Being Evil and having Repercussions (Namely, PvP)

[Jbr208]

Hi folks, had a small problem arose that could end poorly for my 13th level party and wanted the playground's opinion on somethings. Apologies now for length.

We had a halfling rogue in our group who grew tired of his character and wanted to retire him. He couldn't think of a way to do so that made sense in character, however. So out of character, the player asked me to murder him while away from the rest of the group.

Murder happens, no real evidence left behind except for puddles of blood, lots of bodies, and some symbols of Tiamat (playing Rise of Tiamat). Rogue Player becomes Warlock #2 Player (I'm Warlock #1 Player a.k.a. The Tiefling).

The problem is that our Dragonborn Paladin (vengeance, for the record) was fond of the (insane) halfling rogue. It's fine for a while, because we're busy and the apparent evidence implicates the Cult of the Dragon; but we're reaching a point where there is some downtime and Paladin wants to find someone to cast Speak with Dead to learn more about Rogue's murder. He has also taken to carrying the corpse of Rogue with him, just in case we actually have the time to cast the damn spell.

I picked up an invocation that lets me cast Speak with Dead at-will, and decided to tell the Paladin this so I could control the time and place of the casting. It still hasn't occurred, but I am predictably anxious about it.


1) Instead of casting Speak with Dead, cast Create Undead and turn the Halfling into a Wight; then just murder the paladin and potentially the rest of the non-warlock party. I call this the nuclear option, and is not a serious contender (particularly because I need two more levels to take my last mystic arcanum and I haven't picked it yet :p) Requires substantial time to even be possible.

2) Cast Speak with Dead, and ask questions that hopefully get the answers I want to craft the idea that Halfling doesn't know who murdered him (and the dozen or so whores in the brothel). This is the leading plan.

3) Cast Speak with Dead, and ask the question(s) Paladin wants. This includes the direct question: "Who killed you?" Hopefully, per the scene we wrote, Rogue doesn't know it was me. This may result in combat, and is a close second to option #2; I can take the paladin one-on-one, provided I win initiative.

4) Cast Dimension Door and flee. The panic button, and third in preference. Ends in a number of ways depending on how it unfolds, most likely rolling up a new character.

5) Pretend to cast Speak with Dead, actually cast Contact Other Plane as ritual spell. Relying on Paladin's ignorance to keep from getting attacked. This carries substantial risk due to the Intelligence Save and clear difference in spell. Dumb Paladin is only so dumb.

6) No pretending, go straight for the offensive options with the understanding that the other warlock supports me and the fighter that has been influenced by Hazirawn can be brought around to my way of thinking pretty easily. In our 8 person group, this scenario is pretty damn far from ideal.

7) Use AoE spells (like fireball) to try to destroy the body in combat, since Paladin is literally carrying it with him. Plausible deniability because I literally did this the adventure before he picked up the body.

8) Murderize the Paladin and potentially the Good members in their sleep. Swap a hex onto the paladin during a combat, wait until my watch, wake up Warlock #2 and Hazirawn bearer, eldritch blast Paladin, follow up with finger of death. Attempt to use Mass Suggestion to try to keep the rest of the group from splintering. May precede this by attempting to banish his two closest allies in their sleep. I recognize this as a TERRIBLE idea out-of-character, for the record, presenting it here as a matter of due diligence.

9) Use Suggestion or Mass Suggestion to get the Paladin to drop this fixation long enough to otherwise derail it permanently. Possibilities include, but are not limited to accidentally dropping the body down a well, or accidentally leaving it in a dungeon or something.

10) Pretend to cast Speak with Dead, use deception to make Paladin think the Cult of the Dragon has used Speak with Dead on the body recently. Use extra time to find opportunity to implement a non-violent (or simply less violent) solution.


I will say here that Paladin's Player knows OOC that I was responsible, and is looking to do a little PvP if Paladin finds out IC what happened. I also recognize that actions have consequences, even if the other player literally asks for it. I don't mind a little PvP. I do mind dying because I helped another player do what he wanted, however.

Thoughts on the proposed options? Other thoughts from the playground?

[Addaran]

Hi folks, had a small problem arose that could end poorly for my 13th level party and wanted the playground's opinion on somethings. Apologies now for length.

