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View Full Version : Mithral BP = About a year to craft?!

Forks
2007-06-17, 01:43 PM
I was checking out perhaps trying to craft some mithral armor for my buddies in the group because we'd just made friends with a little dwarven mining operation. Then I did the calculations with my craft skill for mithral breastplate and found that it would take about 60 weeks to complete - MORE than a YEAR.

Am I doing something wrong here?

RMS Oceanic
2007-06-17, 01:53 PM
It's kinda hard to comment without your total Craft skill modifier. We could work it out if you tell us.

InaVegt
2007-06-17, 01:55 PM
Depends on your craft modifier.

Assuming +5 craft and always taking 10 you get 22.5 gp of breastplate per week, that's 4200 / 22.5 = 186 + 2/3 weeks of work, every additional point of bonus increases the amount created per week by 1.5 gp. 60 weeks would require an insane bonus to your craft skill (well in the thirties).

Forks
2007-06-17, 01:59 PM
This pretty much answered my question. Thanks.

Even when if I bump my craft mod up to +20 and up the DC to 30, it would still take 48 weeks to complete. I was just trying to make sure that the craft mechanic works the same for special materials. Looks like we'll just have to go shopping.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-17, 02:02 PM
Yes, probably.

Crafting score (the score needed to complete the item) is price in gp * 10. So, breastplate (mithral) is 200 (breastplate) + 4000 (mithral) * 10, or 420,000. The DC is 10 + AC, or 15.

If you pass the check (at DC 15, not hard), you multiply your check result by the DC. Say you have four ranks and an Int mod of +3, and you roll a natural 20. Your check result is 27 (a pass), so you multiply 27 by 15.

27*15=405

42,000/405 = 103.7 weeks

Now, if you have ten ranks, an Int mod of +5, and a +2 circumstance from having a smithy and take 20, you have a score of 37.

37*15=555
42,000/555= 75.6 weeks

Forks
2007-06-17, 02:15 PM
The DC is base 20 because mithral armor is always masterwork. EDIT: Just looked at craft skill again, I have no idea where I got this number from.

Also, would taking 20 speed things up? I assumed that only taking 10 would be viable with craft, since taking 20 takes 20 times longer and includes mistakes and all that jazz.

Dont forget also that you can voluntarily raise the DC by 10. So if you can make the higher check, progress goes faster.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-17, 02:20 PM
No, the base DC is 15. The masterwork component DC is 20.

Creating Masterwork Items

You can make a masterwork item—a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship, not through being magical. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. Note: The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.

Tyger
2007-06-17, 02:53 PM
Thank the gods for the Fabricate spell!

goat
2007-06-17, 03:11 PM
Well, if we assume you're a well established smith with a prosperous history... Which you would be if you're making mithral armour. It sells for thousands of gold, and from the thread about untrained labourers, 1GP a day would be more than enough to live on.

You own a +20 armour-making forge from Races of Stone, it cost you a lot (About 10k I think), but it speeds everything up so much that it was worth it and you can pass it on to your children. You also own a +10 ring of craft(armour), another 10k that can be passed on as an heirloom.

You have an apprentice and masterwork tools for +4.

You are level 5, with 8 ranks in craft(armour) and an intelligence bonus of +3.

You've got skill focus (craft) for another +3

You are a Dwarf, +2.

That gives you a +50 modifier. Take 10 for a "roll" of 60.

Now, if we bump the crafting DC check up to 55, you're making 3300 sp progress a week. You can make that armour in under 13 weeks.

So, you can reliably make anything with a voluntarily imposed DC check of 51-60

306-360 GP's worth of stuff a week. That's 15,300-18,000 GP a year, assuming you have 2 weeks off. In other words, you can pay off your forge and ring in a few years without any trouble. But it'll still take you most of a year to make a full suit of Adamantine plate.

drudo
2007-06-17, 03:33 PM
Well, if we assume you're a well established smith with a prosperous history... Which you would be if you're making mithral armour. It sells for thousands of gold, and from the thread about untrained labourers, 1GP a day would be more than enough to live on.

