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Douche
2016-02-01, 08:21 AM
Just out of curiosity... This isn't something I see discussed often on this board, as PvP is generally frowned upon, but let's say you were doing a 1-shot where everyone builds characters specifically for the purpose of PvP. No roleplay, no flavor, no need to gimp yourself because something fits the character thematically.

Let's say you make a level 12 character. Multi-classing allowed. 1 uncommon magic item. Gladiator style tournament with 16 people (4 rounds). 1 hour rest in between each match, long rest before the finals. (but a full heal, so your health is always at max at the start of each fight) (Oh, and 27 point buy to keep things balanced) You only have 10 minutes before the match to pre-buff.

What character would you make?

Edit: In case it is relevant, we'll say this is the arena.
http://wowservices.synthasite.com/resources/arena-wow-tf2.jpg

More developments have arrived on the arena as the topic provided a need for them. These are my elaborations.


Maybe you can't see the spoiler in the OP or the image won't load. Here's the link by itself. Alternatively, you can google image search "WoW arena" and it should be the first result.

http://wowservices.synthasite.com/resources/arena-wow-tf2.jpg

It's a square arena, floor is covered in sand. There are 2 gates at opposite corners of the room. There is a bridge going across the center of the arena (at a 90 degree angle from the gate you start in), with 2 ramps on either side. Under the bridge are 2 stone pillars (going lengthwise) and perpendicular to those 2 are 2 more pillars, so that the very middle of the arena has a circle of 4 pillars. (There's also some grates on the floor but they really do nothing anyway so ignore those)

Also, fyi, to start - both contenders start from their respective gates on either side, so you know exactly where they are when the match starts. You can cast buffs, shapeshift, and such in there before the match starts. That's how WoW does it so I see no reason that this fight shouldn't.


Oh, jeez... I dunno.. I've never been good at determining size in a video game. Like when a spell says it has a range of 40 yards, I'm just like "well, I suppose I'll just keep running towards my enemy til you let me cast this!"

Anyway, for the sake of the discussion, lets say its 35 feet on each side, and the bridge is 10 feet wide. So 80'x80'

RickAllison
2016-02-01, 08:23 AM
Just out of curiosity... This isn't something I see discussed often on this board, as PvP is generally frowned upon, but let's say you were doing a 1-shot where everyone builds characters specifically for the purpose of PvP. No roleplay, no flavor, no need to gimp yourself because something fits the character thematically.

Let's say you make a level 12 character. Multi-classing allowed. 1 uncommon magic item. Gladiator style tournament with 16 people (4 rounds). 1 hour rest in between each match, long rest before the finals.

What character would you make?

Shadow Monk 6/Anything. Shadow Walk into the audience and get the hell out of there! Cheap, but perhaps the best way to survive.

Corran
2016-02-01, 09:00 AM
Human (variant) Warlock 7 (edited: fey, pact of the blade)/ Fighter 3 (battlemaster)/ Rogue 2.
Resilient con and GWM.
STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 13.
Devil's sight, thirsting blade and one more.
Precise strike, riposte, and one more.
Darkness and dimension door and counterspell are essential to this build. Edited: also greater invisibility to use instead of darkness, for when going against lame warlocks with devil's sight :smalltongue:
Expertise in stealth and one more (possibly athletics, edited: or mybe perception, as I see many go with invisibility).
Use greatswod or maul.

Cast darkness (edit: gr invisibility) and cunning action hide in the first round, move closer to enemy. Once I can engage, I start attacking him with advantage (and twice per round, due to thirsting balde), using GWM for -5/+10, and I always use my bonus action to hide, except perhaps if I crit, in which case I can make one more attack. If my stealth check was not good enough (+8 stealth), I use my reaction to attack him with riposte and GWM, again with advantage, if he misses me me (he attacks me at disadvanate, my AC is 16, or 17 with mariner or defense). Precise will help me turn some misses into hits, and with GWM in play that is a big deal. Counterspell any attempts to dispel my darkness (if I have not used my 2nd slot for dimension door). Resilient con will help me make my concentration saves in the rare occassions I get hit.
Everything recharges on a short rest and thus I do not lose any steam after fights.

Edit (Anti-air defense): Grab a longbow or agonizing blast for EB (3 blasts at this level), to attack flying ranged archers, from inside the darkness, they practically have to guess your position and you attack them with advantage. Finally, they will decide to come to you. Then chop them as suggested above.

Tiefling can work well with the above strategy (though I prefer variant human for resilient con), as it gives me an extra casting of darkness, thus allowing me to use my spell slots for all of darkness, dimension door and counterspell, if I am figthing against a ranged pansy that runs away and that has also the capability to dispel my darkness.

Edit (gr invisibility > darkness): Actually, gr invisibility works much better than darkness, as it makes the enemy guess hard where I am if he wants to drop an AoE damage spell.


Alternatively, a mobile archer or a poleram master sentinel could do well, though each of these builds has weaknesses. I would probably stick with my first thought.

Edit (winged boots/or another item that gives flying speed and invisibility): For item maybe winged boots to avoid tremorsense from detecting me, thus probably only worrying about truesight from true seeing. Also, for cunning builds that wait out my gr invisibility to wear off, have invisibility be one of my known spells, cast it on self (move behind cover to avoid counterspelling) and fly-hide somewhere where you take a short rest to regain spell slots and practically everything spent, as all my resources recharge on short rests. One with the shadows invocation can help in that respect. Practically reseting the encounter until the enemy decides to fight. Only true weakness is against spellcasters with access to true seeing, but that means they must have not already expended their 6th level slot, and that they must know or have prepared this spell. In this case just try to chop them before you die, you will probably die, but it is an extremelly situational scenario. I can also revert back to darkness and try to close in before they can fireball me to death. Hopefully resilient can help with the concentration saves. Tieflinf with fore resistance and the extra casting of darkness now seem more favourable. Maybe I will have to sacrifice my 3rd fighter levels and my maneuvres in iredr to go tiefling and still get resilient by going warlock 8 instead of fighter 3, but that is a slipery slope, if I taylor towards one situation I leave myself open to another. In the end I will have to estimate how probable is one scenario vs another and make some hrd decisions regarding some very small yet very important details. Bah, I leave it as it is and stop editing. Mychances are good enough for my liking.

ps: Queue music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qqd6T_A9LY

Douche
2016-02-01, 09:15 AM
Cast darkness and cunning action hide in the first round, move closer to enemy. Once I can engage, I start attacking him with advantage (and twice per round, due to thirsting balde), using GWM for -5/+10, and I always use my bonus action to hide, except perhaps if I crit, in which case I can make one more attack. If my stealth check was not good enough (+8 stealth), I use my reaction to attack him with riposte and GWM, again with advantage, if he actually manages to hit me (he attacks me at disadvanate). Precise will help me turn some misses into hits, and with GWM in play that is a big deal. Counterspell any attempts to dispel my darkness (if I have not used my 2nd slot for dimension door). Resilient con will help me make my concentration saves in the rare occassions I get hit.
Everything recharges on a short rest and thus I do not lose any steam after fights.

Tiefling can work well with the above strategy (though I prefer variant human for resilient con), as it gives me an extra casting of darkness, thus allowing me to use my spell slots for all of darkness, dimension door and counterspell, if I am figthing against a ranged pansy that runs away and that has also the capability to dispel my darkness.


Do you think it's wise to rely that much on darkness? I feel like everyone is going to go warlock and take devil's sight.

Also, what's your magic item gonna be?

Oramac
2016-02-01, 09:29 AM
Being a WoW player myself, I have to ask: is this a 3v3 match? 2v2? Or 1v1? That would change the build quite a lot.

Assuming a 1v1, this is probably what I would do:

Race: Hill Dwarf

Battlemaster 5 / Swashbuckler 3 / Life Cleric 4.

Take Trip Attack, Precise Strike, and Riposte for Maneuvers, use the Fancy Footwork Swashbuckler ability to move away without AoO's after making two attacks, Cunning Action to hide, and the Cleric stuff to heal/buff when/if needed.

Use a Vorpal Scimitar and shield for good damage, higher AC, and a chance to cut off the enemies head, ending the fight.

Stats: 8, 15, 15, 8, 15, 8.

Take the Lucky Feat with the second ASI, and bump Dex/Con with the first.

Corran
2016-02-01, 09:36 AM
Do you think it's wise to rely that much on darkness? I feel like everyone is going to go warlock and take devil's sight. True. Go fey and add greater invisibility to the spell list and chop those other lame copy cuts. Will edit my initial post. Only problem now is true seeing, but that is a very acceptable risk imo.


Also, what's your magic item gonna be? No idea I am afraid, I avoid looking at magic items, dont want them to influence my take on classes or tempt me to make characters that rely too much on them.

Finieous
2016-02-01, 09:39 AM
Guess I'd go Aarakocra Moon Druid. I'm AFB, but I believe my elemental forms refresh for every fight, so I can spend most of my time earth gliding and tremorsensing, but can also fly around and cast spells when I feel like it. Moon Druid seems pretty hard to beat at this level.

Oramac
2016-02-01, 09:57 AM
Guess I'd go Aarakocra Moon Druid. I'm AFB, but I believe my elemental forms refresh for every fight, so I can spend most of my time earth gliding and tremorsensing, but can also fly around and cast spells when I feel like it. Moon Druid seems pretty hard to beat at this level.

Line of sight under the bridge and around the pillars kinda negates flight.

Finieous
2016-02-01, 10:03 AM
Line of sight under the bridge and around the pillars kinda negates flight.

I can't see the map for some reason, but I'd be pretty surprised if 60 ft. flying speed and Mobile couldn't be used effectively.

Oramac
2016-02-01, 10:12 AM
I can't see the map for some reason, but I'd be pretty surprised if 60 ft. flying speed and Mobile couldn't be used effectively.

Hmm.. A good point. I suppose that's why combat flight isn't allowed in WoW. :P

Finieous
2016-02-01, 10:14 AM
Hmm.. A good point. I suppose that's why combat flight isn't allowed in WoW. :P

Especially on a ranged attacker or spellcaster. I just have to fly down and get a peek at you, and then fly back up. In this case, the LOS issues you mention likely work to my advantage. Plus, I don't need LOS to fly around and summon wolfpacks and fairy swarms to torment you. ;)

Citan
2016-02-01, 10:17 AM
Hi!

Thanks for opening this thread, I love this kind of challenge.
No easy though, I'm not THAT experienced with D&d 5e. :)

My tries
Half-Elf
Paladin Ancients 7
Warlock 5.


Considering that anything that UA is viable (which is far-stretched, no doubt here)
Warlock 3 / Fighter 2 / Shadow Sorcerer 7.

Start Fighter for proficiencies, Close Quarter Shooters and Action Surge, take Warlock Chain for "sharing magic resistance" familiar, as well as Agonizing Repelling Blast.
Shadow Sorcerer is great here: good spell selection, metamagic (Quicken, Heightened), "stand on CON save" and Hound.

Cast Blur when needed, wield a Shield.

Standard approach would be (as long as you can directly engage your target):
Action surge > Hex (bonus) Eldricht Blast (surge) + Eldricht Blast (normal) + Eldricht Blast (quicken).

If you feel a more subtle approach may be better, use action surge to invoke the Hound then cast Bestow Curse or any other useful debuff depending on what you guess the enemy is good at.

Or cast quicken Greater Invisibility then Hide and plan your next move... ;)

Big problem here is starting first, since you're a squishy AND you need to see your target to assign the hound. So Alert feat is a given. Then upping CHA at least once to get 18.
Considering the heavy multiclass, the only option is going Variant Human (otherwise, Half-Elf would have been great choices, with Aarakocra as a second because fly+invisible can compensate lesser chance to hit).
Starting stats: STR 8, DEX 14, CON 15 (+1), INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15 (+1), feat: Alert, skill: Stealth. Use the ASI to get CHA to 18.



Otherwise, going plain Moon Druid 12 may be fun too. Dump your physical stats hard, cast Conjure Animals (or higher) then transform into a Earth Elemental in the first turn.
Use the feats to get Alert, Resilient (Constitution) and any third. Lucky would be great so you can swap a good roll for Initiative when you really need it.
You'll have enough slots to use similar strategy each fight, in addition to decent saves overall and healing in Wild Shape.

EDIT: Propositions made considering a 1v1 obviously (although plain Moon Druid is great in team also, especially with a Paladin friend). Also, I have no knowledge about magic items and no time to look into its for now.

PoeticDwarf
2016-02-01, 10:25 AM
I wouldn't go for classic warlock. I'd take 11 levels in fighter arcane trickster and 1 in any cleric. Not too strong but I think it works..
Alternative valor bard 10. Just fire shield, and sanctuary steal for magic secrets and 2 warlock for strong ranged, hellish rebuke and armor if agaathys. Works strong. With tiefling you could even go darkness for very strong in combat

RulesJD
2016-02-01, 10:44 AM
I'm sorry but if you're talking level 12, a Wizard is going to trump all. The level 5 and above Wizard spells are simply too powerful. Can debate whether Abjuration, Divination, or Evocation will be stronger, but given the short rest/long rest constraints I would go with Abjuration for the +proficiency to Counterspell and the ability to ritual the Abjuration ward back up. Evocation would be nice for the Magic Missile + Counterspell cheese of stupid high damage with Magic Missile, but honestly there's better ways of ending a fight.

Contingency would of course be cast with Greater Invisibility (can't counterspell what you can't see) or a Resilient Sphere. After the first round presumably I could size up the competition and decide what to slot in it after the short rest Arcane Recovery for Contingency.

After that it's a matter of Wall of Forcing the competition in place and then just doing whatever you want. Alternatively, Animate Objects -> 10 tiny objects. Will hit hard enough to wreck any concentration and each get opportunity attacks (if they try to move closer to the Wizard) even through Darkness because of their Blindsight.

For fights where I didn't feel like wasting a 5th level slot to auto-win, I would Conjure Minor Elementals and summon fire mephits. Each casts Heat Metal on the armor & weapon.

Then of course there's the ultimate cheese of Rope Trick and poking out to blast the enemy. Phantasmal Force against any non-Int based class will be ruinous and give me plenty of time to get non-concentration buffs up for particularly well built classes (Mirror Image + Blink).

Sir cryosin
2016-02-01, 11:01 AM
Shadow monk 6 fightet 2 warlock rest

Finieous
2016-02-01, 11:16 AM
I'm sorry but if you're talking level 12, a Wizard is going to trump all. The level 5 and above Wizard spells are simply too powerful.


Well, you've got 2 5th-level spells, 1 6th-level spell, and four fights before you get a long rest. You can recover 1 5th-level spell between fights.



Contingency would of course be cast with Greater Invisibility (can't counterspell what you can't see) or a Resilient Sphere.


Greater Invisibility is one minute duration. Easy to wait out in earth glide, though I've also got tremorsense.



After the first round presumably I could size up the competition and decide what to slot in it after the short rest Arcane Recovery for Contingency.


Contingency is 6th level, isn't it? Can't recover more than a 5th level spell, I believe.



After that it's a matter of Wall of Forcing the competition in place and then just doing whatever you want. Alternatively, Animate Objects -> 10 tiny objects.


Only lasts a minute.



For fights where I didn't feel like wasting a 5th level slot to auto-win, I would Conjure Minor Elementals and summon fire mephits. Each casts Heat Metal on the armor & weapon.


Your mephits can't burrow or earth glide and I'm not wearing any metal.



Then of course there's the ultimate cheese of Rope Trick and poking out to blast the enemy. Phantasmal Force against any non-Int based class will be ruinous and give me plenty of time to get non-concentration buffs up for particularly well built classes (Mirror Image + Blink).

Nothing in the rope trick spell suggests you can "poke out" and cast spells. Guess we'd need a DM ruling on that. Anyway, only lasts an hour. It's gonna be a boring fight, but I doubt you can win. If you did somehow, I'm sure you'd lose the next one because I'd drain your slots.

RulesJD
2016-02-01, 11:46 AM
Well, you've got 2 5th-level spells, 1 6th-level spell, and four fights before you get a long rest. You can recover 1 5th-level spell between fights.



Greater Invisibility is one minute duration. Easy to wait out in earth glide.



Contingency is 6th level, isn't it? Can't recover more than a 5th level spell, I believe.



Only lasts a minute.



Your mephits can't burrow or earth glide and I'm not wearing any metal.



Nothing in the rope trick spell suggests you can "poke out" and cast spells. Guess we'd need a DM ruling on that. Anyway, only lasts an hour. It's gonna be a boring fight, but I doubt you can win. If you did somehow, I'm sure you'd lose the next one because I'd drain your slots.

1. Arcane Recovery lets you recover up to a 6th level slot, so no, I'm good to go there.

2. Greater Invis is 1 minute, Wall of Force is 10 minutes. Wall of Force can be a complete sphere, trapping you inside while I buff up. If I start the match and see I'm facing a druid, just Wall of Force a platform up in the air and then Dimension Door up there. Mold Earth to make myself a nice non-concentration elevated platform and wait you out. Soon as you appear -> Wall of Force in an upside-down half-dome that you can't burrow back under. You can burn a shape change to fly out but then you can't Earthglide anymore and bye bye druid.

3. Alternatively, Conjure Elemental -> Earth Elemental. I have one that's equal to you and can follow you down into the earth. Same thing with the Mold Earth -> 5ft platform that doesn't have enough earth for you to Earth Glide through.

4. As an Abjuration Wizard I have a 17hp shield. Your average damage in a round will be 28 if both hit (highly unlikely with Shield + Mage Armor).

5. If you literally want to just dive down for 1 hour to avoid my Conjured Elemental, I'll just wait until you're one hour down, then start casting Glyph of Warding -> Inverted Magic Circle. Trigger on you being within 10ft of my elevated platform. If you try to get within melee range, you're trapped for an hour and can't do anything until you shapechange out (which means you're dead) or I kill your Earth Elemental form within 1 hour, which I'm pretty sure I can managed with cantrips.

There's more fun things I could do with a stuck Earth Elemental of course. Planar Binding comes to mind, or Magic Jar.

You're absolutely right that a Druid would be incredibly powerful in this competition because of the rules on short/long rest. But the Wizard has way too much available (17 prepared spells = lots of leeway). With that said, most people don't know the spells or rules well enough to think about them.

Douche
2016-02-01, 12:07 PM
1. Arcane Recovery lets you recover up to a 6th level slot, so no, I'm good to go there.

2. Greater Invis is 1 minute, Wall of Force is 10 minutes. Wall of Force can be a complete sphere, trapping you inside while I buff up. If I start the match and see I'm facing a druid, just Wall of Force a platform up in the air and then Dimension Door up there. Mold Earth to make myself a nice non-concentration elevated platform and wait you out. Soon as you appear -> Wall of Force in an upside-down half-dome that you can't burrow back under. You can burn a shape change to fly out but then you can't Earthglide anymore and bye bye druid.

3. Alternatively, Conjure Elemental -> Earth Elemental. I have one that's equal to you and can follow you down into the earth. Same thing with the Mold Earth -> 5ft platform that doesn't have enough earth for you to Earth Glide through.

4. As an Abjuration Wizard I have a 17hp shield. Your average damage in a round will be 28 if both hit (highly unlikely with Shield + Mage Armor).

5. If you literally want to just dive down for 1 hour to avoid my Conjured Elemental, I'll just wait until you're one hour down, then start casting Glyph of Warding -> Inverted Magic Circle. Trigger on you being within 10ft of my elevated platform. If you try to get within melee range, you're trapped for an hour and can't do anything until you shapechange out (which means you're dead) or I kill your Earth Elemental form within 1 hour, which I'm pretty sure I can managed with cantrips.

There's more fun things I could do with a stuck Earth Elemental of course. Planar Binding comes to mind, or Magic Jar.

You're absolutely right that a Druid would be incredibly powerful in this competition because of the rules on short/long rest. But the Wizard has way too much available (17 prepared spells = lots of leeway). With that said, most people don't know the spells or rules well enough to think about them.

While I like the discussion on how a battle between the two of you would play out, I'd prefer if you were realistic in what you would have prepared, and how you could carry that through to the finals - as opposed to killing one druid. I'm pretty sure you'd run out of spells by the time you fight your third druid (as that seems pretty popular so far), or a warlock hiding in darkness with a magic resistance familiar.

I'm going to say you only get the amount of spells that you learn per level up, no writing down spells out of other spellbooks.

Corran
2016-02-01, 12:11 PM
I'm going to say you only get the amount of spells that you learn per level up, no writing down spells out of other spellbooks.
That is a HUGE restriction. This tournament just became unfriendly to wizards (I am not saying a wizard cannot dominate it, only that he will have a harder time now, with this restriction).

Finieous
2016-02-01, 12:12 PM
1. Arcane Recovery lets you recover up to a 6th level slot, so no, I'm good to go there.


Must be an error in the SRD. Says "none of the slots can be 6th level or higher" right there on page 53.



2. Greater Invis is 1 minute, Wall of Force is 10 minutes. Wall of Force can be a complete sphere, trapping you inside while I buff up. If I start the match and see I'm facing a druid, just Wall of Force a platform up in the air and then Dimension Door up there. Mold Earth to make myself a nice non-concentration elevated platform and wait you out. Soon as you appear -> Wall of Force in an upside-down half-dome that you can't burrow back under. You can burn a shape change to fly out but then you can't Earthglide anymore and bye bye druid.


So that's both your 5th level slots on Wall of Force. The bowl is nice and I guess you can force me into it, even if I'm just poking out of the ground a little, but I can just climb out, can't I? I'm Large and Str +5. And of course that assumes you see me when I come up. I can come up and take a look anywhere.

As for Mold Earth, is that Move Earth, the 6th-level spell? So you've used both 5th-level slots and your 6th-level slot.



3. Alternatively, Conjure Elemental -> Earth Elemental. I have one that's equal to you and can follow you down into the earth. Same thing with the Mold Earth -> 5ft platform that doesn't have enough earth for you to Earth Glide through.


So that's Conjure Elemental instead of one of the Walls of Force? Okay. I'm Mobile so I'll just run away from him until he disappears.



4. As an Abjuration Wizard I have a 17hp shield. Your average damage in a round will be 28 if both hit (highly unlikely with Shield + Mage Armor).


Yeah, it'll be boring. If I can bait you into wasting your spell slots on walls, conjures, earth pillars, shields, buffs, etc., I'd likely go behind a pillar, change into druid form, and summon eight pixies to polymorph you into a newt. Kinda like your magma mephit trick, but with polymorph instead of heat metal. :smallbiggrin:



5. If you literally want to just dive down for 1 hour to avoid my Conjured Elemental, I'll just wait until you're one hour down, then start casting Glyph of Warding -> Inverted Magic Circle.


I can outrun your elemental and still check in on you from time to time. I can just swim around in circles under the surface and breach now and again like a stony dolphin. But your earth elemental is concentration, anyway, so you can't cast any extended spells while he's chasing me. You can't conjure him if you're doing your earth pillar thing, either.



You're absolutely right that a Druid would be incredibly powerful in this competition because of the rules on short/long rest. But the Wizard has way too much available (17 prepared spells = lots of leeway). With that said, most people don't know the spells or rules well enough to think about them.

Seventeen prepared spells is a lot, but I can stay in elemental form for six hours. And if you use those slots and somehow win, like I said, you lose the next round.