We had a halfling rogue in our group who grew tired of his character and wanted to retire him. He couldn't think of a way to do so that made sense in character, however. So out of character, the player asked me to murder him while away from the rest of the group.

Murder happens, no real evidence left behind except for puddles of blood, lots of bodies, and some symbols of Tiamat (playing Rise of Tiamat). Rogue Player becomes Warlock #2 Player (I'm Warlock #1 Player a.k.a. The Tiefling).

The problem is that our Dragonborn Paladin (vengeance, for the record) was fond of the (insane) halfling rogue. It's fine for a while, because we're busy and the apparent evidence implicates the Cult of the Dragon; but we're reaching a point where there is some downtime and Paladin wants to find someone to cast Speak with Dead to learn more about Rogue's murder. He has also taken to carrying the corpse of Rogue with him, just in case we actually have the time to cast the damn spell.

I picked up an invocation that lets me cast Speak with Dead at-will, and decided to tell the Paladin this so I could control the time and place of the casting. It still hasn't occurred, but I am predictably anxious about it.


1) Instead of casting Speak with Dead, cast Create Undead and turn the Halfling into a Wight; then just murder the paladin and potentially the rest of the non-warlock party. I call this the nuclear option, and is not a serious contender (particularly because I need two more levels to take my last mystic arcanum and I haven't picked it yet :p) Requires substantial time to even be possible.

2) Cast Speak with Dead, and ask questions that hopefully get the answers I want to craft the idea that Halfling doesn't know who murdered him (and the dozen or so whores in the brothel). This is the leading plan.

3) Cast Speak with Dead, and ask the question(s) Paladin wants. This includes the direct question: "Who killed you?" Hopefully, per the scene we wrote, Rogue doesn't know it was me. This may result in combat, and is a close second to option #2; I can take the paladin one-on-one, provided I win initiative.

4) Cast Dimension Door and flee. The panic button, and third in preference. Ends in a number of ways depending on how it unfolds, most likely rolling up a new character.

5) Pretend to cast Speak with Dead, actually cast Contact Other Plane as ritual spell. Relying on Paladin's ignorance to keep from getting attacked. This carries substantial risk due to the Intelligence Save and clear difference in spell. Dumb Paladin is only so dumb.

6) No pretending, go straight for the offensive options with the understanding that the other warlock supports me and the fighter that has been influenced by Hazirawn can be brought around to my way of thinking pretty easily. In our 8 person group, this scenario is pretty damn far from ideal.

7) Use AoE spells (like fireball) to try to destroy the body in combat, since Paladin is literally carrying it with him. Plausible deniability because I literally did this the adventure before he picked up the body.

8) Murderize the Paladin and potentially the Good members in their sleep. Swap a hex onto the paladin during a combat, wait until my watch, wake up Warlock #2 and Hazirawn bearer, eldritch blast Paladin, follow up with finger of death. Attempt to use Mass Suggestion to try to keep the rest of the group from splintering. May precede this by attempting to banish his two closest allies in their sleep. I recognize this as a TERRIBLE idea out-of-character, for the record, presenting it here as a matter of due diligence.

9) Use Suggestion or Mass Suggestion to get the Paladin to drop this fixation long enough to otherwise derail it permanently. Possibilities include, but are not limited to accidentally dropping the body down a well, or accidentally leaving it in a dungeon or something.

10) Pretend to cast Speak with Dead, use deception to make Paladin think the Cult of the Dragon has used Speak with Dead on the body recently. Use extra time to find opportunity to implement a non-violent (or simply less violent) solution.


I will say here that Paladin's Player knows OOC that I was responsible, and is looking to do a little PvP if Paladin finds out IC what happened. I also recognize that actions have consequences, even if the other player literally asks for it. I don't mind a little PvP. I do mind dying because I helped another player do what he wanted, however.

Thoughts on the proposed options? Other thoughts from the playground?


What's the group's stance on PvP? Was there talk during character creations about having an Evil character and a Paladin in the same group?

Unless the group is very OK with PvP, i wouldn't suggest murdering the paly and/or all the good members. Just like you don't want to die for helping another player, the others probably don't want to die just because player X wanted to change character.

Best solution would probably talk with the paladin's player OOC. Maybe you can aggree on the paladin being fooled. Or that you two fight it out but don't kill each others. (You win, the paladin must accept to let you go and not attack again cause you let him live. He wins, you won't kill any more members and will finish the "mission" (Tiamat) to atone).