You own a +20 armour-making forge from Races of Stone, it cost you a lot (About 10k I think), but it speeds everything up so much that it was worth it and you can pass it on to your children. You also own a +10 ring of craft(armour), another 10k that can be passed on as an heirloom.

You have an apprentice and masterwork tools for +4.

You are level 5, with 8 ranks in craft(armour) and an intelligence bonus of +3.

You've got skill focus (craft) for another +3

You are a Dwarf, +2.

That gives you a +50 modifier. Take 10 for a "roll" of 60.

Now, if we bump the crafting DC check up to 55, you're making 3300 sp progress a week. You can make that armour in under 13 weeks.

So, you can reliably make anything with a voluntarily imposed DC check of 51-60

306-360 GP's worth of stuff a week. That's 15,300-18,000 GP a year, assuming you have 2 weeks off. In other words, you can pay off your forge and ring in a few years without any trouble. But it'll still take you most of a year to make a full suit of Adamantine plate.

Ok, now just tell me where a non adventurer gets 20 thousand gold.
A farmer earns about 10 GP a week, thats 40 a month, 480 a year
Even if a noble gets ten or twenty times that amount he would still need year to gather 20k because he has to pay for other things too

A magical blacksmith worth 10k would be in possession of a church of some god and one of the greatest relics of that church
No way that a normal blacksmith would get to work in such a smith

Neon Knight
2007-06-17, 03:39 PM
If this is how long it takes to forge stuff, dwarves must have too much time on their hands...

Fax Celestis
2007-06-17, 03:40 PM
Ok, now just tell me where a non adventurer gets 20 thousand gold.
A farmer earns about 10 GP a week, thats 40 a month, 480 a year
Even if a noble gets ten or twenty times that amount he would still need year to gather 20k because he has to pay for other things too

A magical blacksmith worth 10k would be in possession of a church of some god and one of the greatest relics of that church
No way that a normal blacksmith would get to work in such a smith

It's called a "loan."

ocato
2007-06-17, 03:45 PM
What farmer or minor noble has adamantine armor?

Neon Knight
2007-06-17, 03:47 PM
It's called a "loan."

Dispensed by the loan shark, a distant and feared relative of the land shark (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bulette.htm).

Arbitrarity
2007-06-17, 03:51 PM
Simple.

Fabricate

InaVegt
2007-06-17, 03:55 PM
And the fact crafting takes such a long time, or requires heavy investment in your business is why they triple the cost of materials for what they craft.

Tola
2007-06-17, 03:56 PM
...So what's being said here is that the 'Craft' skills are basically useless, because barring extremely unlikely circumstances, the time is just too long to make anything worthwhile?

....WONDERFUL.

sleeping fishy
2007-06-17, 04:02 PM
what i do is i say that craft is just to make the -item-, mithril is extra -material cost-... it just costs more, doesnt take any longer than crafting a NORMAL breastplate... just gotta use mithril instead of normal steel and stuff, which costs more...

Fax Celestis
2007-06-17, 04:04 PM
...So what's being said here is that the 'Craft' skills are basically useless, because barring extremely unlikely circumstances, the time is just too long to make anything worthwhile?

....WONDERFUL.

Yeah, pretty much.

InaVegt
2007-06-17, 04:05 PM
...So what's being said here is that the 'Craft' skills are basically useless, because barring extremely unlikely circumstances, the time is just too long to make anything worthwhile?

....WONDERFUL.

One wonderful word: Fabricate

Beside that, there are several cheaper things which can be made in a much shorter time, it takes 2 days to create a suit of padded leather when you have just a minor +6 bonus (which can be achieved easily at 1st level).

@sleeping fishy: maybe, because mithral is such a superior material it's also much more time consuming to work with.

TheElfLord
2007-06-17, 04:14 PM
If this is how long it takes to forge stuff, dwarves must have too much time on their hands...