PoeticDwarf
2016-02-01, 12:19 PM
I'm sorry but if you're talking level 12, a Wizard is going to trump all. The level 5 and above Wizard spells are simply too powerful. Can debate whether Abjuration, Divination, or Evocation will be stronger, but given the short rest/long rest constraints I would go with Abjuration for the +proficiency to Counterspell and the ability to ritual the Abjuration ward back up. Evocation would be nice for the Magic Missile + Counterspell cheese of stupid high damage with Magic Missile, but honestly there's better ways of ending a fight.

Contingency would of course be cast with Greater Invisibility (can't counterspell what you can't see) or a Resilient Sphere. After the first round presumably I could size up the competition and decide what to slot in it after the short rest Arcane Recovery for Contingency.

After that it's a matter of Wall of Forcing the competition in place and then just doing whatever you want. Alternatively, Animate Objects -> 10 tiny objects. Will hit hard enough to wreck any concentration and each get opportunity attacks (if they try to move closer to the Wizard) even through Darkness because of their Blindsight.

For fights where I didn't feel like wasting a 5th level slot to auto-win, I would Conjure Minor Elementals and summon fire mephits. Each casts Heat Metal on the armor & weapon.

Then of course there's the ultimate cheese of Rope Trick and poking out to blast the enemy. Phantasmal Force against any non-Int based class will be ruinous and give me plenty of time to get non-concentration buffs up for particularly well built classes (Mirror Image + Blink).
That's not the whole story. Wizards have great nova, but can't on level 12 use enough level 6 slots and this is certainly not true. A bard could steal things like this or hellish rebuke, a barbarian wouldn't die easy. The wizard has some buffs but Animate objects isn't stronger than an optimized fighter or barbarian.

Finieous
2016-02-01, 12:22 PM
I'm going to say you only get the amount of spells that you learn per level up, no writing down spells out of other spellbooks.

Casters should definitely have to commit to prepared spells, but this isn't necessary. Let wizards put their memorized spells together from any available. Still going to be nigh-impossible to make it through four fights to get that long rest before the finals.

MaxWilson
2016-02-01, 12:24 PM
Just out of curiosity... This isn't something I see discussed often on this board, as PvP is generally frowned upon, but let's say you were doing a 1-shot where everyone builds characters specifically for the purpose of PvP. No roleplay, no flavor, no need to gimp yourself because something fits the character thematically.

Let's say you make a level 12 character. Multi-classing allowed. 1 uncommon magic item. Gladiator style tournament with 16 people (4 rounds). 1 hour rest in between each match, long rest before the finals. (but a full heal, so your health is always at max at the start of each fight) (Oh, and 27 point buy to keep things balanced)

What character would you make?

Edit: In case it is relevant, we'll say this is the arena.
http://wowservices.synthasite.com/resources/arena-wow-tf2.jpg

I'd play a Monk of Long Death Dex 18 Wis 16 Mobile Lucky Sharpshooter just for the "rawr, I'll NEVER DIE!!!" factor. Play hit and run, or Stunning Strike if someone is up close.

Stealth proficiency. If someone has a short-term buff (like a Bladesong or Animate Objects), disengage around a corner and Hide, and wait a few minutes, then try to surprise them from stealth later. Avoid fair fights.

Winged Boots are my magic item.

BTW I don't know that map. Is there a version of it where we can see the layout and the scale? If it's a videogame I would expect that it probably doesn't have a scale so you might need to assign one.

Finieous
2016-02-01, 12:32 PM
Winged Boots are my magic item.

I like it, but no magic weapon is going to hurt in a lot of fights. I'd probably go Eversmoking Bottle for fun with my tremorsense.

Douche
2016-02-01, 12:40 PM
That is a HUGE restriction. This tournament just became unfriendly to wizards (I am not saying a wizard cannot dominate it, only that he will have a harder time now, with this restriction).


Casters should definitely have to commit to prepared spells, but this isn't necessary. Let wizards put their memorized spells together from any available. Still going to be nigh-impossible to make it through four fights to get that long rest before the finals.

Oh, well.. I didn't know it was such a huge deal, sorry.

But still, realistically, the alternative means that he conveniently knows every single spell. There has to be some way to limit it.

Finieous
2016-02-01, 12:43 PM
Oh, well.. I didn't know it was such a huge deal, sorry.

But still, realistically, the alternative means that he conveniently knows every single spell. There has to be some way to limit it.

Not a huge deal to me! I guess I just feel like the fixed, limited, long-rest resources make it hard enough for a wizard to make it through four rounds, so why make it worse?

MaxWilson
2016-02-01, 12:43 PM
I like it, but no magic weapon is going to hurt in a lot of fights. I'd probably go Eversmoking Bottle for fun with my tremorsense.

Yeah, but I'm a monk. My physical attacks are intrinsically magical. My Longbow isn't magical, but having a somewhat stronger ranged attack is less valuable to me than additional mobility of the Winged Boots.

Besides, I'm not optimizing anyway, and Winged Boots are a magic item that I happen to remember off the top of my head.

RulesJD
2016-02-01, 12:44 PM
Must be an error in the SRD. Says "none of the slots can be 6th level or higher" right there on page 53.



So that's both your 5th level slots on Wall of Force. The bowl is nice and I guess you can force me into it, even if I'm just poking out of the ground a little, but I can just climb out, can't I? I'm Large and Str +5. And of course that assumes you see me when I come up. I can come up and take a look anywhere.

As for Mold Earth, is that Move Earth, the 6th-level spell? So you've used both 5th-level slots and your 6th-level slot.



So that's Conjure Elemental instead of one of the Walls of Force? Okay. I'm Mobile so I'll just run away from him until he disappears.



Yeah, it'll be boring. If I can bait you into wasting your spell slots on walls, conjures, earth pillars, shields, buffs, etc., I'd likely go behind a pillar, change into druid form, and summon eight pixies to polymorph you into a newt. Kinda like your magma mephit trick, but with polymorph instead of heat metal. :smallbiggrin:



I can outrun your elemental and still check in on you from time to time. I can just swim around in circles under the surface and breach now and again like a stony dolphin. But your earth elemental is concentration, anyway, so you can't cast any extended spells while he's chasing me. You can't conjure him if you're doing your earth pillar thing, either.



Seventeen prepared spells is a lot, but I can stay in elemental form for six hours. And if you use those slots and somehow win, like I said, you lose the next round.

Good catch on the Arcane Recovery, you're right that it's limited to 5th level and lower!

But it still doesn't matter.

You really aren't imagining this very well. I'd only need 1 Wall of Force to beat your Earth Elemental. If I win initiative, you're stuck either way. If you win, you burrow down a certain amount into the ground. (you're assuming this is unworked earth or stone btw).

Mold Earth is a cantrip. 5ft cube of dirt. Infinite casting = big ol' pile of dirt for me to stand on that your Large size creature would not be able to get within 5ft of without being spotted.

You pop up, really? Do you know what Readied actions are?

This needs a description of the battlefield, because I don't recall any mention of pillars to hide behind. Pixies are what Counterspell/Dispell is for. If there are pillars, I just let my Earth Elemental be my bodybuard while I climb up a WORKED stone pillar, which means you can't touch me as an Earth Elemental. At that point you have to change back into Druid and I'll just Counterspell/Dispell you all day long.

Not to mention, your build loses out against almost any melee build worth a damn. All they need to do is Ready Action -> Grapple. Use their various class abilities to lower your Strength checks, and Grapple your Earth Elemental. From there it's just a matter of Booming Blade your Thunder damage vulnerable butt back into druid form. You really better hope not to run up against a Tempest Cleric with some levels of Sorcerer. 1 Maximized level 6 Chromatic Orb (Thunder) = 128 damage to your Earth Elemental (poof gone). You're now facing an enemy with Counterspell (which you don't have) and much better spells than your Druid. Good luck.

That's the problem with Druid builds, they run out of steam far too quickly. You are literally nothing but a bag of HP and some mediocre damage. An even half-way intelligent player will easily overcome the VERY few advantages you have and then crush you. The fact that Druid's don't have Greater Invisibility or even Counterspell pretty much eliminates them from this competition.

*edit*

Forgot to add, I'd be curious what the policy would be on Magic Jar. Because with that, the Divination Wizard is an almost guaranteed win (Divination an actual guaranteed win) if they come up against a non-Charisma based class. Just take them over and poof, you now have two characters.

SpawnOfMorbo
2016-02-01, 12:50 PM
Air Genasi Lightning Dragon Sorcerer X/Rogue Y (at least 2)

I don't have the build completed 100% but... Essentially I will lightning lure + grapple your character and then let off a stinking cloud. While you attempt to get out of the cloud grapple combo (con save or lose action, action to be able to get out of the grapple) I'll be using shocking grasp, witch bolt, and Lightning bolt.

Not as effective against lightning resistant creatures so I could always switch it up a bit if I'm playing under the assumption I know the enemy.

I really really like my nasty bro build haha. Works best with allies but it would be fun to play PvP.

For single battle I would take Quicken and Subtle MM. BA quicken lightning lure (1d8 + Cha to 4d8 + Cha) + grapple is a great combo.

Corran
2016-02-01, 12:54 PM
Air Genasi Lightning Dragon Sorcerer X/Rogue Y (at least 2)

I don't have the build completed 100% but... Essentially I will lightning lure + grapple your character and then let off a stinking cloud. While you attempt to get out of the cloud grapple combo (con save or lose action, action to be able to get out of the grapple) I'll be using shocking grasp, witch bolt, and Lightning bolt.

Not as effective against lightning resistant creatures so I could always switch it up a bit if I'm playing under the assumption I know the enemy.

I really really like my nasty bro build haha. Works best with allies but it would be fun to play PvP.

For single battle I would take Quicken and Subtle MM. BA quicken lightning lure (1d8 + Cha to 4d8 + Cha) + grapple is a great combo.
This build should be disqualified, as you are breaking the no1 rule of the bro code. Never fart on someone's balls!:smallbiggrin:

RulesJD
2016-02-01, 12:54 PM
Sorry, you can ignore my previous post, I didn't see that we get 1 Uncommon magic item. Your entire argument and build are no longer valid because I'm definitely taking a Broom of Flying. Don't need to waste any spell slots because I can just hover 60ft above the ground waiting for your Shapechange to wear off. At that point Wizard > Druid without Counterspell so it's an easy win for a few level 3 spell slots on Counterspell.

SpawnOfMorbo
2016-02-01, 12:58 PM
Sorry, you can ignore my previous post, I didn't see that we get 1 Uncommon magic item. Your entire argument and build are no longer valid because I'm definitely taking a Broom of Flying. Don't need to waste any spell slots because I can just hover 60ft above the ground waiting for your Shapechange to wear off. At that point Wizard > Druid without Counterspell so it's an easy win for a few level 3 spell slots on Counterspell.

This is why I love subtle spell, this tactic of counter spell doesn't work :D

Damn sorcerers for not getting enough SP or a favored MM at high levels (that they apply for free much like how wizards get signature spells).

Douche
2016-02-01, 12:58 PM
This needs a description of the battlefield, because I don't recall any mention of pillars to hide behind. Pixies are what Counterspell/Dispell is for. If there are pillars, I just let my Earth Elemental be my bodybuard while I climb up a WORKED stone pillar, which means you can't touch me as an Earth Elemental. At that point you have to change back into Druid and I'll just Counterspell/Dispell you all day long.

Maybe you can't see the spoiler in the OP or the image won't load. Here's the link by itself. Alternatively, you can google image search "WoW arena" and it should be the first result.

http://wowservices.synthasite.com/resources/arena-wow-tf2.jpg

It's a square arena, floor is covered in sand. There are 2 gates at opposite corners of the room. There is a bridge going across the center of the arena (at a 90 degree angle from the gate you start in), with 2 ramps on either side. Under the bridge are 2 stone pillars (going lengthwise) and perpendicular to those 2 are 2 more pillars, so that the very middle of the arena has a circle of 4 pillars. (There's also some grates on the floor but they really do nothing anyway so ignore those)

Also, fyi, to start - both contenders start from their respective gates on either side, so you know exactly where they are when the match starts. You can cast buffs, shapeshift, and such in there before the match starts. That's how WoW does it so I see no reason that this fight shouldn't.

Finieous
2016-02-01, 01:03 PM
You really aren't imagining this very well. I'd only need 1 Wall of Force to beat your Earth Elemental. If I win initiative, you're stuck either way. If you win, you burrow down a certain amount into the ground. (you're assuming this is unworked earth or stone btw).


Yeah, if you win initiative, I burrow down and wait until the spell goes away. And yes, I'm assuming earth glide works. If it doesn't, I've been wasting a lot of time on these posts!



Mold Earth is a cantrip. 5ft cube of dirt. Infinite casting = big ol' pile of dirt for me to stand on that your Large size creature would not be able to get within 5ft of without being spotted.


Oh, you can't make a pillar with the cantrip. You can make a pile, if given enough time, but I can earth glide through a pile of dirt.



You pop up, really? Do you know what Readied actions are?


Yes, if I pop up where you can see me, you could cast a readied spell. Just remember not to be concentrating on anything (like a conjured elemental) while you're concentrating on your readied spell!



This needs a description of the battlefield, because I don't recall any mention of pillars to hide behind.


I can't see the map, but someone upthread mentioned pillars and a bridge.



Pixies are what Counterspell/Dispell is for.


You can only counterspell one polymorph. You can't counterspell the conjure because you can't see me. You're welcome to dispel the pixies after they've cast their eight polymorphs, should you make all those saving throws.



If there are pillars, I just let my Earth Elemental be my bodybuard while I climb up a WORKED stone pillar, which means you can't touch me as an Earth Elemental. At that point you have to change back into Druid and I'll just Counterspell/Dispell you all day long.


I'm not sure what your Athletics is, but I think I might have a chance to do something while you're conjuring the elemental and climbing the pillar.



Not to mention, your build loses out against almost any melee build worth a damn. All they need to do is Ready Action -> Grapple. Use their various class abilities to lower your Strength checks, and Grapple your Earth Elemental.


Why would I take earth elemental form against a melee build (or a tempest cleric!)? I can still be a 12th-level druid with a 60-ft. flying speed when I want. Or an air elemental with resistance to lightning and thunder damage. I was working under the impression that I'd choose my form based on my opponent.



That's the problem with Druid builds, they run out of steam far too quickly. You are literally nothing but a bag of HP and some mediocre damage. An even half-way intelligent player will easily overcome the VERY few advantages you have and then crush you. The fact that Druid's don't have Greater Invisibility or even Counterspell pretty much eliminates them from this competition.

I feel like you're the one who isn't imagining this very well, but it's no fun if it becomes contentious. Sorry if I made you mad.

ETA: Broom of Flying is great, but it doesn't invalidate my "build" (which at this point is "12th-level moon druid"). Makes it a much harder fight without earth elemental form, though. Have to think about what I'd do.

ETA2: Thanks for the link to the arena. Helps a lot, and not what I was picturing!

Finieous
2016-02-01, 01:31 PM
How big is the arena?

RulesJD
2016-02-01, 01:33 PM
Maybe you can't see the spoiler in the OP or the image won't load. Here's the link by itself. Alternatively, you can google image search "WoW arena" and it should be the first result.

http://wowservices.synthasite.com/resources/arena-wow-tf2.jpg

It's a square arena, floor is covered in sand. There are 2 gates at opposite corners of the room. There is a bridge going across the center of the arena (at a 90 degree angle from the gate you start in), with 2 ramps on either side. Under the bridge are 2 stone pillars (going lengthwise) and perpendicular to those 2 are 2 more pillars, so that the very middle of the arena has a circle of 4 pillars. (There's also some grates on the floor but they really do nothing anyway so ignore those)

Also, fyi, to start - both contenders start from their respective gates on either side, so you know exactly where they are when the match starts. You can cast buffs, shapeshift, and such in there before the match starts. That's how WoW does it so I see no reason that this fight shouldn't.

Well in that case I would just walk up on one of the worked stone bridges and wait for your Earth Elemental form to wear off lol. You Conjure Pixies, I cast/Contingency (depending on where the Pixies land in the initiative order) Resilient Sphere or Greater Invisibility. After that it's literally a laughing matter to kill them off.

Not to mention Polymorph is a DC 12 Wisdom save. My Wizard would have proficiency at it and the only 3 stats he cares about are Wisdom, Int, and Dex. Resiliency (Con) of course as his feat. If we're talking automatically starting at level 12 I'd be either a Gnome (Advantage on those Int/Wis/Cha saves) or a Variant Human (Lucky). I'd be looking at a +7 Wisdom saves at that point. Best case scenario you get what, 2-3 of them ahead of me in the Initiative order? Pretty confident in making those saves in time to cast whatever spell I feel like to destroy your concentration, turn invisible so your Pixies can't see for Polymorph, and move into range to Counterspell any additional attempts.

Douche
2016-02-01, 01:45 PM
How big is the arena?

Oh, jeez... I dunno.. I've never been good at determining size in a video game. Like when a spell says it has a range of 40 yards, I'm just like "well, I suppose I'll just keep running towards my enemy til you let me cast this!"

Anyway, for the sake of the discussion, lets say its 35 feet on each side, and the bridge is 10 feet wide. So 80'x80'

Finieous
2016-02-01, 01:55 PM
Well in that case I would just walk up on one of the worked stone bridges and wait for your Earth Elemental form to wear off lol.


Yeah, I can't start in elemental form in this setup now that I've seen the arena. I have to start in caster form hidden with pass without trace to see what I'm up against. Actually, I'm assuming with this setup everyone is going to come out hidden or invisible.



You Conjure Pixies, I cast/Contingency (depending on where the Pixies land in the initiative order) Resilient Sphere or Greater Invisibility. After that it's literally a laughing matter to kill them off.


What's your trigger for that contingency?



Not to mention Polymorph is a DC 12 Wisdom save. My Wizard would have proficiency at it and the only 3 stats he cares about are Wisdom, Int, and Dex. Resiliency (Con) of course as his feat. If we're talking automatically starting at level 12 I'd be either a Gnome (Advantage on those Int/Wis/Cha saves) or a Variant Human (Lucky). I'd be looking at a +7 Wisdom saves at that point. Best case scenario you get what, 2-3 of them ahead of me in the Initiative order? Pretty confident in making those saves in time to cast whatever spell I feel like to destroy your concentration, turn invisible so your Pixies can't see for Polymorph, and move into range to Counterspell any additional attempts.

Nah, they roll initiative as a group. Better stick with gnome. If you need a 5 to succeed, you only have a 16% chance of not being a newt. Jumps to 72% with gnome! I can cast the spell three times and I'm going to take care to cast it when you can't see me. But now I'm wasting slots, too, and I'm not going to make it through four rounds even if I win, either. It's easy to counter your flying, but the waiting game won't work, so I have to figure out how to kill you fast when you're down without wasting slots.

Foxhound438
2016-02-01, 02:17 PM
aarokockra sun monk with alert, 20 dex. Stunning blow casters, deflect missiles against archers/other range stuff, fly out of effective range of other foes. Most terrifying thing becomes eldritch knights and sorcerers, who can hit from range and consistently succeed con saves.

Douche
2016-02-01, 02:18 PM
Out of curiosity, what's the maximum amount of damage a wizard can do with his 17 spell slots? A rogue/warlock with uncanny dodge and magic resistance on his familiar would be taking 1/4 of that total. Would he be able to tank that?

Or some other build, maybe with Bear Barbarian thrown in.
Edit: Never mind... I just looked up one 5th level spell (Immolation) and that's probably not going to happen. But it would still eat hella resources.

Despite all that, I think we're getting hung up on saying Wizard is the standard to beat. The consensus is pretty much that he's going to run out of spells, and we're assuming this druid/wizard battle is going to be the first round. I want to hear some more creative player-killing builds!

btw, what's stopping a cleric from casting magic circle & silence, and then pelting the Wizard with rocks while he's powerless to cast anything?

Finieous
2016-02-01, 02:23 PM
btw, what's stopping a cleric from casting magic circle & silence, and then pelting the Wizard with rocks while he's powerless to cast anything?

You just said 'stop fixating on the wizard'! Anyway, magic circle has a one minute casting time, and what is it going to do, exactly? Silence is a 20-ft. radius fixed point, as I recall, so presumably the wizard would...move. ;)

Corran
2016-02-01, 02:33 PM
The main problem with a wizard, the way I see it, is that they have very few hit points (around 80-90 at that level), so if they lose initiative they are in for a bit of trouble.

Finieous
2016-02-01, 02:38 PM
The main problem with a wizard, the way I see it, is that they have very few hit points (around 80-90 at that level), so if they lose initiative they are in for a bit of trouble.

Even less: Assuming Con 14, that's 74 hit points. And then crappy hit dice and no healing on his short rests between fights. [Oops - just saw you get healed to full after each fight. NVM.]

Douche
2016-02-01, 02:40 PM
You just said 'stop fixating on the wizard'! Anyway, magic circle has a one minute casting time, and what is it going to do, exactly? Silence is a 20-ft. radius fixed point, as I recall, so presumably the wizard would...move. ;)

Oh, valid. Never looked at the cast time. Thought it could keep him in the radius of the silence. Fine then, a 20 str grappling cleric grabs the Wizard, casts silence, and then punches him in the head repeatedly. That's one spell. He's got 3 rounds to go after, and only burned one spell slot.

I'm just saying, there must be simpler means against fighting someone who relies solely on casting spells - and has to worry about conserving them besides that.

MaxWilson
2016-02-01, 02:44 PM
Maybe you can't see the spoiler in the OP or the image won't load. Here's the link by itself. Alternatively, you can google image search "WoW arena" and it should be the first result.

http://wowservices.synthasite.com/resources/arena-wow-tf2.jpg

It's a square arena, floor is covered in sand. There are 2 gates at opposite corners of the room. There is a bridge going across the center of the arena (at a 90 degree angle from the gate you start in), with 2 ramps on either side. Under the bridge are 2 stone pillars (going lengthwise) and perpendicular to those 2 are 2 more pillars, so that the very middle of the arena has a circle of 4 pillars. (There's also some grates on the floor but they really do nothing anyway so ignore those)

Also, fyi, to start - both contenders start from their respective gates on either side, so you know exactly where they are when the match starts. You can cast buffs, shapeshift, and such in there before the match starts. That's how WoW does it so I see no reason that this fight shouldn't.

What's the scale in feet? 120' across? Less?

RulesJD
2016-02-01, 02:48 PM
The main problem with a wizard, the way I see it, is that they have very few hit points (around 80-90 at that level), so if they lose initiative they are in for a bit of trouble.

1. That's why I figured Abjuration Wizards would be so popular. Arcane Ward = 29hp Ward up at every fight that's free for the Wizard to recharge by ritually casting spells between each round. So Abj Wizard will actually have an average of 62 (assuming +1 con) HP + 29hp Ward = 91HP, which is pretty beefy considering....

2. That the Wizard's main defense isn't Health, but their defensive spells. Shield (which also recharges the ward by 2hp per casting), Fire Shield, Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door, Resilient Sphere, Wall of Force, etc are all insanely powerful spells. Throw in Counterspell and the Abjuration Wizard's natural superiority at Counterspelling, and it can defeat most other builds without trying too hard.

Dealing damage isn't really the problem for a Wizard either. A Wizard is honestly only limited by their creativity. If I trap you in an upside down half-dome Wall of Force that you can't escape for 10 minutes, all I need to do is cantrip you to death. That's 100 rounds. If you're an Archer build, then make it a regular dome that floats 1/2 inch off the ground.

The real problem is finding a DM that's knowledgeable about spells. After all, if I precast Magic Jar and then force a Charisma save that instantly gets me full control of the other Player, how do you adjudicate that? It wouldn't be fun for the other player, but it would be how the spell works.

