Monk - Way of the Athletic Mind

[Keundt]

I'd like to get some feedback on this simple archetype idea.

Monk
Monastic Traditions
Way of the Athletic Mind

You are a healthy person. By developing an athletic body and state of mind, you have become more skilled and alert.

Bonus Proficiencies: When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiencies in any two skills of your choice from among Acrobatics, Athletics, Insight, Investigation, Perception, Performance, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth.

Steady Expertise: At 3rd level, and again at 6th, 11th, and 17th levels, choose one of your skill proficiencies, or if you were a Monk at 1st level (character), your proficiency in the type of artisan's tools or instrument you chose at 1st level. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make with your chosen proficiency.

[ji6]

I'd like to get some feedback on this simple archetype idea.

Monk
Monastic Traditions
Way of the Athletic Mind

You are a healthy person. By developing an athletic body and state of mind, you have become more skilled and alert.

Bonus Proficiencies: When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiencies in any two skills of your choice from among Acrobatics, Athletics, Insight, Investigation, Perception, Performance, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth.

Steady Expertise: At 3rd level, and again at 6th, 11th, and 17th levels, choose one of your skill proficiencies, or if you were a Monk at 1st level (character), your proficiency in the type of artisan's tools or instrument you chose at 1st level. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make with your chosen proficiency.

Something I want to ask is if you are a DM or a player. The reason I ask is because if you are a player and want this, there is not much a problem if your DM agrees and you tell the other players of your plan (what skills you are taking, so you do not eclipse them with surprise expertise). But if you are creating this for your players, I feel differently about it.

This statement may sound very harsh, but I think this honestly seems like a super boring archetype to play and very unrewarding for players. I also feel like archetypes help roleplay a lot, and this one would probably make it weirder to roleplay after a while. Also, as I hinted above, after a while you might start stepping on other player's toes with gaining expertise from a homebrew archetype like this one. I personally had a bad time when I made a ranger and someone in my party wound up gaining expertise in survival through their homebrew and completely eclipsed what I made my character to be good at. With an archetype like this, that surprise can be even more devastating since you could really push out someone's key character points. Despite this, I also think it seems lame if the only thing you get in your whole archetype is expertise in different skills. I mean, why play a monk if you want an archetype that only has skill bonuses? For the punching? I feel like picking a more monk-like rogue class (like the ninja rogue archetype from a few days ago on these forums, or various thug/brawler rogue archetypes) seems better in my opinion at that point.

Honestly, I just feel like it is difficult to see where a character with this archetype is heading or what they can do that seems fun or cool...and really what sets them apart and makes them badass in a unique way. I just feel like this monk wanted to be a punching rogue. I think if you wanted to make a skill-based monk, there should be like a ki-using skill buff like enhance ability, a way to meditate to gain a skill proficiency that you can change around every long rest, and other unique mechanics that feel more flavorful and fun.

[Keundt]

Something I want to ask is if you are a DM or a player. The reason I ask is because if you are a player and want this, there is not much a problem if your DM agrees and you tell the other players of your plan (what skills you are taking, so you do not eclipse them with surprise expertise). But if you are creating this for your players, I feel differently about it.

This statement may sound very harsh, but I think this honestly seems like a super boring archetype to play and very unrewarding for players. I also feel like archetypes help roleplay a lot, and this one would probably make it weirder to roleplay after a while. Also, as I hinted above, after a while you might start stepping on other player's toes with gaining expertise from a homebrew archetype like this one. I personally had a bad time when I made a ranger and someone in my party wound up gaining expertise in survival through their homebrew and completely eclipsed what I made my character to be good at. With an archetype like this, that surprise can be even more devastating since you could really push out someone's key character points. Despite this, I also think it seems lame if the only thing you get in your whole archetype is expertise in different skills. I mean, why play a monk if you want an archetype that only has skill bonuses? For the punching? I feel like picking a more monk-like rogue class (like the ninja rogue archetype from a few days ago on these forums, or various thug/brawler rogue archetypes) seems better in my opinion at that point.

Honestly, I just feel like it is difficult to see where a character with this archetype is heading or what they can do that seems fun or cool...and really what sets them apart and makes them badass in a unique way. I just feel like this monk wanted to be a punching rogue. I think if you wanted to make a skill-based monk, there should be like a ki-using skill buff like enhance ability, a way to meditate to gain a skill proficiency that you can change around every long rest, and other unique mechanics that feel more flavorful and fun.


I'm a player. To tell you the whole thing, we're doing a non magic campaign in the desert. Also, me and my DM actually agreed to replace the punching with my scimitar swings and use the monk dice for the bonus action strikes. It's a lot funner, tbh. Since we agreed on that part, I'm hesitant to go further and bring this topic up to the DM until I have decent feedback. He is aware of the archetype though, I think. I posted it on Reddit a few days ago, but quickly died out (did get about 20 upvotes though :D).

