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Pinjata
2016-01-15, 12:50 PM
I have a concept for an NPC and I'd like your opinion on it.

There is a village with a poor part - sort of a slum, where poor folks live, drunkards and loosers with their vives and children.

One day, several men and women are killed, mostly in the slums, but also some in the good part of village.

It takes some weeks for PCs who are hired to research the situation to reach the village and another young man is killed during that time. Some villagers move out, but most stay.

PCs eventually catch a dark angel - Angel of mercy. He was summoned by prayers of all suffering children in the slums. Angel kills all who basically **** up their own lives and lives of their spouses and children. Also those, who will doso. After killings, those who are left always find a better life.

Angel is infallible and sees the future, also shows it to PCs.

What do you think of my idea and adittionaly, what would be right to do in this situation?

Flickerdart
2016-01-15, 01:08 PM
This seems like a pretty good ethical dilemma, actually. The angel is doing Good after a fashion - it is slaying tormentors and criminals (I assume it knows how to prioritize and goes after the worst people, not "merely" deadbeat drunks). It would work better if the angel also killed crooked landlords, merchants, and similar petty tyrants.

Consider also a more Good, non-murderous angel who merely transports the offenders to another part of the world, or terrifies them into behaving, or some other approach like that. Then it's bulletproof from a Good standpoint but definitely Chaotic.

On the other hand, you could explore the cosmic horror aspect of a prescient, powerful being born from the minds of children. Children who don't really understand things like death, justice, moderation, or (if they are young enough) anything more than "me" and "the world." Such a creature would intend to do good, but its methods would be incredibly cruel and disproportionate because it doesn't know anything the children also don't.

If the angel is naive enough (and in this case, it would be) then its prescience is useless. As long as a child is eventually better off, the angel has no reason not to keep murdering. A gang is threatening the family? Kill the gang. A rival gang from nearby swallows up the new free territory? Kill them too. The crooked mayor that takes a cut from the gangs starts investigating? Dead mayor. The king will eventually intervene? Hey, better kill him ahead of time just to be sure.

Oh, and the angel will also use its prescience for self-defense, which means the PCs need to die in case they interfere.

Geddy2112
2016-01-15, 01:11 PM
Mercy?

No, that is an avenger, an angel of justice. Hunting down and exterminating evil monsters is not even remotely merciful-there was no chance for these people to turn their lives around, the angel just killed them. When the children prayed for somebody to protect them, the avenger did not come with an olive branch, he put the monsters to the sword.

If the angel is infallible and can know the outcomes of events, then they are truly righteous and know this has to be done-that there are true evil monsters and the only way to bring good into the world is to end them. It is rarely/ever good to end life, unless it is truly unredeemably evil, and mortals are rarely/never in this category.

It is also dangerous waters to have infalliable omnipitance be accessible to the PC's, or then they are basically in predetermined campaign and set of events where their actions no longer matter. That sort of thing is also dangerous for mortals- pandora's box was shut in time to keep such power away from mortals, leaving hope.

What is the right thing to do in this situation? Well the angel probably would not kill the pc's unless they were true monsters, instead explain that it had to be done(although I don't agree killing mortals like that makes this angel so good) and try and escape. I think this is more of a devil or avenger, unless there are actually demons or other true evil creatures walking among humans that the angel is defeating.

Pinjata
2016-01-15, 01:25 PM
Neat.

Let's say angel can know only outcomes of events in this village that hurt people. (children pray for their mothers, grandparents, friends)

I was thinking of him killing people that mess up others' lives just before this starts happening (before marriage, birth of children, etc).

But just removing these people from the village, is an interesting idea, too.

Douche
2016-01-15, 02:37 PM
Angel is infallible and sees the future, also shows it to PCs.

How are you going to roleplay an infallible angel that sees the future? Are you infallible and/or able to see the future? Cuz I don't think you're capable of knowing all of your PCs actions before they do them. If anything, it's just going to make them think the angel is a pompous douche, especially when he turns out to be wrong.

