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gadren
2016-01-15, 12:30 AM
I've been preparing a pathfinder game that allows most 3.5 material, but only has tier 3 classes.
I've made (what I feel are) tier 3 versions of all the classes that don't cast spells:

Barbarian (https://sites.google.com/site/bardawilcampaignsite/core-classes/barbarian)
Bolt Ace (https://sites.google.com/site/bardawilcampaignsite/core-classes/bolt-ace)
Cavalier (https://sites.google.com/site/bardawilcampaignsite/core-classes/knight-commander)
Fighter (https://sites.google.com/site/bardawilcampaignsite/core-classes/fighter)
Monk (https://sites.google.com/site/bardawilcampaignsite/core-classes/monk)
Rogue (https://sites.google.com/site/bardawilcampaignsite/core-classes/rogue)
Slayer (https://sites.google.com/site/bardawilcampaignsite/core-classes/slayer)
Swashbuckler (https://sites.google.com/site/bardawilcampaignsite/core-classes/swashbuckler)

I'd be very interested on the following input:
1. What tier would YOU rate them at?
2. Is there anything unclear about any of them as written?
3. Is there anything that you think would be un-fun or too complicated in practice?

Please note that I have intentionally broken with some 3.5 design conventions, and have tried to avoid the guy-at-the-gym fallacy of game design to a certain extent (which is why the barbarian can do stuff like pick up a gargantuan creature and throw it at 20th level). I have tried to make each class a strong contender in combat with spellcasters, not just in terms of damage but ability to use other tactical options. I have also tried to make sure each class has something they can do outside of combat.

avr
2016-01-15, 03:30 AM
I'm not seeing how the bolt ace does anything special outside combat. Reliable and useful in combat, sure, but getting a bonus to perception doesn't enable them to do anything in particular out of combat. The fighter has the same problem only more so, a free profession skill (on a 2+Int skill class!) is flavour but nothing more.

In all cases the text displays in a narrow vertical strip. Not all of the main class ability table is visible, it's that narrow. It's really hard to read.

More feedback later.

tsj
2016-01-15, 03:46 AM
Despite there being heavy critique of the tier system from some of the experienced posters,
I still (as a non experienced poster though), think that this is a great initiative.

I would suggest that, when your new tier 3 classes are perfected,
that you should try to create tier 3 classes for classes like
wizard, cleric, druid, sorceror and other tier 1 and 2 classes...

Many seem to agree that tier 3 is "the sweet spot" for 3.x/PF/d20 classes.

I see that your webpage has suggestions for a large number of classes,
maybe even including some of the classes I mention.

I hope someone can help you out with figuring out the relative/avg tiers of your classes.

I think you have made a lot of very cool classes and many of them have some great stuff...

I really like the new barbarian and

being a fan of the playstyle of the warlock class, I am gratefull that you have made a
much needed upgraded version of that class.

I wish your stuff was available as a PDF file :)

gadren
2016-01-15, 12:45 PM
I'm not seeing how the bolt ace does anything special outside combat. Reliable and useful in combat, sure, but getting a bonus to perception doesn't enable them to do anything in particular out of combat. The fighter has the same problem only more so, a free profession skill (on a 2+Int skill class!) is flavour but nothing more. yeah... I'm struggling with what to give them that is thematically appropriate. Any suggestions are appreciated.


In all cases the text displays in a narrow vertical strip. Not all of the main class ability table is visible, it's that narrow. It's really hard to read.
hmm, what are you using to view the website? It shouldn't look like that.


.

I wish your stuff was available as a PDF file :)
I definitely will make one when I finish the final draft.

avr
2016-01-16, 09:55 PM
yeah... I'm struggling with what to give them that is thematically appropriate. Any suggestions are appreciated.
Maybe take a look at Paizo's Versatile Training feature here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter#TOC-Advanced-Weapon-Training) (scroll down a bit) for some ideas on expanding skills. You might prefer to use your gifted skills mechanic of course. Personally I think that 2+int skills is an abomination and effectively eliminating it is a fine idea.

The druman blackjackets (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/blackjacket-fighter-archetype) have a means of sharing teamwork feats with a little preparation in advance. While it affects combat, it has to be done out of combat which gives the fighter something to do then. On a longer timescale, maybe a higher level fighter/bolt ace could train a unit of troops up a level?

Way, way back fighters used to have the easiest time attracting followers. More of them at an earlier level. If you're not planning to run a game where the players hold castles and lead armies this isn't relevant of course.

hmm, what are you using to view the website? It shouldn't look like that.
Safari & Chrome, same prob w/each.

Grod_The_Giant
2016-01-19, 09:52 AM
Okay, let's see...