More IC solutions, i'd try to pass the halfling as a Tiamat traitor and admit that you killed him while he was murdering whores for a weird ritual.
Cast suggestion(believe the warlock is trustworthy) while the paladin sleep (tell the DM so the player won't know) then cast Speak with the Dead when he wakes up and do a convincing lie.

[gameogre]

Bodies are NOT easy to carry around even small ones. Talk about messy and gross! Dude would stink to high hell and that is just the start! Just no. Only way to get away with that is a lot of spells or a DM who hand waves the insane amount of crap that would go wrong.

[Jbr208]

Bodies are NOT easy to carry around even small ones. Talk about messy and gross! Dude would stink to high hell and that is just the start! Just no. Only way to get away with that is a lot of spells or a DM who hand waves the insane amount of crap that would go wrong.

Dealing with the latter, for the record.


What's the group's stance on PvP? Was there talk during character creations about having an Evil character and a Paladin in the same group?

Unless the group is very OK with PvP, i wouldn't suggest murdering the paly and/or all the good members. Just like you don't want to die for helping another player, the others probably don't want to die just because player X wanted to change character.

Best solution would probably talk with the paladin's player OOC. Maybe you can aggree on the paladin being fooled. Or that you two fight it out but don't kill each others. (You win, the paladin must accept to let you go and not attack again cause you let him live. He wins, you won't kill any more members and will finish the "mission" (Tiamat) to atone).

More IC solutions, i'd try to pass the halfling as a Tiamat traitor and admit that you killed him while he was murdering whores for a weird ritual.
Cast suggestion(believe the warlock is trustworthy) while the paladin sleep (tell the DM so the player won't know) then cast Speak with the Dead when he wakes up and do a convincing lie.

Having an Evil character was discussed briefly, it was thought to likely be a non-issue since we the paladin's player was okay with the idea. At this point the Paladin himself is very nearly Evil in his crusade against the Cult of the Dragon and was being somewhat corrupted by the chaotic Halfling Assassin. For your other question, PvP hasn't been explicitly discussed, but Warlock #2 has made some use of the Dominate Person spell with the Paladin.
We were going to meet with the metallic dragons, and the Paladin was going to antagonize them and keep them from contributing. Actually his stated goal for the "encounter." So Warlock #2 dominated him and had him knock himself out before he could speak.

I fully understand the others not wanting to die for this stupid conflict, it's why I know option 8 to be terrible out of character. I don't want to have a huge fight erupt, but have to acknowledge that one may occur anyway. I do like the idea of using suggestion to make the Paladin more likely to trust me and using that trust to get him to either A) Drop the whole thing, or B) Hear me out when he hears it was me who gruesomely murdered the Halfling.

You're right, however, on talking to the other player. That, I believe, is one of the more standard approaches to this sort of problem. I often get lost in the search for IC options that I forget to just talk to the other player.

[Reverse]

IMO, you would need to have a very strong group OOC to not take PvP personally, especially if it is from someone playing an evil character who created the problem.
IC though you can bang home the importance of the greater evil out there and try to manipulate the paladin's oath.

[Shining Wrath]

New option:

Hire (out of sight of Paladin) some rogueish types to steal the body. Have them come while you are standing watch with the understanding that if they do anything other than steal the body you, bad warlock, will hurt them a lot in ways they won't understand as they die screaming.

Assuming Paladin fails his sleeping Perception check, the body disappears. Arrange (if you can) for a necromancer to turn the corpse into an undead, because Speak With Dead won't work on an undead. It is not clear to me what happens if a corpse becomes a zombie and then is destroyed - it would be DM call whether or not Speak with Dead works at all, or if it only works on events that occurred during the "life" of the zombie.

Did you speak with the DM before killing your fellow character? Do you think you can get the DM to cooperate in hiding the crime based on the fact that unwanted PvP is one of the leading causes of rage-quits?

[gfishfunk]

Another option: rework the scene so that the rogue attacked you, and you killed him in self-defense, or that the rogue decided to betray the party and turn them over to the big bad, etc. etc. etc.

Turn the 'murder' into a self-sacrificial turning of the tables.

