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Jormengand
2016-02-14, 12:50 PM
Martial Feats

Martial feats - feats with the [Martial] tag - are always fighter bonus feats, meaning that fighters (and classes such as psychic warriors) can take them as bonus feats. In addition, a monk can take a martial feat instead of one of their bonus feats and a ranger can take martial feats instead of their combat style feats. A martial feat always counts as any feats it emulates or supersedes for prerequisites. For example, the Martial Toughness feat invariably grants at least 3 hit points and may grant a +2 or greater bonus on fortitude saves, so it is treated as both toughness and great fortitude for prerequisites. Nothing, however, stops you taking both.

Martial feats are special because they improve with a character's martial prowess. This is not quite the same as base attack bonus - it would be unfair, after all, to say that a cleric could stand up to a monk in physical combat without magical aid - but instead is more of an abstraction based on how much the class actually uses their physical might compared to their spellcasting or similar abilities. Obviously, due to the massive number of classes available, they cannot all be categorised. Here, however, are the guidelines:


Classes grant zero martial prowess per level if they have made some great sacrifice or effort to gain greater than normal magical power, or gain spells at a vastly accelerated trate. Examples include the Beholder Mage, Incantatrix, Ur Priest and Sublime Chord.
Classes grant one martial prowess per level if they are essentially spellcasters not capable of combat, probably gaining ninth-level spells at some point. Examples include the wizard, the sorcerer and the psion.
Classes grant two martial prowess per level if they are primarily spellcasters, but still enter combat under certain circumstances; they probably have ninth-level spells at some point and medium base attack bonus. Alternatively, a class which isn't designed for combat but will usually default to physical attacks when placed there grants two martial prowess per level. Examples include the cleric, the druid, the factotum and the battle sorcerer.
Classes grant three martial prowess per level if they use magic and martial abilities together for combined effect, or if they are capable magi and warriors both, probably gaining more than fourth but less than ninth spell levels. Examples include the bard, the truenamer, the psychic warrior and the duskblade.
Classes grant four martial prowess per level if they are neither potent magicians nor exemplary warriors, usually fulfilling some other kind of role, but are still combat-capable. Examples include the rogue and the marshal.
Classes grant five martial prowess if they are essentially warriors of a sort, even if they have some limited magical ability. Examples include the fighter, ranger, barbarian, paladin and monk.



Finally, characters must choose whether to use martial feats or martial maneuvers; the two represent fundamentally different methods of fighting which cannot be combined. A character able to initiate martial maneuvers has a martial prowess of zero, unless called upon to take a martial prowess test to resist a martial feat's effect, in which case all martial initiator classes grant four martial prowess per level even though they look as though they should grant five.

In terms of the feats' actual effects, they not only require a certain martial prowess but get stronger the more you have. Sometimes a character needs to take a martial prowess check. For a martial prowess check, 2d20 is rolled rather than 1d20 due to the high values and disparities of martial prowess scores. For example, a third level sorcerer rolls 2d20+3, and a first-level fighter rolls 2d20+5.

Bladestorm [Martial]
You are proficient with both offhand attacks, and repeated attacks with the same weapon.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus 6+, martial prowess of at least 30
Benefit: You get an additional attack in each hand for each 30 points of martial prowess you have, though it is made as though it were an attack made for a high base attack bonus or one of the two-weapon-fighting feats, so it is made at a penalty 5 worse than your worst attack with that hand.

However, for each 25 points of martial prowess, the penalty for making additional attacks (whether from a high base attack bonus, two-weapon fighting or this feat) is reduced by 1. For example, a 20th-level fighter's base attack is now +20/+19/+18/+17.

At martial prowess 40, you can make a full attack at the end of a charge. At martial prowess 80, you can make one as a standard action. At martial prowess 105, you can make a full attack in place of one of your attacks of opportunity.
Special: Whenever you get a new attack from anywhere else, recalculate your attack progression, applying bladestorm last.

Kick in the Door [Martial]
You are far better at breaking through things.
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You can take martial prowess checks instead of strength checks to break objects.

At martial prowess 105, you can break through force effects and other effects that would keep you at bay such as prismatic spheres and antilife shells.

Martial Toughness [Martial]
You are exceptionally hard to kill.
Prerequisites: Martial prowess of at least 3
Benefit: You gain hit points equal to your martial prowess.