Barbarian
Unchained Barbarian is a pretty good start. They're already quick combat capable. To which you add...

d20 HD:I feel like the swing on 1d20 is too big for a hit die. Barbarians are already tough as **** anyway.
Primal Fury: You really don't need maneuvers. I don't think they're going to break anything, but the Barbarian is already a quite potent melee combatant, with solid variety thanks to Rage powers.
Intimidating: Too much, methinks. The social skills are always kind of dangerous to buff, and Intimidate with its combat use is doubly so. I'd reduce the bonus to, oh, Strength modifier, and maybe move swift-action demoralize to a higher level.
Heavy Lifter is good, especially since Rage apparently doesn't help Strength at all anymore. But those checks get awfully high, especially for... I was going to say combat maneuvers, but those are all CMB checks, not Strength checks. Should be fine.
Hurl Enemy and Body Weaponry look fun. I'd make the size categories based on the Barbarian's own size, rather than absolutes. Maybe switch the order you get them, too.

My analysis: "Tier 3.5," along with things like the Duskblade and Warblade. Very powerful and flexible in combat, with a bit of utility. A fine spot to be in, especially for a smash-and-grab kind of character.

<more to come>

gadren
2016-01-19, 11:05 AM
Okay, let's see...

Barbarian
Unchained Barbarian is a pretty good start. They're already quick combat capable. To which you add...

d20 HD:I feel like the swing on 1d20 is too big for a hit die. Barbarians are already tough as **** anyway.
Primal Fury: You really don't need maneuvers. I don't think they're going to break anything, but the Barbarian is already a quite potent melee combatant, with solid variety thanks to Rage powers.
Intimidating: Too much, methinks. The social skills are always kind of dangerous to buff, and Intimidate with its combat use is doubly so. I'd reduce the bonus to, oh, Strength modifier, and maybe move swift-action demoralize to a higher level.
Heavy Lifter is good, especially since Rage apparently doesn't help Strength at all anymore. But those checks get awfully high, especially for... I was going to say combat maneuvers, but those are all CMB checks, not Strength checks. Should be fine.
Hurl Enemy and Body Weaponry look fun. I'd make the size categories based on the Barbarian's own size, rather than absolutes. Maybe switch the order you get them, too.

My analysis: "Tier 3.5," along with things like the Duskblade and Warblade. Very powerful and flexible in combat, with a bit of utility. A fine spot to be in, especially for a smash-and-grab kind of character.

<more to come>

Thanks for the input!
When you say 3.5, do you mean half way between tiers 2 and 3, or between 3 and 4?

Grod_The_Giant
2016-01-19, 11:10 AM
Thanks for the input!
When you say 3.5, do you mean half way between tiers 2 and 3, or between 3 and 4?
Between 3 and 4. They're more versatile than most T4 classes that focus on powerful, but more powerful than those who focus on versatility, but not really on the level of things like the Bard or Alchemist.

Bolt Ace

Crossbow Maven: Good. Cutting out an obligatory feat tax is always worth it.
Squall Technique: So... a free stance (probably Galebreaker's Stance to ignore wind issues), and some improved ability to spend feats on maneuvers you can sort of use in combat? Ok... I feel like maneuvers and deeds sort of occupy the same conceptual space, though.
Specialty: Neat. Archtypical (Mysterious Stranger) would be your best bet for utility, since then you could be a face. Disciplined is just... so many bonus feats total. I think too many, probably-- maybe make it free maneuvers instead. It also kind of conflicts with Extra Gritty, which I feel like is also necessary for maneuver use.
Perceptive: Good.
Sneak Attack: Okay? Gunslingers, even Bolt Aces, never really lacked for damage, though.
Bonus Feats: So... many... but good; you need so many feats. (Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, and Deadly Aim; probably also Clustered Shots, Crossbow Mastery, and Improved Critical; quite possibly TWF feats and Gun Twirling, especially with the next feature)
Armor Piecing: Yeesh. I know guns could do this already, but it kind of feels like too much?

My analysis: It's a lot better at what it does-- the extra bonus feats and return of Dex-to-Damage in particular. Like the Barbarian, you'll be a pretty fierce combatant, but kind of meh otherwise? Unless you go the face route-- a dip in Inquisitor (Heretic) with the Reformation Inquisition will get you your social skills based off Wis, or you can just go Archtypical (Mysterious Stranger). I'm not sure what would really fit for them, though... maybe add Disable Device and Trapfinding? That would go decently well, methinks.

Cavalier
Oh geez... just looking at the top, this looks like it's going to be a mish-mash...

Aura: Minor Auras still steal the show; the Major Aura bonus is, I think, much too low to be really useful. I'd bump it up to maybe +1/3 levels. Or start at +2, then improve by +2 at 7th, 12th, and 20th. You could probably also use more known at once. Honestly, I suspect you could have all auras known and you'd be fine.
Call-Out: Alright, but it seems like it's occupying the same conceptual space as Challenge-- maybe fold them together.
Bonus Feats: Over two levels, you gain five of these. That's a lot.

