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TundraBuccaneer
2016-02-04, 02:05 PM
A lot of people agree that the dragonborn race needs to get some love because they only only get a breath weapon and a resistance. But than I see people wanting to add things like an proved breath weapon, add wings or make them amphibious.
Which is something I don't agree with because when you look at other races they get something that has to do with there culture. Also I think they have to have something that puts them past the dragon-men image they have. In the books they are mention to be the oldest race there is in this world, they have charisma as a racial ability improvement this should reflect in there culture.

like dwarfs have tool,weapon proficiency and stone cunning.
Elves have cantrips or are stealthy in bushes.

I think Dragonborn deserve something that gives them something that shows they are more then charismatic brutes that spit out an element.

They question is what maybe something that reflects there ancient race as story tellers. Like your elders have told about the history of you kind so you are proficient in history.

Or to provide for you clan you have been trained in the traditional way of... (chose 1 artistian tool that you ar proficient with)

yet I feel a simple skill proficiency might be to easy of a fix.
What would you think would be a good fix to show that dragonborn are a humanoid race and not just a ****ty dragon.

RakiReborn
2016-02-04, 02:28 PM
Hoe about proficiency in deception/persuation/intimidation? Scales off charisma, and reflects the sly speaker nature of dragons, but then in social contact with usually other humanoids. Since the dragonborn dont get a lot, it might be balanced even if you add it to the racials, but not sure...

TundraBuccaneer
2016-02-05, 04:07 AM
maybe a charisma based skill does make sense.

but I think I'm more looking for something that has to do with this quote from the phb

Dragonborn value skill and excellence in all endeavors. They hate to fail,
and they push them selves to extreme efforts before they
give up on something. A dragonborn holds mastery of
a particular skill as a lifetime goal.

maybe a expertise in a skill or a tool to resemble the mastery, or something similar to the orc endurance. Or like when you do a strength or constitution save(maby even abilitie check or a abilitie stat in which you are proficiant with) once per long rest you can have advantage on it.

Ossian77
2016-02-05, 04:29 AM
maybe a charisma based skill does make sense.

but I think I'm more looking for something that has to do with this quote from the phb

Dragonborn value skill and excellence in all endeavors. They hate to fail,
and they push them selves to extreme efforts before they
give up on something. A dragonborn holds mastery of
a particular skill as a lifetime goal.

maybe a expertise in a skill or a tool to resemble the mastery, or something similar to the orc endurance. Or like when you do a strength or constitution save(maby even abilitie check or a abilitie stat in which you are proficiant with) once per long rest you can have advantage on it.


Great starting point, the quote. I think you can leave the skill itself out. The craft, the trade, the lore, you can have good and proficient but also less talented or even mediocre dragonborns. Mostly on the skilled side, sire, but that is up to the player to throw in skill point and [Skill Focus] as a feat.

What pops out of the quote is dragonborn's unyielding determination, the "completer" type (as opposed to the thinker, the executor, the assessor, the learner etc...). Getting good at something is the end result (lifetime goal) so there is no pressure to be the one with the highest bonus on this and that at any given time. What is really good storytelling material is that the dragonborn will crunch for finals if she has to study 23.5 hours a day, will pick up the barbell to make the 5x5 rep max until his shoulders blow out, will build a powered suit of armour in a Afghanistan cave using scraps from missiles and a microwave oven, will keep on running to deliver the news of the Persian defeat to the Athenians if he has to die doing it. It rains, there is no food, no sleep, a broken bone, everyone thinks you are going to sorely let everyone else down, there are demons in the way, there is not a scrap of metal to work with: Well F**K that I am taking my task to completion and I am doing it well.

This being said, i am not sure how to crunch all of the above into numbers. It could be that for a specific skill (craft/trade/lore , pick one) the dragonborn can fiddle with the DC or the chances to take 10 or take 20, and possibly you can ad another for every +1 of charisma (so, +1 = just a skill, +2 = 2 skills or a craft and a lore, +5 etc...). Possibly, when taking 10, the dragon born can add his CHA bonus to the final result (twice, if it is a CHA skill, but let's be wary of Items, so I'd say "just the natural, unmodified charisma")

Makes sense? :smallamused:

Ossian

Ossian77
2016-02-05, 04:33 AM
I like this quote

mettle
ˈmɛt(ə)l/Submit
noun
a person's ability to cope well with difficulties; spirit and resilience.
"the team showed their true mettle in the second half"

synonyms: spirit, fortitude, tenacity, strength of character, moral fibre, steel, determination, resolve, resolution, steadfastness, indomitability, backbone, hardihood, pluck, nerve, gameness, courage, courageousness, bravery, gallantry, valour, intrepidity, fearlessness, boldness, daring, audacity;

In Star Wars, Mettle was a very "Anakin before Mustafar" type of feat.

Mettle Feat = You have courage and the ability to face any threat through your connection to the Force.

Prerequisite: Control [FEAT], Force-Sensitive [FEAT] (or, here: be a dragonborn)

Benefit: You get a +2 aptitude bonus to all Battlemind checks and Force Defense checks. Remember that the Battlemind skill canít be used untrained.