At martial prowess 10, you gain the ability to take half of the damage from one creature per 10 martial prowess. They must be within 10 feet for you to protect them. Deciding which creatures to protect is a free action that can be taken on your own turn only.

At martial prowess 20, you get a +1 bonus to fortitude saves per 20 martial prowess you have.

At martial prowess 35 you can't be knocked down unless you allow yourself to be.

At martial prowess 50 you can block 75% of damage your allies would take. You can also take a save for an ally if your own save is better, but they still take whatever non-damage effect is assigned to them and at least a quarter of the damage.

At martial prowess 65 you can't be moved out of your square unwillingly.

At martial prowess 100 you can block all damage and other effects from your allies. However, if you want to block an effect, you must use your own saves, even if they are worse.

At martial prowess 105, you gain fast healing equal to your martial prowess divided by five, minus twenty.

Prowess Devotee [Martial]
You can use your prowess to empower your other abilities.
Prerequisites: Martial prowess 5
Benefit: You can use one-fifth of your martial prowess in place of your base attack bonus if it is higher.

From martial prowess 15 you can take an opposed martial prowess check instead of a bull rush, disarm, feint, grapple, overrun (including trample), sunder or trip check. You get a +1 bonus on this check per 10 martial prowess you have (in addition to the +10 bonus for having 10 martial prowess in the first instance).

From martial prowess 50 you get a free attack whenever you succeed at one of these checks.

From martial prowess 100 you get a free attack whenever you succeed at any kind of martial prowess check.
From martial prowess 105, roll all martial prowess checks twice and take the better result.

Quick Reactions [Martial]
You are fast to act in combat
Prerequisites: Martial prowess of at least 10.
Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on initiative, search, spot and listen checks per 10 martial prowess you have.

At martial prowess 35, you can't be surprised. If there's a surprise round, you can act in it.

At martial prowess 65, you always surprise someone. If there wasn't going to be a surprise round, there now is, and you get to act in it.

At martial prowess 100, you can take a standard action any time you could take an immediate action, though doing so uses up the next round's standard action.

At martial prowess 105, you always go first in the initiative order.

Spinning Frenzy [Martial]
You become a blur of steel, striking out at all your nearby foes.
Prerequisites: Martial prowess 20
Benefit: You can attack every creature in your melee reach as a full-round action.

For each 20 martial prowess you have after 20, you can take a single five-foot step during your spinning frenzy. You attack each creature in your reach at any point during your movement, but only once per creature.

At martial prowess 50, you instead attack each creature in your reach once for each time they appear in your reach.

At martial prowess 100 you can make a spinning frenzy at the end of a charge (but you get no five-foot steps). At martial prowess 105, you can make a spinning frenzy that lasts for the entirety of your charge (but you still get no five-foot steps).

Warrior's Dodge [Martial]
You are hard to hit.
Prerequisites: Martial prowess 10
Benefit: You get a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each 10 martial prowess you have. You are considered to have all creatures as your dodge target for purposes of other abilities which affect dodge targets or your interaction with them, though you can exclude certain creatures - or re-include them - at will as a free action.

For every 20 martial prowess you have, you get a +1 bonus on reflex saves.

At martial prowess 35 you get evasion. If you already have (or later gain) evasion, you get improved evasion instead. If you already have (or later gain) improved evasion as well, you only take a quarter of the normal damage on a failed save.

At martial prowess 50 you have concealment from enemies.

At martial prowess 65 you don't provoke attacks of opportunity for movement.

At martial prowess 75 you have total concealment from enemies.

At martial prowess 100, you can move up to your speed as an immediate action.

At martial prowess 105 you're invisible to your enemies. You don't provoke attacks of opportunity for doing anything.




These are just a few examples. Feel free to make your own. Look, there's even a handy template!

[Martial]

Prerequisites:
Benefit:
Special:

johnbragg
2016-02-14, 02:07 PM
Before I start, this might work great at your table. But for anyone else, the Martial Prowess progression points are complicated.

What if you limited it to full-BAB classes? Just count up your levels in full BAB classes. (If you really think a class needs Really Good Fighter feats, make them a Full BAB class. If giving them full BAB seems too much, maybe they don't need [Martial] feats.)

I'll reply to your whole post in a minue, editing based on this idea. Might be an improvement, it might RUIN EVERYTHING! Let's see.