The Skill Focuses are nice, but kind of eh.
Tactician is useful, but I feel like it could be more gracefully folded into something else. Maybe a Major Aura to grant everyone a teamwork feat you possess?
Combat Reflexes: Why? I mean, it's good for a tank, but not for a leader or a mounted fighter.
Mounted Combat: You should get this at first-- you'll probably be trying for those mounted feats ASAP.
Shield block: Too much complexity for too small a bonus. I'd say either make it a straight upgrade to the AC bonus, or apply your shield bonus to touch AC whenever you're not denied your Dex bonus.
Bulwark of Defense: Suddenly tank abilities.
And... I'm going to stop right there. This class has a serious focus problem. The three classes you merged were conceptually similar, but mechanically distinct: one was a leader, one a striker, and one a tank. Now you're mashing all of them together, and it's starting to hurt. Specifically, I think, the mounted combat/charging abilities and the tanking abilities, which feel diametrically opposed. I think a choice is in order here: either be a Lancer, and get the offensive charge-type bonuses, or be a Templar, and get the defensive tank-type bonuses.
Grant Move Action: I'd like this to be useable much more often. Maybe per-encounter instead of per-day.
Banner: This is another aura. Get rid of it. If you want to keep the "banner" flavor bit, maybe improve your aura bonus by 1 when flying your banner (and -1 if it's dropped or destroyed)
Supreme Charge: how does this interact with Spirited Charge? (Because you WILL have Spirited Charge)


So... yeah. It's a solid T3, but it's a sloppy class.

gadren
2016-01-19, 12:09 PM
Continued thanks, Grod. I know some of these probably leave quite a bit of room for improvement, but that's why I'm seeking input, after all.

tsj
2016-01-19, 01:08 PM
@grod:
Wouldn't it be an advantage for a
combat type class to be versatile
enough to be able to be both
Tank, leader and striker?

If the fluff was rewritten then
It could be a kind of
Battle general that lead others
While also tanking / going to melee and
When specially tough SOBS
Needed eŠimation he would be a striker?

A caster can be both buffer, debugger and
Battlefield controller afterall

Grod_The_Giant
2016-01-19, 01:34 PM
@grod:
Wouldn't it be an advantage for a
combat type class to be versatile
enough to be able to be both
Tank, leader and striker?

If the fluff was rewritten then
It could be a kind of
Battle general that lead others
While also tanking / going to melee and
When specially tough SOBS
Needed eŠimation he would be a striker?

A caster can be both buffer, debugger and
Battlefield controller afterall
Versatility is good, but "tank" and "charger" really aren't compatible styles. A charger, particularly a mounted one, wants to rush ahead of the party, moving potentially quite large distances every turn. In all probability, he won't be anywhere near an ally (except his mount, I guess). A tank, on the other hand, is all about positioning. He needs to stay close to the squishy party members and set himself up in the right place to block as many attackers from getting by as possible. You wind up with this situation where your abilities are pulling you in two directions.

gadren
2016-01-19, 01:58 PM
Well, that is why I gave them the ability to charge their challenged target if it attacks an ally, but I'll contemplate how to make its abilities less contradictory.

Grod_The_Giant
2016-01-19, 02:53 PM
Fighter
I note that he still seems to have sub-average skill points? I think everyone else I've looked at so far has had 5.

Combat Challenge: I like it. Good tanky ability without the silliness of 4e "marks."
Weapon Mastery: Boring but acceptable. I like getting Advanced Weapon Training earlier, but honestly I might push it up even further: Every time you get the ability, you pick a weapon group and gain the static bonus and an advanced option.
Shrug it Off: This is REALLY good. Maybe too good; I'm not sure. Possibly drop the reduction to 10+1/2 level?
Versatility: Hmm, alright. Adds a nice bit of skill list improvement, though Versatile Training is still a way better option.
Fighter's Reflexes: Good; he'll need it.
Technique: So... he's an initiator now?
Pursuit: I like it.
Veteran: I don't like it. If you're a veteran, wouldn't you have been investing in those skills all along? It feels like an entirely unnecessary bit of enforced flavor paired with crappy mechanics.
Extraordinary Tactics: Neat. Maybe a bit TOO limited, honestly.
Fighter's Physique: I note that, with the uBarbarian's change to rage, this means a fighter will probably be stronger than a Barbarian. I'd give this feature to the latter class, honestly.
Weapon Mastery: Weak and boring capstone.

My Analysis: Tier 4. A solid T4, better than they were before, but still fairly limited*. I'd upgrade Versatility to Versatile Training, which would give him a lot more skill support, and, well...