Finieous
2016-02-01, 02:49 PM
He said 80 x 80.

RulesJD
2016-02-01, 02:58 PM
Oh, valid. Never looked at the cast time. Thought it could keep him in the radius of the silence. Fine then, a 20 str grappling cleric grabs the Wizard, casts silence, and then punches him in the head repeatedly. That's one spell. He's got 3 rounds to go after, and only burned one spell slot.

I'm just saying, there must be simpler means against fighting someone who relies solely on casting spells - and has to worry about conserving them besides that.

1. Wizard Counterspells your silence.

2. Not a spell I normally have prepared, but if I knew I was going up in a PVP fight, likely Freedom of Movement pre-cast as a non-concentration buff.

Against a Cleric I would just use a level 2 Phantasmal Force and watch you try to hit a DC 17 Int save that you likely dump-stat for a -1. Hell I would make the illusion another versions of me that you're grappling but taking 1d6 (Phantasmal Force) + 3d10 (Fire Bolt) each round until you hit that DC 17 Int check (not a save after the first one). Even if you make the Int check, that's your action for the turn and I'll just re-cast it again.

Finieous
2016-02-01, 03:07 PM
Seriously, what's with the "force bowl"? Is that a thing? There's no mention that it's frictionless or anyting...why can't you just climb out?

PoeticDwarf
2016-02-01, 03:12 PM
Wizards are that powerful. Druids, clerics and bards can come up with these type ideas (even sorcerers can come far with metamagic). Smart use op spells are not only for wizard. Druid can use wild shape tactics but has strong spells. Cleric can heal quickly and deal some nice dmg. Sorcerers can burn some points and they can all take fly magic item, bards have best base dlr of these and bards have good divine and arcane spells and secrets. Wizards aren't superior. They are fullcasters with good options and many spells they can choose/prepare. Like clerics

RulesJD
2016-02-01, 03:25 PM
Wizards are that powerful. Druids, clerics and bards can come up with these type ideas (even sorcerers can come far with metamagic). Smart use op spells are not only for wizard. Druid can use wild shape tactics but has strong spells. Cleric can heal quickly and deal some nice dmg. Sorcerers can burn some points and they can all take fly magic item, bards have best base dlr of these and bards have good divine and arcane spells and secrets. Wizards aren't superior. They are fullcasters with good options and many spells they can choose/prepare. Like clerics

I went with Wizards because their spell selection is significantly more diverse than those classes. I ruled out Clerics (even though I love them) because they don't get access to Counterspell or a way to improve their spell casting check like an Abjuration Wizard does. They also don't get Rope Trick, Wall of Force, Contingency, Blink, Greater Invisibility, Conjure Elementals/Minor Elementals, Resilient Sphere, Feather Fall, or Dimension Door which is a huge disadvantage. Those spells alone will wreck 99% of builds without the Wizard breaking a sweat.

Sorcs just don't have the good enough utility spells. Their metamagics give them a significant leg up and Heightened could counteract some of the Wizards advantage in spell selection, but it would be tough. Plus they don't get anything back from a short rest, which the Wizard at least gets the Abjuration Ward + 1 Arcane Recovery.

Bards....I don't know much about them. Last class in D&D that I haven't really played up to a high level (or at all). They get to add some proficiency to their Counterspell which is nice, and they can steal a few Wizard spells. If you got lucky and selected the right spells...maybe? But that's a big maybe.

Douche
2016-02-01, 03:37 PM
Wizards are that powerful. Druids, clerics and bards can come up with these type ideas (even sorcerers can come far with metamagic). Smart use op spells are not only for wizard. Druid can use wild shape tactics but has strong spells. Cleric can heal quickly and deal some nice dmg. Sorcerers can burn some points and they can all take fly magic item, bards have best base dlr of these and bards have good divine and arcane spells and secrets. Wizards aren't superior. They are fullcasters with good options and many spells they can choose/prepare. Like clerics

Yeah, my main problem with RulesJD is that he is conveniently saying he'd have that spell ready, as a response to what other people say they have.

As I said earlier, I think it's more constructive to have general builds, not precisely how you would counter one ultra-specific strategy. I'm just imagining that you wouldn't know exactly which spells the enemy has prepared in every instance.

If it were the first round, you'd have no idea unless the guy was a famous warrior, and even then you'd only know what tales would be told in a tavern. "I heard he got in a jumped in an alley one time.. An impenetrable shadow filled the alley, and when it lifted, everyone was dying on the floor from a gaping neck wound!" not so much "Yeah, that dude is a warlock 6/rogue 4. He normally casts darkness and uses his devil sight to easily kill everyone with sneak attacks while they have no idea where he is."

Alternatively, if you're sitting at a table with 16 people, they're probably not going to show you exactly what they have planned on the first round. In that case, you'd have no idea what class they're even playing.

Subsequent rounds would allow you more opportunity to know what you're up against, but that doesn't mean they don't know what they're up against either. So while it's easy to say "Yeah, this is what I totally would have already prepared after you've already told me that's how you're gonna counter me" it's not very realistic that you'd know every strategy before it happens. It reminds me of those contrived Yu-Gi-Oh episodes where he just happened to (somehow unknowingly) prepare the exact highly niche deck to counter his enemies also highly niche deck. It made for a good display on how cards and combos would work, but it wasn't believable as an actual match, or anything outside a childrens show.

We could try an exercise by putting the shoe on the other foot.. You list the exact 17 spells (and cantrips) you have prepared on the first round, and then everyone tells you how they would conveniently counter everything armed with that knowledge.

RulesJD
2016-02-01, 04:19 PM
Yeah, my main problem with RulesJD is that he is conveniently saying he'd have that spell ready, as a response to what other people say they have.

As I said earlier, I think it's more constructive to have general builds, not precisely how you would counter one ultra-specific strategy. I'm just imagining that you wouldn't know exactly which spells the enemy has prepared in every instance.

If it were the first round, you'd have no idea unless the guy was a famous warrior, and even then you'd only know what tales would be told in a tavern. "I heard he got in a jumped in an alley one time.. An impenetrable shadow filled the alley, and when it lifted, everyone was dying on the floor from a gaping neck wound!" not so much "Yeah, that dude is a warlock 6/rogue 4. He normally casts darkness and uses his devil sight to easily kill everyone with sneak attacks while they have no idea where he is."

Alternatively, if you're sitting at a table with 16 people, they're probably not going to show you exactly what they have planned on the first round. In that case, you'd have no idea what class they're even playing.

Subsequent rounds would allow you more opportunity to know what you're up against, but that doesn't mean they don't know what they're up against either. So while it's easy to say "Yeah, this is what I totally would have already prepared after you've already told me that's how you're gonna counter me" it's not very realistic that you'd know every strategy before it happens. It reminds me of those contrived Yu-Gi-Oh episodes where he just happened to (somehow unknowingly) prepare the exact highly niche deck to counter his enemies also highly niche deck. It made for a good display on how cards and combos would work, but it wasn't believable as an actual match, or anything outside a childrens show.

We could try an exercise by putting the shoe on the other foot.. You list the exact 17 spells (and cantrips) you have prepared on the first round, and then everyone tells you how they would conveniently counter everything armed with that knowledge.

I haven't even listed 17 spells in this thread, and you don't prepare cantrips.

Firebolt, Mold Earth, Minor Illusion (assuming the other players don't get to hear what we're casting), Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch.
1. Shield
2. Mage Armor
3. Feather Fall
4. Mirror Image/Fire Shield (depending on what I think I'm facing)
5. Misty Step
6. Phantasmal Force
7. Rope Trick (DM ruling dependent)
8. Suggestion (DM ruling dependent as this could instantly end fights)/Blink
9. Counterspell
10. Blink (if not taken above)/Glyph of Warding (DM ruling dependent)
11. Conjure Minor Ele
12. Dimension Door
13. Greater Invis
14. Animate Objects
15. Conjure Ele
16. Wall of Force
17. Contingency (depending on DM ruling, if I can have this precast in the days before the fight, then Magic Jar DM ruling dependent). Contingency makes it a bit tougher without knowing the DM's ruling on how certain effects interact.

Also have access to Ritual Spells so Find Familiar would be up (and possibly Phantom Steed depending on exactly how long we get to pre-buff beforehand).

*edit* Some of these would be swapped dependent on DM ruling/how much we get to pre-buff. Would swap Mage Armor for Freedom of Movement, etc.

SpawnOfMorbo
2016-02-01, 04:20 PM
I haven't even listed 17 spells in this thread, and you don't prepare cantrips.

Firebolt, Mold Earth, Minor Illusion (assuming the other players don't get to hear what we're casting), Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch.
1. Shield
2. Mage Armor
3. Feather Fall
4. Mirror Image/Fire Shield (depending on what I think I'm facing)
5. Misty Step
6. Phantasmal Force
7. Rope Trick (DM ruling dependent)
8. Suggestion (DM ruling dependent as this could instantly end fights)/Blink
9. Counterspell
10. Blink (if not taken above)/Glyph of Warding (DM ruling dependent)
11. Conjure Minor Ele
12. Dimension Door
13. Greater Invis
14. Animate Objects
15. Conjure Ele
16. Wall of Force
17. Contingency (depending on DM ruling, if I can have this precast in the days before the fight, then Magic Jar DM ruling dependent). Contingency makes it a bit tougher without knowing the DM's ruling on how certain effects interact.

Also have access to Ritual Spells so Find Familiar would be up (and possibly Phantom Steed depending on exactly how long we get to pre-buff beforehand).

Unless you use subtle spell any spells that have a verbal component would be heard. Mostly up to the DM but taking away the ability to hear is like giving a free subtle (verbal) mm

RulesJD
2016-02-01, 04:26 PM
Unless you use subtle spell any spells that have a verbal component would be heard. Mostly up to the DM but taking away the ability to hear is like giving a free subtle (verbal) mm

Sadly the rules aren't real clear on that point. Subtle spell doesn't even get around Counterspell automatically because if it has material components you still need to activate your spell focus, so does that count for "seeing a creature casting a spell"? The only (mostly) surefire way of getting around Counterspell is being unseen through Darkness spell or Greater Invis.

Also, Minor Illusion doesn't have Verbal components. My worry was a metagaming one. If my Wizard acts like he's animated 10 Tiny objects with Minor Illusion, does the opposing player get to know it's just a Minor Illusion automatically because he heard me tell the DM so? I reallllllllly wish the rules were more clear on identifying spells being cast, but sadly they aren't so it's heavily DM dependent.

RickAllison
2016-02-01, 04:35 PM
Yeah, my main problem with RulesJD is that he is conveniently saying he'd have that spell ready, as a response to what other people say they have.

...

We could try an exercise by putting the shoe on the other foot.. You list the exact 17 spells (and cantrips) you have prepared on the first round, and then everyone tells you how they would conveniently counter everything armed with that knowledge.

This pretty much hits the nail on the head. A wizard has 17 prepared spells to try to account for 4 different enemies he knows very little about and who are likely planning however they can to counter him as well. A wizard has to not only deal that, but avoid blowing all of his spell slots. Those Counterspells? 3 of them for four fights that might all be against casters. He can regenerate up to two per battle, but even one then prevents him from regaining his level 5 spells our Wizard enthusiast so espoused. Shield and Mage Armor eat up the 1st-level slots, Dispel directly competes for Counterspell slots, and the strategy just doesn't seem terribly solid.

In this theoretical Druid battle, you are committed to an L5 for either Conjure Elemental or the force bowl. Arcane Ward is fine to cast as a ritual, unless you only have an hour between fights (in which case you give up your 6 levels of spell slots to get it, not a good trade). Mage Armor takes up an L1, Shield takes one for each turn you use it. Resilient Sphere, Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door, and Fire Shield take up L4s. That's a lot of your top spells that your entire defense is based around. One method you suggested of dealing with the Pixies involved invisibility and Counterspell, which chew up over your Arcane Recovery just do handle an individual spell, or try Dispel and Counterspell that functions the same way. Contingency + either option chews up your highest spell and one of your bread-and-butter slots just to postpone the battle and negate an L4. What this sounds like is sacrificing ability to take on numerous other encounters to defeat one person. With this set-up, it's looking like you might beat the druid (still up in the air), but you would lose steam for the rest of the tournament.

EDIT: Ninja'd by the adjudicator on the buffing. You could get one ritual casting in.

Douche
2016-02-01, 04:35 PM
Unless you use subtle spell any spells that have a verbal component would be heard. Mostly up to the DM but taking away the ability to hear is like giving a free subtle (verbal) mm

I think he meant, like, in the preparatory phase, behind the gate before the match starts. He'd be allowed to cast minor illusion but not through the gate.

Also, minor illusion can't move (I'm assuming. Other illusion spells do specify that you can move it, so that's how I arrived at that conclusion. For instance, Silent Image requires you to use an action to move your illusion. Minor illusion makes no mention of moving it at all.) so you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that they're hostile floating objects. On the other hand, let's say that you're playing online or in a separate room so we don't have to consider any metagaming of that sort.



Also have access to Ritual Spells so Find Familiar would be up (and possibly Phantom Steed depending on exactly how long we get to pre-buff beforehand).

*edit* Some of these would be swapped dependent on DM ruling/how much we get to pre-buff. Would swap Mage Armor for Freedom of Movement, etc.

In WoW, all buffs were instant so pre-buffing wasn't an issue, but you had 30 seconds to prepare. The arena also didn't allow you to use any spells with a cooldown longer than 8 minutes so I guess that's the equivalent.. Let's say you have 10 minutes to pre-buff.

Also, I didn't want to say this but I feel like mind-control/charm spells go against the spirit of PvP. Most video games don't allow you to mind control other players, and if it does then it only lasts for a tiny fraction of the duration... Like in WoW, a priest using mind control would have like 2 seconds to do something. Not even worth the cast time. There was one battleground where you might be able to make someone jump off a bridge to their death, but you had to be lucky. Point being, I don't think it should be allowed.

And I'm not sure what the deal is with Magic Jar. You only have 1 6th level spell slot so I don't know if you can cast that and contingency, and the spell says if the target dies, you have a chance of dying too.... Your plan for winning a tournament is to try not to kill yourself?

Anyway, I'm sorry if it feels like I'm singling you out. I'm gonna step back from this now.

Corran
2016-02-01, 04:42 PM
Sadly the rules aren't real clear on that point. Subtle spell doesn't even get around Counterspell automatically because if it has material components you still need to activate your spell focus, so does that count for "seeing a creature casting a spell"? The only (mostly) surefire way of getting around Counterspell is being unseen through Darkness spell or Greater Invis.

I remember seeing somewhere a quote from JC saying that subtle can get around counterspell. You make a good point about material components though.

MaxWilson
2016-02-01, 04:42 PM
1. Wizard Counterspells your silence.

2. Not a spell I normally have prepared, but if I knew I was going up in a PVP fight, likely Freedom of Movement pre-cast as a non-concentration buff.

If you're going to allow "precast spells" as a DM, you're morally obligated to allow "pre-hidden" PCs. You can only Counterspell that which you can see, so unless your Wizard has crazy-high Perception there's a good chance you won't be able to Counterspell until your opponent blows his cover.

RickAllison
2016-02-01, 04:47 PM
If you're going to allow "precast spells" as a DM, you're morally obligated to allow "pre-hidden" PCs. You can only Counterspell that which you can see, so unless your Wizard has crazy-high Perception there's a good chance you won't be able to Counterspell until your opponent blows his cover.

Yeah... 10 minutes to prepare, and Hide is a combat action, so 6 seconds. 100 chances to get a 20 on the stealth roll.

Foxhound438
2016-02-01, 04:51 PM
so what does the uber-reactive wizard do if he loses initiative to the bird monk and can't shield to get AC above the attack rolls? (against +9, you'd have AC 23 at absolute most, but that's assuming you have 20 dex, so with 4 attacks at 35% hit chance, only an 18% chance to get out of round 1 scratch free, again assuming 20 dex) how does he counter being stun locked for the 3 turns it takes to kill him?

Finieous
2016-02-01, 04:59 PM
If you're going to allow "precast spells" as a DM, you're morally obligated to allow "pre-hidden" PCs. You can only Counterspell that which you can see, so unless your Wizard has crazy-high Perception there's a good chance you won't be able to Counterspell until your opponent blows his cover.

That's where I was going -- seems like everyone would try to open up this way. I'd even go Druid 11/Rogue 1 for Stealth and Perception Expertise to go with my Pass without Trace. With this setup, it might even be worth giving up 5th level spells to go D10/R2 and get Cunning Action. Come out sneaky and flying, wait for any spell durations to expire, then assess what you're up against and act accordingly.

I feel bad for the spectators, because I suspect these would be some really dull fights.

Douche
2016-02-01, 05:03 PM
I feel bad for the spectators, because I suspect these would be some really dull fights.

Hey, if spectators of the Dragonball Z tournaments had to wait 5 episodes for Goku to charge a Kamehameha, spectators of the D&D multiverse tournament can suck it up.

RulesJD
2016-02-01, 05:06 PM
Yeah... 10 minutes to prepare, and Hide is a combat action, so 6 seconds. 100 chances to get a 20 on the stealth roll.

You're trying to hide in...where exactly? Not really sure we're you're going with that one. I never played WoW but my understanding from looking at that map was that you started in a small cage and then got released into the arena at the same time.

And contrary to popular belief, Hide does not equal Invisibility. Granted, it is another area of the rules where there is a TON of uncertainty. But if you "stealth" behind a pillar that an enemy is looking directly at, no, you aren't going to be an unseen attacker when you step out from behind it just because you rolled a 32 on your stealth check.

Finieous
2016-02-01, 05:09 PM
You're trying to hide in...where exactly? Not really sure we're you're going with that one. I never played WoW but my understanding from looking at that map was that you started in a small cage and then got released into the arena at the same time.

And contrary to popular belief, Hide does not equal Invisibility. Granted, it is another area of the rules where there is a TON of uncertainty. But if you "stealth" behind a pillar that an enemy is looking directly at, no, you aren't going to be an unseen attacker when you step out from behind it just because you rolled a 32 on your stealth check.

I'll be hiding in "a veil of shadows and silence." I probably wouldn't stealth behind a pillar you're looking directly at.

RickAllison
2016-02-01, 05:12 PM
You're trying to hide in...where exactly? Not really sure we're you're going with that one. I never played WoW but my understanding from looking at that map was that you started in a small cage and then got released into the arena at the same time.

And contrary to popular belief, Hide does not equal Invisibility. Granted, it is another area of the rules where there is a TON of uncertainty. But if you "stealth" behind a pillar that an enemy is looking directly at, no, you aren't going to be an unseen attacker when you step out from behind it just because you rolled a 32 on your stealth check.

All they need is to be hidden for the first spell. You get thrown off by one that you can't Counter and they can follow it up.

RulesJD
2016-02-01, 05:20 PM
so what does the uber-reactive wizard do if he loses initiative to the bird monk and can't shield to get AC above the attack rolls? (against +9, you'd have AC 23 at absolute most, but that's assuming you have 20 dex, so with 4 attacks at 35% hit chance, only an 18% chance to get out of round 1 scratch free, again assuming 20 dex) how does he counter being stun locked for the 3 turns it takes to kill him?

Why couldn't the Wizard cast Shield even though he lost Initiative?

Also, see previous post about pre-buffing. Blink would be my last cast buff (to last the longest) so there's a 50% chance the Wizard wouldn't be there even if the other player went first.

From what I understand, the arena is 80ft wide? Don't feel like looking it up, but is there a way for the base speed of a bird monk to be a base of 80ft? If not, then he's only facing 2 attacks (have to use bonus to dash into melee).

Would hate to burn it, but likely just Contingency -> Greater Invis. Monk has to swing at the aforementioned AC with disadvantage (if the Wizard didn't Blink away). I'd be confident in that even with +9 to hit. Also see that I'm taking Resiliency (con) so +5/+6 to save against DC 15/16 Con save?

Compare that to the Wizard who would just cast literally any spell that attacks Int. Dump stating Int so good luck on the DC 17 Phantasmal Force as I plink away from range.

Interesting that we have time to pre-buff. I would save a bit of time to pre-cast a few instances of my Wizard (Gnome <5ft cube) so you'd have to either guess which one is the real thing or waste one of your two (or possibly 4) attacks to find out which one is real. Maybe none of them are because the Wizard is in the Ethereal realm for that turn so your best hope is a readied action 1 attack.

Can the players normally see across the arena to tell what they are fighting when they are buffing up?

RulesJD
2016-02-01, 05:22 PM
I'll be hiding in "a veil of shadows and silence." I probably wouldn't stealth behind a pillar you're looking directly at.

Yeah, except Pass Without Trace doesn't create a physical veil of shadows nor is it the silence spell. That map is in the day time. There is no dim light or darkness. You still aren't explaining what you're supposedly hiding behind.

ruy343
2016-02-01, 06:00 PM
I would be sorely tempted to just go straight Barbarian, with bear totem at 3rd (elemental resistance) followed by Eagle totem later on to give me momentary flight speed to catch up with pesky fliers.

Regarding the guys in darkness; reckless attack would allow me to consistently hit (advantage cancels disadvantage), and likely break your concentration with the high-damage attacks that Barbarians can dish out. Shield master to shove people prone as a bonus action is also a potential build direction: I'd probably carry both a two-handed weapon and a battleaxe/shield, depending on my opponent (spellcasters get the big weapon).

Only downside is that I'd not have rage for one of my fights (I think), but depending on the opponent I might not need it.

I find it interesting that many of you are relying on invisibility, darkness, etc. to avoid your opponent. Most spellcasters by this time would be able to cast "daylight" or "See invisibility" anyway, and martial characters can simply avoid you or run around and bump into you, depending on the situation. That kind of kiting tactic only works when you have somewhere to run...

And in the arena...

You don't.

Finieous
2016-02-01, 06:44 PM
Yeah, except Pass Without Trace doesn't create a physical veil of shadows nor is it the silence spell. That map is in the day time. There is no dim light or darkness. You still aren't explaining what you're supposedly hiding behind.

I don't understand. It explicitly says a veil of shadows and silence. Are you saying this is actually, like, metaphorical or something?

BTW, those pixies force a Charisma save, newt. :smallbiggrin:

Corran
2016-02-01, 06:44 PM
I would be sorely tempted to just go straight Barbarian, with bear totem at 3rd (elemental resistance) followed by Eagle totem later on to give me momentary flight speed to catch up with pesky fliers.

Regarding the guys in darkness; reckless attack would allow me to consistently hit (advantage cancels disadvantage), and likely break your concentration with the high-damage attacks that Barbarians can dish out. Shield master to shove people prone as a bonus action is also a potential build direction: I'd probably carry both a two-handed weapon and a battleaxe/shield, depending on my opponent (spellcasters get the big weapon).

Only downside is that I'd not have rage for one of my fights (I think), but depending on the opponent I might not need it.

I find it interesting that many of you are relying on invisibility, darkness, etc. to avoid your opponent. Most spellcasters by this time would be able to cast "daylight" or "See invisibility" anyway, and martial characters can simply avoid you or run around and bump into you, depending on the situation. That kind of kiting tactic only works when you have somewhere to run...

And in the arena...

You don't.
Yeah, reckless attack cancels your disadvantage when attacking in darkness or sth that it invisible. And since your enemy has already advantage, there is no downside. A useful feature in those situations. But you are assuming that you know the enemy's location, which you dont if the enemy can hide as a bonus action and his stealth check beats your passive perception. Your best strategy in this case, is to ready an attack or a grapple, but the enemy can always kite you with a ranged attack if he smells what you are doing, just before hiding again.