Jormengand
2016-02-14, 02:46 PM
Before I start, this might work great at your table. But for anyone else, the Martial Prowess progression points are complicated.

What if you limited it to full-BAB classes? Just count up your levels in full BAB classes. (If you really think a class needs Really Good Fighter feats, make them a Full BAB class. If giving them full BAB seems too much, maybe they don't need [Martial] feats.)

I'll reply to your whole post in a minue, editing based on this idea. Might be an improvement, it might RUIN EVERYTHING! Let's see.

The thing is, I want gishes - including the psychic warrior, who actually gets FBFs - to get in on a little of the action too. Also the idea that truenamers should be better at resisting grapples than clerics who are better than wizards, but rogues are even better than all of them makes intrinsic sense to me. Anyway, unless you're multiclassing horribly, it shouldn't be too hard to add up a bunch of threes, a bunch of fives, etcetera.

johnbragg
2016-02-14, 02:54 PM
My text will be in fire brick.

Finally, characters must choose whether to use martial feats or martial maneuvers; the two represent fundamentally different methods of fighting which cannot be combined. Keep this part.

In terms of the feats' actual effects, they not only require a certain martial prowess but get stronger the more you have. Sometimes a character needs to take a martial prowess check. For a martial prowess check, 2d20 is rolled rather than 1d20 due to the high values and disparities of martial prowess scores. For example, a third level sorcerer rolls 2d20+3, and a first-level fighter rolls 2d20+5. I have to figure this part out.

Bladestorm [Martial]
You are proficient with both offhand attacks, and repeated attacks with the same weapon.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus 6+, martial prowess of at least 30 6 levels in Full BAB classes.
Benefit: You get an additional attack in each hand for each 6 levels in Full BAB classes. 30 points of martial prowess you have, though it is made as though it were an attack made for a high base attack bonus or one of the two-weapon-fighting feats, so it is made at a penalty 5 worse than your worst attack with that hand.

However, for each 25 points of martial prowess 5 levels in Full BAB classes. , the penalty for making additional attacks (whether from a high base attack bonus, two-weapon fighting or this feat) is reduced by 1. For example, a 20th-level fighter's base attack is now +20/+19/+18/+17.

At 8 levels in full BAB classes, you can make a full attack at the end of a charge. At 16 levels in full BAB classes, you can make one as a standard action. At 21 levels in full BAB classes, you can make a full attack in place of one of your attacks of opportunity.
Special: Whenever you get a new attack from anywhere else, recalculate your attack progression, applying bladestorm last.

Kick in the Door [Martial]
You are far better at breaking through things.
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You can take martial prowess checks instead of strength checks to break objects. I'l...come back to this one. Maybe add Levels in Full BAB classes to STR check?

At martial prowess 105 21 levels in Full BAB classes, you can break through force effects and other effects that would keep you at bay such as prismatic spheres and antilife shells.

Martial Toughness [Martial]
You are exceptionally hard to kill.
Prerequisites: Martial prowess of at least 3
Benefit: You gain hit points equal to your martial prowess. Whoa. That's a TON of hit points.

At martial prowess 10, you gain the ability to take half of the damage from one creature per 10 martial prowess. They must be within 10 feet for you to protect them. Deciding which creatures to protect is a free action that can be taken on your own turn only. Umm, is this the same feat? This is a beast on its own. Tanking...To the EXTREME!

At martial prowess 20 4 levels in Full BAB classes, you get a +1 bonus to fortitude saves per 20 martial prowess 4 levels in Full BAB classes you have.

At martial prowess 35 7 levels in Full BAB classes you can't be knocked down unless you allow yourself to be.

At martial prowess 50 10 levels in Full BAB classes you can block 75% of damage your allies would take. Wait, block or take?
You can also take a save for an ally if your own save is better, but they still take whatever non-damage effect is assigned to them and at least a quarter of the damage.

At martial prowess 65 you can't be moved out of your square unwillingly.

At martial prowess 100 you can block all damage and other effects from your allies. However, if you want to block an effect, you must use your own saves, even if they are worse.

At martial prowess 105, you gain fast healing equal to your martial prowess divided by five, minus twenty.

Bonus HP. Tanking. No knockdown, stand-your-ground. Fast healing at epic levels. This feat has a bunch of different things going on. Too much at once for me to figure out, actually.