The fighter is meant to be a master of combat, right? The most skilled with all weapons and styles? But the nature of the game makes that impossible-- being competent at a fighting style requires multiple feats, and you'd have to spend a fortune to keep multiple magic weapons for multiple styles. I don't know if that's an issue you want to address, but feel free to plunder my homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276280-GitP-Fighter-Fix-18343-3-Ziegander-Grod-Tag-Team-Action!) for ideas.

Off the top of my head, I'd say tie it in to weapon training: let weapon training weapons bypass DR as if they're magic, and grant a separate pool of feats for each weapon group you pick, only useable when wielding a weapon of that group (and few to no conventional always-on bonus feats). So you'd get maybe feat X all the time, but also feats Y and Z when wielding a sword and feats A and B when wielding a bow.


*My personal opinion is that skill points alone aren't enough for proper T3 versatility; you need something more, something capable of augmenting them. The Bard gets Bardic Knack or Versatile Performer, depending on edition. The Investigator gets Inspiration. The Factotum gets Brains Over Brawn and Cunning Knowledge. (And also spell type stuff, for most of those, but you get the idea).

gadren
2016-01-19, 03:05 PM
Regarding skill points: every 2+ int class has been upgraded to 4+ int, and all other classes have their skill points increased by one, which is why you'll see a lot of 5+ int classes.

I wish I could address every point, but I'm at work and limited to short posts at the moment.

gadren
2016-01-21, 12:40 AM
OK, so based on Grod's and other input, some changes I plan to make include:

- Modify Barbarian's hurl enemy to be based on the barbarian's size
- On Bolt Ace do... something? not sure yet. I personally don't feel like trapfinding is there thing, but I'm not sure what is. Part of the reason I gave the free archetype was to xpand them beyond "being really good with crossbows". I know my player that wants to play the buccaneer archetype is pretty happy, because buccaneer is charisma-based and adds some other flavor stuff. Maybe instead of changing the class more I should write up some other interesting archetypes?
- For Cavalier, aka the "Knight Commander" I think the best approach would be to make them like rangers and choose a "style". So they can choose to be better at charging or tanking.
- Fighter remains the tricky one. I will probably poach some stuff from Grod's homebrew.

And of course, I remain open to any further critique on any of the other classes, or more on the above classes.

Bdrone
2016-01-21, 02:57 PM
(Wow. wall of text. sorry...)

Okay, Ive been meaning to comment on this Bolt Ace, being a big fan of crossbows in general and feeling let down somewhat by the current iteration of the PF version of both those things (found a great crossbow variant recently, though, in where based on your STR mod you can change reload speeds to free actions without rapid reload, among other things...). that said, on first glance, i would play this version of bolt ace in a heartbeat over the current one. I'll get to why as i go over the differences i noticed.

Crossbow Maven- RIIIIGHT off the bat, I read this and was made very happy. before the addition of crossbow maven to Bolt Ace I wanted them to have Rapid Reload as a bonus feat for the class- it just makes sense if they specialize in such a weapon to the extent they do. im not saying i don't want the free weapon- but id rather have the feat. the fact you not only added Rapid Reload, but the skill check bit on crossbow related stuff was a move I gladly thumbs up. heck, I was going to craft the crossbow I mentioned above in a campaign I'm in now. THIS is how the ability should actually be!

Squall Technique- *GLEE* okay, I'm a big fan of Martial initiation and the path of war helps scratch my ranged itch. getting full initiator levels for these disciplines, martial training 2 levels early per tier, AND grit usable as an alt recovery method for the moves changes the game for me a LOT. I know it's made for a certain setting, but I murmured about a full bolt ace with 6th level access, and whether or not multi classing with path of war would be a thing I do here considering the wording on the ability (guess that's a good question- if I multi a martial initiator, does that sentence about full level apply if I only learn those disciplines? hmm... POW marksman archetype/Bolt ace possibilities?). since I'm not a fan of a lot of the grit abilities, this... would get a LOT of use from me.

Specialties- okay, this is just awesome.

Extra Gritty- Simple but effective if you foresee yourself using a LOT of grit. but wow. you go from Wis mod grit to 3/4s your level AND wis mod grit. Extra Gritty is RIGHT, especially considering the grit change i noticed.

Disciplined- I had to check my eyes to make sure i hadn't lost them. 6 bonus feats? okay, 1st off, AMAZING DIP MATERIAL (take one level of this and get 2 feats, one needed for crossbows and a crossbow with a stance to use it with? YES PLEASE). 2nd off, considering the amount of ranged feats you want already (4 that aren't already handled by bonus feats thus far), this is just awesome already before you notice Squall technique's synergy with it. and it would be my winning pick except for how you regen maneuvers with squall technique begging for more grit, and...

Archetypal- ...this one exists. okay, I read this and i first thought- "ehh, what can this do?" so I perused the non bolt ace archetypes out as is, and it didn't impress to much.. until i saw the archetype buccaneer in the list you worked on. I honestly want to see the written changes to each archetype now, because this has my interest. i love the changes to the grog points in the buccaneer variant here. id like to see the Mysterious stranger (get the other Cha-based version on there...), Pistolero, Heavy Crossbow Master, Experimental Crossbow Smith, and Crossbow Scavenger myself. the first 3 because they were/are prime archetypes for the normal Gunslinger- the last 2 because id like to see how those two who have major gun related mechanics (more so than the others) would change. huh. just noticed a Reckless Hero archetype. woah. won't fit in your setting but... hm.

Specialties is just amazing. it has good potential multi class or no. and I'm not immediately sold on any particular one. they all are great choices to me, depending on how you go about things.

Grit- Stopping here to note something- I like the killing blow change here. if you weren't focus firing with your friends before- well, you are now! this particularly cuts down on anyone complaining they juuust missed a kill- because provided they didn't totally whiff that turn, they get grit even if their friend lands the downing blow. between this and potential crossbow crit rate (whats the best way to expand those odds?) you will out grit the old variant for certain! Good thing as well- with squall technique, you've got a LOT more potential grit uses.

Nothing to say about Deeds- these appear to be the same, and any issues I had with them from inconsistency to otherwise isn't on your work.

Bonus feats- another amazing amount of feats. what I said at Disciplined applies here. Im loving all these feats for any variant you run. especially since I'm usually playing human or another race with a bonus feat to get my builds online, this is just amazing. Disciplined aces ready up fast, extra gritty folks got a good bit to use, and archetypal still have plenty of room to explore and customize. just awesome.

Perceptive- so... free perception skill and skill focus in an average game? UHM, YES ILL TAKE THAT. incidentally i like the skill system in this setting.i love having more skills to employ.

Crossbow Sneak Attack- you'd think id be nuts about this one, and yet... I'm coming up cold on it. I mean, I like Sharp shoot's synergy with it because so far as i know you can't use Deadly Aim with any sharp shoot attacks unless ive missed something (have i?)... but Ive heard so much about setting up ranged sneak attacks and the issues with it. it'll get use, but I'm just not sure how much.

Still, pretty nice to have, especially when you factor in...

Armor Piercing- okay. this? Is awesome if your willing to get that close, which from what i know of crossbow history is actually quite fitting anyway. this makes for a crazy brutal spot for anyone to be in. and my brains already swimming with a build idea to really dig into it.

all that said.. my question responses.

1. What tier would YOU rate them at? im not a good judge but... here goes. Superior to the original Bolt Ace from several combat perspectives, id put this class at LEAST at rank 3 now because of how much more effective in combat they've become (tempest gale tricks, raw solar wind power, SA's and so on- if Warblade hung out in tier 3 in 3.5's listing (it did, right?), I could see this class there.), and that capacity along with fresh feat access may give the player more ways to be of more help out of combat. that said, to me the PF Gunslinger in general has really only been helpful for scaling damage bonuses on not bow weapons because i don't want to use bows.between SA progression, archetypal possibilities and the extra feats early on and throughout, id be much more likely to stick in here the full ride. i may not like having to play a class to draw great power out of a specific type of weapon like this- but THIS bolt ace is one id gladly play with the current crossbow design. with the modified ones Ive found? Even more so.

2. Is there anything unclear about any of them as written? anything Ive considered unclear thus far that I didn't already say would stem only from the fact elements of both PF's Gunslinger and Bolt Ace needed clarification in certain aspects (see, Dead Shot deed until recently, Sharp shoot and deadly aim. incidentally, id go over and make sure to remove any notes about guns in the bolt ace entries. they aren't even a thing, right?)

3. Is there anything that you think would be un-fun or too complicated in practice? With this class, nothing i can think of. its all centered towards filling people full of bolts or devising interesting ways that lead to it. it's just my style, and I'm loving it from where I see it. the new things added either already existed, or are simple to wrap ones head around compared to other ways it could go. the least direct thing you have here is Squall Technique, but once someone learns about martial initiation, this is all gravy. moving to sweet spots, deciding your tactic of build. i do worry slightly about maneuver regeneration with Squall technique, but this bolt ace isn't a true initiator quite yet, so it seems sensible on paper. id have to test it myself to know for sure, though without extra gritty it would demand a higher expanded grit or some item support potentially.

