considered checking out the Beginner Box (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/products/beginnerbox)? The PDF rules are available on the Paizo website free of charge.

I know (and own) the Beginner Box and it is not what I´m aiming for.
I didn´t post this in homebrew, as I´m still trying to figure out how and what the changes in the mechanics will lead to. I want that cleared before I really go into home brewing that.

[Savannah]

The Mod One Out: Moved to Homebrew -- the people there are the best for talking about what the mechanics changes will do.

[Wmcook]

I've started working on making an alternate simplified system compatible with PF and 3.5. Not exactly what you're describing but it is meant to let you choose whatever character party you want and add any skill by you and the DM deciding what category it falls under. I'm not finished with it but perhaps it will have an idea or two for you. The other part was to get rid of all the +this and -that and replace it with proficiency/ mastery of skills and abilities.

Sorry I haven't posted enough for direct links

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zbl1tgvKCc5i1V5BoFhhf25WjgN1leU1WE1V9gFkKxQ/edit?usp=docslist_api

[avr]

Spirit sounds like it'd be a natural dump stat for most characters. This may not matter to you, just saying.

Vitality is less important (and even more boring) than constitution. A newbie might dump it entirely then not realise they've rendered themselves unfit for combat. Or they might ramp it (and might) up at the expense of other stats then find they're fairly useless out of combat. You probably want your newbies to be involved most of the time so both of these are undesireable.

[Florian]

I've started working on making an alternate simplified system compatible with PF and 3.5. Not exactly what you're describing but it is meant to let you choose whatever character party you want and add any skill by you and the DM deciding what category it falls under. I'm not finished with it but perhaps it will have an idea or two for you. The other part was to get rid of all the +this and -that and replace it with proficiency/ mastery of skills and abilities.

Sorry I haven't posted enough for direct links

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zbl1tgvKCc5i1V5BoFhhf25WjgN1leU1WE1V9gFkKxQ/edit?usp=docslist_api

So far, I wanted to go with a combination of the Background Skills and Skill Groups approach from Unchained. Packages could be "Dungeon", "Wilderness", and so on. But I'll look at your spreadsheet when I get home as inspiration is always nice to have.


Spirit sounds like it'd be a natural dump stat for most characters. This may not matter to you, just saying.

Vitality is less important (and even more boring) than constitution. A newbie might dump it entirely then not realise they've rendered themselves unfit for combat. Or they might ramp it (and might) up at the expense of other stats then find they're fairly useless out of combat. You probably want your newbies to be involved most of the time so both of these are undesireable.

I feel that attributes and their "worth" have a problem right now as the number of key abilities that are tied to a stat is unevenly distributed.
Compare Dex and Con w/o taking specific classes into account:
- Con is tied to hp and Fort saves.
- Dex is tied to initiative, Ref saves, AC, Ranged to hit and a lot of skills.

Right now, I'm of the opinion that due to legacy, way too much stuff is handles too fiddly and needlessly interconnected.

[Florian]

The Spirit attribute, spell casting, initiating maneuvers, exhaustion and upkeep:

Each class gains an "Action" pool (need a better name). The base calculation is 1/2 level + Spirit, minimum of one.

Initiating special actions or casting spells in encounters costs one point from this pool. You empty your pool, you "run dry" for the rest of the encounter, needing to rely on basic actions.
This pool refreshes after each encounter is finished (but see upkeep and exhaustion).

Upkeep: Buffs are always "all day long" but need upkeep. Upkeep "blocks" one point of the pool as long as the effect is kept going.

Exhaustion: Using a "heavy duty" spell or maneuver blocks one point of the pool until the next full rest or until the effect ends, whatever takes longer.
(Explanation: Use Planar Binding to have a servitor for 2 weeks will block a certain amount of the pool for these two weeks as you need to power the spell)

[Wmcook]

The new starts could be predetermined per class to bypass the potential of dumping stats that others have noted.

[Florian]

The new starts could be predetermined per class to bypass the potential of dumping stats that others have noted.

I´m of two minds on this right now.

The racial boni are +2/+1/+1. I´m thinking of modifying the level up boni (4th, 8th..) to be equal to that.

My feeling is that you should be able to customize your character for your personal play style and that needs some wiggle room. That leaves out totally pregenerated stats.

Maybe modify the Point Buy table to not include negative points anymore, so a "10" would be the lowest possible value then?

[Wmcook]

My feeling is that you should be able to customize your character for your personal play style .


I couldn't agree more. That's pretty much why I am working on my system also. Which I'll start another thread in as I get further along.

The only reason I mentioned pregen stats was because I don't know the experience of your coworkers and your mention of reading rules as little as possible. I used both from scratch and full pregen characters for new players depending on how much they want to put into it.

I decided to get rid of below 10 myself ( even though i show it as 0) because I wanted to base things on what you are good and trained in and not have to track +this -that. Anything you aren't proficient in is just a natural D20 roll.

I personally was doing away with racial based stats so people could pick the race they want to play and not which one gives them better stats for a certain class. You want to be a Dwarf wizard or high elf barnerian then sure have fun.

[Florian]

Thoughts on Skills, Skill Groups, "Essential Skills" and re-keyed attributes:

- Skills and Attributes are no longer "keyed" on an individual scale. The only remaining attribute is "Skill" and that is a blanket modifier on each and every skill.
- Classes no longer have "N+Int" Skills. Full BAB/Full Casting are N=2, Full Skill are N=6.
- Each Character has two free skill groups, one based on race, one based on class. Each of these skill groups has one knowledge, one craft and one profession skill.