Jormengand
2016-02-14, 03:00 PM
Given that I've already decided I don't want to make psychic warriors useless in combat, your entire post is basically meaningless. Plus, you know, I can divide by five too. I did do A-level maths.

johnbragg
2016-02-14, 03:26 PM
Given that I've already decided I don't want to make psychic warriors useless in combat, your entire post is basically meaningless. Plus, you know, I can divide by five too. I did do A-level maths.

WEll, I wanted to translate it into terms I'm familiar with to see how it actually works. I have a "feel" for how class levels and BAB work. I don't have a feel for how martial prowess points work, or are supposed to work. (I'm not sure if the 2d20 + MArtial Prowess points is supposed to guarantee success--I think it is, after very low levels. BUt it's a different mechanic, and I don't know if you've thought about the bugs in it.) I got through one feat, that had 3 different not-directly-related effects. There's too much going on for me to make a judgement on, this looks like a good idea or not.

EDIT: Oh, and if the PsyWar really should have MArtial feats, why not just give them full BAB?

Cosi
2016-02-14, 03:42 PM
I'm with John on this. It's just Combat Feats (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Warriors_with_Style#The_Failure_of_Feats) but with a bunch of multiplication and pointless addition which has no particular rhyme or reason to it (apparently the Cleric, who uses magic to buff himself for combat, is less of a warrior than the Psychic Warrior, who uses magic to buff himself for combat).


The thing is, I want gishes - including the psychic warrior, who actually gets FBFs - to get in on a little of the action too. Also the idea that truenamers should be better at resisting grapples than clerics who are better than wizards, but rogues are even better than all of them makes intrinsic sense to me.

How, aside from your personal love for Truenamers, are they any more "martial" than Clerics? FFS, there's literally a Cleric build called the "Cleric Archer". It is not called that because it casts BFC spells. And on the other side, Truenamer is 100% a Wizard riff. What powers does it have that are suited to any form of combat other than "hit people with spells"?


Anyway, unless you're multiclassing horribly, it shouldn't be too hard to add up a bunch of threes, a bunch of fives, etcetera.

But you know what's even easier than that? Using your BAB, which is a number you have written on your character sheet already. Good design does not add complexity for no reason.

Jormengand
2016-02-14, 04:22 PM
EDIT: Oh, and if the PsyWar really should have MArtial feats, why not just give them full BAB?

Because they're a gish. They're not a full melee character. Granted, they go into combat a lot more than clerics (Why, yes, that is the only part of the needlessly hostile comment below yours I'm going to respond to) because their options outside of combat are limited, but they should have a limited access to martial feats. They should, however, have a greater access than clerics, and a lower access than fighters. Martial prowess is not at all difficult to calculate. Like, as a general rule, when something is easier to calculate than your hit points, it doesn't make the game meaningfully harder to play. And it makes a distinction between "Transformation sucks, why is it on my spell list?" "Well I would probably be better off just using flame strike, but I could also buff myself and hit things," "Let's throw a load of swift-action buffs on myself and go and hit things (and occasionally shoot people through walls)," "I don't want to be in combat, but now that I am, SNEAK ATTACK!", and "I fight people for a living." You'll notice that the rogue gets twice as many as the cleric, and they both deserve their mid bab (though admittedly the cleric less so).

Also, you don't get weird stuff with transformation'ing/divine power'ing characters suddenly having to recalculate the effects of their feats on the fly, but that's incidental.

Cosi
2016-02-14, 04:33 PM
Like, as a general rule, when something is easier to calculate than your hit points, it doesn't make the game meaningfully harder to play.

But again, you already track BAB. What advantage does this have, besides allowing you to reassure yourself that your hierarchy of martial-ness is much more correct than the one the game came pre-packaged with?


And it makes a distinction between "Transformation sucks, why is it on my spell list?" "Well I would probably be better off just using flame strike, but I could also buff myself and hit things," "Let's throw a load of swift-action buffs on myself and go and hit things (and occasionally shoot people through walls)," "I don't want to be in combat, but now that I am, SNEAK ATTACK!", and "I fight people for a living."

How is not wanting to be in combat (Rogue, apparently) more martial than having a laundry list of buffs you use specifically to be better at combat (Psychic Warrior, Cleric). Your system is supposed to have people believe that the Duskblade is less of a warrior than the Factotum. How does that make any sense at all?