So my character isn't exactly monkish at all, he's just a Dex tank. I also am looking to get involved in parkour, and this is why I'm considering an expertise archetype, for acrobatics, etc. We wouldn't get farther than level 7, since we're having weekly sessions for the semester until April. By then, my expertise would be in acrobatics, Athletics and perception (to look for options).

Our campaign has a lot of roleplay, story and character development, and I could care less about open hand and shadow (elements is not compatible with the campaign).

Magic is saved for the major bosses. It's a new concept to our characters.

Also, I'm a little worried that I'll be outclassed by one of our bards (2) who plans to expertise his acrobatics (I have 18 Dex though). I mean, we're going to need the skill to survive, I understand, but at level 5 I don't think I'll be the one doing the gymnastics anymore. We're at level 2 atm. Passed our first season last week. This DM usually makes sure that everyone is level 2 at the second session.

Anyways, is all this okay? And is it okay that the bard outclasses others in their main skill? Especially since his abilities are modified to not be magic-based, should he have some benefits over others?

[ji6]

I'm a player. To tell you the whole thing, we're doing a non magic campaign in the desert. Also, me and my DM actually agreed to replace the punching with my scimitar swings and use the monk dice for the bonus action strikes. It's a lot funner, tbh. Since we agreed on that part, I'm hesitant to go further and bring this topic up to the DM until I have decent feedback. He is aware of the archetype though, I think. I posted it on Reddit a few days ago, but quickly died out (did get about 20 upvotes though :D).

Alright, I can understand that a bit. I tend to be hesitant with DMs after requesting stuff too, although they tend to wish I just talked about it sooner :P.


So my character isn't exactly monkish at all, he's just a Dex tank. I also am looking to get involved in parkour, and this is why I'm considering an expertise archetype, for acrobatics, etc. We wouldn't get farther than level 7, since we're having weekly sessions for the semester until April. By then, my expertise would be in acrobatics, Athletics and perception (to look for options).

See, if you want to parkour, I feel like making an ability to make you better at that seems more logical. Rather than this whole expertise stuff over a bunch of levels, you could tailor one or two features to deal specifically with that.

For example, consider the following feature deriving from the dwarf racial feature Stonecunning.

When you take this archetype at 3rd level, you flow past obstacles that would hinder others. When you make a check related to parkour, you are considered proficient in the check and add double your proficiency bonus to the check, instead of your normal proficiency modifier.

Basically, this type of feature is a precise situation so it is not too bad to just get all the bonuses at once without expertise. It would not step in the bard's territory of expertise in those skills as you cannot do everything as well as the bard, but you can probably parkour better than him. Likely, being more precise in what is considered parkour is a good idea, but this is more so just a general idea I am trying to get across: give specific benefits that are closer to what you want and unite them with a common theme. I mean, stealing Second-Story Work and shoving it as your 3rd level feature Perhaps something like Way of the Urbanite or Way of the Unchained makes a lot of sense, or something else. But if you want to parkour well, just make that the feature rather than the round-about way of expertise. Then, you have a bunch of fun features instead of slowly building up to what you want.


Our campaign has a lot of roleplay, story and character development, and I could care less about open hand and shadow (elements is not compatible with the campaign).

Yeah, I can understand those two being somewhat unappealing. I honestly like the Death Monk from SCAG a bit better, although it is balanced weird.


Also, I'm a little worried that I'll be outclassed by one of our bards (2) who plans to expertise his acrobatics (I have 18 Dex though). I mean, we're going to need the skill to survive, I understand, but at level 5 I don't think I'll be the one doing the gymnastics anymore. We're at level 2 atm. Passed our first season last week. This DM usually makes sure that everyone is level 2 at the second session.

Anyways, is all this okay? And is it okay that the bard outclasses others in their main skill? Especially since his abilities are modified to not be magic-based, should he have some benefits over others?

I mean, that is the bard and rogues thing in 5e. The thing is, bards are (as one of their features suggests) Jack-of-all-trades. I think the main trick is to try to get specific benefits you like. If I were you, I would make a monk (maybe "way of the unchained" or something) kinda like the following from what you said. 3rd level gets the double proficiency parkour ability, 6th level gets something to spend a ki point as bonus action to get advantage on Dexterity (acrobatics) rolls until the end of your turn, 11th level get something to ignore difficult terrain and opportunity attacks for 2 ki bonus action (i.e. disengage+ignore difficult terrain for 2 ki points), 17th level to do something badass (maybe once per long rest ethereal for one round, idk). The above makes you pretty good at breaking grapples (important for a dex tank), god-like at parkour, highly mobile even on difficult terrain, and then ethereal at levels you would probably never reach but would be cool if you did. I just think that style of progression would be more fun and also seems fairly logical for roleplaying. Plus, then you do not have to worry about the bard and you having fights over skill capabilities, you can get advantage & double proficiency for a lot of parkour stuff. Meanwhile, he can have his moment to shine on other moments with his expertise.

