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dokugin
2016-02-07, 03:47 AM
Follow this link to see the newest versions of the guildmages! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477918-The-Guildmage-a-series-of-warlock-archetypes-Magic-the-Gathering-Expansion)
Prototype idea for a Guildmage from magic the gathering into a warlock archetype. For the big MTG D&D project over in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474659-Magic-The-Gathering-5e-overhaul-project-WIP)

The Guilds of Ravnica are ten sociopolitical factions that hold power on the city plane of Ravnica. Each guild has its own distinct ideology that unifies its members with one another, with the guild itself, with its functions and purposes, and with its structure. Each guild features its own guildmages

The Guildpact is an ancient and epic piece of magic that reverberates across the plane of Ravnica. Originally conceived of by the lawmage Azor I, it serves as a basis for all Ravnican law, setting statutes and ordinances for each guild so that each of the ten guilds has its own place. Its magic is enforced especially in the most significant representatives of the guilds, such as the League of Wojek. For instance, when a Wojek officer wishes to imprison someone who has directly violated a Guildpact law, it is possible to restrain them utterly. Not even paruns are capable of breaking such a seal.

The Guildpact itself is focused upon an ancient, primeval living document signed with blood and magic by each of the paruns to represent their willingness to work together to hold the city together. Of course, not surprisingly, the leaders since then ó including the still-living paruns ó have worked hard to find loopholes in which to set forward their own plans. As a side effect the Guildpact prohibited planeswalkers from visting the plane of Ravnica.(MTG Salvation)

Guildmage
Your magic comes from your guild and the power of the Guildpact. At 1st level choose your guild, this will determine your color identity and subsequently your spell list.

http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/thumb/2/2b/Guilds_of_Ravnica.png/617px-Guilds_of_Ravnica.png
Link to spell list (http://mtgdnd.jimdo.com/spell-colors/)(Subject to change)


White/Blue Azorius Senate-Ravnica's government and legal sector.
Blue/Black House Dimir-Ravnica's couriers, information brokers, and librarians.
Black/Red Cult of Rakdos-Ravnica's entertainment, food industry, mining, and other blue-collar manual labor and pink-collar service sectors.
Red/Green Gruul Clans-Ravnica's foresters, gamekeepers, park rangers, wildlife officers, and wilds keepers.
Green/White Selesnya Conclave-Conservationists and charities, as well as a nature cult that competes with the Orzhova faith.
White/Black Orzhov Syndicate-Ravnica's dominant religious order, as well as its largest bank.
Blue/Red Izzet League-Ravnica's formative and physical scientists and engineers.
Black/Green Golgari Swarm-Ravnica's agricultural and waste management sectors.
Red/White Boros Legion-Ravnica's security force, constabulary, and standing army.
Green/Blue Simic Combine-Ravnica's life scientists and conservationists.



Rule of Law
At 1st level when you see someone breaking the laws of your guild you may speak a one-word command to a creature you can
see within 60 feet. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or follow the command on its next turn. The spell has no effect if the target is undead, if it doesnít understand your language, or if your command is directly harmful to it.
The DM determines how the target behaves to your command. If the target canít follow your command, the the effect ends.

Counter Magic
At 6th level, you learn to magically ward yourself against attack and to turn an enemyís failed strike into an advantage for yourself. When a creature makes an attack
roll against you, you can use your reaction to impose disadvantage on that roll. If the attack misses you, your next attack roll against the creature has advantage if you make it before the end of your next turn. Once you use this feature, you canít use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

Prepared for War
Starting at 10th level, you can choose one damage type when you finish a short or long rest. You gain resistance to that damage type until you choose a different one
with this feature. Damage from magical weapons or silver weapons ignores this resistance.

The Pact's Protection
When you reach 14th level, your loyalty to your guild and the the laws of the Guildpact have given you a boon. On your turn, you can use a bonus action to regain hit points equal to ld8 +your
warlock level. Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

Don't have much experience with making archetypes so basically just mashed together PHB archetypes with SCAG archetypes and re-fluffed them. At the moment it is sort of a mess, would love feedback and suggestions on how to better balance it so that no matter what guild you pick you can have a good time. If you have any better ideas for archetype features let me know! Also if you are interested you should check out the Big MTG D&D thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474659-Magic-The-Gathering-5e-overhaul-project-WIP) and add you voice to the discussion.