Well they do live for hundreds of years. If a human lives to be about 70, and a dwarf to 350, then the amount of time it take a dwarf to make that breast plate is about 80% less of their life than it would be for a human.

...So what's being said here is that the 'Craft' skills are basically useless, because barring extremely unlikely circumstances, the time is just too long to make anything worthwhile?

....WONDERFUL.

Depends how you define worthwhile. I mean if mithral is suposed to be a rare and expensive material to work with it would take a long time. Items made out of less exotic materials are much more reasonable. On the other hand, if you meant worthless as a way for a PC to make money, than in general yes, considering that there are many quicker ways for an adventurer to get some cash.

Tola
2007-06-17, 04:19 PM
Mmmmh...

2 days for Padded.

How about other main armours? Include Masterwork in this, please.

You must understand that this is a character matter: I've put points into Craft Weaponsmith and Armoursmith, to represent the skill to repair, maintain, and if necessary, make his own equipment, top of his potential 'list' being Masterworks than can be used by others, or sold, or handed off to be enchanted later('Magic items needing to be masterwork' is the logic.) It's going to look damm silly if a warrior who says he can make/repair his equip, apparently can't.

InaVegt
2007-06-17, 04:34 PM
Mmmmh...

2 days for Padded.

How about other main armours? Include Masterwork in this, please.

You must understand that this is a character matter: I've put points into Craft Weaponsmith and Armoursmith, to represent the skill to repair, maintain, and if necessary, make his own equipment, top of his potential 'list' being Masterworks than can be used by others, or sold, or handed off to be enchanted later('Magic items needing to be masterwork' is the logic.) It's going to look damm silly if a warrior who says he can make/repair his equip, apparently can't.

I'm going to assume a 5th level character with +2 int mod now (for a total mod of +10)

A standard full plate takes 41 + 2/3 weeks

A standard breastplate takes 6 + 2/3 weeks

A standard chainmail takes 25 days

A standard heavy steel shield takes 6 days

A standard small wooden shield takes 1 day

Creating a masterwork armor or shield adds 3¼ week to the total.

Weapons are slightly more difficult to extrapolate as they don't have easy formulas.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-17, 05:32 PM
Ok, now just tell me where a non adventurer gets 20 thousand gold.

Venture capitalists.

Also, would a bunch of apprentices all using aid another factor into this equation?

For the machine shop in your pocket:
Get some Dedicated Wrights (homonculus constructs) that can build items (magical ones too) using your craft check, as long as you spend an hour with them casting the appropriate spells, metamagic feats, and givng them the raw materials.

Stuff them and the raw materials in a portable hole.

Put the portable hole in your pocket.

???

Profit.

sleeping fishy
2007-06-17, 05:35 PM
or FROM adventurers... lol.

or maybe by being a retired adventuer??

Forks
2007-06-17, 06:22 PM
Makes you wonder why there arent more wizard craftsmen cranking out equipment and selling it cheaper than all those hard working dwarves.

goat
2007-06-17, 06:24 PM
Ok, a level 1, human, commoner Blacksmith. 4 ranks in Craft(whatever), skill focus. He's 18, starting out in a simple forge left to him by an uncle.

Assuming a decent intelligence, but nothing really special, give them a +1.

Give them an apprentice/assistant for another +2, assuming they're competant.

That's +10, giving an easy 20 when taking 10.

So, that's an income of between 22-40 GP a week. Not a great amount, but
more than most would get.

After his first month, he's saved up enough to get some masterwork
tools for another +2. This takes them to 28.6-48.4 GP a week.

At the end of their first year, they've easily made over 1000GP. The DMG
tells me this is the cost of a small house, and more than a level 1
would be expected to own. Our little smith is doing pretty well and he's been banking a lot of money.

He buys (or trades for) a ring of +2 crafting, it costs him a lot, but
it boosts his modifier to +14, and thus income up to 36-57.6 GP a week.

He's now almost certain of an income of around 2000 GP a year. If he levels a few times, gets some better stat boosting items, he could probably get to +20 without too much issue in 5 years.