Id ask you draw up more of the archetypes and their abilities to see what they could do with them before putting more on the core class. It's the greatest way currently to take a character spin its direction beyond simply turning something into a pincushion i can think of. id agree that Trapfinding may not really connect, but with the boons to perception... well.. maybe it could work. either way, you figured a way to stick crossbows on full tilt with martial initiation flavoring in such a way its standing neck and neck with a song based class for my next character (my other thing Ive always wanted to mess with more- a class who's music based stuff feels like it to me, to that Ive only found 2). color me quite intrigued to see where you take this one.

Grod_The_Giant
2016-01-21, 04:02 PM
Ze Rogue:

Trapfinding is... too big, I think. It throws the RNG off completely. Either trap DCs are set based on the Rogue and no-one without the feature can compete, in which case you might as well just bring back 3.5's "must have this class feature to enter" mechanic, or the trap DCs are set to general values and the Rogue pretty much always succeeds.
The three bonus feats from Fast Talk are wildly uneven. One gives you a unique, useful ability; one gives you +2 to three skills and one gives you +2 to two. Add that to the fact that you eventually get all three, and there really isn't a choice here.
Finesse Training: A nice little upgrade. I mean, I feel like you might as well make Dex to damage with light weapons the default for everyone, but this is good.
I like Saw it Coming and the free Dirty Trick feats. Fun and fitting.
Gifted seems unneccessary. Just give them more skill points if you want them to have more skills.
Combat Advantage seems like too much. You're basically guaranteeing sneak attacks with no effort. Maybe tone it down to something like "enemies threatened by one of your allies considered flat-footed against the first attack you make against them. This effect only applies once per enemy per encounter" or something along those lines. Or drop it-- it's not like getting Sneak Attack was terribly onerous to begin with.

It's probably T3. The free Dirty Tricking is the main thing pushing it above the uRogue-- that guy was already pretty dang good, but now he has a second set of tricks up his sleeve. Maybe at some point grant him an effectively full BAB for Dirty Tricking?

Slayer
I... didn't know they had a problem? But okay.

Full sneak attack seems unnecessary, on top of all the other improvements. (Also I never really liked having both sneak attack and studied target-- seems conceptually redundant, somehow, though studied target isn't enough bonus damage to stand alone)
Bypass Immunity is nice.
Hide in Plain Sight is nice, probably making these guys better stealth-rogues than the Rogue.
Vital Strike is a nice way of bridging that conceptual gap, I admit.
Stealthy... you already had points in stealth. I guarantee it.
I like Devastating Blow.
Astronomical Precision kind of comes out of nowhere-- suddenly you care about Int?
Quarry appears twice. You also get Improved and Greater Quarry at the same level.

You, I think, have a problem here: the Slayer is a better Rogue than the Rogue. He's better at fighting, better at sneaking, better at ambushing fighting. You need to cut some stuff back, especially on the damage side of things. Honestly? I think I'd drop Sneak Attack altogether, apart from Vital Strike. Crank up the bonus from Studied Target a bit to compensate-- maybe add Int to attack and damage, to give you a reason to have it from level 1? That way there's at least some mechanical space between the two classes, if not conceptual.

Swasbuckler
The Swashbuckler was already a great T3ish melee class, I was pretty sure. But okay.

Improved Disarm is flavorful if not overly useful
Extra Panache: Why? If you think they don't get enough panache, just increase the base amount to 1/2 level+Cha. Cleaner all around.
Steel Liver: Heh. Maybe also grant a bonus/immunity to "unwanted" effects of alcohol, just for flavor's sake.
Sly Flourish: Unnecessary. You're already doing +level with every hit, and probably also Piranha Strike. You don't need a second stat to damage.
Swashbuckler's Quickness: The first part is redundant-- you have a high Dex and Swashbuckler's Initiative-- and the second is too weak. Increase that speed bonus to a useful level, please.
Charismatic Gift: ...hmm, put my previous comments about Gifted Skills aside for now; I think I'm missing a houserule on these?
Duel: Given that you'll only be able to target a single enemy anyway, and can change them at well, uh... why not just call it Pounce? Actually, drop the charge altogether (it's not very swashbuckling) and just say you can make a full attack when using Spring Attack.
Uncanny Agility: I like.
Charisma: Probably not really necessary.
Double Duel: Will you ever use this?

Overall, I'd say you mostly boosted things that didn't really suffer much (offensive ability), without adding much in the way of utility. They're alright... T3.5, I'd say. Maybe swap some things out for conversational special abilities?