And this doesn't really sound like any kind of society I would want to be a part of. Gives me the whole "big brother" vibe where people aren't being good or just out of the kindness of their hearts, but because they fear that the Angel of Mercy (death) will knock on their doors and kill them. That's hella lawful evil, dawg. Your PCs top priority should be to kill this monster.

Pinjata
2016-01-16, 05:04 AM
How are you going to roleplay an infallible angel that sees the future? Are you infallible and/or able to see the future? Cuz I don't think you're capable of knowing all of your PCs actions before they do them. If anything, it's just going to make them think the angel is a pompous douche, especially when he turns out to be wrong.

And this doesn't really sound like any kind of society I would want to be a part of. Gives me the whole "big brother" vibe where people aren't being good or just out of the kindness of their hearts, but because they fear that the Angel of Mercy (death) will knock on their doors and kill them. That's hella lawful evil, dawg. Your PCs top priority should be to kill this monster.
Good points. Thatswhy I think this is better: Angel can know only outcomes of events in this village that hurt people and are caused by villagers.

GrayDeath
2016-01-16, 02:43 PM
Interesting Idea, if done right.

Youa re on the right track in sharply limiting his omniscience me thinks.
Maybe add in "all Events directly resulting from his actions" (but not those caused by others observing and ... imitating him/her, or Forces outside the Village (Lord of the Area?) deciding the deaths are signs of an upcoming revolt and sending forces to end it before it hits its stride? Would be my go for some ethical dilemma on the Angels side).

Also if his icnarnation/being was really made by suffering children be sure that his appearance fits. he will in all likeliness look more like children would imagine an Angel of Justice/Protection of Children after all.

Surpriser
2016-01-16, 03:16 PM
Also if his icnarnation/being was really made by suffering children be sure that his appearance fits. he will in all likeliness look more like children would imagine an Angel of Justice/Protection of Children after all.

I would imagine him looking like a caring mother, protective sister or big brother, maybe even all of that interchangeably.
Just think of a kind, warmhearted lady telling the PCs that she had to brutally slaughter ("send away") that little child's father because he was just about to beat his family to cripples.

Also, I think it would be better to change his precognition powers to some sort of mind-/aura-reading, maybe coupled with some limited divination abilities. Of course, that does not mean that he can't be utterly convinced that what he is doing is the right thing and that events would have unfolded exactly they way he predicted.

Pinjata
2016-01-16, 06:04 PM
I just have to commend Surpriser. The caring mother as form is great idea.

NRSASD
2016-01-16, 06:09 PM
I like it!

It depends on how murky and gray you want the alignment system to be. If the angel is infallible and actually a servant of a higher power, there isn't much the PCs can do about it besides watching the events unfold and bringing some popcorn. I suppose you could have villains capture or manipulate it for nefarious purposes, but if it's truly good and omniscient it can dodge that.

I personally prefer that's it a construct of the children, as other posters have elaborated on. In addition to all of the other adventures/fallout that they've described, I've two more for the pile:

What happens to the children when they see a band of heroes take down their avenging angel?
How did the children create it? Is there another power at work here? Psionics, dream magic, ring of wishes, etc...?

@Pinjata: When you say "what would be right to do in this situation", could you clarify what you're looking for? Morally from a PC point of view? As a DM?

goto124
2016-01-17, 02:14 AM
Mercy?

No, that is an avenger, an angel of justice.

The angel can claim to be of mercy, and actually believe it.

It's far more interesting (and less likely to make the players wonder why you have a designated 'good' guy) if the angel(?) isn't outright good, just following its own morals blindly and has the wisdom of a child. It is made of children's prayers, no?

Pinjata
2016-01-17, 06:16 AM
First of all, PCs will have a chance of destroying the angel. metagame wise it will have a ton of hp, high AC, regeneration, flying, etheralness, but very little dmg potential. If they put an effort into it, they can bind it and destroy it.



What happens to the children when they see a band of heroes take down their avenging angel?
How did the children create it? Is there another power at work here? Psionics, dream magic, ring of wishes, etc...?

@Pinjata: When you say "what would be right to do in this situation", could you clarify what you're looking for? Morally from a PC point of view? As a DM?

I think children would be only remotely aware of this (plus I want to add some other people into the prayer that generated the spirit. Maybe suffering wife, a man, choked and broken by his mother from childhood. Not just kids. None o them prayed for angel and its deed, but collective unconcions brtought it into being)

Setting is filled with gods, magical creatures, etc and prayers have a very real effect on it. You can not really pray and summon things into reality if you plan it, but such things as mentioned can happen.

As fo my question - I wonder how should PCs act, what is morally most right to do?

Also, since you guys really got on this train (and I love it): I'd like to ask where would angel teleport these "baddies". What place would children deem as "far away" in their concepts? I think its also awesome if angel does not kill. Just has the lot o village drunkards and a few prominent folks (whose relatives called the PCs) whisked away.

Surpriser
2016-01-17, 07:27 AM
First of all, PCs will have a chance of destroying the angel. metagame wise it will have a ton of hp, high AC, regeneration, flying, etheralness, but very little dmg potential. If they put an effort into it, they can bind it and destroy it.
I can think of at least three ways to "get rid" of the angel:
- Kill him in combat: Likely the least interesting option, unless you add some twist to it - like the villagers who believe that he has saved them trying to protect him from the PCs.
- Convince him that either he is not needed or that what he is doing is wrong: Depending on how you want to portray him, this might be impossible. Another angle would be to convince the villagers that the angel does more harm than good, so that they stop praying to him (which might either rob him of his powers or make him disappear completely)
- Destroy the source of his power: Unless you want to have a case of spontaneous manifestation, there is likely some reason why the angel appeared in this village and not in any of the other ones. Be it an artifact, ritual, cult, spell, ...., the PCs could find and deal with it.


As fo my question - I wonder how should PCs act, what is morally most right to do?
Leave that for the PCs to decide. They could either decide that the angel really acts as a guardian, removing the "bad apples" from the village. Or they could decide that wishing someone dead is not really a reason for murder and oppose the angel. Of course, you should plan for either eventuality...

I think the adventure would be the most interesting if there is no obvious one right answer. Portray the angel as both compassionate, protective and utterly convinced of its actions and remorseless.


Also, since you guys really got on this train (and I love it): I'd like to ask where would angel teleport these "baddies". What place would children deem as "far away" in their concepts? I think its also awesome if angel does not kill. Just has the lot o village drunkards and a few prominent folks (whose relatives called the PCs) whisked away.
I think there should be a darker element in such a character. Simply teleporting them to another place makes the angel actually seem nice, which is what I would avoid. Plus, children don't distinguish between "dead" and "gone away". They would simply wish for whomever to disappear and the angel should not make such a distinction itself. If it teleports away bad guys, it probably does not care where they end up, which is most likely equivalent to killing them anyway.

goto124
2016-01-17, 08:22 AM
Leave that for the PCs to decide. [snip]

I think the adventure would be the most interesting if there is no obvious one right answer. Portray the angel as both compassionate, protective and utterly convinced of its actions and remorseless.

This is important. Don't use the angel(?) to channel your ideas of morality or something.

Pinjata
2016-01-17, 10:00 AM
This is important. Don't use the angel(?) to channel your ideas of morality or something.
Definitelly. But since this is more moral challenge then combat challnge, I'd like at least some guidelines on it.

JNAProductions
2016-01-17, 03:14 PM
Honestly, what's the moral thing depends on specifics. Who exactly is the angel killing/vanishing? Where do they vanish to? Why is this happening? What are the limits on the angel?

It also varies person to person.

Pinjata
2016-01-18, 06:08 AM
Honestly, what's the moral thing depends on specifics. Who exactly is the angel killing/vanishing? Where do they vanish to? Why is this happening? What are the limits on the angel?

It also varies person to person.