Smith is now 23, and earns 63-90 GP a week. That's 3-4000 a year. Him and his little family live a life of relative luxury. A minor magical forge is within his reach, Giving him a +5 or more bonus if he can find a mage who will build him one. If he can, his income goes up ever further.

By the time he's about 35, and known for his skills across a relatively wide area, I could see him having earned enough for the magical forge and +10 ring.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-17, 07:42 PM
What if you got a 100 apprentices to all aid you? Typically, there's a relationship between how much capital and how many employees you have- marginal something or other. There are no such rules for that in D&D, so hypothetically, you have a million commoners all helping use the same scale.

Better yet, forge fine constructs to aid you. Go go nanobots!

Fax Celestis
2007-06-17, 07:57 PM
What if you got a 100 apprentices to all aid you? Typically, there's a relationship between how much capital and how many employees you have- marginal something or other. There are no such rules for that in D&D, so hypothetically, you have a million commoners all helping use the same scale.

Better yet, forge fine constructs to aid you. Go go nanobots!

There are rules for that. //points to DMG-II.

Tyger
2007-06-17, 08:19 PM
Maybe I'm being obtuse here, but I fail to see why crafting a Mithril breastplate would take so much longer (orders of magnitude longer) than a steel breastplate.

I understand the Craft rules specify to use the cost of the item, but it just seem illogical to assume that you could make 10 steel breastplates in the time it takes to make one Mithril one.

Personally, I think I'd be houseruling this one (never come up in game before) to simply be the cost of the base item (plus materworking) rather than including the cost of the special materials. Hell, a mage can enchant that breastplate to a disgusting level (420,000GP worth of enchantments) in the same time that it takes the smith to make it??? Just seems really counter intuitive to me.

Nahal
2007-06-17, 09:08 PM
Makes you wonder why there arent more wizard craftsmen cranking out equipment and selling it cheaper than all those hard working dwarves.

Wizards have better things to do, like creating creatures with no practical purpose whatsoever, making golems in less time than it takes a dwarf to forge a suit of full plate despite needing much more material, and in general finding loopholes in the Laws of Creation or simply breaking them entirely. Unless you're in Forgotten Realms, in which case the dwarf craftsman IS a high-level wizard. And that one. And the other one over there. Him? He's only level 5, but his brother-in-law is epic.

MeklorIlavator
2007-06-17, 09:15 PM
Special Materials should have some effect, maybe make the special material only add 1/10 of the cost towards the crafting amount, instead of 1/2. That way its still more difficult to use rare materials, but not by as much.

Tyger
2007-06-17, 09:41 PM
Special Materials should have some effect, maybe make the special material only add 1/10 of the cost towards the crafting amount, instead of 1/2. That way its still more difficult to use rare materials, but not by as much.

Yeah, I could see it adding something to the time, but effectively decatupling it (is that a word? :smallsmile: ) seems a tad excessive.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-17, 10:04 PM
Yeah, I could see it adding something to the time, but effectively decatupling it (is that a word? :smallsmile: ) seems a tad excessive.

Not to mention entirely uneconomical. You sell a mithral breastplate at what, 3x what you made it for, but take 10x as long as making a regular breastplate?

Wouldn't you make more dinero pumping out MW breastplates than a singular mithral one?

Someone do the math!!

Ditto
2007-06-17, 10:37 PM
Beside that, there are several cheaper things which can be made in a much shorter time,

Anyone every taken ranks in Craft: Basketweaving? I'm sure you can make up the profit from dropping this Armor nonsense in volume. Everyone likes a good basket.:smallcool:

Aquillion
2007-06-17, 11:29 PM
Also, remember, masterwork items are supposed to be fairly rare, and mithril items even moreso. A mithril object could easily have minor legends about it its own right; the dwarf who forged it would be known, in his own community, as the one who forged the breastplate of Adventurer McFamousguy, and his children would be known as the children of the guy who forged the breastplate of Adventurer McFamousguy. People don't forge mithril items for the money (the raw mithril is already worth a mint), they forge it because it makes them a living legend among blacksmiths.