Jormengand
2016-02-14, 04:50 PM
But again, you already track BAB. What advantage does this have, besides allowing you to reassure yourself that your hierarchy of martial-ness is much more correct than the one the game came pre-packaged with?

The advantage is that it actually makes people have more of an order than "Oh, you're mid-bab, so you must be just as much of a martial character as any other mid-bab character". Because clearly, a rogue is going to spend his actions sitting back and casting flame strike.

If you don't have anything constructive to add, then I'm not interested in what you have to say. Yes, the factotum is in the wrong place, I'll go and move him. That's constructive. "Go and get rid of your entire premise" isn't.

Cosi
2016-02-14, 04:56 PM
The advantage is that it actually makes people have more of an order than "Oh, you're mid-bab, so you must be just as much of a martial character as any other mid-bab character". Because clearly, a rogue is going to spend his actions sitting back and casting flame strike.

Maybe people should asses how martial a character is based on what martial options they take. If a Cleric fights just as effectively as Fighter, he is just as martial. His ability to have come in with a completely different set of abilities is just as relevant to how martial he is as the Fighter's ability to do the same thing (by playing a Sorcerer instead).


If you don't have anything constructive to add, then I'm not interested in what you have to say. Yes, the factotum is in the wrong place, I'll go and move him. That's constructive. "Go and get rid of your entire premise" isn't.

Your premise is that classes should benefit from feats based on martial prowess. Someone wrote that up the better part of a decade ago. Insisting that people use your rankings to complicate things to no benefit is not progress.

Jormengand
2016-02-14, 05:06 PM
Your premise is that classes should benefit from feats based on martial prowess. Someone wrote that up the better part of a decade ago. Insisting that people use your rankings to complicate things to no benefit is not progress.

I'm aware of the tome feats, and I'm also aware that they don't work the way that I'd like them to. If you're happy with them, go use them and quit bothering me.

Cosi
2016-02-14, 05:09 PM
I'm aware of the tome feats, and I'm also aware that they don't work the way that I'd like them to. If you're happy with them, go use them and quit bothering me.

What compliant could you possibly have? That there isn't enough multiplication? Your feats work (again, except the multiplication and the prerequisites) exactly the same.

Jormengand
2016-02-14, 05:14 PM
What compliant could you possibly have? That there isn't enough multiplication? Your feats work (again, except the multiplication and the prerequisites) exactly the same.

Right, except that they don't, and you and I both know why they don't. The calculation is not actually to do with your base attack bonus at all, hence why monks are in the five category and clerics in the two category. There's a reason for that, you know that reason, please stop pretending you don't. If you don't have anything constructive to say, what are you here for? To annoy me? Well you're doing a bloody good job of it, now stop it.

UrsusArctos
2016-02-14, 05:30 PM
So what category would you put the Warlock in? From a fluff sense, selling your soul to a fiend is a great sacrifice for your power, but it is not close in power to the other classes that get zero prowess per level.

Cosi
2016-02-14, 05:32 PM
Right, except that they don't, and you and I both know why they don't. The calculation is not actually to do with your base attack bonus at all, hence why monks are in the five category and clerics in the two category. There's a reason for that, you know that reason, please stop pretending you don't. If you don't have anything constructive to say, what are you here for? To annoy me? Well you're doing a bloody good job of it, now stop it.

Fine, adding together (functionally) random numbers from a chart that does not have consistent logic (i.e. Cleric v. Psychic Warrior, apparently Cleric is less martial because he has other class features). It's not really "multiplication" strictly speaking, but it is using numbers that are five times larger for no real reason. It's not like you're using the granularity. Everything is still a multiple of five.

And the Monk should be all rights have full BAB, so "but the Monk is on list A" is a bad argument.

Also, this implementation screws over compatibility. There aren't any hard rules, so it's impossible to tell where hypothetical Beastmaster or Totem Caller classes might fall.

I seriously can't see any benefit to doing this over BAB. FFS, apparently banning Evocation and Enchantment to become a Necromancer gives you one Martial Prowess/level, but banning only Evocation to become an Incantatrix gives you zero MP/level. There's no rhyme or reason to it, not even giving better classes less and worse classes more.

Jormengand
2016-02-14, 05:39 PM
So what category would you put the Warlock in? From a fluff sense, selling your soul to a fiend is a great sacrifice for your power, but it is not close in power to the other classes that get zero prowess per level.

It's in the 1 category; I've changed it to "Greater than normal magic power" to clarify this.