Walking here and there hoping to bump into your enemy doesnt work that way, and it is a very meta thinking that requires some houseruling and a DM who bet on your character to win, in order for it to work.

See invisibility and true seeing are valid countermeasures though.

Citan
2016-02-01, 06:45 PM
Well in that case I would just walk up on one of the worked stone bridges and wait for your Earth Elemental form to wear off lol. You Conjure Pixies, I cast/Contingency (depending on where the Pixies land in the initiative order) Resilient Sphere or Greater Invisibility. After that it's literally a laughing matter to kill them off.

Not to mention Polymorph is a DC 12 Wisdom save. My Wizard would have proficiency at it and the only 3 stats he cares about are Wisdom, Int, and Dex. Resiliency (Con) of course as his feat. If we're talking automatically starting at level 12 I'd be either a Gnome (Advantage on those Int/Wis/Cha saves) or a Variant Human (Lucky). I'd be looking at a +7 Wisdom saves at that point. Best case scenario you get what, 2-3 of them ahead of me in the Initiative order? Pretty confident in making those saves in time to cast whatever spell I feel like to destroy your concentration, turn invisible so your Pixies can't see for Polymorph, and move into range to Counterspell any additional attempts.

Hi.
Sorry to jump into your "textual encounter", but I'd like to understand. What's so great in having to waste either a 4th lvl or 5th lvl slot (or both) to be protected for 1mn against conjurations that can last up to 1h?

Especially considering, I don't know...
- Invoke 2 Dryads (is that the name? don't remember) that could cast Entangle on you. STR save, you won't like it. Sure, for a caster if may be a minor inconvenience in itself (you can still cast) but with a Earth elemental lurking around... :)
- Or to stay on Pixies, then could just split, a few try to harass you, the other turn invisible and hide to try and attack later, forcing you to further consume your spell slots.
- Or Blink Dog to track you in spite of your invisibility (advantage on hear/smell Perception).
And Resilient Sphere works both ways, so you're stuck inside without any mean to do anything... While your opponent has plenty of time to prepare.

Druid could later invoke again if needed, once you're out of great protection...
- Satyrs or Sprites that would shoot arrows to keep you, again, using
- or any combination of the previous.
- or take into Animals to track and harm you: Flying Snake has blindsight, so much for Invisibility, Giant Owl has advantage on Perception hearing, or some Swarm of Bats. :)

And good thing for you that Invisible Stalker is CR 6, too high for Conjure Elemental. Wait... No, in fact, if Druid sacrifices his lvl6 slot, he can call it. Good luck with this ;)
Perma invisibility, automatically knows your location "knows the direction and distance to its quarry" and very good Stealth and Passive Perception.

Really, your best bet would probably fight evil with evil, summoning some elemental minions to help you.
One man cannot wage war against an army alone (except in american action movies). ;)

Finieous
2016-02-01, 06:48 PM
I would be sorely tempted to just go straight Barbarian, with bear totem at 3rd (elemental resistance) followed by Eagle totem later on to give me momentary flight speed to catch up with pesky fliers.


You don't get that until 14th level, so fliers would be more than pesky. Better get a broom. :smallbiggrin:

Citan
2016-02-01, 07:03 PM
2. That the Wizard's main defense isn't Health, but their defensive spells. Shield (which also recharges the ward by 2hp per casting), Fire Shield, Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door, Resilient Sphere, Wall of Force, etc are all insanely powerful spells. Throw in Counterspell and the Abjuration Wizard's natural superiority at Counterspelling, and it can defeat most other builds without trying too hard.

Dealing damage isn't really the problem for a Wizard either. A Wizard is honestly only limited by their creativity. If I trap you in an upside down half-dome Wall of Force that you can't escape for 10 minutes, all I need to do is cantrip you to death. That's 100 rounds. If you're an Archer build, then make it a regular dome that floats 1/2 inch off the ground.

Fire Shield is good against melee attackers only.
Dimension Door can be good in some situations, but would it be worth it in such an arena? Unless you have some offense ready as a bonus action (because you kep some concentration spell).

Resilient Sphere is "hey, you can't touch me... Duh, I can't touch you either. Let's look in each other's eyes for a minute. Be fair don't prepare anything plz".
Using it on others is great for ensuring safe casting of powerful spells (such as Delayed Blast Fireball or Leomunds's Tiny Hut). Casting on self is actually a very bad idea, unless you are certain that you will mechanically have the upper hand once it finishes. Otherwise, it's just taking three steps backwards to better jump into the defeat, because you can't do anything other than heal/buff yourself with non-concentration spells (and you have no heal as wizard). You cannot even hide because of "sphere of shimmering force".
While your opponent has up to 1mn to prepare a solid attack plan.

Same with Blink (actually worse in a way, because it makes easier for enemy far away to hide or cast powerful spells while you're on the alternative plane, but better in straight fights because you can maintain/prepare a concentration spell).

Wall of Force... Well, why couldn't one high jump, long jump, levitate or fly around? Also, any decent (minimum intelligence) player will have some ranged option to fire back at you, unless you can outrange him. Martials will have longbow. Casters will have spells. One could even troll you by also casting a Wall of Force (if has it) to complete the sphere.

The only great offense & defense spell here is Great Invisibility, because not all classes have counter-measures. And it's a 4th level spell.

RickAllison
2016-02-01, 07:24 PM
Now that I think about it, the druid is sounding pretty terrifying. Fighters and Barbarians that dump Cha stand a very good chance of becoming newts (and then being buried underground to conserve spell slots), he has the evasion and resilience to keep up with casters, he is sounding like a significant threat.

Citan
2016-02-01, 07:37 PM
Now that I think about it, the druid is sounding pretty terrifying. Fighters and Barbarians that dump Cha stand a very good chance of becoming newts (and then being buried underground to conserve spell slots), he has the evasion and resilience to keep up with casters, he is sounding like a significant threat.
Well, on the bright side, with a point-buy build, there is a fair chance that the Druid will dump its physical stats hard, keeping only a "decent-to-good" DEX maybe (or maybe even not).

Meaning that numerous DEX-oriented builds may get the jump start on him.
The build I posted for example could easily win over him if he starts, and it's not a faint chance.

Any caster (especially Bard and Sorcerer) with a 2-level fighter dip for Action Surge and/or Lucky feat could one-turn win this if they start.

A Swashbuckler Rogue could just Dash and Sneak Attack him, or hide and see what comes next if he'd prefer being careful.
Aforementioned builds mixing Monk and Rogue could be especially deadly to a Moon Druid: Wisdom saves, excellent dex, bonus to Stealth and Initiative, possibility to stun...

Moon Druid is terrifying... If he opens the fight. Otherwise, most people still have a fair chance. ;)

Finieous
2016-02-01, 07:53 PM
My aarakocra moon druid 10/rogue 2:

Str 8
Dex 16 (+2 race)
Con 14 (+1 feat)
Int 12
Wis 16 (+1 race)
Cha 10

Feats: Resilient (Con), Mobile

Skills: Perception (Exp) +11, Stealth (Exp) +11

All I lose from the two rogue levels is my one 6th level spell and an ASI. I really want to open in caster form, hidden (Stealth +21 with PwT), so Expertise and Cunning Action are worth far more than that.

I think in this setup if your opponent sees you before you see them, you're dead.

MaxWilson
2016-02-01, 08:00 PM
Now that I think about it, the druid is sounding pretty terrifying. Fighters and Barbarians that dump Cha stand a very good chance of becoming newts (and then being buried underground to conserve spell slots), he has the evasion and resilience to keep up with casters, he is sounding like a significant threat.

The druid is dependent almost entirely on Earth Glide, which means he's dependent on having loose earth or stone around. I can't tell from the screenshot what material the arena floor is made of or how deep it goes.


My aarakocra moon druid 10/rogue 2:

Str 8
Dex 16 (+2 race)
Con 14 (+1 feat)
Int 12
Wis 16 (+1 race)
Cha 10

Feats: Resilient (Con), Mobile

Skills: Perception (Exp) +11, Stealth (Exp) +11

All I lose from the two rogue levels is my one 6th level spell and an ASI. I really want to open in caster form, hidden (Stealth +21 with PwT), so Expertise and Cunning Action are worth far more than that.

I think in this setup if your opponent sees you before you see them, you're dead.

Yes, that sounds like a blast to play. I can't tell whether or not it will beat a Long Death Monk, but you're certainly guaranteed to have a blast playing it.

Finieous
2016-02-01, 08:04 PM
The druid is dependent almost entirely on Earth Glide, which means he's dependent on having loose earth or stone around. I can't tell from the screenshot what material the arena floor is made of or how deep it goes.

He said it was sand.

And the ideal case is that I'm hidden until you make eight DC 12 Charisma saves or turn into a halibut. I'm not sure how effective earth glide will be with easy flying.

MaxWilson
2016-02-01, 08:05 PM
He said it was sand.

Ah, thanks. Didn't see that post.

Citan
2016-02-01, 08:39 PM
Food for thought:
IF it's agreed that the combatants can forfeit the fight, here is a sure-win build. :)

How to one-trick win all fights unless really bad luck
Sorcerer 9.
Swashbuckler Rogue 3
Variant Human, dump everything you need to get 16 start CHA with Lucky feat, then 1 ASI +2 CHA, 1 ASI Alert feat.

Meaning you get 18 CHA so you get +9 to Initiative.
Start first, bonus action Dash towards your target, cast Heighened Dominate Person, use Lucky if really bad luck.
If allowed by DM, transmit directly "Forfeit match" or "Abandon".
Otherwise, first turn: "Do Nothing", "Run in Circles" then turn after, use action to take precise control and make him forfeit.

After the match, consume slots to replenish a 5th lvl.
It just so happens that you have 3*lvl3 and 3*lvl4 spells, each bringing 3 and 4 points, and you need 7 to create a 5th lvl slot.
Well, there are 4 fights.

How good is that? ;)

(or Sorcerer 11 Psionic 1, right? ;))

Variant, to win only one fight:
Bard 9, Wizard Divination2, again with Alert and Lucky, plus any additional level somewhere. Just to be extra sure you start first (Bard brings +2 to Initiative from Jack of All Trade, +1d4 from Guidance) and you really land this Dominate Person.
Obviously Psionic 1 would break things hard here with Celerity Focus bringing advantage on initiative checks.

But Psionic would break so many things in so many situations anyways... XD (don't worry, I stop the off-topic right now).

Not that with a lenient DM, Paladin 2 / Fighter 2 / Sorcerer or Bard 8 would have even an easier time. Just use "Command" spell with one word verb "Forfeit" or "Abandon" and you're all good. Fighter is here only if you want Action Surge to be really really sure. ;)
(would be far-stretched though: such an act would actually require the person to speak, whereas all commands given in example are actually physical movement/interactions only, hinting at the kind of authorized interactions).

Finieous
2016-02-01, 08:51 PM
Food for thought:
IF it's agreed that the combatants can forfeit the fight, here is a sure-win build. :)

Start first, bonus action Dash towards your target, cast Heighened Dominate Person, use Lucky if really bad luck.


Problem is, the gate opens and you can't see your target. Next thing you know, even with your +8 Cha save, you've got a 73% chance of being a halibut.

RickAllison
2016-02-01, 09:09 PM
Problem is, the gate opens and you can't see your target. Next thing you know, even with your +8 Cha save, you've got a 73% chance of being a halibut.

Well that's exciting. This could be a popular event for Aarakocra viewers. Mmmmmmmm, halibut.

Finieous
2016-02-02, 12:29 AM
Last update, assuming I don't pick all my skills and spells.

My aarakocra moon druid 10/rogue 2:

Str 8
Dex 16 (+2 race)
Con 14 (+1 feat)
Int 12
Wis 16 (+1 race)
Cha 10

Feats: Resilient (Con), Mobile

Skills: Perception (Exp) +11, Stealth (Exp) +11 (+21 with PwT)

Magic Item: Cloak of Elvenkind (Advantage on Dex (Stealth), Disadvantage on Wis (Perception) to spot me)

In the end, I think this is going to be more useful in more fights with this setup than Eversmoking Bottle or Staff of the Python. Though I really wanted that giant constrictor snake.

RulesJD
2016-02-02, 12:59 AM
I don't understand. It explicitly says a veil of shadows and silence. Are you saying this is actually, like, metaphorical or something?

BTW, those pixies force a Charisma save, newt. :smallbiggrin:

Yes, it is. You don't get to replicate the functions of Darkness + Silence with Pass Without Trace. Sure I can't "track" you, but I can damn sure see you. I can't emphasize this enough, Hide does not equal Invisibility.

Second, and this is in response to several different posters:

There is a difference between a monster's spell casting stat, and the saving throw of a spell. "The pixie's innate spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 12)" doesn't mean that every save against the Pixie's spell is Charisma. It means the spell save DC is based off the Pixies Proficiency + Charisma score. The spell "Polymorph" is still a Wisdom save, which the Wizard will be proficient in.

I don't care about Pixies because of Greater Invisibility. They can't cast Polymorph on what they can't see. I simply fly around (broom of flying) until I find the Druid, then hit it with some Chill Touch at advantage to force Concentration saves and disable healing. Druid isn't proficient in Con saves so that wont take long.

The goal of the Wizard is to conserve spell slots to last the 4 rounds. The particular enemy their facing doesn't really matter given my spell selection above.

Malifice
2016-02-02, 01:02 AM
I'm sorry but if you're talking level 12, a Wizard is going to trump all. The level 5 and above Wizard spells are simply too powerful. Can debate whether Abjuration, Divination, or Evocation will be stronger, but given the short rest/long rest constraints I would go with Abjuration for the +proficiency to Counterspell and the ability to ritual the Abjuration ward back up. Evocation would be nice for the Magic Missile + Counterspell cheese of stupid high damage with Magic Missile, but honestly there's better ways of ending a fight.

Contingency would of course be cast with Greater Invisibility (can't counterspell what you can't see) or a Resilient Sphere. After the first round presumably I could size up the competition and decide what to slot in it after the short rest Arcane Recovery for Contingency.

After that it's a matter of Wall of Forcing the competition in place and then just doing whatever you want. Alternatively, Animate Objects -> 10 tiny objects. Will hit hard enough to wreck any concentration and each get opportunity attacks (if they try to move closer to the Wizard) even through Darkness because of their Blindsight.

For fights where I didn't feel like wasting a 5th level slot to auto-win, I would Conjure Minor Elementals and summon fire mephits. Each casts Heat Metal on the armor & weapon.

Then of course there's the ultimate cheese of Rope Trick and poking out to blast the enemy. Phantasmal Force against any non-Int based class will be ruinous and give me plenty of time to get non-concentration buffs up for particularly well built classes (Mirror Image + Blink).

My Aaracrocka Favored soul Sorcerer 7/ Paladin 2/ BM Fighter 3 would give this a run for its money. Flaming greatsword if I cant have Harizwan. Its invisible (greater) and flying up and away from any walls of force on turn 1. It also has a see invisibilty cast.

It lands next to you, action surges, and attacks four times with a greatsword (spamming +4d8 smites and sup dice) at advantage. It spams accurate strike if it misses (to add +1d8 to the attack roll), or tripping/ menacing strike (+1d8 to the damage if it hits. No shield spell vs an invisible attacker, good luck making any of the Con saves. It then casts a quickened invisibility and flies away with the rest of its movement, or a quickened greenflame blade for a 5th attack if youre looking pretty sick after the first 4 attacks.

I would need to hit with 3/5 attacks to pretty much guarantee a kill on the wizard. Three hits = (9d6+15d8+9) or around 100 points of damage (re-rolling 1's and 2's) vs (12d6+24 HP) or around 72 HP assuming Con 14.

An Aaracocka Sorcerer 7/ Monk 5 does similar with stunning fist, then using its turn of you being stunned to strip you of your spell components/ arcane focus.

MaxWilson
2016-02-02, 01:12 AM
It spams accurate strike if it misses (to add +1d8 to the attack roll), or tripping/ menacing strike (+1d8 to the damage if it hits. No shield spell vs an invisible attacker

That's not true. It may not make sense, but Shield triggers on a hit--there is no requirement that you be able to see the attacker.

Not sure what you mean by "flaming greatsword," but a Flame Tongue is rare, not uncommon. You can't have one in this tournament.

Finieous
2016-02-02, 01:15 AM
Yes, it is. You don't get to replicate the functions of Darkness + Silence with Pass Without Trace. Sure I can't "track" you, but I can damn sure see you. I can't emphasize this enough, Hide does not equal Invisibility.


I don't know where you're getting this. Hiding makes you both unseen and unheard. See SRD 93 and 94.



Second, and this is in response to several different posters:

There is a difference between a monster's spell casting stat, and the saving throw of a spell. "The pixie's innate spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 12)" doesn't mean that every save against the Pixie's spell is Charisma. It means the spell save DC is based off the Pixies Proficiency + Charisma score. The spell "Polymorph" is still a Wisdom save, which the Wizard will be proficient in.


Ah, I think you're right about that. My bad.



I don't care about Pixies because of Greater Invisibility. They can't cast Polymorph on what they can't see. I simply fly around (broom of flying) until I find the Druid, then hit it with some Chill Touch at advantage to force Concentration saves and disable healing. Druid isn't proficient in Con saves so that wont take long.


* Great Invisibility lasts one minute.
* How do you find me?
* I took Resilient (Con).



The goal of the Wizard is to conserve spell slots to last the 4 rounds. The particular enemy their facing doesn't really matter given my spell selection above.

You're not going to be conserving spell slots. Quite the opposite LOL.

Malifice
2016-02-02, 01:35 AM
That's not true. It may not make sense, but Shield triggers on a hit--there is no requirement that you be able to see the attacker.

How can you use a reaction to a trigger you are unaware of?


Not sure what you mean by "flaming greatsword," but a Flame Tongue is rare, not uncommon. You can't have one in this tournament.

Sorry AFB.

Im actually liking half Orc (greataxe) Favored soul sorcerer 6, Paladin 2, BM fighter 4 on a broom of flying. Str 16, Cha 18.

Invisible, hiding, see invisible and flying to start.

Uses its action to land a heightened hold person (DC 16 wisdom save at disadvantage). If it fails, it quickens an invisiblity as its bonus action and moves. If it succeeds, it moves to the target and uses action surge for another action (2 attacks, all auto crits at advantage from hold person, no shield spell possible), and spams a quickened greenflame blade (auto crit at advantage) spamming smites and superiority dice on each hit.

Reasonably confident of landing 3 attacks for a total of (9d12+34d8+9) damage (re-roll 1's and 2's).

RulesJD
2016-02-02, 02:20 AM
How can you use a reaction to a trigger you are unaware of?



Sorry AFB.

Im actually liking half Orc (greataxe) Favored soul sorcerer 6, Paladin 2, BM fighter 4 on a broom of flying. Str 16, Cha 18.

Invisible, hiding, see invisible and flying to start.

Uses its action to land a heightened hold person (DC 16 wisdom save at disadvantage). If it fails, it quickens an invisiblity as its bonus action and moves. If it succeeds, it moves to the target and uses action surge for another action (2 attacks, all auto crits at advantage from hold person, no shield spell possible), and spams a quickened greenflame blade (auto crit at advantage) spamming smites and superiority dice on each hit.

Reasonably confident of landing 3 attacks for a total of (9d12+34d8+9) damage (re-roll 1's and 2's).

I'm sorry, but your DM has been WAY too generous with you.

1. You don't get to re-roll 1s and 2s for Smite damage. Only weapon damage.

2. You can't use Quicken to cast a spell as a Bonus action if you've already cast a spell on your turn.

3. Abjuration Wizard has a +29hp ward up.

4. Depending on the start distance, would just Counterspell your Greater Invis, but it seems with start 80ft away so you'd be flying 30ft and invisible. You can't cover the 80ft of distance in one turn even with Dashing, especially if you use your turn to cast Greater Invis.

5. The Wall of Force wouldn't be upside down. Against a bird wearing the armor with a Greater sword, it wouldn't even be cast. I would Conjure Minor Elementals (Fire Mephits) and Heat Metal you to death/force you to drop your great sword. Would easily win.


I seriously can't understand how you all think Hide is = invisibility. This isn't WoW or some video game where you hit the stealth button and your turn invisible. Hiding Rules:

HIDING - When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence. You can't hide from a creature that can see you. and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet. In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.

I'm not getting why you think you'll be "hidden" as you run across an open arena from a gate that can be seen from the other side, especially without invisibility.

Malifice
2016-02-02, 04:08 AM
I'm sorry, but your DM has been WAY too generous with you.

1. You don't get to re-roll 1s and 2s for Smite damage. Only weapon damage.

Nope. From the SRD:

When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll.

Says nothing about 'weapon die'. All damage die for an attack. There is a tweet that agrees, and a seperate one that disagrees. By strict RAW, its all dice for an attack made with a melee weapon. Not weapon damage dice, all dice.


You can't use Quicken to cast a spell as a Bonus action if you've already cast a spell on your turn.

You can if its a cantrip. Like greenflame blade.


3. Abjuration Wizard has a +29hp ward up.

On average rolls, with 3 hits, he still dies.


4. Depending on the start distance, would just Counterspell your Greater Invis, but it seems with start 80ft away so you'd be flying 30ft and invisible. You can't cover the 80ft of distance in one turn even with Dashing, especially if you use your turn to cast Greater Invis.

Its cast pre battle. No counter spelling it. You also cant counterspell the hold person as im casting it while invisible and you cant see me. Or If you can, I just counterspell your counterspell.


5. The Wall of Force wouldn't be upside down. Against a bird wearing the armor with a Greater sword, it wouldn't even be cast. I would Conjure Minor Elementals (Fire Mephits) and Heat Metal you to death/force you to drop your great sword. Would easily win.

Heat metal? Lol. Firstly the mephits cant see the sword (its invisible) so they cant target it as per the spell. Secondly - should they somehow be able to, I'll take the 2d8 damage each round. It doesnt stack from multiple castings. Multiple versions of the same spell dont make the armor any hotter. And thirdly, if I DO drop the sword (DC10 Con save at +6), i'll simply use my free object interaction to pick it up again on my turn, and then do what I said I would do.

You win initiaitive, summon a ton of magma mephits (using up your concentration slot and becoming visible yourself) and the Mephits... dont do anything because they cant see or hear me. Thier passive perception is 10. My stealth check is (on average) 16. Im hidden from them in my invisiblity.

Now its my turn. I fly 50' towards you (while still invisible) and cast hold person (heightened). Make a DC15 Wisdom save (at disadvantage). I then action surge to close the remaining distance (taking the dash action) and cast a quickened greenflame blade (using my greataxe). It should (advantage, as youre held) hit (and auto ctit) dealing (3d12) axe/ half orc + (16d8) greeflame blade, smite, superiority dice + 3 (strength) - re-rolling all 1s and 2s. That adds up to around 100 points of damage. Youre also prone (being paralysed you automatically fail your str save vs tripping attack). No shield (youre paralysed) and concentration on the mephits is now down and they vanish.

Its now your turn. Youre paralysed and prone, but get to make a wisdom save at the end of your turn to break free (and cant take any other actions). DC 15, so (assuming +6 Wisdom save) youre a 60 percent chance to snap out.

If youre not paralysed on your turn Ill cast a quickened bless for +1d4 to hit followed by two melee attacks (spamming sup dice to add +1d8 to hit on each with precise strike). d20+7+1d8+1d4 to hit with each attack (at advantage as youre still prone). Only one has to land and you die (Ill smite) if youre not dead already after round 1.

If you botch the save vs hold person, youre cactus.