Battlemind being a skill you roll to gain an attack bonus up to +5, and Force Defence a Saving Throw bonus up to +10 Vs all Force-based attack (including skills and feats)

TundraBuccaneer
2016-02-05, 01:42 PM
What pops out of the quote is dragonborn's unyielding determination, the "completer" type (as opposed to the thinker, the executor, the assessor, the learner etc...). Getting good at something is the end result (lifetime goal) so there is no pressure to be the one with the highest bonus on this and that at any given time. What is really good storytelling material is that the dragonborn will crunch for finals if she has to study 23.5 hours a day, will pick up the barbell to make the 5x5 rep max until his shoulders blow out, will build a powered suit of armour in a Afghanistan cave using scraps from missiles and a microwave oven, will keep on running to deliver the news of the Persian defeat to the Athenians if he has to die doing it. It rains, there is no food, no sleep, a broken bone, everyone thinks you are going to sorely let everyone else down, there are demons in the way, there is not a scrap of metal to work with: Well F**K that I am taking my task to completion and I am doing it well.

This being said, i am not sure how to crunch all of the above into numbers. It could be that for a specific skill (craft/trade/lore , pick one) the dragonborn can fiddle with the DC or the chances to take 10 or take 20, and possibly you can ad another for every +1 of charisma (so, +1 = just a skill, +2 = 2 skills or a craft and a lore, +5 etc...). Possibly, when taking 10, the dragon born can add his CHA bonus to the final result (twice, if it is a CHA skill, but let's be wary of Items, so I'd say "just the natural, unmodified charisma")





mettle
ˈmɛt(ə)l/Submit
noun
a person's ability to cope well with difficulties; spirit and resilience.
"the team showed their true mettle in the second half"

synonyms: spirit, fortitude, tenacity, strength of character, moral fibre, steel, determination, resolve, resolution, steadfastness, indomitability, backbone, hardihood, pluck, nerve, gameness, courage, courageousness, bravery, gallantry, valour, intrepidity, fearlessness, boldness, daring, audacity;

In Star Wars, Mettle was a very "Anakin before Mustafar" type of feat.

Mettle Feat = You have courage and the ability to face any threat through your connection to the Force.

Prerequisite: Control [FEAT], Force-Sensitive [FEAT] (or, here: be a dragonborn)

Benefit: You get a +2 aptitude bonus to all Battlemind checks and Force Defense checks. Remember that the Battlemind skill canít be used untrained.

Battlemind being a skill you roll to gain an attack bonus up to +5, and Force Defence a Saving Throw bonus up to +10 Vs all Force-based attack (including skills and feats)

With this I think we need something that gives you a push when you need it like you can ad con or cha to a certain roll so you can keep going or maybe when you get hit or fail a saving throw and you would get below 0hitpoints you can gain advantage on the saving throw or the enemy has disadvantage on their attack.

I think the main problem is that we are trying to make a characteristic in to a ability to use so it needs to be possible to use it with different abilities so you can make your metal suit when you need it or keep on going with that broken leg.

maybe 2 abilities 1 that has to do with physical endurance and on with mental ingenuity.
How do we make a deadline pressure in to a ability?

weaseldust
2016-02-06, 06:21 PM
Just a couple of suggestions based on the above discussion.

Determination: You are not easily swayed from your course once you have chosen it. You have advantage on saving throws against being forced to act or cease acting against your will.

Intellectual Curiosity: Once your interest in a subject is kindled, you revel in seeking out all kinds of trivia about it. You have a way with both ideas and people that helps you collect and collate such facts. You can add your charisma modifier to intelligence checks made to recall or research information about subjects you are familiar with.

Gastronomie
2016-02-06, 07:38 PM
What about giving a different racial bonus for each ancestry?

For instance, Intimidation to Red, Deception to Green, History to Black, Survival to White, Persuation to Silver, that sort. Not sure what to give to others but.

Or maybe, an ability that allows you to breath in water to Black and Bronze. Stuff like that?

Giving the Natural Explorer ability to them could work as well. Them being like, volcanos for red, desert for blue, forests for green, swamps for black, arctic stuff for white, etc...

Some ideas.

StorytellerHero
2016-02-06, 07:45 PM
I saw the word ribbons, and the first thing that came to mind was a dragon born in heavy plated armor wrapping silk ribbons around his horns and calling it "battle couture".

TundraBuccaneer
2016-02-07, 03:31 AM
Just a couple of suggestions based on the above discussion.

Determination: You are not easily swayed from your course once you have chosen it. You have advantage on saving throws against being forced to act or cease acting against your will.

Intellectual Curiosity: Once your interest in a subject is kindled, you revel in seeking out all kinds of trivia about it. You have a way with both ideas and people that helps you collect and collate such facts. You can add your charisma modifier to intelligence checks made to recall or research information about subjects you are familiar with.

I like these they don't come up often but when they do it'll give you just a little push you need.


What about giving a different racial bonus for each ancestry?

For instance, Intimidation to Red, Deception to Green, History to Black, Survival to White, Persuation to Silver, that sort. Not sure what to give to others but.