-Snip-

Please accept that this line of argument is not at all helpful, and rather than trying to deal with your increasingly spurious and, honestly, incorrect criticisms, I'm simply going to concentrate my focus on those who are genuinely interested.

JNAProductions
2016-02-14, 06:02 PM
Jor-you're a reasonable person. And as a reasonable person, you should be able to see that these complaints are not baseless. The Martial Prowess bit is really kinda arbitrary and based entirely on your views-as evidenced with the Truenamer placement. Tying it to BAB or levels in full-BAB classes makes a lot more sense and is simpler. Complexity for complexity's sake is not good.

Jormengand
2016-02-14, 06:17 PM
Jor-you're a reasonable person. And as a reasonable person, you should be able to see that these complaints are not baseless. The Martial Prowess bit is really kinda arbitrary and based entirely on your views-as evidenced with the Truenamer placement. Tying it to BAB or levels in full-BAB classes makes a lot more sense and is simpler. Complexity for complexity's sake is not good.

The thing with truenamers is that - ignoring the fact that they need all the help they can get - their standard battle plan is usually to throw buffs on themselves or debuffs on something else and go shoot people through a wall. I don't know why Cosi thinks they're basically wizards; maybe he hasn't read like, most of the LEM utterances. The thing with clerics and rogues, or clerics and monks, or clerics and psychic warriors is that they don't have the same level of martial-ness. In fact, a medium base attack bonus tells you almost nothing about how good someone is in combat or how much of it they do. What I don't want is battle sorcerer/abjurant champion/eldritch knights claiming good martial feat bonuses and getting a shedload of spells, despite having made very little effort (Oh no, I took a couple of prestige classes that lost me... two spells per day!) actually to be good at fighting.

Cosi
2016-02-14, 06:37 PM
ignoring the fact that they need all the help they can get

You can't just ignore that. If this is intended to be an effort to balance the game without changing classes, that's fine. In that case it would be totally legitimate to say that Clerics or Wizards or Beguilers got zero points of Martial Prowess and Truenamers or Factotums or Fighters got five points of Martial Prowess, and write feats that gave you level appropriate abilities. But if this is intended to be used in an otherwise balanced system, that's totally illegitimate.


The thing with truenamers is that their standard battle plan is usually to throw buffs on themselves or debuffs on something else and go shoot people through a wall.

So you hear:

-Average BAB
-Magical Abilities
-Fights by using a buff routine and a weapon

And think Truenamer, but not Cleric, Arcane Gish, or Psychic Warrior?


What I don't want is battle sorcerer/abjurant champion/eldritch knights claiming good martial feat bonuses and getting a shedload of spells, despite having made very little effort (Oh no, I took a couple of prestige classes that lost me... two spells per day!) actually to be good at fighting.

Why? If that build is otherwise balanced with the Fighter taking these feats, why should you penalize them for fighting with sword + buffs instead of sword + more sword? If you are not assuming that these are being used as part of a balanced game, you should be much more explicit about that.

VoodooPaladin
2016-02-14, 06:39 PM
Jor-you're a reasonable person. And as a reasonable person, you should be able to see that these complaints are not baseless. The Martial Prowess bit is really kinda arbitrary and based entirely on your views-as evidenced with the Truenamer placement. Tying it to BAB or levels in full-BAB classes makes a lot more sense and is simpler. Complexity for complexity's sake is not good.

$.02: those are just as arbitrary as martial prowess and don't actually make any more sense. The latter option also depends on multi-classing to give gish characters real benefits for being half-martial, which automatically stunts their access to magic and damages the legitimacy of the archetype.

Jormengand
2016-02-14, 06:44 PM
So you hear:

-Average BAB
-Magical Abilities
-Fights by using a buff routine and a weapon

And think [...] not [...] Arcane Gish, or Psychic Warrior?

Okay, okay, I officially give up on reasoning with you, given that the three category LITERALLY CONTAINS DUSKBLADE AND PSYCHIC WARRIOR.

And there's a reason why the two category exists between the three and the one:


Classes grant two martial prowess per level if they are primarily spellcasters, but still enter combat under certain circumstances; they probably have ninth-level spells at some point and medium base attack bonus.

I was going to bold the bits relevant to cleric, then realised that was the entire thing.