Umarth
2007-06-18, 08:28 AM
People don't forge mithril items for the money (the raw mithril is already worth a mint), they forge it because it makes them a living legend among blacksmiths.

Of course it's only worth a "mint" because people forge stuff from it and probably for sale because we've already established no adventurer is going to be making their own gear.

If you want people intrested in taking craft skills or making items the rules need to be changed signfigantly.

I recommend changing the time to craft items to 1day per 3 DC of the item being crafted with an additional reduction of 1 day per 6 by which you beat the DC.

You can see an old version of the crafting changes I made in my game here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1625691&postcount=4

Citizen Joe
2007-06-18, 09:38 AM
I'm going to favour the suggestion that the time is based on the basic armour type, then add in more for masterwork. The Mythral'ness is just added material cost. I think there's some rule about losing a good portion of the materials if you fail a check badly, and you're looking at alot of checks so there's a decent chance of messing up.

So a Mithral Breast Plate is a 200 GP item plus another 150 GP for Masterwork (required to use exotic materials) with an extra 4000 GP material cost for the mithral (medium armour).
So:
'construction value' = 3500 SP
DC for craft = 20
Material expense = ~117 GP + 4000 GP in mithral
Fail a check by 5 or more and you lose all of that.
Due to the risk of MAJOR financial loss I doubt anyone with less that +15 Craft: armourer would attempt it.
So +2 from Intelligence
+3 from skill focus
+8 at 5 NPC levels
+2 from masterwork tools.
+2 from assistant
+2 dwarf
For a total of +19 without resorting to magic or going very high levels.
So always succeed, average about (30.5 result x 20 DC = 610 SP progress per week) so about six weeks to make. Say about 25 SP per week for the apprentice (probably more). Probably another 10 GP a week for shop upkeep, meals etc... that's about 4192 GP in expenses for a sale price of 4350 GP giving 158 GP profit for six weeks work (note that food and lodging was already taken out). Now take about half of that away for taxes and tithes and you've got 79 GP take home or a little over 13 GP put towards savings each week.

I'm not sure if you can take 10 with craft, I KNOW you can't take 20... read the description of take 20 and you'll understand why. But if you can take 10, and find another +1 to craft, then you can up the DC to 30 to improve your rate of construction.
That's (30 result x 30 DC = 900 SP per week) about 4 weeks work. That frees up about 25 GP in expenses for gross profit 183 GP or ~92 GP after taxes/tithes resulting in 23 GP per week net profit.

EDIT: Note that this is basically like a basic item with a spell on it. An everburning torch doesn't take 10 weeks to make. It's a 1 CP stick with a spell cast on it. The Mithral breastplate is a Masterwork breastplate made with mithral. Now MAKING Mithral may take some time in itself, but that's a different trade. Probably Craft: Alloy making.. material cost about 1/3rd the end amount of mithral ore/ingots and would take many months to create enough to make the breast plate.

EDIT EDIT: Cheesy rules abuse if you don't do this. Make 'sack of 100 GP', start with 33 gp spend some time crafting and eventually you have a 'sack of 100 GP'. Everyone knows that its time to craft the sack then you put 100 gp in it, but by the craft rules you could do this.

goat
2007-06-18, 11:24 AM
I think it all depends on how common high level characters are in the world. To cast fabricate you need to be at least a level 9 wizard. Now, according to the DMG you'll need to be in a small city to even find one of those, and you'll need to be in at least a large city to be certain of finding one.

Along with this, the wizard needs to have a good chance of succeeding on a relevant craft check. I can think of a lot of skills that a wizard would want to bump up before even considering craft(armour). Besides which, he probably has better use for his time and spells than making suits of armour.

You'd be unlikely to find anyone capable of it at all among the NPC classes, it takes a level 16 Adept to cast a level 5 spell, but whatever they're producing can still be made by the level one commoner. It might take a long time, but they can do it.