Or maybe, an ability that allows you to breath in water to Black and Bronze. Stuff like that?

Giving the Natural Explorer ability to them could work as well. Them being like, volcanos for red, desert for blue, forests for green, swamps for black, arctic stuff for white, etc...

Some ideas.

Well the thing is I don't like the fact that dragonborn dont have anything but dragon stuff they need something to call their own. Even when people describe dragonborn art its always just dragons and that is silly they must have more going on than just being a race of just not dragons.

I my self am running a campain in which monstrosities dragons are created by wizards to fight in a huge war against steampunk warmachines. So dragons them selves are only around for like 1,2maybe 3 thousand years. So the name dragonborn it self is new and more a slur that has taken hold in the common tong but elves and dragonborn them selves don't call them that.

And in other games races will not call them selves ...people/folk they however might call humans the short sightedfolk or elves the mysterious ones. So I want dragonborn to be a race in their own right that can do stuff not dragon related.
Even tieflings ,whom are closer related to devils that dragonborn to dragons, don't have to be evil or shady they can be a paladin(if they are aloud to join the order).


I saw the word ribbons, and the first thing that came to mind was a dragon born in heavy plated armor wrapping silk ribbons around his horns and calling it "battle couture".

I like my dragonborn fancy.(also ribbon means fluff)

Fishybugs
2016-02-09, 01:02 PM
Claw and bite attacks?

Blobsy
2016-02-12, 01:36 PM
As fas as I can tell, Dragonborn are filled with pride. When they say they will do something, they will never go back on their words.

For that reason (and this may be just a small addition) I believe Dragonborn should have advantage on saving throws against being frightened, because their fear of losing face is often much bigger than the threat in front of their scaley noses.

I can't think of any other bonuses at the moment, but I think I got the right angle.

Alegast
2016-02-12, 11:01 PM
As fas as I can tell, Dragonborn are filled with pride. When they say they will do something, they will never go back on their words.

For that reason (and this may be just a small addition) I believe Dragonborn should have advantage on saving throws against being frightened, because their fear of losing face is often much bigger than the threat in front of their scaley noses.

I can't think of any other bonuses at the moment, but I think I got the right angle.

Couple that with a skill or a tool mastery related to their race (or even, a weapon proficiency), and I feel we have a less boring dragonborn here.

Sir cryosin
2016-02-14, 11:16 AM
Dig- deep: the odds are against you or you just so focus on any task you are trying to accomplish. You put it all in to it. pushing you to or pass your limits x amount times a long rest you can add your Constitution modifier to any d20 roll

Blobsy
2016-02-14, 05:26 PM
I've also noticed in the Monster Manual that all dragons have blindsight and darkvision. Perhaps it is something the Dragonborn should have as well.

And maybe an AC bonus should be a thing too, if you take a look at the AC of dragons. It is mentioned as a natural armor, so I suppose the scales must be really thick. 16 AC (the lowest AC for wyrmlings) might be a little too high, but I think a base AC of 11 or 12 for Dragonborn might be nice. After all, a sorcerer with Draconic ancestry gets a base of 13. Although since they are not trained to wear any armour, it makes sense. But it might not be fair to meet a Dragonborn fighter wearing full plate (meaning 13+8(the additional AC you get from plate armor)=21AC, 23 when carrying a shield), so maybe just 1 or 2AC extra might be better.

However, these are just stats to make the Dragonborn more alike their dragon kin. I'm afraid haven't thought of anything to enricht the Dragonborn culture that could be of use for racial bonuses.

Blobsy
2016-02-14, 05:36 PM
Come to think of it, the Handbook mentiones this: "A Dragonborn holds mastery of a particular skill as a lifetime goal."

It might be an idea to have the Dragonborn pick either an additional skill from the skill list or a tool proficiency.

Another thing I have on my mind, but is still far from perfection (it might still come in handy, so I'm going to post this in here after all), is to divide the race into 'subraces', each focussed on a specific type of skill for the dragonborn. I didn't think of any specifics for the subclasses, but there could be one that mentions the warrior archetype and a second one mainly focussed on the magical area of the game. And I'm not sure about a third, but that one could be more RP or merchant-like based. "They excell in the arts of selling their produce at high prices!" (Advantage on intimidation checks).

Just to be clear that last part in italic was a joke.

TundraBuccaneer
2016-02-14, 06:22 PM
Oke I've taken a closer look ate the race analysis/creation guide
(the one from the homebrew compendium)

And they rate the dragonborn at 4,5 while most races are around 5,5-6
they count skill abilities as 0,5 and as well lucky(from halflings).

So I think 2 abilities are enough:
Strenght of will:
As a drangonborn you put extra effort in things you find important, so much so that you focus your mind and body as one to over come an obstacle if it mental or physical you will try find a way past it.
When making an abilities check you can add your constitution modifier to the roll once per short/long rest.

I dont know if this includes attacks and saving throws but it is better I rather it doesn't.
also I'm not sure about the short rest part but in the games I played so far we have rarely taken a short rest so I don't know how powerful it could be

Expert
you gain proficiantcy in a tool or weapon (maby both?) of your choice