Amnoriath
2016-02-07, 07:46 PM
1. Okay I get that you are making sub-classes for a campaign setting but aside from a couple of bad abilities of both ends of the spectrum and forgetting bonus spells I'm not sure if you understand what a Warlock is and what its sub-class is about. When you present the Guild in your flavor you speak of a very real world and vast organization in which these Warlocks are a part of but Warlocks beseech more powerful and/or esoteric beings outside of the pantheons and their religious ideals(domains). Beings that most certainly aren't just part of the Material Plane.
2. Your 1st level ability is broken beyond repair. What happens when you give an open ended command such as "Obey" if the proper context is given? Even if you reduce it down to the Command spell it is still an at will 1st level spell which is way too much for level 1.
3. While the rest of the abilities follow others your 14th level feature is a worse a Second Wind which is a 2nd level feature. So you need to fix that to at least match but I would highly recommend changing it.
4. As I said you forgot bonus spells so when fixing this remember these are class features too so you can make a good and whole concept of a sub-class.

MAL1CE
2016-02-08, 01:26 AM
To reply to your first point, although the guildmages are a subclass of warlock, they are NOT a warlock in their essence. We will simply be using the warlock as the host class because it functionally makes sense.

Here is an example of an Azorius Lawmage, one of the ten guildmage subclasses. You would simply use this subclass in the place of the otherworldly patron (Instead you will be answering to your guildmaster.)

Believing their legislation to be the singular force that prevents Ravnica from descending into chaos, the Azorius Senate mediates and regulates the activities of all of the other guilds and of the plane despite numerous of their decrees being ignored. The Azorius Senate are characterized as being aloof, bureaucratic, excessively formalistic, and fastidious, spending hours upon hours with legal documents and ensuring action, if any should occur, stringently adheres to protocol. For such reasons, the Azorius are deeply disdained by Ravnicans, whom the Azorius believe will effect a change and subsequent crime, chaos, and general decline in civic life. The Azorius are said to act through inaction.

The Azorius Senate works alongside the Boros Legion and Selesnya Conclave to see to the enforcement of the law and theOrzhov Syndicate, to the provision of advocates and lawmages for accusers/claimants/complainants/plaintiffs and defendants. Ultimately, however, the Azorius advocates for blind justice, peace, and the status quo, doing so via their intrinsic involvement in all affairs on Ravnica and with their legions of knights and paladins as well as mages adept in countermagic, magic to disable and hinder those who would break the law, and other law magic.

FEATURES
As an Azorius Lawmage, your patron is Isperia, the Supreme Judge. This majestic sphinx stands for law and order. You're primary purpose is upholding those laws at all costs. You do not stand for injustice or lawbreaking of any kind. Your spell list includes all spells in Blue and White.

RESILIENCE OF THE MIND
Beginning at 1st level, you become resistant to mind influencing magic. you have advantage on any roll to resist or end spells or effects that would force you to make an action against your nature.

GIFT OF FLIGHT
Beginning at 6th level you gain the ability to grant other creatures flight. You may cast the fly spell once per long rest without expending a spell slot.

THOUGHT SHIELD
Starting at 10th level, your thoughts canít be read by telepathy or other means unless you allow it. You also have resistance to psychic damage, and whenever a creature deals psychic damage to you, that creature takes the same amount of damage that you do.

DETAIN
Beginning at 14th level, you gain the ability to suspend other creatures in a magical stasis field. You may use your action to cast Otiluke's Resilient Sphere once per long rest without expending a spell slot.

The page on my site can be found here (http://mtgdnd.jimdo.com/classes/guildmage/azorius/)

Amnoriath
2016-02-08, 07:40 AM
To reply to your first point, although the guildmages are a subclass of warlock, they are NOT a warlock in their essence. We will simply be using the warlock as the host class because it functionally makes sense.