If I win initiative (odds are I will), I can simply move 50' on my broom, and cast a heightened hold person (invisible so no counterspelling). DC 15 Wisdom save at disadvantage. If it goes off, its action surge + dash + quickened greenflame blade time (auto crit).


I seriously can't understand how you all think Hide is = invisibility. This isn't WoW or some video game where you hit the stealth button and your turn invisible. Hiding Rules:

Its not. I'm invisible AND hiding (hiding 'in' the invisibility as per the invisible condition). Invisibility really just makes me immune to most of your spells. Hiding is just the cherry on top. I get +6 to Stealth vs your passive perception.

There is a solid argument for a splash of 2 levels of Rogue in here for cunning action (bonus action dash, hide and disengage) for a 100' per round move speed and expertise in stealth (stealth score of 20 - meaning if you ahvent got a passive perception of 21 you cant even target my square without a lucky guess or first taking the search action).


I'm not getting why you think you'll be "hidden" as you run across an open arena from a gate that can be seen from the other side, especially without invisibility.

The Orc is invisible. It is hiding in the invisiblity (as per the invisible condition). Assuming a roll of 10 for stealth that a total of 16.

If you havent got a passive perception of 17 or better, youre not spotting the Orc without taking the search action.

Citan
2016-02-02, 04:53 AM
Problem is, the gate opens and you can't see your target. Next thing you know, even with your +8 Cha save, you've got a 73% chance of being a halibut.
I think you're nitpicking here. Why should the match start as soon as gate begins opening, and not why it's fully opened and a horn blows the signal?

Considering that, in your case, any class that has a way to hide itself would be very much advantaged.
Become invisible (or Earth Elemental) while the gate opens, quietly go around while your opponent is still waiting for you to come out then surprise kill him.

No really, don't seem fair. :)

Or, both opponents use a similar tactics, then the watchers have to wait for a minute or so before seeing any action. What a thrill!!



Second, and this is in response to several different posters:

I don't care about Pixies because of Greater Invisibility. They can't cast Polymorph on what they can't see. I simply fly around (broom of flying) until I find the Druid, then hit it with some Chill Touch at advantage to force Concentration saves and disable healing. Druid isn't proficient in Con saves so that wont take long.

The goal of the Wizard is to conserve spell slots to last the 4 rounds. The particular enemy their facing doesn't really matter given my spell selection above.
Is it just a miss or did you delibaretly forget my points?
If you want to "wait", this becomes a fight of attrition. In a fight of attrition, you'll lose every day against a Druid.
Because both his Wild Shape and Conjuration spells can last up to 1 hour, while your spells last 1mn most.

Also, as I said, Pixies have no obligation to be stupid. Some could get invisible also while the others harass you.
Not even talking about my all other points. :)

Corran
2016-02-02, 07:03 AM
You can if its a cantrip. Like greenflame blade.

Nope, the only way you can use quickened spell, is if you dont cast a spell with your normal action.

I can see why many people think that quickening a cantrip and casting a spell with the normal action (not RAW) is the same as quickening a spell and casting a cantrip with the normal action (RAW), especially since quickened costs the same 2 sp no matter what you quicken, but it's not the same. The difference is that when you use quickened spell by RAW, you cannot apply any other metaagic to the spell you use during this round, which is a pretty important restriction as far as the usefulness of quickened goes.

ps: You can cast shield against an invisible opponent who hits you with an attack, there is nothing in the rules saying that you cannot. The silliness about this spell is not because you can use it against invisible opponent, is because of what its trigger is. If its trigger was that you see that you are being attacked, but you dont know if you ll get hit, that would solve a lot of the issues regarding the silliness of how you use this spell. Ofc then it wouldnt be such a good spell.

Malifice
2016-02-02, 08:13 AM
Nope, the only way you can use quickened spell, is if you dont cast a spell with your normal action.

You appear to be correct. Ill definately have to add 2 levels of rogue in there for cunning action.


ps: You can cast shield against an invisible opponent who hits you with an attack, there is nothing in the rules saying that you cannot.

You have to be aware of the thing that triggers the action surely.

Id have no problem with a caster casting shield before the attack is declared (assuming he knows there is an enemy in the area) but he couldnt possibly know about the attack from an invisible critter until after he got clobbered.

Hes unaware he's getting hit until he actually gets hit. Surely the spell reflects an 'oh crap' moment of 'If I dont do something this is gonna hit me'.

Also, im altering my build. Vuman Paladin 2, Sorcerer 6, Rogue 2, Fighter 2. Broom of flying.

Expertise in perception and stealth. Also has arcana and athletics. GWS and Defence +1 AC styles. Fighter at 1st (str and con saves). Wears medium armor of some kind. Alert feat and +2 Cha. Str 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Wis 12, Int 8, Cha 16. Owns several greatswords.

He starts the battle with mirror image, see invisibility, invsibility (Stealth +10) active. +7 initiative.

If he wins initiative he asseses the battlefield (perception +9, see invsibility) then flies 50', before casting a heightened hold person (DC 15, disadvantage) on his enemy. If it goes off, he dashes (bonus action) 50' to melee range, then action surges for two attacks dropping both 4th level slots for +5d8 smites on each attack (both autocrits). Each hit deals 2d12+10d8+3 damage.

If hold person doesnt land, he moves behind total cover and uses the hide action as a bonus action.

SpawnOfMorbo
2016-02-02, 08:14 AM
Nope. From the SRD:

When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll.

Says nothing about 'weapon die'. All damage die for an attack. There is a tweet that agrees, and a seperate one that disagrees. By strict RAW, its all dice for an attack made with a melee weapon. Not weapon damage dice, all dice.


Smite is called out as extra damage and not weapon damage.

Devs even confirmed that it doesn't work on rerolling extra damage from smite or sneak attack or whatever.

You are wrong about this in both RAW (what the book says) and RAI (what the book says and what the devs said).

Edit

Divine Smite

Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a
melee weapon attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon’s damage.

Citan
2016-02-02, 08:19 AM
Nope, the only way you can use quickened spell, is if you dont cast a spell with your normal action.

I can see why many people think that quickening a cantrip and casting a spell with the normal action (not RAW) is the same as quickening a spell and casting a cantrip with the normal action (RAW), especially since quickened costs the same 2 sp no matter what you quicken, but it's not the same. The difference is that when you use quickened spell by RAW, you cannot apply any other metaagic to the spell you use during this round, which is a pretty important restriction as far as the usefulness of quickened goes.

ps: You can cast shield against an invisible opponent who hits you with an attack, there is nothing in the rules saying that you cannot. The silliness about this spell is not because you can use it against invisible opponent, is because of what its trigger is. If its trigger was that you see that you are being attacked, but you dont know if you ll get hit, that would solve a lot of the issues regarding the silliness of how you use this spell. Ofc then it wouldnt be such a good spell.
I think you're right on the fact you cannot cast a spell then quicken a cantrip, but your reasoning is too fast-forward for me. Let's see if I understood you well. :)

In my understanding, what prevents that is the exact wording of PHB:
""A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."
I think we all agree that the limitation apply whether you cast the bonus action spell at the beginning or at the end of the turn (otherwise it would be very easy to circumvent: cast normal spell first then bonus action spell after).

So, if you first cast a normal spell, you just cannot after that cast a cantrip, even with Quicken, because it would create a situation in direct violation with the PHB rule.

So, indeed, you have to apply Quicken on the spell if you want to cast it along with a cantrip during one given turn, hence indeed you cannot apply another Metamagic such as Heightened at the same time.
I suppose it's what you meant by "which is a pretty important restriction as far as the usefulness of quickened goes".

Corran
2016-02-02, 08:34 AM
@Citan: Yes, you explained it perfectly.

@Malifice: You leave yourself open to darkness cheese. You need either devil's sight or true seeing, or some way to get blindesight/blindesense (forget which is the good one).

Finieous
2016-02-02, 08:52 AM
I seriously can't understand how you all think Hide is = invisibility. This isn't WoW or some video game where you hit the stealth button and your turn invisible. Hiding Rules:


I don't understand how you can literally claim that you can "definitely" see someone who is explicitly, by definition of the rules, UNSEEN! I mean, I really have no idea where you're coming from with this.



HIDING - When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence. You can't hide from a creature that can see you. and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position.


Thank you for quoting this section of the rules. So the gate is closed, giving me total cover. I cast my 2nd-level spell (same as invisibility) and Hide, making the necessary Dexterity (Stealth) check at +21 with advantage. At this point, I am literally concealed in a veil of shadows and silence. Now, when the gate opens, you can try to spot me. You can make a Wisdom (Perception) test if you actively search for signs of my presence (there aren't many such signs, due to the spell, which is why you have disadvantage on the check). If you or someone else discovers me, I stop hiding, or I do something to reveal my position (like casting a spell to turn you into a halibut), I'm automatically revealed and THEN you can see me.



An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet. In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.


Yes, in this regard, a high Stealth and Pass without Trace is better than invisibility, since even with invisibility you still have to hide to remain both unseen and unheard. And yes, in some cases, the DM might rule that you don't see me EVEN WHEN I come out of hiding. For example, if I come out of hiding behind you, cast a spell, and then use a bonus action to hide again the DM may rule that you never see me.



I'm not getting why you think you'll be "hidden" as you run across an open arena from a gate that can be seen from the other side, especially without invisibility.

First, invisibility, as you noted, just means that you are automatically unseen and so can automatically try to hide. The closed gate gives me total cover, so I am also unseen and can try to hide. If there were no cover or concealment, I do not have any ability that allows me to vanish or hide in plain sight, so I could not do so. At that point, I become hidden by using the normal rules (I use a bonus action, I make a +21 Stealth check with advantage). Second, I don't necessarily "run across an open arena from a gate." Maybe I slink along the walls in my veil of shadows and silence. Maybe I fly in my veil of shadows and silence. Maybe I belly crawl up to the bridge in my veil of shadows and silence. Maybe I go air elemental and fly, or maybe I go earth elemental and earth glide. You have no idea who I am or what I'm doing, because you can't see me. Why you think you would be able to see a character who is extraordinarily stealthy, magically cloaked, and using all the standard rules for stealth, I really have no idea. You seem to think the invisibility spell and silence spells are the only way to remain unseen and unheard, but the rules explicitly contradict you.

Douche
2016-02-02, 09:03 AM
Ya know, not to throw a wrench in this whole discussion, but wouldn't you leave footprints if the floor is covered in loosely packed sand, as shown in the image? That'd make it pretty easy to determine where an invisible person is. As for broomsticks, what's the common determination on that? Does it turn invisible as well? The spells says "wearing or carrying" but really, the broom is carrying you, so....

On the other hand, that makes Pass without Trace a lot more powerful, as the spell specifies that you leave no tracks. As for the shadow/silence dispute; it's not a silence spell.... It's a personal silence. Your steps dont make noise. It doesn't give you any combat advantage. The shadows wouldn't really help you in the middle of a sunny, sandy arena - but it would certainly help you take cover under the bridge or dart between pillars, so that would be quite helpful.

Anyway, I laughed at this


I don't understand. It explicitly says a veil of shadows and silence. Are you saying this is actually, like, metaphorical or something?

Finieous
2016-02-02, 09:11 AM
As for broomsticks, what's the common determination on that? Does it turn invisible as well? The spells says "wearing or carrying" but really, the broom is carrying you, so....


I was wondering about this, given the comparison of winged boots and brooms of flying. Both uncommon items, but boots have a duration. Is there a downside of the broom that balances to the two?

Malifice
2016-02-02, 09:53 AM
Smite is called out as extra damage and not weapon damage.

Devs even confirmed that it doesn't work on rerolling extra damage from smite or sneak attack or whatever.

You are wrong about this in both RAW (what the book says) and RAI (what the book says and what the devs said).

Edit

Divine Smite

Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a
melee weapon attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon’s damage.

GWS doesn't say 'weapon damage' bro. By RAW it's the damage of a Melee weapon attack. Like an unarmed strike (not a weapon) natural Attack (not a weapon) or smite dice.

Smite damage dice plus weapon damage dice = the damage of the 'melee weapon attack'. Remember - a melee weapon attack isn't necessarily an attack with a 'weapon'.

It's RAW legal. And RAI legal according to one tweet (but contradicted by another).

There is a difference between:

A weapons damage
The damage of an attack
The damage of a melee weapon attack (like a slam. Bite or sword)

Finieous
2016-02-02, 10:08 AM
This setup is like a submarine warfare simulation. Malifice, how do your slots/points hold up over four fights?

RulesJD
2016-02-02, 10:24 AM
Thank you for quoting this section of the rules. So the gate is closed, giving me total cover. *snip*.

Then the gate opens and you are NO LONGER BEHIND TOTAL COVER. I seriously can't understand what the hangup is. You don't get physical shadows or silence effects, otherwise you would be able to move up to an enemy and prevent spell casting.

No, you are not hidden any longer after the gate comes up. There is a ton of leeway with Hiding, but being in broad daylight (assuming this fight happens in the day time) after the gate raises means you aren't stealthed.

SpawnOfMorbo
2016-02-02, 10:33 AM
GWS doesn't say 'weapon damage' bro. By RAW it's the damage of a Melee weapon attack. Like an unarmed strike (not a weapon) natural Attack (not a weapon) or smite dice.

Smite damage dice plus weapon damage dice = the damage of the 'melee weapon attack'. Remember - a melee weapon attack isn't necessarily an attack with a 'weapon'.

It's RAW legal. And RAI legal according to one tweet (but contradicted by another).

There is a difference between:

A weapons damage
The damage of an attack
The damage of a melee weapon attack (like a slam. Bite or sword)

It specifically says.

When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or 2. The weapon must have the two-handed or Versitile properties for you to go an this benefit.

Now if you want to add things to this and pretend that it says that you can apply it to extra damage or features from other sources, whatever, that's your houserule.

The only thing GWF talks about is melee weapons. You are adding new elements to this feature by bringing in smite or sneak attack because it wasn't written with the idea to be used with smite or sneak attack (since you can't understand RAW here is even the RAI http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/13/great-weapon-fighting-rerolling-smite-hex-and-hunters-mark/)

Adding anything else to GWF is like the people who say invisible let's you automatically hide. You are just making stuff up just like they were.

Smite isn't damage that comes from a melee weapon. Smite is extra damage you can apply to a melee attack. Smite isn't weapon damage and this doesn't apply to GWF.

This has been settled by reading the book without adding more rules to it and by someone asking JC the RAI (which was needed because people tried to perverse the RAW).

Edit

To make it easier to understand...

Is smite a melee weapon attack that you use in two hands? No.

GWF only applies to weapon damage from melee attacks used in 2 hands.

Douche
2016-02-02, 10:40 AM
Then the gate opens and you are NO LONGER BEHIND TOTAL COVER. I seriously can't understand what the hangup is. You don't get physical shadows or silence effects, otherwise you would be able to move up to an enemy and prevent spell casting.

No, you are not hidden any longer after the gate comes up. There is a ton of leeway with Hiding, but being in broad daylight (assuming this fight happens in the day time) after the gate raises means you aren't stealthed.

The description of Pass without Trace is flavor text that implies that you can't be heard. It's not implying in any way that you can run up and hug someone and that makes them silenced, and I don't believe anyone made that claim - nor did they imply that it would self-silence other spells which would be detrimental to them. All it means is that your footsteps can't be heard. And I don't even believe that it's total silence, or else the spell would say something about removing disadvantage on stealth for people in heavy armor.

I agree that it'd be hard to not be immediately spotted out of the gate, but both parties suffer from that.

Finieous
2016-02-02, 10:43 AM
Then the gate opens and you are NO LONGER BEHIND TOTAL COVER. I seriously can't understand what the hangup is. You don't get physical shadows or silence effects, otherwise you would be able to move up to an enemy and prevent spell casting.


I'm behind total cover when I hide. I don't have to be behind total cover to continue hiding (that would be pretty silly lol) -- I just can't hide when you're looking at me.

The "veil of shadows and silence" granted by my 2nd-level spell is what, exactly? The magical camouflage granted by my elven cloak that causes me to blend into my surroundings is what, exactly?



No, you are not hidden any longer after the gate comes up. There is a ton of leeway with Hiding, but being in broad daylight (assuming this fight happens in the day time) after the gate raises means you aren't stealthed.

You can continue asserting this all you want, but the rules do not support your earnest assertions. Really, I have no idea where you're getting it. I'm using magic (both a spell and a magic item) and extraordinary skill to be supernaturally sneaky, and the rules fully, 100% support this. I'm sorry if it's inconvenient for you.

Finieous
2016-02-02, 10:44 AM
The description of Pass without Trace is flavor text that implies that you can't be heard. It's not implying in any way that you can run up and hug someone and that makes them silenced, and I don't believe anyone made that claim - nor did they imply that it would self-silence other spells which would be detrimental to them.

Is that what he was getting at? LOL. Yes, PwT is not a Silence spell.

Malifice
2016-02-02, 10:56 AM
It specifically says.

When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or 2. The weapon must have the two-handed or Versitile properties for you to go an this benefit.

Yeah read it again. It doesnt say [melee weapon] damage dice.

It says damage die on [an attack you make with a melee weapon].

When I smite with a greatsword, I'm rolling a damage die on an attack I have made with a weapon.

Read the ability bro.


This setup is like a submarine warfare simulation. Malifice, how do your slots/points hold up over four fights?

Depending on smiting pretty good. Actio surge comes back each fight (im assming youre allowing short rests between fights) and invisibility and hold person only require 2nd level slots (and I have up to 4ths).

Smites burn through them like candy though.

That said, this build can move 50' plus dash 50' (bonus action) then attack 4 times with action surge (smiting if needed) at initaitive +7. So it can deal out some pain.

RulesJD
2016-02-02, 10:59 AM
I'm behind total cover when I hide. I don't have to be behind total cover to continue hiding (that would be pretty silly lol) -- I just can't hide when you're looking at me.

The "veil of shadows and silence" granted by my 2nd-level spell is what, exactly? The magical camouflage granted by my elven cloak that causes me to blend into my surroundings is what, exactly?



You can continue asserting this all you want, but the rules do not support your earnest assertions. Really, I have no idea where you're getting it. I'm using magic (both a spell and a magic item) and extraordinary skill to be supernaturally sneaky, and the rules fully, 100% support this. I'm sorry if it's inconvenient for you.

No, no they don't. If you hide behind a wall, and then the wall disappears, the enemy now sees you. The rules are explicit about what happens when the enemy SEES you. You aren't invisible. I'm sorry you don't like that your +brazillion stealth check doesn't let you be invisible, but them's the rules.

If you hide behind the gate when it's closed, you are Hidden. When the gates raises, you can be physically seen because there is nothing obscuring the line of sight between you and the enemy (near as I can tell from the provided map). At that point, sans being Invisible/Darkness, you can be physically seen by the enemy. Because you can be physically seen, you are no longer Hidden. This is especially true because you are in Combat, and the enemy will be on alert looking directly out of the gate. Those are the exact words of the Hide rules.

No, PWT and Hiding do not replicate Invisibility.

RulesJD
2016-02-02, 11:01 AM
Yeah read it again. It doesnt say [melee weapon] damage dice.

It says damage die on [an attack you make with a melee weapon].

When I smite with a greatsword, I'm rolling a damage die on an attack I have made with a weapon.

Read the ability bro.



Depending on smiting pretty good. Actio surge comes back each fight (im assming youre allowing short rests between fights) and invisibility and hold person only require 2nd level slots (and I have up to 4ths).

Smites burn through them like candy though.

That said, this build can move 50' plus dash 50' (bonus action) then attack 4 times with action surge (smiting if needed) at initaitive +7. So it can deal out some pain.

We have read it. So have the designers of the game. The designers of the game say you're wrong. If you want to choose to ignore the rules (like I do regarding Empowered Evocation/Elemental Affinity), then good for you. But in a game where the rules matter, no, you don't get to re-roll smite damage.

Malifice
2016-02-02, 11:04 AM
I'm behind total cover when I hide. I don't have to be behind total cover to continue hiding (that would be pretty silly lol) -- I just can't hide when you're looking at me.

The "veil of shadows and silence" granted by my 2nd-level spell is what, exactly? The magical camouflage granted by my elven cloak that causes me to blend into my surroundings is what, exactly?



You can continue asserting this all you want, but the rules do not support your earnest assertions. Really, I have no idea where you're getting it. I'm using magic (both a spell and a magic item) and extraordinary skill to be supernaturally sneaky, and the rules fully, 100% support this. I'm sorry if it's inconvenient for you.

The rules dont support a hidden rogue staying hidden when I lift up the box covering him and look right at him.

Just take 3 levels of [caster] for invisibility.

Corran
2016-02-02, 11:05 AM
No, no they don't. If you hide behind a wall, and then the wall disappears, the enemy now sees you. The rules are explicit about what happens when the enemy SEES you. You aren't invisible. I'm sorry you don't like that your +brazillion stealth check doesn't let you be invisible, but them's the rules.

If you hide behind the gate when it's closed, you are Hidden. When the gates raises, you can be physically seen because there is nothing obscuring the line of sight between you and the enemy (near as I can tell from the provided map). At that point, sans being Invisible/Darkness, you can be physically seen by the enemy. Because you can be physically seen, you are no longer Hidden. This is especially true because you are in Combat, and the enemy will be on alert looking directly out of the gate. Those are the exact words of the Hide rules.

No, PWT and Hiding do not replicate Invisibility.
Pretty much what he says.


We have read it. So have the designers of the game. The designers of the game say you're wrong. If you want to choose to ignore the rules (like I do regarding Empowered Evocation/Elemental Affinity), then good for you. But in a game where the rules matter, no, you don't get to re-roll smite damage.
Actually the RAW in the phb allow rerolling smites, sneak attack, etc...
It was later clarified by errata or quoates or tweets, or I dont know by what, that this is not the RAI.
Though RAW in the phb are pretty clear and allow rerolls on everything.

Malifice
2016-02-02, 11:05 AM
We have read it. So have the designers of the game. The designers of the game say you're wrong. If you want to choose to ignore the rules (like I do regarding Empowered Evocation/Elemental Affinity), then good for you. But in a game where the rules matter, no, you don't get to re-roll smite damage.

Nah man, youre wrong. The RAW supports what Im saying and there are two tweets about the RAI - one in favor and one against.

So its all the RAW and 1 RAI to me, 1 RAI to you. I win.

Crawford says no. Mearls says yes:

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/09/great-weapon-fighting-and-smite/

Finieous
2016-02-02, 11:10 AM
Depending on smiting pretty good. Actio surge comes back each fight (im assming youre allowing short rests between fights) and invisibility and hold person only require 2nd level slots (and I have up to 4ths).

Smites burn through them like candy though.

That said, this build can move 50' plus dash 50' (bonus action) then attack 4 times with action surge (smiting if needed) at initaitive +7. So it can deal out some pain.

You're effectively an 8th level caster, right? So your slots are 4/3/3/2 and you have 7 sorcery points. That could ordinarily get you an extra 2nd and 3rd level spell, but you seem to be using them on metamagic. I know **** about sorcerers, so there may be some way you're replenishing these.

In your first post, you seemed to be doing this:

Greater Invisibility
See Invisibility
4 4d8 smites (?)
Quickened Invisibility (2 sp)
Quickened Greenflame Blade (2 sp)

So that's 1 4th-level spell, 2 2nd-level spells, 4 (?) 3rd-level slots, and 4 SP. That would leave you with 4 1st-level spells, 1 2nd-level spell, -1 3rd level spells, 1 4th-level spell (or more plausibly 0 3rd, 0 4th) and 3 SP after your first round of the first fight.