Consider a small village, which according to the DMG is likely to have a highest level commoner or expert at level 9 or 6 respectively. The highest level caster will be a cleric or druid, probably only at level 2. It's all a bit screwed up, because a metropolis should on average have a few epic level commoners, but it's RAW.

That commoner is more than capable of being an efficient crafter. They'll have 13 levels in craft and skill focus, at least a +1 intelligence bonus, if not +2, and 12,000GP worth of stuff. That could easily be a +10 ring and some masterwork tools for another +12. All that adds up to a bonus of +29/30 without an apprentice, giving them a take 10 maximum weekly haul of 160GP. All this, in a village where the most expensive items commonly available cost about 200GP. That's over 600GP a month, in a population of under 900.

That commoner can therefore be the primary money through-flow for most of that village, and is probably known in some of the surrounding villages who travel there to buy certain items. If every village has a commoner like that, and another 2 at level 4, and the level 6 expert, they can produce quite a few things at good quality and decent speed without much issue, and probably another half dozen at reasonable speed and quality.

The only people producing super-high quality items and suits of full-plate armour and rare metal gear are going to be high level, working in large cities at least, probably making every piece to order and fit. You shouldn't be expecting a local smith to know how to knock up a suit of adamantine full plate in three weeks, he'll probably never encounter anyone with enough money to buy one.

Matthew
2007-06-18, 10:57 PM
Anyone every taken ranks in Craft: Basketweaving? I'm sure you can make up the profit from dropping this Armor nonsense in volume. Everyone likes a good basket.:smallcool:

Mother Macdoogle, Human Commoner 1
Attributes: Intelligence 12,
Feats: Skill Focus (Basket Weaving)
Skills: Craft (Basket Weaving) 4(8)

Takes the 90 SP she makes after one week and invests in 450 Chickens. Father Macdoogle slaughters them and sells them by the half pound at 3 SP each... soon the Macdoogle Chicken Empire becomes a force to be reckoned with and they are able to sponsor the creation of Mithral Breast Plates...

Yakk
2007-06-18, 11:13 PM
Ok, now just tell me where a non adventurer gets 20 thousand gold.

So you are a L 5 expert with 8 armor smith, skill focus (armor smith)+3, an int modifier of +3, an apprentice and masterwork tools for +4, and are a dwarf for +2.

For a total of +20.

By "taking 10" you can roll a 30. That's 900 sp of progress on a project per day, or 630 gp per week, and you can manufacture masterwork gear reliably.

Of that, 2/3 is profit and 1/3 is materials, so you are making 420 gp per week in profit. Toss half of that at taxes, overhead, housing, food and to pay for your secure location and your apprentice, and you are making 210 gp per week.

In 1 year of crafting and you have saved up 10,000 gp.

You roll this back into your buisness...

Of course the hard part of this is becoming a L 5 expert.

A L 1 non-dwarf expert with an int of 13 and skill focus only has +8 to their skill. They can produce 324 sp per day or 226 gp per week, or 151 gp per week profit, or 75 gp per week after taxes and overhead.

About 3500 gp per year in profit.

If anything, it is too easy to make money.

Citizen Joe
2007-06-18, 11:32 PM
So you are a L 5 expert with 8 armor smith, skill focus (armor smith)+3, an int modifier of +3, an apprentice and masterwork tools for +4, and are a dwarf for +2.

For a total of +20.

By "taking 10" you can roll a 30. That's 900 sp of progress on a project per day, or 630 gp per week, and you can manufacture masterwork gear reliably.

No, that's 900 sp progress per WEEK not day.

Yakk
2007-06-19, 01:16 PM
No, that's 900 sp progress per WEEK not day.

Ah -- so 30 gp in profits per week, or 1500 gp per year. More reasonable!

That means it takes the dwarf master-smith 6 to 7 years to save up 10,000 gp, which would then be leveraged into better tools to make more interesting materials.

...