- Angel is vanishing people that will ruin other people. There is no other path for these people if they stay in the positions they are currently occupying
- Am still thinking on where they vanish. Some remote valley 1000 miles away?
- It is happening because people existed who ruined other peoples'/their childrens'/their spouses' lives
- Angel can be destroyed, angel can see the future of those he protects (children, spouses ...)

goto124
2016-01-18, 06:27 AM
Apologies, but 'see the future'? If the PCs do something you don't expect (which will happen, since you don't have the ability to see the future or read minds IRL), how can it hold up?

Why is 'seeing the future' even required? Why not just havw the angel respond to whatever happens?

Pinjata
2016-01-18, 10:00 AM
Apologies, but 'see the future'? If the PCs do something you don't expect (which will happen, since you don't have the ability to see the future or read minds IRL), how can it hold up?

Why is 'seeing the future' even required? Why not just havw the angel respond to whatever happens?

Angel only sees the future of villagers and ONLY when it comes to long-term abuse/destruction of a person. All else, like PCs burning down a village and killing everyone, is hidden from it.

Why not just have the angel respond to whatever happens - because it has a very narrow purpose of preventing long-term harm to people in village.

Surpriser
2016-01-18, 01:40 PM
Angel only sees the future of villagers and ONLY when it comes to long-term abuse/destruction of a person. All else, like PCs burning down a village and killing everyone, is hidden from it.

Why not just have the angel respond to whatever happens - because it has a very narrow purpose of preventing long-term harm to people in village.

Drop that - both the "seeing the future" and the "holy purpose" part.
The first one will be quite impossible to pull of and probably annoy your players (you can't really argue with someone who KNOWS he is right, as opposed to simply being utterly convinced of it)
The second one makes it entirely too clear what your own stance on the matter is - namely that the angel is actually doing good and you want the PCs to realize that.

This angle was created from the prayers and wishes of mistreated children (mostly, anyway) - he will neither be nice in his manners (except towards the villagers he protects) nor in his methods. And just as the children KNOW that their daddy is hurting them and want him to go away, so does the angel - and he doesn't care about putting them in a safe place (or even a single place at all - matching up all those organs to a single coherent place is such a bother).

EDIT: I just realized that the way I envision such an NPC might not be exactly what you want out of it.
So please tell us: Do you want this to be a likeable NPC? A good one?
Or do you want to place the players in a moral dilemma, where the "good" guy actually is not all that nice and very questionable in his methods?

Takewo
2016-01-18, 02:00 PM
Drop that - both the "seeing the future" and the "holy purpose" part.
The first one will be quite impossible to pull of and probably annoy your players (you can't really argue with someone who KNOWS he is right, as opposed to simply being utterly convinced of it)
The second one makes it entirely too clear what your own stance on the matter is - namely that the angel is actually doing good and you want the PCs to realize that.

I, on the other hand, think this seeing the future and having a purpose is what makes it a cool idea. Otherwise the creature is no different from any other random BBEG.

I pretty much like the idea as originally stated. Watered down version are... well, watered down.

What I thin is important, though, is making sure that there is a way to solve the situation. If I was game mastering, I would probably improvise, but that depends on your style. You know your players, make sure that the situation has a resolution, even if it's a bitter one, like slaughtering the children who created it.

goto124
2016-01-19, 05:00 AM
I, on the other hand, think this seeing the future and having a purpose is what makes it a cool idea. Otherwise the creature is no different from any other random BBEG.

It does have a purpose - protect the children. It just goes about it in a rather simplistic and childish fashion. We're not trying to treat this angel(?) as some 100% good and holy thing.

GrayDeath
2016-01-22, 04:29 PM
You might make him teleport them all onto a deserted, plantless Island in the Polar Ocean.
Not actually killing them himself, but reaching the same ends.
I would love my players faces when findingout msomething like that ^^



As for the Omniscience: I stand to my above statement.
Limit its Scope VERY strictly, and it can work beautifully.
And provide a moral dilemma AND powerful adversary in one.