Then you raised your game...

Greater Invisibility
See Invisibility
Heightened Hold Person
Quickened Greenflame Blade
Smite (4d8?)
Quickened Bless
Smite
Heightened Hold Person
Quickened Greenflame Blade

And later added Mirror Image.

This is all theoretical anyway, but this seems like another example of a build dependent on long-rest resources that would have trouble getting through four fights. I think some kind of sorcerer/paladin nova build would be hell-on-wheels for one fight, I just don't think it has the endurance and efficiency you need for this setup.

Finieous
2016-02-02, 11:21 AM
The rules dont support a hidden rogue staying hidden when I lift up the box covering him and look right at him.


I certainly agree with this. You can't, in plain view, crawl under a box and hide, expecting to remain hidden when someone lifts up the box and looks at you. Now: If I didn't already know the rogue was under a specific box -- say, I think he's in a storeroom but I'm not sure where -- and he was magically shrouded and magically camouflaged by an elven cloak, I'd have no trouble believing that I lift his particular box, don't see him crouching there Frodo-style, and move on to the next box.

When the gate opens, you know where to look, but I'm not just hiding. I'm magically cloaked in a veil of shadows and silence and magically camouflaged to look like sand and stone. I've been studying the stealth rules and discussions more than I ever thought I would, and based on what I've read -- along with the fictional situation -- I don't see any support whatsoever for the idea that my opponent automatically sees me. We certainly wouldn't play it that way at any table I've sat at. If magical shadows and magical camouflage aren't enough to use Stealth without also having total cover, darkness, or invisibility, it seems rather less useful than anyone in my circle thought. I seem to be outvoted, though, so I'll politely concede and withdraw.

Oramac
2016-02-02, 11:22 AM
So we've got 4 pages of talk about a 1v1 match. If it's ok, I'd like to switch it up a bit.

What would you do for a 3v3 match on the Nagrand Arena (http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screenshots/small/112057.jpg) (google it if needed)?

For the sake of argument, let's say that flight is NOT allowed in this case.

Malifice
2016-02-02, 11:22 AM
Greater Invisibility
See Invisibility
4 4d8 smites (?)
Quickened Invisibility (2 sp)
Quickened Greenflame Blade (2 sp)

Nah man - Caster level 7 (Sorc 6, Palidin 2, fighter 2, Rogue 2) just invisibility and see invisibility pre cast. 2 x 2nds. I blow another one with hold person (heightened so also 3 SP, leaving me with 4).

I move 50' on the broom, cast hold person (heightened if the dude looks like he's good at wisdom saves). Ive now cast 3 x 2nd level spells. If HP lands, I [cunning action] dash and then action surge for 2 attacks at advantage, both auto crits, spamming smites (using a 4th and a 3rd level slot). If both hit the target takes 4d6+18d8+6 damage (re-rolling the 1's and 2's seems controversial).

Its highly unlikely that anything survives this. Leaving me [worst case] having expended 3 x 2nd level slots, 1 x 3rd and 1 x 4th and 3 SP.

I still have 2 x 3rds, 1 x 4th, all my 1sts and 4SP remaining.


This is all theoretical anyway, but this seems like another example of a build dependent on long-rest resources that would have trouble getting through four fights.

Assuming im all out of spell slots by fight 4, I still fly 50', have extra attack, action surge, expertise, cunning action and second wind to fall back on, plus cantrips.

My short rest/ at will resources are solid to say the least.

Douche
2016-02-02, 11:26 AM
So we've got 4 pages of talk about a 1v1 match. If it's ok, I'd like to switch it up a bit.

What would you do for a 3v3 match on the Nagrand Arena (http://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screenshots/small/112057.jpg) (google it if needed)?

For the sake of argument, let's say that flight is NOT allowed in this case.

I personally always found it hilarious to roll 3v3 with a Warrior, Death Knight, and Paladin. 3 heavy armor classes just ignore the other two while we go after the healer or the caster, then go after the other two at our leisure.

I can't even begin to speculate on how a 3v3 battle would play out in D&D though.

I like the Dalaran Arena (http://static.planetminecraft.com/files/resource_media/screenshot/1233/arena1_3253881.jpg) better though. Wasn't the Nagrand one just a PvE event? Dalaran was a PvP location.
http://static.planetminecraft.com/files/resource_media/screenshot/1233/arena1_3253881.jpg

It's a raised platform with stacked boxes on two opposite corners, and stairs on the other two opposite corners. You didn't have to stay on the raised platform either. I chose a Minecraft recreation to make it easier to digest.

Gwendol
2016-02-02, 11:30 AM
I'm behind total cover when I hide. I don't have to be behind total cover to continue hiding (that would be pretty silly lol) -- I just can't hide when you're looking at me.

The "veil of shadows and silence" granted by my 2nd-level spell is what, exactly? The magical camouflage granted by my elven cloak that causes me to blend into my surroundings is what, exactly?



You can continue asserting this all you want, but the rules do not support your earnest assertions. Really, I have no idea where you're getting it. I'm using magic (both a spell and a magic item) and extraordinary skill to be supernaturally sneaky, and the rules fully, 100% support this. I'm sorry if it's inconvenient for you.

Can't you be a wood elf druid? If so you have HiPS and as a druid should be able to manipulate the environment enough to grant yourself some obscuration.

Finieous
2016-02-02, 11:36 AM
Can't you be a wood elf druid? If so you have HiPS and as a druid should be able to manipulate the environment enough to grant yourself some obscuration.

Well, aarakocra with an elven cloak, or elf with a broom of flying. Whatever. I'm tired of arguing about the stealth rules in service to a theoretical PvP match. :smallbiggrin:

Oramac
2016-02-02, 11:46 AM
I like the Dalaran Arena (http://static.planetminecraft.com/files/resource_media/screenshot/1233/arena1_3253881.jpg) better though. Wasn't the Nagrand one just a PvE event? Dalaran was a PvP location.
http://static.planetminecraft.com/files/resource_media/screenshot/1233/arena1_3253881.jpg

Ugh. I always hated Dalaran Arena. My personal favorite is Tol'viron Arena (https://www.google.com/search?q=tol%27viron+arena&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjr_6K4w9nKAhVC82MKHTdIBqQQ_AUICCgC&biw=1055&bih=1024&dpr=0.9).

I used Nagrand above because it's the standard starting arena for the Tournament matches.

Douche
2016-02-02, 12:00 PM
If people actually make a 3v3 team, then I'll edit the OP to signify that the conversation has moved onto 3s.

Would be interesting to have RulesJD & Finieous be team captains and each member on their team makes a character :smallamused:

RickAllison
2016-02-02, 12:03 PM
I think the key division on the stealth debate has to do with the hiding rules. Based on the Hiding sidebar, I would say that you can't take the Hide action unless you are unseen (you can't break someone's line of sight if you are standing right in front of them), but that requirement does not remain for remaining hidden. It explicitly mentions "An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide." Trying to hide is not remaining hidden, the formation of the verb indicates it is a self-contained action where the unseen requirement comes into play. Once you are no longer unseen, that is when Perception comes into play, because the character is no longer out of visibility. If the hider was still unseen, there would be no point in Perception, you don't have the capability of seeing him at all!

Finieous
2016-02-02, 12:03 PM
Hell no, it's aggravating enough when it's just two people at a time rules-lawyering each other. :smallbiggrin:

Oramac
2016-02-02, 12:11 PM
Hell no, it's aggravating enough when it's just two people at a time rules-lawyering each other. :smallbiggrin:

I thought this might be the case. Just figured that 4 pages of "Wizard vs. The World" was getting a bit repetitive.

In any case, go forth and conquer!

MaxWilson
2016-02-02, 12:53 PM
I'm not getting why you think you'll be "hidden" as you run across an open arena from a gate that can be seen from the other side, especially without invisibility.

I wouldn't be planning on running across an open arena. It looked, from the screenshot, as if there were twisty corners and an exterior; at minimum there is a gate behind which you can hide instead of entering the arena.

I don't play WoW so I'm having to guess at the parameters of this battle. An ASCII map would help.

pibby
2016-02-02, 01:28 PM
I'd probably go with Swashbuckler (I don't think the archetype matters too much) Rogue 5/Fey Warlock 7 with Pact of the Blade. Cast Greater Invisibility and cheese every battle with the sequence of attacking and then using a Bonus Action to Hide. The magic item would be Winged Boots so that I can be hidden just about anywhere in the arena. Theoretically each battle should be done in under 2 minutes assuming no one is using the same tactic as me. But that's why we have Expertise in Perception as well as Stealth. Truesight or Blindsight shouldn't be a problem, I'll just have to attack rogues with ranged attacks. Hopefully I should be well hidden enough after every attack to not be caught in a Faerie Fire.

RulesJD
2016-02-02, 01:44 PM
Nah man, youre wrong. The RAW supports what Im saying and there are two tweets about the RAI - one in favor and one against.

So its all the RAW and 1 RAI to me, 1 RAI to you. I win.

Crawford says no. Mearls says yes:

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/09/great-weapon-fighting-and-smite/

Seriously, just stop.

No, neither RAW or RAI supports you. Do you even know who JC and Mearl are??? Do you know which one is the rules guy and which one isn't??

JC has CLEARLY stated that no, you don't get to re-roll smites, Hex, Hunter's Mark, etc. You ONLY get to re-roll WEAPON damage die, not any additional die.

The ONLY way you roll more die is if the weapon has an inherent extra die (Flame Tongue, etc). Other than that, you aren't 110% wrong. Crawford = Rules. Mearl = no rules.

You're wrong.

SpawnOfMorbo
2016-02-02, 03:34 PM
Seriously, just stop.

No, neither RAW or RAI supports you. Do you even know who JC and Mearl are??? Do you know which one is the rules guy and which one isn't??

JC has CLEARLY stated that no, you don't get to re-roll smites, Hex, Hunter's Mark, etc. You ONLY get to re-roll WEAPON damage die, not any additional die.

The ONLY way you roll more die is if the weapon has an inherent extra die (Flame Tongue, etc). Other than that, you aren't 110% wrong. Crawford = Rules. Mearl = no rules.

You're wrong.

With regards to mearles, he has said multiple times that his rulings are just how he would do it at his table or just his opinions. JC is the one that gives official responses.

Vogonjeltz
2016-02-02, 06:09 PM
I'm sorry but if you're talking level 12, a Wizard is going to trump all. The level 5 and above Wizard spells are simply too powerful. Can debate whether Abjuration, Divination, or Evocation will be stronger, but given the short rest/long rest constraints I would go with Abjuration for the +proficiency to Counterspell and the ability to ritual the Abjuration ward back up. Evocation would be nice for the Magic Missile + Counterspell cheese of stupid high damage with Magic Missile, but honestly there's better ways of ending a fight.

Contingency would of course be cast with Greater Invisibility (can't counterspell what you can't see) or a Resilient Sphere. After the first round presumably I could size up the competition and decide what to slot in it after the short rest Arcane Recovery for Contingency.

After that it's a matter of Wall of Forcing the competition in place and then just doing whatever you want. Alternatively, Animate Objects -> 10 tiny objects. Will hit hard enough to wreck any concentration and each get opportunity attacks (if they try to move closer to the Wizard) even through Darkness because of their Blindsight.

For fights where I didn't feel like wasting a 5th level slot to auto-win, I would Conjure Minor Elementals and summon fire mephits. Each casts Heat Metal on the armor & weapon.

Then of course there's the ultimate cheese of Rope Trick and poking out to blast the enemy. Phantasmal Force against any non-Int based class will be ruinous and give me plenty of time to get non-concentration buffs up for particularly well built classes (Mirror Image + Blink).

Conjure Minor Elementals doesn't allow you to choose the specific creatures, merely a package loadout. It also requires concentration, conflicting with Invisibility.

Rope trick simply leads to the opponent waiting them out.

I sincerely doubt the ability of the Wizard to even survive one round given they have both the worst hit points and worst AC. A Barbarian has advantage on initiative rolls (so they're basically winning init), and with advantage on attacks they're apt to deal 2d12 + 16 that first round which is, on average, half the hit points of the Wizard. There's a ~10% chance of critting for up to 6d12+16 (55 ave) which is quite close to outright knocking the Wizard unconscious. Some players might even grapple the wizard so they can't run.

RickAllison
2016-02-02, 06:24 PM
Now that I think about it, Contingency doesn't seem like the best spell to have for 6th level. I mean, it's great if you know what an opponent favors (i.e. fantastic for the final round if you were able to see the other fight), but less so if you are blowing your only highest-level slot for an eventuality. Isn't L6 one of the best levels for casters anyway? Seems a waste to blow your only slot when you could unleash Disintegrate or Flesh to Stone instead. Restraining someone for three turns would be fantastic!

Malifice
2016-02-02, 10:43 PM
You're wrong.

Look man, even if I am, it doesnt really matter. Its still 8d6 [re-roll 1's and 2's) + 20d8 + 6 damage.

Pretty much settled on:

Favored soul sorcerer 6/ Rogue 2/ Fighter 2/ Paladin 2. S13, D16, C12, W12, I8, Ch16. Vuman. Alert and +2 Dex. Expertise in stealth (+11) and perception (+9, passive 19). Prof in Str and Con saves. Skills: Athletics, acrobatics, arcana, insight, others. Dueling and defence. chain shirt, shield, rapier, longbow, arrows.

I'm gonna remove quicken spell and add distant spell. That solves the counterspelling issues with hold person. I can now make my spells immune to being countered, and can be cast from 120' away. Im also gonna use a rapier and shield. Lets me focus more on Dex [better for stealth and initiative].

Key spells known: fireball, counterspell, shield, invisibility, see invisibility, mirror image, bless, cure wounds

Precast invisibility and see invisibility. Hidden [+11 stealth]. Riding a broom.

Initiative at +8 means I hopefully go first. Cast a distant hold person [DC 15 wisdom] from 100' away [cant be counterspelled]. If it lands, move forward 50'. Draw rapier [free object interaction]. Dash [bonus action] the remaining distance. Action surge. Make two attacks with rapier at +7 (at advantage) - with a succesful attack being an auto-crit. Spam smites on a hit.

If both land, its [4d8 (rapier) + 2d6 (sneak attack) + 20d8 (smite) + 10] or 125 damage on average.

If I see nothing but darkness [i.e. there is a warlock with some rogue levels opposite me] I fireball the darkness hopefully messing with concentration of whatever is in there. If the darkness goes away, I move + dash + action surge/ 2 attacks with smites on the same turn.

Finieous
2016-02-02, 11:19 PM
You've used all three 2nd level spell slots (even if the target makes the DC 15 save). Then you're getting 10d8 smite dice. Are you assuming a 3rd level slot (4d8) and three 1st level slots (6d8)? So that leaves you 1 1st, 0 2nd, 2 3rd, and 1 4th after your opener in your first of four fights, assuming the hold person sticks. You've got 5 SP left, which could get you a 1st and 2nd back assuming your opener wins the first fight.

So, if your opener wins the first fight and you don't have to waste anymore spells, you start the second with 2 1st, 1 2nd, 2 3rd, and 1 4th level slot. You can cast invisibility and hold person with 3rd level slots, see invisibility with your 2nd level slot. No metamagic this time. If you stick your hold person again, and it isn't counterspelled, you can smite for 18d8 with auto-crit, I think? You kill that guy, too, before he has a chance to do anything, just like the first fight.

None of these guys have had freedom of action cast and you've basically one-shot them. Now you've got two more fights with no spell slots or spell points. Your next opponents have won two and three fights, themselves, so now things are getting tough. How do you win those fights?

Malifice
2016-02-02, 11:35 PM
You've used all three 2nd level spell slots (even if the target makes the DC 15 save). Then you're getting 10d8 smite dice. Are you assuming a 3rd level slot (4d8) and three 1st level slots (6d8)? So that leaves you 1 1st, 0 2nd, 2 3rd, and 1 4th after your opener in your first of four fights, assuming the hold person sticks. You've got 5 SP left, which could get you a 1st and 2nd back assuming your opener wins the first fight.

I'm caster level 7. Slots: 4/3/3/1. 6 SP. I use 3 x 2nds [hold person, invis, see invis], 2 x 3rds to smite (I thought 4ths but I only get one of those) and 1 SP.

After the battle, I convert 2 x 1sts to SP, burn 6 SP (leaving me with 1) and create 2 more 2nd level slots.

For fight 2 I have 2/2/1/1 slots and 1 SP.

I can get through two fights using these tactics, but then Im out of slots. Youve got me thinking I should put some warlock in there.

To be fair, I probably dont need see invisiblity up pre battle (invisibility is a must to protect me from spells, and gives me something to hide in should I lose initiative). I could probably get away with 2 x 2nds (hold person/ invisibility) and 2 x 3rds (smites) and 1 x SP in most battles.

I could possibly stretch the invisibility/ hold person/ smite nova out to three encounters that way.


None of these guys have had freedom of action cast and you've basically one-shot them. Now you've got two more fights with no spell slots or spell points. Your next opponents have won two and three fights, themselves, so now things are getting tough. How do you win those fights?

With action surge, cunning action [bonus action disengage and dash], a 50' fly speed, extra attack.

I can still fly 100' a round [move+bonus action dash] while making full attacks with a bow/ cantrip.

Or course by fight 4, a lot of peeps are gonna be down on long rest resources, so I wont be alone.

Gwendol
2016-02-03, 03:57 AM
Well, aarakocra with an elven cloak, or elf with a broom of flying. Whatever. I'm tired of arguing about the stealth rules in service to a theoretical PvP match. :smallbiggrin:

No kidding!

Malifice
2016-02-03, 04:19 AM
No kidding!

Invisibility is the solution. Cant argue with hiding while invisible.

A Dex 16 Aarackrocka with elven boots and a dip in Rogue gets +11 to stealth (with advantage) while hiding, and can [cast invisibility] with his action, use cunning action to [hide] and then silently fly off all in the same round.

Not too hard to beat passive perception scores when youre rolling at +11 with advantage.

In fact an Aaracrocka Rogue 2/ Wizard 10 is going to be hard to beat without see invisible. Has enough slots to cast greater invisibility in every single encounter, and still has 2 x 6th level slots spare (and all his thirds, seconds and 1sts).

He can blast you with his action, then use cunning action to hide before moving 50' every single round [forcing you to guess which 5' square he is in - a tall order considering he moves 50' AND is flying!].

MaxWilson
2016-02-03, 04:40 AM
Or course by fight 4, a lot of peeps are gonna be down on long rest resources, so I wont be alone.

By fight #4, my Monk of Long Death Mobile Sharpshooter will still be going strong and will be ready to murder whoever is the runner-up.

================================

BTW, vs. something like an Aarakocra warlock, you can just lie prone between shots, so the Aarakocra has disadvantage to hit you but you do not have disadvantage against the Aarakocra. So a flying archer has definite drawbacks.

(Yes, it is a little bit ridiculous that Prone doesn't care about the angle; but that's RAW. In the real world it is the non-Prone targets who would be hard to hit from directly above, but the guy on the ground can assume either orientation so from a game balance perspective it's a wash.)

================================


He can blast you with his action, then use cunning action to hide before moving 50' every single round [forcing you to guess which 5' square he is in - a tall order considering he moves 50' AND is flying!].

I'm not really sure, but I once heard there's this little thing in 5E called a "readied action" which could put a dent in that plan.

djreynolds
2016-02-03, 06:48 AM
Good old champion fighter with resilient wis, shield master, defensive duelist, strength based but fights with a rapier, 18th level survivor, 2 levels of rogue for cunning action and expertise in athletics, grab lucky, max out strength. 7 feats

And then just take the dodge action all day.

Question, can one still get a reaction even though they are taking the dodge action?

Oh shoot 12th level.

11th level paladin, 1 rogue shield master

Douche
2016-02-03, 08:29 AM
Invisibility is the solution. Cant argue with hiding while invisible.


Not to start the conversation again, but I've said multiple times that you'll be leaving obvious foot prints in the sand.

Not only does it make sense, but I've been in numerous scenarios where the DM screwed the party over because of his silly interpretation of invis. You turn invisible, but that doesn't mean you can't be found.

But, ya know, I understand that you only picked invisibility to keep from being targeted by spells, so that's cool.


In other news, I imagine we might be putting too much stock in the endurance aspect. I mean, yeah, if you were up against a fighter/warlock you'd be screwed, but you have to imagine that the first round would have a lot of people would burn all their resources in the first fight out of desperation. If you're about to die, you're not gonna be worried about conserving spells for the next round - cuz you'd be dead if you save them. As a result, while it's important to think ahead, there's a decent chance your second round opponent will have like 2 spells remaining.


Look man, even if I am, it doesnt really matter. Its still 8d6 [re-roll 1's and 2's) + 20d8 + 6 damage.

Pretty much settled on:

Favored soul sorcerer 6/ Rogue 2/ Fighter 2/ Paladin 2. S13, D16, C12, W12, I8, Ch16. Vuman. Alert and +2 Dex. Expertise in stealth (+11) and perception (+9, passive 19). Prof in Str and Con saves. Skills: Athletics, acrobatics, arcana, insight, others. Dueling and defence. chain shirt, shield, rapier, longbow, arrows.

I'm gonna remove quicken spell and add distant spell. That solves the counterspelling issues with hold person. I can now make my spells immune to being countered, and can be cast from 120' away. Im also gonna use a rapier and shield. Lets me focus more on Dex [better for stealth and initiative].

Initiative at +8 means I hopefully go first. Cast a distant hold person [DC 15 wisdom] from 100' away [cant be counterspelled]. If it lands, move forward 50'. Draw rapier [free object interaction]. Dash [bonus action] the remaining distance. Action surge. Make two attacks with rapier at +7 (at advantage) - with a succesful attack being an auto-crit. Spam smites on a hit.


Despite the shield, is the rapier even versatile? You can't reroll 1 & 2 unless you're wielding a weapon with 2 hands.

Corran
2016-02-03, 08:36 AM
Not to start the conversation again, but I've said multiple times that you'll be leaving obvious foot prints in the sand.

Not only does it make sense, but I've been in numerous scenarios where the DM screwed the party over because of his silly interpretation of invis. You turn invisible, but that doesn't mean you can't be found.

But, ya know, I understand that you only picked invisibility to keep from being targeted by spells, so that's cool.
He went with cunning action and expertise in stealth, ad even prioritised dex instead of str for that very reason. He knows. And he has planned for it. And you are right ofc in what you say, but I really thinks he knows about that.



In other news, I imagine we might be putting too much stock in the endurance aspect. I mean, yeah, if you were up against a fighter/warlock you'd be screwed, but you have to imagine that the first round would have a lot of people would burn all their resources in the first fight out of desperation. If you're about to die, you're not gonna be worried about conserving spells for the next round - cuz you'd be dead if you save them. As a result, while it's important to think ahead, there's a decent chance your second round opponent will have like 2 spells remaining.

Not me :smallsmile:
I recharge everything on short rests, so every round is easier than the previous one. The first round is going to be my ''final''. After that it gets easier. At least in theory.

Finieous
2016-02-03, 09:09 AM
I can get through two fights using these tactics, but then Im out of slots. Youve got me thinking I should put some warlock in there.


That's what I was thinking. Warlock seems good for short rest slots.



To be fair, I probably dont need see invisiblity up pre battle (invisibility is a must to protect me from spells, and gives me something to hide in should I lose initiative). I could probably get away with 2 x 2nds (hold person/ invisibility) and 2 x 3rds (smites) and 1 x SP in most battles.