Here is an example of an Azorius Lawmage, one of the ten guildmage subclasses. You would simply use this subclass in the place of the otherworldly patron (Instead you will be answering to your guildmaster.)

Believing their legislation to be the singular force that prevents Ravnica from descending into chaos, the Azorius Senate mediates and regulates the activities of all of the other guilds and of the plane despite numerous of their decrees being ignored. The Azorius Senate are characterized as being aloof, bureaucratic, excessively formalistic, and fastidious, spending hours upon hours with legal documents and ensuring action, if any should occur, stringently adheres to protocol. For such reasons, the Azorius are deeply disdained by Ravnicans, whom the Azorius believe will effect a change and subsequent crime, chaos, and general decline in civic life. The Azorius are said to act through inaction.

The Azorius Senate works alongside the Boros Legion and Selesnya Conclave to see to the enforcement of the law and theOrzhov Syndicate, to the provision of advocates and lawmages for accusers/claimants/complainants/plaintiffs and defendants. Ultimately, however, the Azorius advocates for blind justice, peace, and the status quo, doing so via their intrinsic involvement in all affairs on Ravnica and with their legions of knights and paladins as well as mages adept in countermagic, magic to disable and hinder those who would break the law, and other law magic.

FEATURES
As an Azorius Lawmage, your patron is Isperia, the Supreme Judge. This majestic sphinx stands for law and order. You're primary purpose is upholding those laws at all costs. You do not stand for injustice or lawbreaking of any kind. Your spell list includes all spells in Blue and White.

RESILIENCE OF THE MIND
Beginning at 1st level, you become resistant to mind influencing magic. you have advantage on any roll to resist or end spells or effects that would force you to make an action against your nature.

GIFT OF FLIGHT
Beginning at 6th level you gain the ability to grant other creatures flight. You may cast the fly spell once per long rest without expending a spell slot.

THOUGHT SHIELD
Starting at 10th level, your thoughts canít be read by telepathy or other means unless you allow it. You also have resistance to psychic damage, and whenever a creature deals psychic damage to you, that creature takes the same amount of damage that you do.

DETAIN
Beginning at 14th level, you gain the ability to suspend other creatures in a magical stasis field. You may use your action to cast Otiluke's Resilient Sphere once per long rest without expending a spell slot.

The page on my site can be found here (http://mtgdnd.jimdo.com/classes/guildmage/azorius/)

You don't get what I am saying. Of course I know you guys are making a sub-class. The problem is you aren't using any of the Warlock's flavor and therefore forsaking the fact that the sub-classes are called Otherworldly Patrons. Instead of creating powerful beings to which you render your powers from not only did you make it very specific but you took so much RP potential by just making it an organization person.

Flashy
2016-02-08, 07:46 AM
You don't get what I am saying. Of course I know you guys are making a sub-class. The problem is you aren't using any of the Warlock's flavor and therefore forsaking the fact that the sub-classes are called Otherworldly Patrons. Instead of creating powerful beings to which you render your powers from not only did you make it very specific but you took so much RP potential by just making it an organization person.

I don't know that there's a terrible amount of fluff difference between having a specific entity as your patron and having a larger organization as your patron. Even if there is, this project seems to be an entire redesign of the game's fluff and features to bring it more in line with the Magic the Gathering universe. It doesn't seem like a critical flaw that it departs from the base 5e class assumptions.

What I AM wondering about is how this interacts with the pacts, since warlocks essentially select two subclasses. Are Blade Pact guildmages appropriate to the universe?

EDIT: The invocation system also strongly encourages warlocks to rely on eldritch blast, which is presumably restricted by the spell color system. Any thoughts on how to counter that? A warlock spamming Firebolt is going to look pretty silly standing next to one with Agonizing Blast.

CantigThimble
2016-02-08, 10:12 AM
Eldritch blast could be replaced with color appropriate cantrips and agonizing blast changed to affect your colors' cantrips. This does weaken the class significantly so they should probably get an extra spell slot or two to compensate.