I think you might actually want to do some shuffling between the three rogue-y classes I reviewed here. The Rogue gets some Swashbuckler-y features (talky feats), the Slayer gets some Rouge-y features (Hide in Plain Sight), and the Swashbuckler gets... eh, he's good.

gadren
2016-01-21, 07:15 PM
Ze Rogue:

Trapfinding is... too big, I think. It throws the RNG off completely. Either trap DCs are set based on the Rogue and no-one without the feature can compete, in which case you might as well just bring back 3.5's "must have this class feature to enter" mechanic, or the trap DCs are set to general values and the Rogue pretty much always succeeds.
The three bonus feats from Fast Talk are wildly uneven. One gives you a unique, useful ability; one gives you +2 to three skills and one gives you +2 to two. Add that to the fact that you eventually get all three, and there really isn't a choice here.
Finesse Training: A nice little upgrade. I mean, I feel like you might as well make Dex to damage with light weapons the default for everyone, but this is good.
I like Saw it Coming and the free Dirty Trick feats. Fun and fitting.
Gifted seems unneccessary. Just give them more skill points if you want them to have more skills.
Combat Advantage seems like too much. You're basically guaranteeing sneak attacks with no effort. Maybe tone it down to something like "enemies threatened by one of your allies considered flat-footed against the first attack you make against them. This effect only applies once per enemy per encounter" or something along those lines. Or drop it-- it's not like getting Sneak Attack was terribly onerous to begin with.

It's probably T3. The free Dirty Tricking is the main thing pushing it above the uRogue-- that guy was already pretty dang good, but now he has a second set of tricks up his sleeve. Maybe at some point grant him an effectively full BAB for Dirty Tricking?

Slayer
I... didn't know they had a problem? But okay.

Full sneak attack seems unnecessary, on top of all the other improvements. (Also I never really liked having both sneak attack and studied target-- seems conceptually redundant, somehow, though studied target isn't enough bonus damage to stand alone)
Bypass Immunity is nice.
Hide in Plain Sight is nice, probably making these guys better stealth-rogues than the Rogue.
Vital Strike is a nice way of bridging that conceptual gap, I admit.
Stealthy... you already had points in stealth. I guarantee it.
I like Devastating Blow.
Astronomical Precision kind of comes out of nowhere-- suddenly you care about Int?
Quarry appears twice. You also get Improved and Greater Quarry at the same level.

You, I think, have a problem here: the Slayer is a better Rogue than the Rogue. He's better at fighting, better at sneaking, better at ambushing fighting. You need to cut some stuff back, especially on the damage side of things. Honestly? I think I'd drop Sneak Attack altogether, apart from Vital Strike. Crank up the bonus from Studied Target a bit to compensate-- maybe add Int to attack and damage, to give you a reason to have it from level 1? That way there's at least some mechanical space between the two classes, if not conceptual.

Swasbuckler
The Swashbuckler was already a great T3ish melee class, I was pretty sure. But okay.

Improved Disarm is flavorful if not overly useful
Extra Panache: Why? If you think they don't get enough panache, just increase the base amount to 1/2 level+Cha. Cleaner all around.
Steel Liver: Heh. Maybe also grant a bonus/immunity to "unwanted" effects of alcohol, just for flavor's sake.
Sly Flourish: Unnecessary. You're already doing +level with every hit, and probably also Piranha Strike. You don't need a second stat to damage.
Swashbuckler's Quickness: The first part is redundant-- you have a high Dex and Swashbuckler's Initiative-- and the second is too weak. Increase that speed bonus to a useful level, please.
Charismatic Gift: ...hmm, put my previous comments about Gifted Skills aside for now; I think I'm missing a houserule on these?
Duel: Given that you'll only be able to target a single enemy anyway, and can change them at well, uh... why not just call it Pounce? Actually, drop the charge altogether (it's not very swashbuckling) and just say you can make a full attack when using Spring Attack.
Uncanny Agility: I like.
Charisma: Probably not really necessary.
Double Duel: Will you ever use this?

Overall, I'd say you mostly boosted things that didn't really suffer much (offensive ability), without adding much in the way of utility. They're alright... T3.5, I'd say. Maybe swap some things out for conversational special abilities?

I think you might actually want to do some shuffling between the three rogue-y classes I reviewed here. The Rogue gets some Swashbuckler-y features (talky feats), the Slayer gets some Rouge-y features (Hide in Plain Sight), and the Swashbuckler gets... eh, he's good.

A quick note: I'm not necessarily saying they're right, but basically over on the minmax boards they were rating Slayer at tier 4, and unchained rogues and swashbucklers at tier 5 (and the original PF rogue is at high tier 6).
Their reasoning for such a low rating on the rogue is that 1)even though more creatures are sneak attackable, it is much harder to deliver multiple sneak attacks per round than it used to be, with flanking being the only reliable method at lower levels, and improved invis at higher levels. 2) because rogues are "locked" into finesse melee fighting, which is consider suboptimal, especially with a squishy class and 3) because of the changes to the skill and magic system which makes the rogue's strength with skills less great comparatively, since anyone can disarm traps and at-will detect magic is better for finding traps than perception
The reason for the lower tier rating on swashbuckler is action economy. They have a whole lot of of abilities that are swift or immediate actions, and since you can only use one swift action per round and immediate actions count as a swift action on your next turn, it ends up being a lot more lackluster in practice.