[Jbr208]

IMO, you would need to have a very strong group OOC to not take PvP personally, especially if it is from someone playing an evil character who created the problem.
IC though you can bang home the importance of the greater evil out there and try to manipulate the paladin's oath.
1) So that's how multiple quotes are done more easily...
2) Entirely true, vis a vis needing a strong group to handle PvP "professionally." It is worth noting that while I did kill the Halfling, it was literally his player's idea and his request. This partially demonstrated to the group by having a new character ready to go the second his rogue was dead. I still killed him, so plenty of blame for that if the situation really does escalate.


New option:

Hire (out of sight of Paladin) some rogueish types to steal the body. Have them come while you are standing watch with the understanding that if they do anything other than steal the body you, bad warlock, will hurt them a lot in ways they won't understand as they die screaming.

Assuming Paladin fails his sleeping Perception check, the body disappears. Arrange (if you can) for a necromancer to turn the corpse into an undead, because Speak With Dead won't work on an undead. It is not clear to me what happens if a corpse becomes a zombie and then is destroyed - it would be DM call whether or not Speak with Dead works at all, or if it only works on events that occurred during the "life" of the zombie.

Did you speak with the DM before killing your fellow character? Do you think you can get the DM to cooperate in hiding the crime based on the fact that unwanted PvP is one of the leading causes of rage-quits?

I like this one, I always forget the value of hirelings.

In answer to your questions, the answers are (in order): Yes, and potentially. My DM was consulted as was the player of the other character. I had also assumed (which I realize just makes me an ass in this situation) we wouldn't need an investigation into the death given the clear prima facie evidence of a known enemy group having murdered the Halfling.


Another option: rework the scene so that the rogue attacked you, and you killed him in self-defense, or that the rogue decided to betray the party and turn them over to the big bad, etc. etc. etc.

Turn the 'murder' into a self-sacrificial turning of the tables.
This could require a little work, but is certainly doable. I rarely think of re-writing scenes like that, but it can certainly be done (particularly since the three people that know the "scene" are me, the former Halfling, and the DM). Solid plan, particularly since the rogue was primarily motivated by greed (like most adventurers in my experience :p).

[Addaran]

You're right, however, on talking to the other player. That, I believe, is one of the more standard approaches to this sort of problem. I often get lost in the search for IC options that I forget to just talk to the other player.

Yeah, i too prefer IC solutions, but in that case, the heart of the problem started OOC. You didn't really have a reason to kill the rogue.

I particularily love the retconning the scene solution from gfishfunk. Make sure you find/buy a scroll/potion of truth, so the paladin believes you. ;)

[saeval]

I mean, you could discuss it between the GM, and the dead character. say his soul does not wish to participate? happy where he is etc. maybe the soul is trapped with the warlocks master, who is doing the warlock a solid by F'ing up the casting.

That way, you can genuinely "try" to help, but still no answer to the mystery. I did it! I tried! you're arcana check even shows I casted the right spell!

I always enjoy stuff relating to souls/undeath/deals etc. It's so easy to say its not working like it normally does.

[Jbr208]

After discussing over drinks with DM and Paladin, there has been an OOC understanding: I can do whatever I want to try to obscure the facts, or delay their revelation; if Paladin learns the truth, we'll "settle it in the epilogue, if we survive." The understanding being that I won't murder him or any other party members (even at player request).

There was a lesson in this experience, and I thank you all for your input and advice.

[Shining Wrath]

After discussing over drinks with DM and Paladin, there has been an OOC understanding: I can do whatever I want to try to obscure the facts, or delay their revelation; if Paladin learns the truth, we'll "settle it in the epilogue, if we survive." The understanding being that I won't murder him or any other party members (even at player request).

There was a lesson in this experience, and I thank you all for your input and advice.

The lesson being, communication solves most problems at a D&D table.

[JackPhoenix]

You grant the semblance of life and intelligence to a corpse of your choice within range, allowing it to answer the questions you pose. The corpse must still have a mouth and can’t be undead. The spell fails if the corpse was the target of this spell within the last 10 days.

Until the spell ends, you can ask the corpse up to five questions. The corpse knows only what it knew in life, including the languages it knew. Answers are usually brief, cryptic, or repetitive, and the corpse is under no compulsion to offer a truthful answer if you are hostile to it or it recognizes you as an enemy. This spell doesn’t return the creature’s soul to its body, only its animating spirit. Thus, the corpse can’t learn new information, doesn’t comprehend anything that has happened since it died, and can’t speculate about future events.