MAL1CE
2016-02-08, 10:25 AM
Eldritch blast could be replaced with color appropriate cantrips and agonizing blast changed to affect your colors' cantrips. This does weaken the class significantly so they should probably get an extra spell slot or two to compensate.

I could make an eldritch blast equivilant for each color (basically just change its flavor and elemental type.) eldritch blast, flame blast, Ice Beam, Druidic Blast and Sun blast, for example.

Edit: I could also just make Eldritch blast colorless, and make it available to all colors.

MAL1CE
2016-02-08, 10:42 AM
You don't get what I am saying. Of course I know you guys are making a sub-class. The problem is you aren't using any of the Warlock's flavor and therefore forsaking the fact that the sub-classes are called Otherworldly Patrons. Instead of creating powerful beings to which you render your powers from not only did you make it very specific but you took so much RP potential by just making it an organization person.

I totally understand what you are saying. Im trying to explain that I am only using the stats of the warlock class, the fluff doesn't matter because I'm re-fluffing it. Guildmages, unlike warlocks, don't draw their power from an Otherworldly Patron, they have the natural ability to tap into magic. The guildmasters replace the otherworldy patrons in name but not in purpose. A guildmage has loyalty to their guild, but they are capable of acting and thinking independantly. The guildmaster explains two things, in an RP sense; The background of the guildmage and Their color alignment.

I will reiterate. Guildmages ARE NOT Warlocks, in the RP sense. They do not serve an otherworldly patron, and their magical abilities are self contained.

dokugin
2016-02-09, 02:35 AM
Amnoriath, since you responded with a list I shall do so as well.

1. Okay I get that you are making sub-classes for a campaign setting but aside from a couple of bad abilities of both ends of the spectrum and forgetting bonus spells I'm not sure if you understand what a Warlock is and what its sub-class is about. When you present the Guild in your flavor you speak of a very real world and vast organization in which these Warlocks are a part of but Warlocks beseech more powerful and/or esoteric beings outside of the pantheons and their religious ideals(domains). Beings that most certainly aren't just part of the Material Plane.1. Some simple googling, and following the links I provided would have cleared up most of your "issues" you have A guildmage gets their power from the guildpact which in MTG is not some simple piece of paper with laws written on it. It is a powerful and binding magical force that governs the entire plane of existence. If you really cant get past the otherworldly being part of the fluff, the Guildpact itself does eventually take on physical form.
2.Which guild they are a part of and who their guild master is determines what powers they can use, which helps strengthen the fluff of choosing your colors. It also determines their entire spell list so the idea of bonus spells is mute, since they wont be using the base warlock spell list.

2. Your 1st level ability is broken beyond repair. What happens when you give an open ended command such as "Obey" if the proper context is given? Even if you reduce it down to the Command spell it is still an at will 1st level spell which is way too much for level 1.
3. While the rest of the abilities follow others your 14th level feature is a worse a Second Wind which is a 2nd level feature. So you need to fix that to at least match but I would highly recommend changing it.
4. As I said you forgot bonus spells so when fixing this remember these are class features too so you can make a good and whole concept of a sub-class.

You don't get what I am saying. Of course I know you guys are making a sub-class. The problem is you aren't using any of the Warlock's flavor and therefore forsaking the fact that the sub-classes are called Otherworldly Patrons. Instead of creating powerful beings to which you render your powers from not only did you make it very specific but you took so much RP potential by just making it an organization person.
3.If your were reading the ability the fluff backs up the crunch "when you see someone breaking the laws of your guild" Not only does it fit the lore but it has specific stipulations as to when the ability can be used.
4. Finally what a horrible reply, all you have done is complained and offered no solutions to any of your so called problems. Instead of just saying "Your 1st level ability is broken beyond repair" why not try to provide an alternate solution. Like; a different feature or even a tweak that you think would better balance it. In all effective purposes you have added nothing to the discussion on trying to make this a better piece of work. I suggest you read this helpful piece about how to give better feedback (http://www.naturalcrit.com/homebrew/share/41R_HRZ9l).

or learn by example from Flashy


I don't know that there's a terrible amount of fluff difference between having a specific entity as your patron and having a larger organization as your patron. Even if there is, this project seems to be an entire redesign of the game's fluff and features to bring it more in line with the Magic the Gathering universe. It doesn't seem like a critical flaw that it departs from the base 5e class assumptions.