And yes, Mithril should be harder to craft than steel. It shouldn't be just a matter of "take the ore, shape it" -- we are talking about a mythical material of coolness(tm). It is harder, takes more heat, requires more steps, needs to be tempered just right, and in general requires more work to produce the end result.

This also explains why you use a grand-master dwarven smith to make your mithril breastplates, and not joe smith on the corner. :)

Forks
2007-06-20, 07:40 PM
Along with this, the wizard needs to have a good chance of succeeding on a relevant craft check. I can think of a lot of skills that a wizard would want to bump up before even considering craft(armour). Besides which, he probably has better use for his time and spells than making suits of armour.

I find it odd that you'd say that. The point is that its all about the money. Money and all the associated powers and privileges motivate people in a big way. And with all that Int, a wizard can easily afford points in craft anyways. Sooooo a savvy dude can study up on magic enough to cast Fabricate, then he can make his lifetime fortune as quickly as he can put his hands on some mithril, admantium, or even...normal steel.

Sotha_Cid
2007-06-20, 07:59 PM
Sooooo a savvy dude can study up on magic enough to cast Fabricate...

That Savvy Dude is looking at 9 levels of wizard. At that point, why not just become a full-time adventurer? You're casting fifth level spells. You might as well cast a bunch of 'em.

Generic PC
2007-06-20, 09:05 PM
Because Adventuring can be life-threatening? Because He cant, on account of a disease? there are loads of reasons, you just need to think about them.

Sotha_Cid
2007-06-20, 09:19 PM
That's still 36,000 XP. That's a buttload of goblins. Besides, at level 9, you've likely got enough wealth within the range of having your Friendly Neighborhood Cleric cast a Raise Dead on you.

Not to mention any number of spells that could cure diseases, help to care around the house, etc.

For every unlikely scenario that'd prevent the wizard from adventuring on a full-time basis, there's an equally unlikely scenario that'd clear that up.

Forks
2007-06-20, 09:39 PM
The point is that many people prefer NOT to adventure. I have a friend who just got out of the Army Rangers and could almost certainly get a job as a mercenary for Blackwater making well over \$100,000 a year, but he prefers not to.

Mainly, it just seems crazy that the rules would make it so difficult for someone to hand craft items and so easy to magic 'em up. With the way things are, any smart wizard who wants extra cash should just spend a few days a year producing more than any real smith would be able to and be set. He could do whatever he wanted with the rest of his time.

Yakk
2007-06-21, 09:43 AM
Yes, Wizards are extremely powerful.

On one hand, we have a Smith, who uses hammers and tools to shape metal.

On the other hand, we have the Wizard, who breaks the very laws of physics and bends reality.

One of these is not like the other.

Dervag
2007-06-21, 10:06 AM
Mmmmh...

2 days for Padded.

How about other main armours? Include Masterwork in this, please.

You must understand that this is a character matter: I've put points into Craft Weaponsmith and Armoursmith, to represent the skill to repair, maintain, and if necessary, make his own equipment, top of his potential 'list' being Masterworks than can be used by others, or sold, or handed off to be enchanted later('Magic items needing to be masterwork' is the logic.) It's going to look damm silly if a warrior who says he can make/repair his equip, apparently can't.Well, he can, but it'll take him a long time to make masterwork goods from base materials.

goat
2007-06-21, 10:51 AM
Well, he can, but it'll take him a long time to make masterwork goods from base materials.

Yeah, this is the thing. There's a big difference between being able to repair things, and being able to create them. Bashing a few dents out of a breastplate is considerably different to creating from scratch. Sharpening or straightening a sword is different to forging one. Even re-forging one should be easier as the material has already been worked to a good quality.

Even if you can do these things, it doesn't mean you do them well. I could knock a dent out of a car without much issue, but I'd never be able to get it looking as good as a professional panel beater. Similarly, I could build chairs and tables, I'm not too bad at woodworking, but they're not as good as a carpenter's work. If I wanted them to be, I'd have to spend a lot longer at it than would be profitable.

I think that's the difference here, possible and profitable.