To the contrary, see invisibility is what I most like, and interestingly, a sorcerer seems to be the only one who can have it for all four fights. Am I right about that, or did I miss something? ETA: Wizard with Arcane Recovery, of course.



With action surge, cunning action [bonus action disengage and dash], a 50' fly speed, extra attack.

I can still fly 100' a round [move+bonus action dash] while making full attacks with a bow/ cantrip.

Or course by fight 4, a lot of peeps are gonna be down on long rest resources, so I wont be alone.

I don't see it. I think you'll get smoked by any short-rest build capable of advancing that far. Gate opens and a flying globe of darkness floats out, you're done. Druid comes out, air elemental, can fly twice as fast, strafe and use cover. Flying monks stunlocking you. Probably many others.

Basically, I like sorcerer for see invisibility and situational metamagic, warlock is good for short rest slots, but you need a way to kill opponents that's a lot more efficient than smites. Even in the first two fights, you catch someone with freedom of movement, or someone you can't see even with see invisibility or a wildshaped druid you can't hold, you've got some issues.

Finieous
2016-02-03, 09:14 AM
Invisibility is the solution. Cant argue with hiding while invisible.


I'm still playing my druid 10/rogue 2, but I'm subbing out the useless elven cloak for eversmoking bottle. Pass without Trace, Hide at +21, wait out the durations on the prepped spells and then assess.

Finieous
2016-02-03, 09:24 AM
Good old champion fighter with resilient wis, shield master, defensive duelist, strength based but fights with a rapier, 18th level survivor, 2 levels of rogue for cunning action and expertise in athletics, grab lucky, max out strength. 7 feats


Don't forget your broom. Pretty sure you auto-lose without a broom, even if you're 18th level vs. the 12th level field. :smallbiggrin:


Not to start the conversation again, but I've said multiple times that you'll be leaving obvious foot prints in the sand.


He's flying! :smallbiggrin:

Douche
2016-02-03, 09:33 AM
Don't forget your broom. Pretty sure you auto-lose without a broom, even if you're 18th level vs. the 12th level field. :smallbiggrin:



He's flying! :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I wish I had said "no flying" and "no hiding in extra dimensional space" as those kinda make it a stupid competition. Still, the broom remains visible, so it's effectively the same as leaving footprints - probably worse actually... Footprints might require an investigation check to see where they end. A flying broom is a flying broom.

Anyway, if everyone is invisible and flying, then no one is invisible and flying. It's kind of a pointless discussion.

Finieous
2016-02-03, 09:38 AM
Yeah, I wish I had said "no flying" and "no hiding in extra dimensional space" as those kinda make it a stupid competition. Still, the broom remains visible, so it's effectively the same as leaving footprints - probably worse actually... Footprints might require an investigation check to see where they end. A flying broom is a flying broom.

Anyway, if everyone is invisible and flying, then no one is invisible and flying. It's kind of a pointless discussion.

Is that an official ruling for the tournament? The broom remains visible? That would be really good news for my druid!

Corran
2016-02-03, 09:44 AM
Yeah, I wish I had said "no flying" and "no hiding in extra dimensional space" as those kinda make it a stupid competition. Still, the broom remains visible, so it's effectively the same as leaving footprints - probably worse actually... Footprints might require an investigation check to see where they end. A flying broom is a flying broom.
I would rule perception, though I could be wrong. As far as leaving footprints on the sand, that does not automatically betray your position. It is still a contest of stealth vs passive perception (assuming you take the hide action). Perhaps with a disadvantage on the stealth check if you actually walk on the sand, due to terrain, ofc that comes at DM's discretion.


Anyway, if everyone is invisible and flying, then no one is invisible and flying. It's kind of a pointless discussion.It is not completely pointless. These things require you to spend resources and possibly commit your magic item to that strategy. That affects different builds in a very different way. Ofc that moves the contest from a straightforward fight to a more complex scenario, invloving a lot more factors. And it could lead to a very long fight, one which could even result in a draw, assuming that no one decides to initiate and that each combatant has a way to deal with the opponent's delay tactics. As I said, that takes the combat to a completely different level.

Douche
2016-02-03, 09:45 AM
Is that an official ruling for the tournament? The broom remains visible? That would be really good news for my druid!

I don't see why not. You aren't technically carrying the broom.


I would rule perception, though I could be wrong. As far as leaving footprints on the sand, that does not automatically betray your position. It is still a contest of stealth vs passive perception (assuming you take the hide action). Perhaps with a disadvantage on the stealth check if you actually walk on the sand, due to terrain, ofc that comes at DM's discretion.

I guess it would be quite clever to cast a bunch of minor illusions of footprints in the sand :smalltongue:

Citan
2016-02-03, 10:00 AM
That's what I was thinking. Warlock seems good for short rest slots.



To the contrary, see invisibility is what I most like, and interestingly, a sorcerer seems to be the only one who can have it for all four fights. Am I right about that, or did I miss something? ETA: Wizard with Arcane Recovery, of course.

Basically, I like sorcerer for see invisibility and situational metamagic, warlock is good for short rest slots, but you need a way to kill opponents that's a lot more efficient than smites. Even in the first two fights, you catch someone with freedom of movement, or someone you can't see even with see invisibility or a wildshaped druid you can't hold, you've got some issues.
Well, not like I'd want to brag (or maybe I want though ^^) but you could very much like the build I made (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20370797&postcount=12) on the first page of the thread.

Everything is here: short-rest slots for Metamagic or See Invisibility, strong basic offense that can be used in melee or at ranged, Sorcerer's Greater Invisibility, Bestow Curse and usual defense/offense spells, Fighter for action surge and Constitution proficiency. ;)
THE big problem is Wisdom saves, although this build aims to start first, and if you start first you'll have some means to use a relevant tactic against such a caster. ;)
Alternatively, start as a Warlock and count on Greater Invisibility or Blur to avoid taking too much direct damage and be good against nasty debuff/dominate.

Corran
2016-02-03, 10:02 AM
I guess it would be quite clever to cast a bunch of minor illusions of footprints in the sand :smalltongue:
Yeah, but that requires an action. So it comes at a big cost. Perhaps if you can hide as a bonus action and dont want to attack, you could do sth like that to give enemy a disadvantage on his perception check (again, at DM's discretion). A similar exploit when in darkness is to throw sth away from your position, though I have not checked if that falls under some kind of action or under the object interaction. I assume it is some kind of action, but it is very cheesey for my taste either way. Anyway, I am stopping with the stealth discussion, as I am starting to get out of topic.

Finieous
2016-02-03, 10:11 AM
Well, not like I'd want to brag (or maybe I want though ^^) but you could very much like the build I made (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20370797&postcount=12) on the first page of the thread.


Yeah, sorlock seems good. What's your magic item?

Citan
2016-02-03, 11:02 AM
Yeah, sorlock seems good. What's your magic item?
As said, I have nearly no knowledge whatsoever on magic items available in 5e. Reason being I did not play much yet and as a DM I tend to avoid magic items for now. ;)

Although, to throw a stone, I would probably love something that enhances my mobility (such as "levitate" "fly") to go with Invisibility, or something that ups my defence in some ways (since my AC and dex saves will be low).

Finieous
2016-02-03, 11:06 AM
I'm interested in the magic item, now, because you either go broom of flying for infinite duration flight, in which I can target and reveal you with faerie fire, or you go winged boots, in which case I can wait out your flight duration and use the eversmoking bottle plus tremorsense to beat you. The visibility of the broom really weakens it, I think, but I'm interested to hear what others think about it.

MaxWilson
2016-02-03, 11:42 AM
I'm still playing my druid 10/rogue 2, but I'm subbing out the useless elven cloak for eversmoking bottle. Pass without Trace, Hide at +21, wait out the durations on the prepped spells and then assess.

Opponent can just steal the bottle and close it.

Citan
2016-02-03, 11:43 AM
I'm interested in the magic item, now, because you either go broom of flying for infinite duration flight, in which I can target and reveal you with faerie fire, or you go winged boots, in which case I can wait out your flight duration and use the eversmoking bottle plus tremorsense to beat you. The visibility of the broom really weakens it, I think, but I'm interested to hear what others think about it.

Ok, just took a quick glance on uncommon items available, stopped at Bag of Holding. ;)
Take a Bag of Holding, in which I had previously put some very good magical item or amulet (no armor because takes time), which I can equip before casting Greater Invisibility while the gate is closed. Unless opponent breaks invisibility before the fight ends, I can them unequip everything back into the bag once I left the arena.
These items I got from other people who'd like to fight in tournament but are not confident, hence we agreed to share the spoils once I won. ^^

Hey, technically, it's only one uncommon magic item I brought. Right? XD
(Obviously I would also have to bribe the caster guard that would check the equipment of each candidate)

EDIT: For a more credible answer, I like the Boots of ElvenKind should I go "hide&seek" way. Doesn't do much against the traces in the sand though.
Otherwise a plain Cloack of Protection is always useful, or an Elemental Gem to use on the last fight.

....
Ok I have it:
First choice: Sentinel Shield: getting advantage on initiative AND perception checks is a given for my build. ;)
Second: Slippers of Spider Climbing: because that way I can move invisible without getting any trace on ground. ;)
Third: Wand of the War Mage +1

Finieous
2016-02-03, 11:46 AM
Opponent can just steal the bottle and close it.

How do you find me and steal my bottle?

MaxWilson
2016-02-03, 12:42 PM
How do you find me and steal my bottle?

Wait, you're carrying it on your person?!

The bottle is at the center of the cloud.

Finieous
2016-02-03, 12:51 PM
Wait, you're carrying it on your person?!

The bottle is at the center of the cloud.

Yeah, I'm carrying it, and even if I weren't, you'd need to know the command word to stopper it. The cloud emanates from the bottle (obviously), but it starts at 60-ft. radius and the arena is only 80 ft. x 80 ft. So the arena is heavily obscured and me and my bottle can be anywhere within it.

MaxWilson
2016-02-03, 01:29 PM
Yeah, I'm carrying it, and even if I weren't, you'd need to know the command word to stopper it. The cloud emanates from the bottle (obviously), but it starts at 60-ft. radius and the arena is only 80 ft. x 80 ft. So the arena is heavily obscured and me and my bottle can be anywhere within it.

The arena is more than 60 feet high. Look for the high point of the dome. Druid is beneath it. (Granted, this is harder if you're not an Aarakocra or a monk.)

Finieous
2016-02-03, 01:41 PM
The arena is more than 60 feet high. Look for the high point of the dome. Druid is beneath it. (Granted, this is harder if you're not an Aarakocra or a monk.)

After the smoke pours out (1 action), I could stopper it and the cloud remains. Then I can move wherever I want within the cloud. Second, if I don't stopper it, smoke keeps coming out as long as "the bottle remains within the cloud." The cloud is not fixed, somehow, centered on the (open) bottle's current position.

ETA: Or rather, the cloud is "fixed" where it came out, depending on wind conditions; the cloud isn't affixed to the bottle, moving around with it.

MaxWilson
2016-02-03, 01:45 PM
After the smoke pours out (1 action), I could stopper it and the cloud remains. Then I can move wherever I want within the cloud. Second, if I don't stopper it, smoke keeps coming out as long as "the bottle remains within the cloud." The cloud is not fixed, somehow, centered on the (open) bottle's current position.

ETA: Or rather, the cloud is "fixed" where it came out, depending on wind conditions; the cloud isn't affixed to the bottle, moving around with it.

Touche. You've persuaded me.

RickAllison
2016-02-03, 03:43 PM
Depending on the ceiling clearance, it could be fun (and ineffective) to make a Water Genasi Chain Warlock/Something that synergizes with underwater combat with Invisibility and a Decanter of Endless Water. Have the invisible familiar climb to great heights and just begin pouring. Flood the entire arena to take advantage of your aquatic heritage, then win through being in your natural environment. Or die, that's entirely likely, but still cool!

Malifice
2016-02-03, 07:58 PM
Not to start the conversation again, but I've said multiple times that you'll be leaving obvious foot prints in the sand.

Not only does it make sense, but I've been in numerous scenarios where the DM screwed the party over because of his silly interpretation of invis. You turn invisible, but that doesn't mean you can't be found.

But, ya know, I understand that you only picked invisibility to keep from being targeted by spells, so that's cool.


In other news, I imagine we might be putting too much stock in the endurance aspect. I mean, yeah, if you were up against a fighter/warlock you'd be screwed, but you have to imagine that the first round would have a lot of people would burn all their resources in the first fight out of desperation. If you're about to die, you're not gonna be worried about conserving spells for the next round - cuz you'd be dead if you save them. As a result, while it's important to think ahead, there's a decent chance your second round opponent will have like 2 spells remaining.



Despite the shield, is the rapier even versatile? You can't reroll 1 & 2 unless you're wielding a weapon with 2 hands.

The Aaracrocka is flying dude. No footprints in tbe sand. The original one is on a broom of flying.

To answer your second question, I tossed GWS and grabbed dueling

ShikomeKidoMi
2016-02-03, 09:18 PM
My PvP build?

Variant Human Diviner Wizard with the Alertness feat.

Use a high roll portent +alertness + moderate Dex to take initiative, cast a spell. If my target counterspells, use portent to sabotage their dispel check. If they don't, use portent to sabotage their saving throw.

Alertness will also compensate for many opponent strategies, such as attacking from invisibility or darkness.

Admittedly, this build works best if you're only having one duel a day.

Gignere
2016-02-03, 09:37 PM
My PvP build?

Human Diviner Wizard with the Alertness feat.

Use a high roll portent +alertness + moderate Dex to take initiative, cast a spell. If my target counterspells, use portent to sabotage their dispel check. If they don't, use portent to sabotage their saving throw.

Alertness will also compensate for many opponent strategies, such as attacking from invisibility or darkness.

Admittedly, this build works best if you're only having one duel a day.

Damn this will be my build too. I will add a weapon of warning and nab the lucky feat along with alert and still have enough ASIs to get 20 int.

But basically same strategy, cast see invisible as the pre combat buff. Run out win initiative cast SoS and win.

ShikomeKidoMi
2016-02-03, 10:07 PM
Damn this will be my build too. I will add a weapon of warning and nab the lucky feat along with alert and still have enough ASIs to get 20 int.

But basically same strategy, cast see invisible as the pre combat buff. Run out win initiative cast SoS and win.

If we're allowed pre-combat buffs, I'd pick Mirror Image, too.

Finieous
2016-02-03, 10:09 PM
If we're allowed pre-combat buffs, I'd pick Mirror Image, too.

You are! Definitely load up on as many pre-buffs as possible! :smallbiggrin:

MaxWilson
2016-02-03, 10:16 PM
My PvP build?

Variant Human Diviner Wizard with the Alertness feat.

Use a high roll portent +alertness + moderate Dex to take initiative, cast a spell. If my target counterspells, use portent to sabotage their dispel check. If they don't, use portent to sabotage their saving throw.

Watch out for higher-level Counterspells, which do not require an ability check against your spell.

ShikomeKidoMi
2016-02-03, 10:20 PM
Watch out for higher-level Counterspells, which do not require an ability check against your spell.

True, but in the end, nothing's perfect. Every build's weak against something.

Besides if they're spending a high level spell-slot on counterspell, it limits their ability to cast high level spells at me.

Gignere
2016-02-04, 05:34 AM
Watch out for higher-level Counterspells, which do not require an ability check against your spell.

You can use your own reaction to counterspell their counterspell. So as long as the diviner wins initiative he is basically guaranteed to win. Also you can start invisible so they can't counterspell you unless they have see invisibility too. So basically this build beats every non-caster/caster class without counter spell. For those that do have counterspell and see invisible the diviner just has to win initiative.

With +8 initiative at advantage 3 lucky rolls, and two portent rolls, I think odds are good the diviner wizard will win initiative.

MaxWilson
2016-02-04, 12:30 PM
You can use your own reaction to counterspell their counterspell. So as long as the diviner wins initiative he is basically guaranteed to win. Also you can start invisible so they can't counterspell you unless they have see invisibility too. So basically this build beats every non-caster/caster class without counter spell. For those that do have counterspell and see invisible the diviner just has to win initiative.

With +8 initiative at advantage 3 lucky rolls, and two portent rolls, I think odds are good the diviner wizard will win initiative.

So let's say your divine just made my Death Monk fail a saving throw against one spell. Which spell would it have to be to end the combat right then and there and declare victory? Polymorph? Into a fish and then drown the fish?

Finieous
2016-02-04, 02:35 PM
So let's say your divine just made my Death Monk fail a saving throw against one spell. Which spell would it have to be to end the combat right then and there and declare victory? Polymorph? Into a fish and then drown the fish?

Dude, I don't think they've actually read the thread and kept up with the arms race. :smallbiggrin:

Gignere
2016-02-04, 07:23 PM
So let's say your divine just made my Death Monk fail a saving throw against one spell. Which spell would it have to be to end the combat right then and there and declare victory? Polymorph? Into a fish and then drown the fish?

That would work, even phantasmal force would be deadly as you would need a DC 17 investigate check to escape. Which you are likely making at -1. While I just ping you to death for 10 rounds at advantage with a cantrip. If you do survive or escape recast. I am away from books but I believe a dominate person or monster should end the fight as well. Maybe even suggest you to go to sleep I mean you're asleep for 8+ hours that should be an auto win.

If the fight doesn't end than I will long rest while you sleep to regain all of my spells.

Malifice
2016-02-04, 08:55 PM
That would work, even phantasmal force would be deadly as you would need a DC 17 investigate check to escape. Which you are likely making at -1. While I just ping you to death for 10 rounds at advantage with a cantrip. If you do survive or escape recast. I am away from books but I believe a dominate person or monster should end the fight as well. Maybe even suggest you to go to sleep I mean you're asleep for 8+ hours that should be an auto win.

If the fight doesn't end than I will long rest while you sleep to regain all of my spells.

Not sure taking a nap in an arena duel while an armed dude hovers nearby is a 'reasonable' suggestion.

MaxWilson
2016-02-04, 09:30 PM
That would work, even phantasmal force would be deadly as you would need a DC 17 investigate check to escape. Which you are likely making at -1. While I just ping you to death for 10 rounds at advantage with a cantrip. If you do survive or escape recast. I am away from books but I believe a dominate person or monster should end the fight as well. Maybe even suggest you to go to sleep I mean you're asleep for 8+ hours that should be an auto win.

If the fight doesn't end than I will long rest while you sleep to regain all of my spells.

I am not worried about Phantasmal Force, because: 1.) I can just break your concentration, 2.) It's only d6 damage per round anyway. Not a case where a failed save will end me.

Dominate Person will let you get in one or two good blows before I snap out of it again. Ultimately Dominate Person is just a way of inflicting damage.

Suggestion: Sleep is an interesting idea, but it just resets us both to a fully-rested start state. You still have to leverage that into an actual win.

So far the only actual save-or-die that's been suggested seems to be Polymorph, which relies on the fact that you drowning prevents you from regaining HP until you cease to be drowning. Even there you may have trouble getting a pool of water big enough to drown someone in--I'd want to see your plan for converting "Monk is now a mouse" into "Monk is dead."

So, the Diviner may or may not be able to leverage Portent into a win. (And let us not forget that Portent can roll high instead of low.)

Gignere
2016-02-04, 09:34 PM
I am not worried about Phantasmal Force, because: 1.) I can just break your concentration, 2.) It's only d6 damage per round anyway. Not a case where a failed save will end me.

Dominate Person will let you get in one or two good blows before I snap out of it again. Ultimately Dominate Person is just a way of inflicting damage.

Suggestion: Sleep is an interesting idea, but it just resets us both to a fully-rested start state. You still have to leverage that into an actual win.

So far the only actual save-or-die that's been suggested seems to be Polymorph, which relies on the fact that you drowning prevents you from regaining HP until you cease to be drowning. Even there you may have trouble getting a pool of water big enough to drown someone in--I'd want to see your plan for converting "Monk is now a mouse" into "Monk is dead."

So, the Diviner may or may not be able to leverage Portent into a win. (And let us not forget that Portent can roll high instead of low.)

Polymorph to a fish. You drown in air. Also phantasmal force with the correct illusion should restrain movements so you can't even close and attack. Like fiery chains nailing you to the ground. That should immobilize and restrain no damage no break concentration. I don't think a forced sleep gives you brnefit of long rest.

MaxWilson
2016-02-04, 09:39 PM
Polymorph to a fish. You drown in air. Also phantasmal force with the correct illusion should restrain movements so you can't even close and attack. Like fiery chains nailing you to the ground. That should immobilize and restrain no damage no break concentration. I don't think a forced sleep gives you brnefit of long rest.

I had considered the Fish idea but then realized that I can't prove it's RAW.

Good luck with that Phantasmal Force idea. I don't think you can come up with something that would seriously impede a PC. Remember, it doesn't actually prevent movement, just forces PCs to rationalize away the fact of their success.

Gignere
2016-02-04, 10:22 PM
I had considered the Fish idea but then realized that I can't prove it's RAW.

Good luck with that Phantasmal Force idea. I don't think you can come up with something that would seriously impede a PC. Remember, it doesn't actually prevent movement, just forces PCs to rationalize away the fact of their success.

Yes that rationalization is the investigation check. You make it you can move if not you can't.

MaxWilson
2016-02-04, 11:48 PM
Yes that rationalization is the investigation check. You make it you can move if not you can't.

Re-read the spell.

If you attach a flaming chain to me, I can still declare an action, "I'm going to move towards that wizard as far as I can and then attack him," at some point the chain is going to run out of slack and I'll jerk to a halt. But if there's not really a chain there, because it's a phantasm, all that will happen is that I'll hit the wizard in melee and then realize, "Wow, that chain sure had a lot of slack to it. Sure hurts though," and I'll take 1d6 fire damage (which is really psychic damage). (Except, by that point the chain will no longer fit in a 10' cube, so it may just vanish without doing anything. Or maybe I will 'realize' that the chain somehow uprooted itself from the ground and is now dragging around behind me. Ask your DM which.)

Phantasmal Force cannot force a PC to take or refrain from any action.

Gignere
2016-02-05, 01:33 AM
Re-read the spell.

If you attach a flaming chain to me, I can still declare an action, "I'm going to move towards that wizard as far as I can and then attack him," at some point the chain is going to run out of slack and I'll jerk to a halt. But if there's not really a chain there, because it's a phantasm, all that will happen is that I'll hit the wizard in melee and then realize, "Wow, that chain sure had a lot of slack to it. Sure hurts though," and I'll take 1d6 fire damage (which is really psychic damage). (Except, by that point the chain will no longer fit in a 10' cube, so it may just vanish without doing anything. Or maybe I will 'realize' that the chain somehow uprooted itself from the ground and is now dragging around behind me. Ask your DM which.)

Phantasmal Force cannot force a PC to take or refrain from any action.

Yes it can, I read the description many times if it can trick an ogre into thinking he fell off a bridge, it can trick a PC thinking he is restrained by a burning chain. Your mind believes it is real so it will stop you from moving. You have to investigate in order to get out, I mean the DM can rule anything but I think at a minimum Phantasmal Force should be allowed to duplicate the effects of other second level spells like Web.

So it isn't even OP to restrain and immobilize someone as a second level spell. The way you are reading it is making Phantasmal Force useless. Who said the chain needs to have slack. It can just be burning chains hogtying you. Don't say your first idea is to move when your character believes he is hogtied in burning chains.

MaxWilson
2016-02-05, 02:16 AM
So it isn't even OP to restrain and immobilize someone as a second level spell. The way you are reading it is making Phantasmal Force useless.