SO I was mostly trying to address that with my changes.
Also I was trying to pump their damage up a bit to compete with the casters... even with t1 and t2 casters gone, the t3 casters can still really leave the mundanes in the dust.
Also, I wanted rogues and swashbucklers to get a bonus to certain social skills since I made social skills class skills for everyone (for now).

Totema
2016-01-21, 08:55 PM
Just a reminder: You should put an OGL disclaimer page on your site, so you don't get an unfriendly copyright claim one day! :smallsmile:

gadren
2016-01-21, 09:01 PM
Just a reminder: You should put an OGL disclaimer page on your site, so you don't get an unfriendly copyright claim one day! :smallsmile:

I doubt I'm in any danger of that any time soon, you can't even find the site on Google yet.

gadren
2016-01-21, 09:26 PM
By the way, I believe I fixed the problem that caused the website to display weird on some computers/devices. Let me know if anyone still sees it all squished.

Grod_The_Giant
2016-01-21, 10:35 PM
The reason for the lower tier rating on swashbuckler is action economy. They have a whole lot of of abilities that are swift or immediate actions, and since you can only use one swift action per round and immediate actions count as a swift action on your next turn, it ends up being a lot more lackluster in practice.
I really don't agree? He might be T4, but no way in heck is he T5. He can do respectable damage (especially as a Rapid Shot thrower), has respectable skills and has respectable options for defense and alternate attacks.


Also I was trying to pump their damage up a bit to compete with the casters... even with t1 and t2 casters gone, the t3 casters can still really leave the mundanes in the dust.
My experience (mostly with 3.5, admittedly) is that mundanes will generally outdamage casters throwing around d6/level spells. Has that changed in Pathfinder?

Denomar
2016-01-21, 11:40 PM
My general overview is that these characters are no more versatile than the original versions of the classes. They certainly can do a Lot more damage then the original versions but simply pumping damage up the way you are doesn't mean that you are moving the classes up in tier.

It just means that you are playing rocket tag earlier.

gadren
2016-01-21, 11:45 PM
I really don't agree? He might be T4, but no way in heck is he T5. He can do respectable damage (especially as a Rapid Shot thrower), has respectable skills and has respectable options for defense and alternate attacks.


My experience (mostly with 3.5, admittedly) is that mundanes will generally outdamage casters throwing around d6/level spells. Has that changed in Pathfinder?

The gish classes like magus and warpriest definitely have a leg up on the mundanes in this regard. I think the magus especially, who can buff himself with spells ahead of time and mix multiple enhanced touch spells with a full attack all in the same turn.
And the various metamagic level reduction and enhancement options means that more "pure" offensive casters like the warmage are probably doing more than d6 per level, and they can do it to multiple enemies at once.

gadren
2016-01-21, 11:47 PM
My general overview is that these characters are no more versatile than the original versions of the classes. They certainly can do a Lot more damage then the original versions but simply pumping damage up the way you are doesn't mean that you are moving the classes up in tier.

It just means that you are playing rocket tag earlier.

You don't think any of them are any more versatile than before?

Denomar
2016-01-22, 12:27 PM
Not really?

taking the swashbuckler for example, pretty much every class ability they have leads to them doing ever more and more damage, but it can't do more diverse things than killing a guy super dead. In terms of the original tier list its mechanically most analagous to a warblade, but a warblade is tier 3 because of the edge case scenarios where his maneuvers help him to say, easily break down a door or use iron heart surge to prevent a tpk by a couple lucky harpies. I'm unclear on what a "gifted skill" is however.

The tier system was all about what character classes could simply Solve an Encounter. And how often they could do so. The Wizard is tier one because given enough time and preparation he can easily circumvent any situation.

When asked to bring the princess back to life, transport the large quantities of goods, sneak past the dragons guarding the vaults of Foreveria and identify some crucial aspect of the history of the Dread Star of Akathoulios the Swashbuckler offers to charm the pants off the other class that can do that.

gadren
2016-01-23, 06:35 PM
So, I've been contemplating this feedback for the past couple days before making changes, trying to decide the best way to go about changes.
I think that besides changing the mundane classes, I need to overhaul skills and skill tricks. Let tricks do more, improve the skill tricks from Complete Adventurer, add new skill tricks similar to the utility skill powers in 4e (that were comparable to the utility spells available at the same levels), and then give the mundane classes "free" skill tricks...

I'd already started down this path with the rules for this campaign, for example allowing Escape Artist to replicate Freedom of Movement and Concentration to replicate Mind Blank, but I should probably make sure every skill has something cool it can do, including stuff that aren't just copies of existing spells.