[Keundt]

Alright, I can understand that a bit. I tend to be hesitant with DMs after requesting stuff too, although they tend to wish I just talked about it sooner :P.



See, if you want to parkour, I feel like making an ability to make you better at that seems more logical. Rather than this whole expertise stuff over a bunch of levels, you could tailor one or two features to deal specifically with that.

For example, consider the following feature deriving from the dwarf racial feature Stonecunning.

When you take this archetype at 3rd level, you flow past obstacles that would hinder others. When you make a check related to parkour, you are considered proficient in the check and add double your proficiency bonus to the check, instead of your normal proficiency modifier.

Basically, this type of feature is a precise situation so it is not too bad to just get all the bonuses at once without expertise. It would not step in the bard's territory of expertise in those skills as you cannot do everything as well as the bard, but you can probably parkour better than him. Likely, being more precise in what is considered parkour is a good idea, but this is more so just a general idea I am trying to get across: give specific benefits that are closer to what you want and unite them with a common theme. I mean, stealing Second-Story Work and shoving it as your 3rd level feature Perhaps something like Way of the Urbanite or Way of the Unchained makes a lot of sense, or something else. But if you want to parkour well, just make that the feature rather than the round-about way of expertise. Then, you have a bunch of fun features instead of slowly building up to what you want.



Yeah, I can understand those two being somewhat unappealing. I honestly like the Death Monk from SCAG a bit better, although it is balanced weird.



I mean, that is the bard and rogues thing in 5e. The thing is, bards are (as one of their features suggests) Jack-of-all-trades. I think the main trick is to try to get specific benefits you like. If I were you, I would make a monk (maybe "way of the unchained" or something) kinda like the following from what you said. 3rd level gets the double proficiency parkour ability, 6th level gets something to spend a ki point as bonus action to get advantage on Dexterity (acrobatics) rolls until the end of your turn, 11th level get something to ignore difficult terrain and opportunity attacks for 2 ki bonus action (i.e. disengage+ignore difficult terrain for 2 ki points), 17th level to do something badass (maybe once per long rest ethereal for one round, idk). The above makes you pretty good at breaking grapples (important for a dex tank), god-like at parkour, highly mobile even on difficult terrain, and then ethereal at levels you would probably never reach but would be cool if you did. I just think that style of progression would be more fun and also seems fairly logical for roleplaying. Plus, then you do not have to worry about the bard and you having fights over skill capabilities, you can get advantage & double proficiency for a lot of parkour stuff. Meanwhile, he can have his moment to shine on other moments with his expertise.

These are nice suggestions. There should be a Ki ability, too. To summarize, I'd say that parkour involves running, jumping, climbing, maneuvering, and descending/landing (and maybe crashing through objects like windows, since it's D&D). Not sure what I'm missing. These could count as athletics checks for some DMs, but I guess it doesn't matter for this archetype.

I have another idea, though. It sounds weird, but what if you could spend 1 Ki point (or once per short rest) to gain double proficiency in Athletics and/or Acrobatics checks for 10 minutes? Sort of like a parkour mode, to dumb things down a bit. Then maybe for 6th level, and check made during this mode can have advantage for 1 more Ki point? 10 minutes seems bad late game, so 11th level could let you spend 1 Ki point to increase the duration by 10 minutes, should you need it (unless you can do this at 3rd level).

Also, there's the "climbing doesn't halve your movement speed" feature that other classes get. Should that be considered, too?

So here's another revision (typing as I go)

Lv.3: Parkour/Freerunning: When you make a roll to jump, climb, maneuver, crash through an object while running or falling, and to safely descend or land, you are considered proficient and may double your proficiency bonus while making the roll.

Lv.6: Climbing doesn't half your movement speed.

Lv.11: Improved Step of the Wind: When you use Step of the Wind to Dash or Disengage, you can spend 1 more Ki point to also ignore difficult terrain.

Lv.17: You may spend 1 Ki point to gain advantage on any Acrobatics or Athletics check, or any check made through while freerunning.

[PoeticDwarf]

This is pretty boring. Give it on third level 2 skills (expertise in them ?) and after that some cool stuff with ki

[ji6]

words.

I am on my phone and cannot write a detailed response at the moment, but I will when I have time later today.


This is pretty boring. Give it on third level 2 skills (expertise in them ?) and after that some cool stuff with ki

I believe you are responding to the initial post. You should read the post above yours instead.

[PoeticDwarf]

I believe you are responding to the initial post. You should read the post above yours instead.

I see, thanks, I don't read everything. Now I think the subclass is too situational and weak. "-"