It's not useless. It's fine for a 2nd level spell. You just need to be more creative with your phantasms instead of trying to wrest the spell into something more powerful than it really is. Create an illusion which will cause your opponent to respond in a way that you want him to, e.g. an illusion of an Earth Elemental may cause him to waste a lot of attacks. Unfortunately, like most illusion spells, it's not much use in an arena PvP setting where your opponent already exactly who his opponent is--even if he believes the Earth Elemental is real, his optimal strategy remains exactly the same: kill the wizard who summoned it.

ShikomeKidoMi
2016-02-05, 05:11 AM
So let's say your divine just made my Death Monk fail a saving throw against one spell. Which spell would it have to be to end the combat right then and there and declare victory? Polymorph? Into a fish and then drown the fish?

There's lots of options. Polymorph is a good one, but there's also Modify Memory to give someone a convincing reason to take a dive in this contest. If I can think of an event that only takes 10 minutes, then it's one save to end the fight. Maybe they were offered a lot of money or the ruler of their country approached them secretly with a mission that requires it (this is suprisingly likely to happen to adventurers). The opponent will then keel over dramatically and surrender when hit with magic missile.

If we're allowed a single uncommon magic item, Polymorph is good for making people small enough to fit in an airless bag of holding. Suffocating them inside reduces them to zero hitpoints. If that doesn't kill the target, then it makes them big enough to rupture it by reverting to natural size, so they're lost in the Astral Plane. I'd probably pick something with no land movement speed like a fish so my target couldn't try to escape. Generally, being stranded in another dimension with no way back is considered a loss (it's at least a ring-out).

These first two are my preferred options but there's more:

This third option is less reliable than the first two, but I'm listing it for completeness: starting a fight with a failed roll on Flesh to Stone means a target is more likely to fail two more saves than make three successful ones since even characters Proficient in Constitution saves, will generally have Constitution lower than 20, and so provide less of a bonus than the Diviner's intelligence. Remember a single failed save leaves the target restrained until the contest is determined, which will prevent a melee character from doing anything to a wizard, though it's not as much of a problem for ranged characters(who just suffer disadvantage) and matters little against spellcasters.

Fourth option: If you think you can measure how much damage you're doing to yourself very precisely: Use magic jar to possess the target and beat yourself up until you're at less than ten hit points, then walk 95 feet from your body, release the spell and cast a 5th level Magic Missile. Cast a 4th level one the next round if the target is still standing (thanks to the Monk of Longdeath's ability to make a saving throw to avoid falling to zero hit points, for example). Few foes can close 95 feet in one round and still attack, so this is good against melee types, though not great against fellow spellcasters, as it gives them a chance to cast a spell back at you. A more risky option is to commit suicide while in the target's body. This is really good at killing people but the wizard is probably going to need the Lucky feat to survive himself and it's quite possible to get a double KO here. Do not dump stat Charisma if you want to try this.

High level wizard spells are somewhat horrifying, but as I said earlier, the biggest weakness of this build is that you can only really do this once a day or so and then you're out of both low Portent rolls and possibly your only sixth level spell, whereas say a Monk of the Long Death can use most of their abilities repeatedly in that span.

Gignere
2016-02-05, 07:39 AM
There's lots of options. Polymorph is a good one, but there's also Modify Memory to give someone a convincing reason to take a dive in this contest. If I can think of an event that only takes 10 minutes, then it's one save to end the fight. Maybe they were offered a lot of money or the ruler of their country approached them secretly with a mission that requires it (this is suprisingly likely to happen to adventurers). The opponent will then keel over dramatically and surrender when hit with magic missile.

If we're allowed a single uncommon magic item, Polymorph is good for making people small enough to fit in an airless bag of holding. Suffocating them inside reduces them to zero hitpoints. If that doesn't kill the target, then it makes them big enough to rupture it by reverting to natural size, so they're lost in the Astral Plane. I'd probably pick something with no land movement speed like a fish so my target couldn't try to escape. Generally, being stranded in another dimension with no way back is considered a loss (it's at least a ring-out).

These first two are my preferred options but there's more:

This third option is less reliable than the first two, but I'm listing it for completeness: starting a fight with a failed roll on Flesh to Stone means a target is more likely to fail two more saves than make three successful ones since even characters Proficient in Constitution saves, will generally have Constitution lower than 20, and so provide less of a bonus than the Diviner's intelligence. Remember a single failed save leaves the target restrained until the contest is determined, which will prevent a melee character from doing anything to a wizard, though it's not as much of a problem for ranged characters(who just suffer disadvantage) and matters little against spellcasters.

Fourth option: If you think you can measure how much damage you're doing to yourself very precisely: Use magic jar to possess the target and beat yourself up until you're at less than ten hit points, then walk 95 feet from your body, release the spell and cast a 5th level Magic Missile. Cast a 4th level one the next round if the target is still standing (thanks to the Monk of Longdeath's ability to make a saving throw to avoid falling to zero hit points, for example). Few foes can close 95 feet in one round and still attack, so this is good against melee types, though not great against fellow spellcasters, as it gives them a chance to cast a spell back at you. A more risky option is to commit suicide while in the target's body. This is really good at killing people but the wizard is probably going to need the Lucky feat to survive himself and it's quite possible to get a double KO here. Do not dump stat Charisma if you want to try this.

High level wizard spells are somewhat horrifying, but as I said earlier, the biggest weakness of this build is that you can only really do this once a day or so and then you're out of both low Portent rolls and possibly your only sixth level spell, whereas say a Monk of the Long Death can use most of their abilities repeatedly in that span.

Since this is based on WoW arena, and forfeit the fight is definitely allowed in WoW. I think you can just use suggestion and with portent rolls, or just spam it and suggest your opponent forfeit the fight. Should be effective against everyone except fighters who has indomitable, however against fighters there are probably other ways to win but at the moment my PHB is on route to WoTC for a replacement so can't see what spells will be most effective.

ShikomeKidoMi
2016-02-05, 08:21 AM
Since this is based on WoW arena, and forfeit the fight is definitely allowed in WoW. I think you can just use suggestion and with portent rolls, or just spam it and suggest your opponent forfeit the fight. Should be effective against everyone except fighters who has indomitable, however against fighters there are probably other ways to win but at the moment my PHB is on route to WoTC for a replacement so can't see what spells will be most effective.

That would probably work, too, but I was using Modify Memory to avoid auto-counterspelling.

Oh, by the way, a good way to prevent someone from moving with with Phantasmal Force isn't a chain, it's a giant gaping pit all around them. That way they won't even try Strength checks to break free. With the increased rarity of flight and decreased bonuses to jump distance in this setting the pit doesn't even have to be that wide.

Finieous
2016-02-05, 08:42 AM
"Increased rarity of flight"? Every competitive build is going to have flight. You really need permanent flight, which means a broom of flying or a flying race. Every competitive build is going to be based on short-rest resources or at least have an argument about how it can win four fights before a long rest. And you can't declare auto-wins with a bunch of spells that require you to see your target when you're not going to be able to see your target in some fights.

RickAllison
2016-02-05, 11:24 PM
So I have a question on the Polymorph, and it might be ignorant-sounding because I've never played a Wizard. Instead of trying to kill them at the cost of the Bag of Holding or some other convoluted way, why not just morph them into a turtle (so the enemy is nice and slow, easy to catch), spend a while Molding Earth to create a narrow hole straight down and piling it up on one square next to the hole (you have an hour to do so!). Take your interaction with object to drop the Polymorph turtle down the hole. When he hits the bottom, he might take enough damage to die, hooray if he does. Otherwise, use the action to mold earth the cube of dirt right below the tower. It destabilizes and dumps a massive amount of dirt down on the person. If he is still a turtle, that's fine. If he reverted, it doesn't matter because he is still buried under many cubic feet of dirt. He's not getting out (unless he is a druid, but then why would you use a Wisdom save on a druid or a cleric?). Are there many counters to this? It just seems like the safest way to dispose of the body.

MaxWilson
2016-02-05, 11:57 PM
So I have a question on the Polymorph, and it might be ignorant-sounding because I've never played a Wizard. Instead of trying to kill them at the cost of the Bag of Holding or some other convoluted way, why not just morph them into a turtle (so the enemy is nice and slow, easy to catch), spend a while Molding Earth to create a narrow hole straight down and piling it up on one square next to the hole (you have an hour to do so!). Take your interaction with object to drop the Polymorph turtle down the hole. When he hits the bottom, he might take enough damage to die, hooray if he does. Otherwise, use the action to mold earth the cube of dirt right below the tower. It destabilizes and dumps a massive amount of dirt down on the person. If he is still a turtle, that's fine. If he reverted, it doesn't matter because he is still buried under many cubic feet of dirt. He's not getting out (unless he is a druid, but then why would you use a Wisdom save on a druid or a cleric?). Are there many counters to this? It just seems like the safest way to dispose of the body.

The one potential counter that I can think of is for the turtle to attack itself, hoping to reduce itself to 0 HP and therefore turn back into a human.

RickAllison
2016-02-06, 12:16 AM
The one potential counter that I can think of is for the turtle to attack itself, hoping to reduce itself to 0 HP and therefore turn back into a human.

That seems both odd and very adorable! Of course, since rope is in every class's starting equipment (I believe), it would not be difficult to tie up the little cutie.

MaxWilson
2016-02-06, 12:45 AM
There's lots of options. Polymorph is a good one, but there's also Modify Memory to give someone a convincing reason to take a dive in this contest. If I can think of an event that only takes 10 minutes, then it's one save to end the fight. Maybe they were offered a lot of money or the ruler of their country approached them secretly with a mission that requires it (this is suprisingly likely to happen to adventurers). The opponent will then keel over dramatically and surrender when hit with magic missile.

Interestingly, Modify Memory incapacitates but does not reduce your movement speed to zero, so you can still move. A flying Monk, though unaware of his surroundings, could fly upwards for three rounds until he is 200' up, and then cease flying. He is almost guaranteed to take at least one point of damage, thus ending Modify Memory.

I doubt most players would think of that though. They're more likely to just ignore the implanted memories.

ShikomeKidoMi
2016-02-08, 01:35 AM
And you can't declare auto-wins with a bunch of spells that require you to see your target when you're not going to be able to see your target in some fights.

Pretty darn few. In an open arena, there's not a lot to hide behind and if you have time to cast Darkness or Invisibility, a diviner has time to cast True Seeing.

And if you want to waste your magical item on flight, it's not going to help with most of those tactics.

Malifice
2016-02-08, 01:39 AM
Pretty darn few. In an open arena, there's not a lot to hide behind and if you have time to cast Darkness or Invisibility, a diviner has time to cast True Seeing.

And if you want to waste your magical item on flight, it's not going to help with most of those tactics.

The arena isnt open though. It has pillars and a bridge and stuff.

Well, the first one did anyways.

ShikomeKidoMi
2016-02-08, 01:47 AM
Interestingly, Modify Memory incapacitates but does not reduce your movement speed to zero, so you can still move. A flying Monk, though unaware of his surroundings, could fly upwards for three rounds until he is 200' up, and then cease flying. He is almost guaranteed to take at least one point of damage, thus ending Modify Memory.
That's kind of hilarious. I certainly overlooked it.

I doubt most players would think of that though. They're more likely to just ignore the implanted memories.
Depends on how dedicated they are to RP, I suppose.

Oh well, there's still Polymorph.

MaxWilson
2016-02-08, 04:32 AM
Oh well, there's still Polymorph.

Polymorph is problematic because

(1) the polymorphed creature can attack itself in hopes of going to 0 HP and breaking the polymorph,
(2) polymorphed creatures normally revert to full prior HP when "killed." Drowning is an exception by PHB errata rules, because you can't regain HP until you can breathe again--but that wouldn't work on a fish, because once he returns to normal (human) form he can breathe again and so gets his full HP back as usual. So you have to actually drown the enemy, in water deep enough that he will still be unable to breath once he reverts to human form. Even that might not work against a Monk of Long Death, due to the wording of his Mastery of Death ability. (It doesn't say anything about the timing, and there is no action cost, so you might be able to use that ability while making death saves from drowning.)

ShikomeKidoMi
2016-02-08, 05:03 AM
Polymorph is problematic because

(1) the polymorphed creature can attack itself in hopes of going to 0 HP and breaking the polymorph,
(2) polymorphed creatures normally revert to full prior HP when "killed." Drowning is an exception by PHB errata rules, because you can't regain HP until you can breathe again--but that wouldn't work on a fish, because once he returns to normal (human) form he can breathe again and so gets his full HP back as usual. So you have to actually drown the enemy, in water deep enough that he will still be unable to breath once he reverts to human form. Even that might not work against a Monk of Long Death, due to the wording of his Mastery of Death ability. (It doesn't say anything about the timing, and there is no action cost, so you might be able to use that ability while making death saves from drowning.)

Or go with the actual usage I outlined above, of polymorphing them into a creature with no move or attacks (say a fish) and then sticking them in a bag of holding, whereupon you suffocate them. Either suffocate kills them or it doesn't and they revert to normal, depending upon your reading of the rules. If they revert to normal, they break the bag and are promptly stranded on the astral plane. That's at least a ring-out.

It's the same post where I mentioned Modify Memory (and Flesh to Stone and Magic Jar) but it is a wall of text.

Douche
2016-02-08, 11:13 AM
EDIT: (putting this first cuz it's important) Does anyone want to actually play out their battle here? I'd do the rolls for you guys so it's fair :smallsmile:

Or would that be better as a PbP topic on the designated board?



Yes it can, I read the description many times if it can trick an ogre into thinking he fell off a bridge, it can trick a PC thinking he is restrained by a burning chain. Your mind believes it is real so it will stop you from moving. You have to investigate in order to get out, I mean the DM can rule anything but I think at a minimum Phantasmal Force should be allowed to duplicate the effects of other second level spells like Web.

So it isn't even OP to restrain and immobilize someone as a second level spell. The way you are reading it is making Phantasmal Force useless. Who said the chain needs to have slack. It can just be burning chains hogtying you. Don't say your first idea is to move when your character believes he is hogtied in burning chains.

I dunno, guys... I mean, phantasmal force doesn't really imply in any way that it can be used as CC. The main examples are a pool of acid or lava.

Even if you did choose to wrap a target in chains, they rationalize it away. You couldn't force them to be hogtied, and if they move their arm then it would escape the chain - they'd probably just assume that it snapped or something. It'd still make them have to leave the 10' cube for the chains to fully fall off, but nothing about the spell suggests that you can treat it as CC. Or else you'd just put them in an Iron Maiden every time and they wouldn't be able to do anything.

I don't want to ruin y'alls fun but I feel like being lenient will illusions like that is okay with NPCs... Not so much against other players.

I feel the same about mind control & charm... Those aren't really spells that should be used against players cuz they will always find a loophole. IE; enchanter tells a player to wait til his party is asleep and kill them... Will instead throw a party, drug them to fall asleep, and kill those strangers. Or something, I dunno. I have real examples of this from DMs that thought it was a good idea to charm us, but it would take like 5 paragraphs to explain.

I'm also not sure if the Phantasmal Force can leave that 10' cube. Like I said earlier, I've noticed that illusion spells tend to specify when you can move them (unless it is totally obvious, like Disguise Self) and in those cases it doesn't really mention anything about cubes. But I'll leave that up to you guys.

MaxWilson
2016-02-08, 12:07 PM
EDIT: (putting this first cuz it's important) Does anyone want to actually play out their battle here? I'd do the rolls for you guys so it's fair :smallsmile:

I would play my Lucky Mobile Sharpshooter Death Monk just to see how things shake out. No expectations.


Or go with the actual usage I outlined above, of polymorphing them into a creature with no move or attacks (say a fish) and then sticking them in a bag of holding, whereupon you suffocate them. Either suffocate kills them or it doesn't and they revert to normal, depending upon your reading of the rules. If they revert to normal, they break the bag and are promptly stranded on the astral plane. That's at least a ring-out.

It's the same post where I mentioned Modify Memory (and Flesh to Stone and Magic Jar) but it is a wall of text.

Oh, right, sorry. I had read that but had forgotten about it. Sounds like it would work, as long as you make sure there are 400 pounds of other stuff in there already (so that turning back breaks the 500 lb. limit) and are prepared to destroy your Bag of Holding.

Gignere
2016-02-08, 04:25 PM
I dunno, guys... I mean, phantasmal force doesn't really imply in any way that it can be used as CC. The main examples are a pool of acid or lava.

Even if you did choose to wrap a target in chains, they rationalize it away. You couldn't force them to be hogtied, and if they move their arm then it would escape the chain - they'd probably just assume that it snapped or something. It'd still make them have to leave the 10' cube for the chains to fully fall off, but nothing about the spell suggests that you can treat it as CC. Or else you'd just put them in an Iron Maiden every time and they wouldn't be able to do anything.

I don't want to ruin y'alls fun but I feel like being lenient will illusions like that is okay with NPCs... Not so much against other players.

I feel the same about mind control & charm... Those aren't really spells that should be used against players cuz they will always find a loophole. IE; enchanter tells a player to wait til his party is asleep and kill them... Will instead throw a party, drug them to fall asleep, and kill those strangers. Or something, I dunno. I have real examples of this from DMs that thought it was a good idea to charm us, but it would take like 5 paragraphs to explain.

I'm also not sure if the Phantasmal Force can leave that 10' cube. Like I said earlier, I've noticed that illusion spells tend to specify when you can move them (unless it is totally obvious, like Disguise Self) and in those cases it doesn't really mention anything about cubes. But I'll leave that up to you guys.

That is where the int save and the investigation check comes in. The spell already has mechanics for how PCs/NPCs can rationalize away the Phantasmal Force. Obviously if the spell is powerful enough to inflict damage through belief alone it should be powerful enough to convince a character that he is immobile. To add another way by just saying I ignore it is reducing the spell's power way too much. As is you get a normal saving throw and you can check to get out every round, if you gave it a get out of jail free against PF this spell is basically useless. It isn't even at the same level as other level 2 spells, like blindness, or web.

I mean does a spell that does a d6 damage a round sounds at all balanced against other level 2 spells, that allows what is essentially 2 saves before it even take effect. That is why at a minimum it should be allowed to duplicate other level 2 effects.

Edit: This spell is only OP at the hands of a diviner who can guarantee the first save is failed, and thus make it a much more difficult investigation check to get out. Any other spell caster with this the spell is hardly overpowered at all even if DMs allowed it to duplicate other level 2 spell effects because with 2 pseudo saves it is flat out worse than other level 2 disables that requires one save.

Douche
2016-02-08, 04:50 PM
That is where the int save and the investigation check comes in. The spell already has mechanics for how PCs/NPCs can rationalize away the Phantasmal Force. Obviously if the spell is powerful enough to inflict damage through belief alone it should be powerful enough to convince a character that he is immobile. To add another way by just saying I ignore it is reducing the spell's power way too much. As is you get a normal saving throw and you can check to get out every round, if you gave it a get out of jail free against PF this spell is basically useless. It isn't even at the same level as other level 2 spells, like blindness, or web.

I mean does a spell that does a d6 damage a round sounds at all balanced against other level 2 spells, that allows what is essentially 2 saves before it even take effect. That is why at a minimum it should be allowed to duplicate other level 2 effects.

Edit: This spell is only OP at the hands of a diviner who can guarantee the first save is failed, and thus make it a much more difficult investigation check to get out. Any other spell caster with this the spell is hardly overpowered at all even if DMs allowed it to duplicate other level 2 spell effects because with 2 pseudo saves it is flat out worse than other level 2 disables that requires one save.

I reread the spell again, I guess I would allow it to move if you created a creature. If you chose a pool of acid or lava, I'd allow it to spread or ooze it's way under the guy as well.

Basically what you have here is a DoT spell with the flavor of the having the target suffer terrible hallucinations - which sounds awesome. If you chose a creature and the two players relayed their action to the DM (not hearing each other, to remove metagaming) I'd even have the other guy believe that you used a summon spell (although with the original Int save, I think they'd still know something is up). You could also trick someone to walk off a cliff thinking it's a bridge, for whatever reason (I guess it could be a useful non-combat alternative for trickery related purposes if you chose to not have it do damage, and only needed to fool one person). I would not allow it to replicate a CC effect and do damage over time, though.

Not sure where you get this idea of 2 saves from. The first one is to see if the spell takes effect. The only other mention of a save is if they want to take an action to disbelieve it. That's different from it needing 2 saves before it has any use. I'm just not sure why you think it should deal consistent, guaranteed damage AND have the effects of another spell of the same level, meanwhile requiring someone to take a full action to disbelieve it when other illusions would reveal themselves is you farted in their general direction.

Anyway, Phantasmal Force is not a disable... But you do have me imagining a freaky illusionist transforming the entire arena into a nightmarish hellscape while a flock of ravens pecks out his eyes for d6 per round.

Edit: Like I said, it would be fine to use it against an NPC. You can easily have a dumb ogre walk off a cliff for laughs, or put him in an iron maiden to reward a creative player - but against other players I think it requires more balancing.

Godwyn
2016-02-08, 04:53 PM
That is where the int save and the investigation check comes in. The spell already has mechanics for how PCs/NPCs can rationalize away the Phantasmal Force. Obviously if the spell is powerful enough to inflict damage through belief alone it should be powerful enough to convince a character that he is immobile. To add another way by just saying I ignore it is reducing the spell's power way too much. As is you get a normal saving throw and you can check to get out every round, if you gave it a get out of jail free against PF this spell is basically useless. It isn't even at the same level as other level 2 spells, like blindness, or web.

I mean does a spell that does a d6 damage a round sounds at all balanced against other level 2 spells, that allows what is essentially 2 saves before it even take effect. That is why at a minimum it should be allowed to duplicate other level 2 effects.

Edit: This spell is only OP at the hands of a diviner who can guarantee the first save is failed, and thus make it a much more difficult investigation check to get out. Any other spell caster with this the spell is hardly overpowered at all even if DMs allowed it to duplicate other level 2 spell effects because with 2 pseudo saves it is flat out worse than other level 2 disables that requires one save.

Illusions are balanced by being weaker in combat for the benefit of out of combat uses. A combat spell does damage and combat ability impairing effects. It has almost no use outside of combat. Illusions have so many amazing out of combat uses.
And, honestly, yes it does sound OP to let a 2nd level illusions spell duplicate the effects of 2 or more 2nd level spells, with the caster getting a free choice of what spells they want to duplicate every casting. If someone wants to debilitate a foe, they need to spend the spellslot on a spell whose power is to debilitate a foe, not one they can use for anything they want. It is interpretations of allowing things above and beyond what a spell is supposed to be for that inflate the power of spellcasters, and they really don't need even more of an increase.

Finieous
2016-02-09, 10:10 AM
Pretty darn few. In an open arena, there's not a lot to hide behind and if you have time to cast Darkness or Invisibility, a diviner has time to cast True Seeing.

And if you want to waste your magical item on flight, it's not going to help with most of those tactics.

True Seeing is a 6th-level spell. You have four fights to get through before you get a long rest. And it won't help you against an Eversmoking Bottle.

MaxWilson
2016-02-09, 11:34 AM
True Seeing is a 6th-level spell. You have four fights to get through before you get a long rest. And it won't help you against an Eversmoking Bottle.

Or even a first-level Fog Cloud.

RickAllison
2016-02-09, 12:34 PM
Or even a first-level Fog Cloud.

Wizard: "Ha ha, no disguises or invisibility can hide you!"
Sorcerer: "How about a random cloud?"
Wizard: "..... I should have picked Gust as a cantrip."