What I AM wondering about is how this interacts with the pacts, since warlocks essentially select two subclasses. Are Blade Pact guildmages appropriate to the universe?

The invocation system also strongly encourages warlocks to rely on eldritch blast, which is presumably restricted by the spell color system. Any thoughts on how to counter that? A warlock spamming Firebolt is going to look pretty silly standing next to one with Agonizing Blast.

Even if he hasn't said much in the way of actual critiquing of this project, he has brought up something that wasn't addressed in the original post. His question addresses his concerns and brings to light an actual design problem that needs to be considered when trying to improve the development of this project.

Flashy, hadn't really thought about that, but great question. I feel MAL1CE's solution of just making it colorless is the simplest and most effective work around for the eldritch blast. However in regards to the pacts, technically there is no conflict between the fluff and the pacts themselves. Many of the guilds and the mages themselves have different ideologies and practices, so it would not be wrong to say that different pacts would align better with certain guilds. Which would be a great way to involve more unique pacts, I have always enjoyed the work that Submortimer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420298-My-Extended-Homebrew-Signature&p=19372539#post19372539) has done in regards to warlocks, their pact boons, and invocations. If you had any ideas for some I would love to hear them.

MAL1CE
2016-02-09, 10:04 AM
I moved this thread over to here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477918-The-Guildmage-a-series-of-warlock-archetypes-Magic-the-Gathering-Expansion&p=20402153#post20402153)

To avoid spamming/confusion, just move the conversation over there. I did this so that I can update the first post as I go.

Amnoriath
2016-02-09, 11:28 AM
Amnoriath, since you responded with a list I shall do so as well.
1. Some simple googling, and following the links I provided would have cleared up most of your "issues" you have A guildmage gets their power from the guildpact which in MTG is not some simple piece of paper with laws written on it. It is a powerful and binding magical force that governs the entire plane of existence. If you really cant get past the otherworldly being part of the fluff, the Guildpact itself does eventually take on physical form.
2.Which guild they are a part of and who their guild master is determines what powers they can use, which helps strengthen the fluff of choosing your colors. It also determines their entire spell list so the idea of bonus spells is mute, since they wont be using the base warlock spell list.


3.If your were reading the ability the fluff backs up the crunch "when you see someone breaking the laws of your guild" Not only does it fit the lore but it has specific stipulations as to when the ability can be used.
4. Finally what a horrible reply, all you have done is complained and offered no solutions to any of your so called problems. Instead of just saying "Your 1st level ability is broken beyond repair" why not try to provide an alternate solution. Like; a different feature or even a tweak that you think would better balance it. In all effective purposes you have added nothing to the discussion on trying to make this a better piece of work. I suggest you read this helpful piece about how to give better feedback (http://www.naturalcrit.com/homebrew/share/41R_HRZ9l).

or learn by example from Flashy



Even if he hasn't said much in the way of actual critiquing of this project, he has brought up something that wasn't addressed in the original post. His question addresses his concerns and brings to light an actual design problem that needs to be considered when trying to improve the development of this project.

Flashy, hadn't really thought about that, but great question. I feel MAL1CE's solution of just making it colorless is the simplest and most effective work around for the eldritch blast. However in regards to the pacts, technically there is no conflict between the fluff and the pacts themselves. Many of the guilds and the mages themselves have different ideologies and practices, so it would not be wrong to say that different pacts would align better with certain guilds. Which would be a great way to involve more unique pacts, I have always enjoyed the work that Submortimer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420298-My-Extended-Homebrew-Signature&p=19372539#post19372539) has done in regards to warlocks, their pact boons, and invocations. If you had any ideas for some I would love to hear them.