EDIT: I've said this enough, but once more for those at the back:

THIS IS A THREAD FOR MARTIAL FEATS, NOT ARGUING ABOUT WHETHER IT WOULD BE BETTER TO DO SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. IF YOU CONTINUE THIS LINE OF DISCUSSION, IT IS NOT ON-TOPIC. THE TOPIC IS DEVELOPING THE IDEA, NOT DESTROYING IT.

If you want to say that class X should be in category Y, that's certainly a line of conversation we can follow, but trying to change my stance on what is essentially one of the best examples of a category-3 class isn't going to get you anywhere.

Cosi
2016-02-14, 06:50 PM
Okay, okay, I officially give up on reasoning with you, given that the three category LITERALLY CONTAINS DUSKBLADE AND PSYCHIC WARRIOR.

But not the Battle Sorcerer. Or the Gish build you posted in the previous post. And honestly, Duskblade isn't really a Gish. Gishes are about buffing more than casting combat spells.

But yes, my bad on Psychic Warrior.


I was going to bold the bits relevant to cleric, then realised that was the entire thing.

So how is the Cleric different from the Truenamer, except that it has more options? Why are you penalizing melee Clerics for having the option to be blaster Clerics?

Jormengand
2016-02-14, 06:59 PM
So how is the Cleric different from the Truenamer, except that it has more options? Why are you penalizing melee Clerics for having the option to be blaster Clerics?

I could make it that battle clerics (ones with the war domain, maybe?) get moved to 3, but my reasoning is that if you're busy learning how to drop flame strikes on things, heal people, and so forth, you don't get the same kind of training that someone who pretty much exclusively learns abilities which are at least partially useful at physical combat (for example, while reversed energy negation is a fun damage dealing spell, the normal version is handy if you want to get close and personal with a fire elemental) learns. For example, grabbing a random truenamer sheet gives me a list containing 5 utterances usable in combat, and one utterance that is Universal Aptitude (which I guess is nice for, uhm, ride checks?)

Another thing that concerns me though is that clerics are spontaneous, so a battle cleric can start being a blaster cleric with a day's notice.

Cosi
2016-02-14, 07:02 PM
I could make it that battle clerics (ones with the war domain, maybe?) get moved to 3, but my reasoning is that if you're busy learning how to drop flame strikes on things, heal people, and so forth, you don't get the same kind of training that someone who pretty much exclusively learns abilities which are at least partially useful at physical combat (for example, while reversed energy negation is a fun damage dealing spell, the normal version is handy if you want to get close and personal with a fire elemental) learns. For example, grabbing a random truenamer sheet gives me a list containing 5 utterances usable in combat, and one utterance that is Universal Aptitude (which I guess is nice for, uhm, ride checks?)

The Cleric learns more buffs than the Truenamer does. If the Truenamer is any particular level of Martial, the Cleric is at least that Martial.


Another thing that concerns me though is that clerics are spontaneous, so a battle cleric can start being a blaster cleric with a day's notice.

That's just screwing people over for having options. If the Cleric is spending permanent feat slots on hitting things with sticks, it is reasonable to assume he plans to hit people with sticks.

Cosi
2016-02-14, 09:31 PM
In the interest of continuing this thread, I have completed what I consider to be a reasonably fair assessment of these feats.


Finally, characters must choose whether to use martial feats or martial maneuvers; the two represent fundamentally different methods of fighting which cannot be combined. A character able to initiate martial maneuvers has a martial prowess of zero, unless called upon to take a martial prowess test to resist a martial feat's effect, in which case all martial initiator classes grant four martial prowess per level even though they look as though they should grant five.

There is zero chance Martial Prowess + Maneuvers is worse for the game than Martial Prowess + Spells. If the Wizard and the Cleric can use these feats, the Warblade and the Swordsage should get to as well.


Benefit: You get an additional attack in each hand for each 30 points of martial prowess you have, though it is made as though it were an attack made for a high base attack bonus or one of the two-weapon-fighting feats, so it is made at a penalty 5 worse than your worst attack with that hand.

The problem with martial characters is not particularly a lack of attacks. Also, it's not super clear how this works with a two-handed weapon. I assume the intent is one extra attack per 30, but it arguably gives zero (you are not attacking with one hand, you are attacking with both) or two.


However, for each 25 points of martial prowess, the penalty for making additional attacks (whether from a high base attack bonus, two-weapon fighting or this feat) is reduced by 1. For example, a 20th-level fighter's base attack is now +20/+19/+18/+17.