There are some options... if the corpse decays enough (or is somehow...damaged), it won't be able to speak. And if you cast the spell without the dragonborn watching, you may get extra 10 days to find out a solution (that depends on how knowledgable the character is about the workings of the spell, though).

It also depends how you killed the halfling...did he saw you? And if the rogue was insane, the brief, cryptic answers combined with the hostility towards you may obscure the truth.

[RickAllison]

Do you have Silence? If so, use Speak with Dead beforehand with that spell and for 10 days, the corpse cannot be spoken to!

[Segev]

I don't quite know how you'd arrange this, but I personally think it would be cool if you could arrange the questions such that the answers do accuse you...as you tearfully confess...and then reveal that you killed him because you saw him murdering all those poor girls and you couldn't think of another way to stop him. The questions should hint that he'd come under the influence of some evil Dragon Cultist and was performing a ritual to empower the Dragon Queen with all those girls' deaths. Honest.

You should be shocked to learn this horrifying truth, and relieved that it may, in fact, have been what the poor Halfling would have wanted you to do, were he in his right mind.

It can all be a lie, of course; the goal though is to make you have born this "horrible burden" for so long because you couldn't figure out how to tell the Paladin, but that you had to finally let it out and accept the consequences. Only now the Paladin and you have learned it was "really" the dragon cult, so more vengeance against them!

[Kane0]

Speak with dead doesnt work well when the subject has a broken jaw, or no jaw at all. You dont need to remove the entire body, just the talky bits.

An eldritch blast should do it, an easily arranged accident.

Then you might be able to convince the pally to finally give his friend the peace and rest he deserves.

Hell, even if it does work just have the rogue player answer. He'll have your back, and reply in a way that you can use to shift the blame or at the very least obscure your involvement.

[Fable Wright]

My suggestion? Bring the Paladin to the room along with a scroll of Modify Memory. Open it up, and tell the Paladin that you can do him one better than a Speak With Dead: You can actually let him talk to the in the afterlife, say goodbye, and get the answers to questions that the halfling's corpse might not know about. Normally, it's used as an offensive spell, since it's quick to cast and leaves the target comatose for a few minutes, and you've only got one scroll. But if you really want to make your peace with the Halfling, here's the best way. Call it the Seance spell if he asks. If he thinks you're trying to kill him, point out that it would be just as bad an idea as if you were killing him in his sleep.

Regardless, when you've convinced him, cast it and make him remember the whole conversation as a Speak With Dead attempt where the dead halfling answered exactly as you wanted him to. Problem solved.

[SharkForce]

alternately, when you level up it could become "necessary" for you to exchange the invocation until "later" (read: never). that could buy you quite a bit of time as well.

edit: actually, depending on where the corpse is kept (if the paladin is carrying it around, presumably he drops it when the fight starts), if it counts as an unattended object, destroying it may be made easy for you should a group of enemies go near it. a simple shatter spell in the right place could work wonders for you... (and arguably more party-friendly if your party has better con save defenses than dex save defenses).

(of course, if it is stored with a bunch of other important gear, that becomes a terrible idea that you shouldn't consider in the slightest).

in any event, over the course of adventuring there are frequently perfectly valid reasons why the corpse *could* become damaged. unless the paladin is examining the corpse each time, he's unlikely to be able to conclusively prove that the corpse was damaged by you while everyone was sleeping rather than when the paladin feel into a pit trap while dragging it around, or when he was hit by a giant, or breathed on by a dragon, or sprayed with acid, etc.

[Jbr208]

More excellent suggestions! I confess, I was not expecting them but they are most welcome. Some things of note:

I attempted to kill him without being identified (active disguise plus an obscuring cloak). It is possible he knows it was me, hence my discomfort.

I certainly like any and all ideas that finish the job that I was counting on the fireplace to handle. I had thrown the body in the fireplace at the time of the murder hoping it would burn sufficiently to ruin this very scenario, apparently it was insufficient.

The séance idea is gold, just might go that route (or a similar one).

The tearful reveal would be an excellent touch, I might be able to pull it off with some help from Warlock Player #2.