1. But the problem is that you are making a whole slew of sub-classes using this exact same type of background as such your Warlock flavor wise is identical to your Sorcerer and Wizard archetypes. The whole idea of an Otherworldy Patron is that it is an esoteric source different than the academic study of the Wizard and the born/innate power Sorcerer. The only thing different is you are calling them a Guildmage so to be different it kind of must be an organization person as per your flavor.
2. I saw that a little later but by doing so you nerfed the Warlock overall. The list themselves aren't even balanced against each other. The Colorless list is filled with spells that not only take a while but have really expensive components or possibly even backlash effects as well as being the smallest of the bunch. Green and Blue have the most variety of spells.
3. But that is the context now isn't it, you see the problem is who is considered to be breaking the law of your guild? Is it just other guild members, surrounding community, or is it any person who does something counter to your beliefs? The first two are very limited questioning its usefulness and the last one makes it the best 1st level at will ability in the game.
4. The problem is though I am not sure what you are going for. I don't want to say what to do until I know what you specifically want otherwise I am forcing my vision on it. All these colors are fundamentally different to one another and here you made an umbrella sub-class that is an enforcer of each different guild with the same abilities. I am not sure if you just wanted to make this simple and copy others for balance or if they really are that similar and this is their abilities. Personally given the vast differences between the colors you need different Warlocks for each one giving using a manifestation of each one. I am sorry for being harsh but I really think that not only you lost the idea of what a Warlock in the transport but you haven't done any specific color justice while having abilities that really should be switched around in terms of appropriate power levels.

Amnoriath
2016-02-09, 11:36 AM
I don't know that there's a terrible amount of fluff difference between having a specific entity as your patron and having a larger organization as your patron. Even if there is, this project seems to be an entire redesign of the game's fluff and features to bring it more in line with the Magic the Gathering universe. It doesn't seem like a critical flaw that it departs from the base 5e class assumptions.

What I AM wondering about is how this interacts with the pacts, since warlocks essentially select two subclasses. Are Blade Pact guildmages appropriate to the universe?

EDIT: The invocation system also strongly encourages warlocks to rely on eldritch blast, which is presumably restricted by the spell color system. Any thoughts on how to counter that? A warlock spamming Firebolt is going to look pretty silly standing next to one with Agonizing Blast.

1. There is a difference. Guilds evoke academic learning and very lawful behavior in most settings as well as this one. Otherwordly Patrons don't unless they are beings of said law but usually with certain contexts.
2. But its redesigns are making it way too similar to other things he is doing. The sub-classes are suppose to set different RP contexts for both the player and DM to utilize. If you have too many using the same one it limits what the group

MAL1CE
2016-02-09, 11:43 AM
I moved this thread over to here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477918-The-Guildmage-a-series-of-warlock-archetypes-Magic-the-Gathering-Expansion&p=20402153#post20402153)

To avoid spamming/confusion, just move the conversation over there. I did this so that I can update the first post as I go.

Amnoriath, to answer your last point, the initial post here is not entirely accurate. I am creating a different subclass for each of the ten guilds, each with unique abilities. Also to put Dokugin's point a little more gently, the point of this thread is to improve upon our creation, not just bash it's flaws. They are imperfect, and we know that. Provide us with not only the issue you find but with some input on how to improve it. For example, you have pointed out that spell chart is unbalanced. I can accept this, its a first attempt. But give me a little more, what would you do to solve it?

And again, for the final time, the guildmage is only a warlock in stats, not in flavor. I'm recreating the MTG universe to the best of my ability, and the nature of the guildmage is as we have described it. I won't change the nature of the guildmage from its canon form to resemble the warlock more closely because somebody on the internet can't handle it. I'm not trying to shut you down, but the guildmage is just that: a Guildmage. If you don't like the guildmage, don't play one.

And finally I would like to make the point that the classes I have posted so far are by no means the only classes I intend to include. They are simply what I am working on at the moment. The end result will probably be upward of 15 classes each with subclasses based on color choice.

Edit:

1. There is a difference. Guilds evoke academic learning and very lawful behavior in most settings as well as this one. Otherwordly Patrons don't unless they are beings of said law but usually with certain contexts.
2. But its redesigns are making it way too similar to other things he is doing. The sub-classes are suppose to set different RP contexts for both the player and DM to utilize. If you have too many using the same one it limits what the group

1. Not all guilds do. Rakdos for example is chaotic and totally unguided. For the purposes of RP, the guildmages are tied by contract to a certain set of laws, which I may write out, but they are free to travel and adventure so long as it is in the interest, or at the very least not in violation of their guild. And the guilds of ravnica don't necessarily require sole allegiance. As long as you aren't betraying the guild, the guildmages are quite free to do as they please.
2. Guildmages are tied to a guild. Wizards are more diverse, and not bound to any entity. Spellshapers are a much more specialized wizard which acts more like a sorcerer (but is RPed like a wizard in many ways.) There will in the future be Knights, Sorcerers, Acolytes, Mages, Rogues, Monks and probably some more that I havent thought of yet. There will be a diversity of choices. Let's not get bogged down by "these two classes are too alike" and focus more on "according to MTG lore, how should these classes function"

Amnoriath
2016-02-09, 11:49 AM
I totally understand what you are saying. Im trying to explain that I am only using the stats of the warlock class, the fluff doesn't matter because I'm re-fluffing it. Guildmages, unlike warlocks, don't draw their power from an Otherworldly Patron, they have the natural ability to tap into magic. The guildmasters replace the otherworldy patrons in name but not in purpose. A guildmage has loyalty to their guild, but they are capable of acting and thinking independantly. The guildmaster explains two things, in an RP sense; The background of the guildmage and Their color alignment.

I will reiterate. Guildmages ARE NOT Warlocks, in the RP sense. They do not serve an otherworldly patron, and their magical abilities are self contained.

The problem is though you two clearly have different visions of what a Guildmage is. You have a different sub-class with a specific entity and/or color. You only have two things wrong with yours is that there isn't a mind-affecting notation any more so you need to specify frightened, charmed, or specific saves to gain better idea what you mean. You also need to specify the level of the spells of those additional spell slots. He is trying to have an umbrella sub-class while expecting people to know the difference while having little difference between all of them while some has better spell lists than others. You defending him is only confusing others to understand what you either of you are doing.

Amnoriath
2016-02-09, 11:56 AM
1. Not all guilds do. Rakdos for example is chaotic and totally unguided. For the purposes of RP, the guildmages are tied by contract to a certain set of laws, which I may write out, but they are free to travel and adventure so long as it is in the interest, or at the very least not in violation of their guild. And the guilds of ravnica don't necessarily require sole allegiance. As long as you aren't betraying the guild, the guildmages are quite free to do as they please.
2. Guildmages are tied to a guild. Wizards are more diverse, and not bound to any entity. Spellshapers are a much more specialized wizard which acts more like a sorcerer (but is RPed like a wizard in many ways.) There will in the future be Knights, Sorcerers, Acolytes, Mages, Rogues, Monks and probably some more that I havent thought of yet. There will be a diversity of choices. Let's not get bogged down by "these two classes are too alike" and focus more on "according to MTG lore, how should these classes function"

1. Again your sub-classes do, not his. This is not helping your cause.
2. Again its my point against his, so please continue with your vision. I will openly say yours has a better direction currently. You playing defense for him is not helping you or him.

MAL1CE
2016-02-09, 12:09 PM
You only have two things wrong with yours is that there isn't a mind-affecting notation any more so you need to specify frightened, charmed, or specific saves to gain better idea what you mean. You also need to specify the level of the spells of those additional spell slots. He is trying to have an umbrella sub-class while expecting people to know the difference while having little difference between all of them while some has better spell lists than others. You defending him is only confusing others to understand what you either of you are doing.

I appreciate the feedback, this is helpful. Could I ask you to continue further discussion on my other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477918-The-Guildmage-a-series-of-warlock-archetypes-Magic-the-Gathering-Expansion)? Its more current, and I will be updating that one, not this one.