You know what sounds terrible? Calculating my MP, dividing that number by 25, then subtracting it from things that are penalties for "additional attacks". I also don't think this applies to anything by strict RAW. You don't "take a penalty" for extra iteratives, you "have a smaller bonus". And the TWFing bonuses are from TWF, not extra attacks. Just make it eliminate TWF penalties and reduce the iterative penalty to a maximum of -5.


At martial prowess 40, you can make a full attack at the end of a charge.

This should say pounce.


At martial prowess 105, you can break through force effects and other effects that would keep you at bay such as prismatic spheres and antilife shells.

How does that work? The context implies it should be a check, but there are no DCs. Also, there's no mention of what happens to the effect. If you break through an antilife shell, can anyone follow you? If you break through a prismatic sphere do you get hit by the colors?


At martial prowess 10, you gain the ability to take half of the damage from one creature per 10 martial prowess. They must be within 10 feet for you to protect them. Deciding which creatures to protect is a free action that can be taken on your own turn only.

Free actions default to your turn only. Also, this is poorly worded. At first glance it looks like you're reducing damage (i.e. creatures that attack you deal half damage). Use language like shield other instead.


At martial prowess 20, you get a +1 bonus to fortitude saves per 20 martial prowess you have.

Yay! More adding and dividing numbers!


At martial prowess 65 you can't be moved out of your square unwillingly.

Is this supposed to make you immune to plane shift?


At martial prowess 105, you gain fast healing equal to your martial prowess divided by five, minus twenty.

Fast Healing 1 is not an ability you care about at 21st level. It wouldn't be an ability you care about at 21st level even if people didn't get Epic Spellcasting then.


You can use one-fifth of your martial prowess in place of your base attack bonus if it is higher.

Is there a reason you couldn't just give Monks full BAB?


From martial prowess 15 you can take an opposed martial prowess check instead of a bull rush, disarm, feint, grapple, overrun (including trample), sunder or trip check. You get a +1 bonus on this check per 10 martial prowess you have (in addition to the +10 bonus for having 10 martial prowess in the first instance).

This requires explicit MP numbers for every monster which exists (this is the strongest argument for BAB over MP). Also, if you do it by HD this presumably makes it harder to trip most melee monsters. Also, the 110% bonus is stupid, just let them add Strength or something.


From martial prowess 100 you get a free attack whenever you succeed at any kind of martial prowess check.

I strongly suspect this eventually leads to bag of rats type shenanigans.


You get a +1 bonus on initiative, search, spot and listen checks per 10 martial prowess you have.

Everybody loves adding up numbers from a chart, dividing them by a random value, then adding it to an arbitrary character statistic! Wait. No one loves that. Because it is terrible.


At martial prowess 35, you can't be surprised. If there's a surprise round, you can act in it.

Is there a reason this messes with surprise rounds instead of giving Uncanny Dodge (the typical representation of inability to be surprised). Also, surprise rounds aren't very good for martial characters, as they really want Move + Standard or Full, not just Standard.


At martial prowess 105, you always go first in the initiative order.

Needs text resolving two characters with this ability.


You can attack every creature in your melee reach as a full-round action.

For logistical reasons, this should use Tome "resolve a single attack" language. I do not want to track between four and twenty separate attacks.


For each 20 martial prowess you have after 20, you can take a single five-foot step during your spinning frenzy. You attack each creature in your reach at any point during your movement, but only once per creature.

Yay, more division! Except now you subtract first. Also, is there a reason this doesn't just grant extra 5ft steps?


You get a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each 10 martial prowess you have. You are considered to have all creatures as your dodge target for purposes of other abilities which affect dodge targets or your interaction with them, though you can exclude certain creatures - or re-include them - at will as a free action.

Why are you trying to break that stupid trick from Tome of Magic? Also, this technically makes that trick worse as you can no longer switch off targets during opponent's turns.

Eno Remnant
2016-02-15, 12:29 AM
I've only skimmed these, but from what I've seen, I like them. They're very much in line with your other work to improve mundane classes, and are of equal quality. I could definitely see myself using them, in the instances when I'm not using a martial initiator.

Nice work, Jorm. You don't get half as much credit as you deserve for keeping melee characters viable in high-power games, while not shafting casters. Plus the much-needed love you give Truenamers :smalltongue: