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JanusJones
2016-03-01, 10:58 AM
Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the basement where you last left that weird altar gathering dust ...

... those creepy cats in hooded cloaks showed up again and started stinking up the place with incense.

Bah!

Howdy! This is the game design, chat, and homebrewing hangout for the Cult of Donjon, and on-again, off-again crew of people who dig on design.

Cheers!

As a starter ...

... got this sweet pile of old school games (http://mmlow1979.wix.com/genrecardgame#!The-Analog-Ouch-Physical-Stuff/v7862/56d235ec0cf26bd1d3f1fc7b), recently, and got into Tunnels and Trolls. It's a wicked system (the one I have, which is this little, cool paperback, is from '86) - very "modern" feeling in its narrative flexibility and relative simplicity. Old school sensibility for dungeon crawling, tho - very deadly.

DISCUSS!

On a related note - E, post that question you PM'ed me in my new system thread - it'll give me a chance to reply in public to something other people might be wondering!

khadgar567
2016-03-01, 12:12 PM
since this can go here is there a early access pdf you guys can share?

Eonas
2016-03-04, 03:11 AM
Done!

I tried to get into T&T ages ago, when Ron Edwards was really hitting on it. I guess I never grokked if: the system seemed really tactically shallow for a hardcore gamist RPG, and really blatantly unbalanced too. Can't for the life of me remember why except that the only combat option seemed to be Attack! Roll A Pile Of Craps Dice!

Correct me, though, if my pression was wrong. It probably was.


So what's your paradigm on RPGs now, JJ? As for me, when you left us for the first time ages ago mine was already starting to take a turn for the extreme - and sort of climbed towards a zenith of bizarre ecstatic-euphoric hyperaestheticized torture-porn nightmare-Dada sensibility that I still don't quite understand. And then university started and I realized wow, school's fun too, and that bit of obsession tapered off. I'm not so much interested in roleplaying as a vehicle for expressing that particular aesthetic anymore as I am of... I dunno, actually, in what ways I'm interested in roleplaying right now.

P, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on roleplaying in a post-Cult-frenzy-of-roleplaying-productivity world, too. Although I slightly suspect I already know the answer.

JanusJones
2016-03-07, 09:50 PM
Hey man! Yeah, you were getting a bit weird there at the end, but rpgs allow the indulgence of the more aesthetically bizarre, no?

I suppose I'm on the opposite end. I've been doing dnd for 15+ years ... I think I just got tried of the investment. That and the baby! Also think I realized I'd be a bit happier using my design brain on personal projects than re-treading a lot of my old ideas for char gen in 3.5.

I just started a blog post on the number of different versions of the game I built over the years and realized the first version of the game was in ...2002. Back then, it was a pretty original idea; now, less so. But it's been a blast actually building and playtesting something new, and the result is pretty sweet.

You know I like silly and serious, and a bit campy; that's how I built Genre. I've been telling my kid stories, doing little proto choose your own adventure style things, and it sort of drove home how much we tend to encumber something so natural and intuitive with unnecessary system.

I think that's why tunnels and trolls appealed. It was wonky, but unabashedly so, and just a simple, quick, but playful and uncomplex approach to old school gaming. Good times.

Yeah, so pretty much into dm-free, laid back, anybody can play but story nerds can indulge gaming. Made me recall all the good times chatting with you guys and get nostalgic. Wish I could pay the game with you three and get your feedback!

Eonas
2016-03-11, 03:11 AM
****! Yeah! Let's do Genre! Does it work PbP?

Genre can do ALL genres, yeah? Like, say... Pulpcraft?

JanusJones
2016-03-11, 02:39 PM
Definitely NOT PbP - it's a card game. If you like, I'll send over the pdf - I've not got a blind set of rules, but I can talk you through them. I suppose we could do a simulated version - "draw" cards randomly by rolling, then using them to further the Script.

But YES, Genre WILL be able to do ANY Genre. The first deck and Scripts/Character Scripts I've written up are for a Zombie Apocalypse movie, but I'm working on the Super-Heroic deck after that.

Here's the short SHORT breakdown, if you're curious:


SURVIVE THE ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE,
FIND TRUE LOVE,
or at least
DIE AWESOME.
It’s the end of the world as we know it. You’re in a zombie movie, and you know what that means: there’s gonna’ be a whole lot of back-stabbing, backseat humping, bullets, and biting for the next hour and a half.

If all goes well, you’ll get everything your Character wants: laid, safety, canned food, a generator, and an abandoned amusement park to call home.

If all goes badly, you’ll get what the Audience wants: dead, hopefully in a bloody, disgusting, way that leads to gasps and maybe even tears from everybody who blew money on a ticket.[/INDENT]


WAIT … WHAT AM I DOING?
In Genre: Zombie Apocalypse, you and your friends direct and star in an action-packed, ridiculous, best worst zombie movie there never was.

Every card - from "Sliding Bloody Handprint" to "Fast Zombies" to "Action Sweat!" - gives the Cast a building block to develop the script; Antagonists to fight or flee; Challenges to overcome; Props or Traits to give Characters depth; Relationships for romance, rivalry, bromance; even Death for ... well, for killing folks!

If another Actor starts ruining the Script (or you just feel inspired by what just happened), spend Applause to interject with an “And” or a “But” to re-write things the way YOU see them.* Act well for more Applause and fully develop your Character for a shot at winning an Award when the movie ends!


WHAT IS ALL THIS STUFF?
This game comes with the following stuff for making a movie:

144 totally unique (yep, no repeats!), white Script cards like Shirtlessly Awesome, Abandoned Supermarket, At Last Kiss, Fast Zombies, and Ridiculous Accent to help your Cast get in costume, stay in character, set the scene, get it ON, and otherwise write an interesting story;
144 equally unique grey Screen cards with performances like Dragged Away Screaming, Mexican Standoff, and NOOOOO! to give the Cast acting inspiration;
6 double-sided Character DMs (Development Mats) to help each Actor develop their Character’s personal journey, whether from loner badass to self-sacrificing hero or regular Joe to zombie turncoat;
4 Script DMs (Development Mats) on two double sided sheets, with all your favorite zombie movie plotlines to play through!



I can break down the rules more, but it only takes - when you're sitting at a table with everything in front of you - about 5 minutes to learn and 60~90 minutes to play. The goal is a quick, intuitive, low-investment party-game RPG that lets anybody jump in to the experience. More experienced gamers can take it to the next level by working the story elements around and collaborating to generate a more moving story!

Plerumque
2016-03-11, 05:39 PM
So I confirmed with my friends—we're planning on playing Genre on Sunday. For a little background, friends are not at all gamers—we had half a disastrous game of Pathfinder (though there were fun drunken goblin shenanigans, so it worked out all right) and we've played Twilight Imperium twice. I got them by telling your story about Bobo the clown. Anyway, I have the PDF you sent me in your first email, but if it's changed since then, an update would be great. Do you have any advice on how to go from that to ready to play, though? I assume I need to get it all printed out, cut out the cards, and so on. Get some paperclips. Anything else I need, or that I should keep in mind?

JanusJones
2016-03-11, 06:48 PM
I'm STOKED to hear how it goes! I think you have the best full version, though I'm going through a graphic design re-edit currently - doing a "film strip" for the "Screen" cards and a wrinkled paper for the "Script."

It's TOTALLY designed as a gateway to RPGs - plays like a party game, but the character and plot development can be wickedly fun. I play Bobo a lot - he's been the abused extra at an office party for douchey execs when the skyscraper gets hit with the undead, and even the ignored love interest who sacrificed himself for his scientist crush (I also played Awkward Nudity, "Who's Laughing Now!?", and Single Silent Tear in that script ... GOOD times!).

You are, my friend, my first official blind test! I'll try to write the rules up, too. Again, for play purposes, it works best if you just print the cards, slice'em (preferably with a scrapbook slicer or paper cutter!), and sleeve'em with whatever cards you have lying around (Magic works!).

SO STOKED! CAN'T WAIT! Lemme know your number so we can chat! :smallbiggrin:

Plerumque
2016-03-11, 08:48 PM
I'm not blind, if you thought I was. Apologize if I accidentally gave you that impression. My parents are both teachers of the blind and visually impaired, so I may have mentioned it sometime. Oh, and while we're on DRAMATIC CHARACTER REVELATIONS, I'm not old enough to drink. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

Anyway, the rules in the PDF seem fairly straightforward, but if you'd like the opportunity to explain in real time, I can give you a call. Problem is, I'll be traveling pretty much all of tomorrow, and our game might be too early West Coast time to call Sunday. I could give you a call with the verdict if you want, but if you were offering more as a help to me than because you wanted to talk it out, then that's not super necessary. Appreciate it, though.

JanusJones
2016-03-11, 09:32 PM
Wow. If my rules seemed straightforward, I'm THRILLED. I did NOT, for the record, think you blind or visually impaired - I'm just VERY aware of how difficult many folks find playing ANY game by just reading the rules. Also, the starting round rules have changed a bit:

To start, everyone should draw a hand of 6 Cards – three Script (White) cards and three Screen (Grey). Take a second to check’em out, and pick whichever you think you can use to introduce your Character at the beginning of the Script.

After everybody’s got their combo in mind, go around the table and tell the story of where your Character is and what s/he’s doing as the zombie epidemic begins. When you tell your story, lay your card WHEREVER YOU LIKE: YOUR Character DM or on the Script. In general, white cards play on white spaces and grey on grey.

When everybody’s done, count to three and point at who YOU want to start the movie. Whoever has the most votes starts – if it’s a tie, play paper-scissors-rock, or just be grownups and the person who wants it more can go.


Other things not in the rules currently: we tend to play with decks in two stacks, face up - it's okay to read ahead!

Other than that, if you thought the rules made sense, hallelujiah! And as for being underage - eek! I mistakenly assumed you were of age due to the maturity of your voice, for which I apologize - I also think I assumed 3.5 players MUST be ancient like me. I do not recommend drinking as a past-time in general, but especially I don't recommend ANY illegal ANYTHING to ANYONE, and nothing unsafe, either!

Also, for what it's worth, the game is TV-MA - it's not for kids under 18. Hope you aren't; if you are, I think it's best to wait till I finish the Super-Heroic deck (which will be PG-13!).

Thanks for offering a blind playtest, and do tell me how it goes. Any and all feedback will be used!

Plerumque
2016-03-12, 09:55 PM
OK, cool. I was just a bit confused by your language, and I know there was one point where Eonas thought I was blind 'cause I was talking about attending Blind Idol. Thought maybe something similar had happened here. But if you're just trying to avoid being able-normative or whatever, that's cool. Just wanted to be clear.

All right then! Thanks for the update; I'll let you know how it goes. Write up the feedback from our not-blind blind test after we're done, or the day after maybe. Hope it helps!

JanusJones
2016-03-13, 04:26 PM
Now I WISH I was trying not to be able-normative. Shoot.

Nah, really I've just come to the conclusion that MOST games are "learn by doing" enterprises - almost EVERYONE has their first experience with a new game by having someone who's played before TEACH it. I think it's pretty wicked that it's one of the most analog experiences still out there - tabletop games, more than any other current "entertainment," require in-person, face-to-face social interaction. I actually blogged a little on this, but I think that there are elements of tabletop gaming - conversation, ideas, and so on, of course, but even something as basic as physical exchange of objects - which tap into very basic, primal, evolved reactions and interactions.

There's research that's shown that one reason credit cards are so dangerous is that they avoid an evolved tendency all humans have: not wanting to physically give up objects that have ascribed value to them (aka, CASH!). A credit card you get right back; consequently, you escape that built-in warning circuit in your brain that says "hey, hang on to that - it's precious!" Same thing, methinks, with tabletop gaming - actually exchanging cards, dice, tokens, etc. involves people in a way that is very basic. It makes the interactions more intense, more pleasurable, and ultimately, more binding than, say, online stuff.

... says the guy who stays in touch with his online game buddies better than his IRL ones.

This has been a time-wasting post to kill hours before hearing how the playtest went. I'm dying to know!

Eonas
2016-03-13, 06:32 PM
Yeah, I know what you mean. This is (one of the very many reasons) why face-to-face poker is vastly better than online poker, for instance. Ditto for chess.

If you got time to kill, JJ, sometime we oughta pile onto IRC and have a session of something.

Plerumque
2016-03-13, 09:10 PM
I'll put up a more detailed post tomorrow, but it was a success—everyone had a lot of fun. Our cast was an annoying kid convinced he was the messiah, a drama-queen stripper in love with a zombie, a dapper gent unlucky in love, and a ninja. Only real problem was that no one would have the right cards to meet a scene's goals and advance the plot, so we would just keep stacking up cards on the DMs, and plot elements would get pretty rapidly buried and lost track of. This may have been more a problem with a poorly shuffled deck and our tendency to get sidetracked than anything else, though. Anyway, my friends asked me to thank you for making the game, so I think that's a good sign.

JanusJones
2016-03-14, 10:49 AM
Technically I DON'T, but my kid and wife were napping and I was hankering to see some feedback ...

... but hey, a PbP WOULD work. There's another aspect of T&T that I like - combat is "compare a pile of numbers," but there's this "extra" rule that begs for creative collaboration. You can describe ANY action you'd like to take, along with an effect on the target you're hoping for, and the GM can give you a "save against" number for ANY Attribute (so you could ask to save vs. Charisma to seduce a foe into ceasing combat, or fake them into allowing a surprise round, or intimidate them into backing down ... and so on).

But I'm down for whatever!

EDIT: I left this post un-posted yesterday, and I've got a response!

YAY! Tell them about the site, if you would: genrecardgame.com (http://genrecardgame.com). If they like it, I'm figuring out publishing options at the moment, and likes on Facebook would be grand! I'm also currently working on a Super-Heroic version of the game, so if they're down to test more, I'd happily send any and all of them pdfs!

About the DMs not progressing, if nobody was actively drawing from FACE-UP decks and discarding to allow for more draw, that probably slowed things down. I don't think it was included in the rules I gave you (hence why I was nervous about a blind playtest; I realize some of the confusion earlier arose from my use of the term: a "blind" playtest means a playtest WITHOUT any explanation or the presence of one of the designers - people playing it "blind" out of the box, without guidance!), but we put the decks in FOUR stacks, FACE UP, and people always discarded everything they didn't want and tried to draw to move the plot.

REALLY excited to hear more! Any notable quotables would be amazing, and if you have ANY interest, I'd LOVE to post it as a "guest blog" on our site!

There's a design thing I'm considering which I'd LOVE feedback on, too. Part of the "Analog Ouch," I've realized, is that printing something with lots of bits in COSTS a lot - both for printing and shipping. I've already trimmed the game down from over 600 cards originally to 320 (I'm currently shaving the two decks down from 160 cards apiece to around 144), but even so, the price is high. I'm considering trying DOUBLE-SIDED cards - one side for Screen, one for Script. The idea would be that you would still be able to play up to two cards per turn, but if you wanted to, you could flip a Screen performance to make it a Script card or vice versa (it would count as playing a card). You could flip a card anywhere - on someone else's DM, on your own, on the Script DM - whatever.

Not sure what it would do to playstyle, or even if it would work, but it's a thought! The hand size could shrink to 4, too, since that would really be 8 cards, and it would mean you'd always have more Icons in your hand to move the Script forward.

I should really call it a Plot DM, or maybe call them Plot and Performance decks rather than Script and Screen. Script DM and Script Deck is a bit too much overlap, no? Hmmm ...

... In any case THANK YOU SO MUCH! I'm thrilled it's been playtested blind, and ANYTHING ANY of your friends had to say would be GOLD! In fact, I'd kill to get e-mails or any kind of written feedback - it's designed for EXACTLY them: people who aren't "hardcore" gamers. AND you - people who ARE, but have non-hardcore friends and want a chance to play an RPG with them that's easy and fun.

Phew. Just ... thanks, man. So stoked!

Plerumque
2016-03-14, 07:47 PM
So before I get into the narrative, lemme respond to the design thing real quick: Yeah, that'd make sense. My printer ran out of ink so we had to transcribe the cards by hand, and they ended up being unevenly sized, so we pretty much just put them in two bowls like Halloween candy. We did discard, but I think it was usually in favor of cooler rather than plot-advancing cards, and It wasn't a problem, just a different playstyle, I think, because our storyline was built more off the individual character arcs than the Script.

So let me introduce our cast of characters. First was Bobby, our Old Faithful and Whiny Kid. He had a terrible Southern accent, courtesy of me, and spent most of the game complaining about how sinful everyone was.

Next was Maeby, our Flawed Heroine. Her character defining card was Goldy Stripper. She was introduced with a Necrophilia Joke about a patron she'd fallen for—"I loved her, and she stiffed me." Most of the game was spent pursuing this zombie strip club patron, named Qkuaka.

Then our Hardcore Heroine, a Ninja named Nora. She had been abandoned by her cruise-ship-director parents on an island as a child and raised by birds. After making it back to the mainland, she trained for ten years in the combination club/dojo where Maeby worked.

Finally, our Hopeful Romantic, Aaron, a Dapper British Gent who came to seek his fortune in the apocalypse after the power cut out and he could no longer content himself with TV boyfriends.

Our Script DM was The Quick and the Undead, with Sunrise/Sunset, Human Sacrifice, Cultists, and Amusement Park as our setting elements. We began in the theme park, and all described why we were there—Maeby to practice dancing on the pole of the merry-go-round, Bobby to censure this display of hedonism, etc.

The game started with a Friendly Rivalry being sparked. "I'm a stripper. You're a ninja. Which one of us... can put our feet all the way behind our head." Maeby won, but as part of the contortions, a Self-Destruct Button accidentally got hit. With one hour to escape the park, Bobby has a near-death experience and prophesies that they must escape down the park's waterslide, the highest in five counties. However, everyone knows that with a waterslide that high, there's only one way to get to the top... Fun with Elevators. BUT... as the elevator rises, Maeby's player states: We're not alone. The Devil's in the elevator, and he's in one of us.

Thus follows about fifteen minutes of accusing each other of being possessed by the devil, rather like a grand old game of Mafia. Bobby attempts to convince everyone to come to the righteous way, and embrace Jesus' love. Nora asks, does Jesus love arson? Bobby looks right in her eyes, and, without a blink, tells her, "Yes." This was all done without any cards, just improv.

But as it turns out, the Devil's not in a person, he's in the girders. With the shriek of metal, the elevator tears loose, falls down the waterslide (physically improbable, but we rolled with it) and crashes into an Office Building. And out of the closet, having hidden there from the apocalypse, steps Spunky the Punk. We interpreted 'Punk' as someone with a poorly conceived mohawk rather than a kid, for this scene.

Spunky just wants to see the world burn, so he and Nora quickly become arson buddies. In the process, Aaron begins to see something in Spunky he never saw before, as Nora's player declares that he's Got the Hots for Spunky. Unfortunately, the next day Maeby gets jacked up on some seriously illegal substances and rips Spunky's arm off, revealing he's a zombie. He then gets thrown out a window and Curbstomped. In revenge, Aaron targets Maeby with a voodoo curse. Can't recall if there was a card for that or not. Nora also dramatically reveals that Spunky kissed her while Aaron was out of the room.

We then return to the theme park, after a brief interlude with a tango-dancing horde of zombies. This is where the second arc of the Script DM begins, by the way. We find that a band of survivalist nomads have taken up residence in our park, and stationed Snipers on the Rooftops. BUT... their leader, Dave, is someone Aaron recognizes from a pre-apocalypse Bromance. Dave lets our heroes in, but before they can come inside, the voodoo curse takes effect! Maeby is attacked by Lovecraftian Horrors and torn apart as Aaron, who originally invoked the curse, sighs, "I Always Knew It Would End This Way." Bobby, wanting to afford her body some dignity, drags her over to the bridge and drops her on the Freeway, where she lands in the bed of a passing truck.

BUT... Maeby revives as a Sneaky Zombie. A sneaky, sneaky, zombie. So she hides in the truck, and bides her time.

Meanwhile, the remaining three have entered the nomads' colony. A Training Montage plays as Dave teaches them the ways of the survivalists. Aaron falls in love with Dave. After about a week has passed, Dave sends them out on a Resource Run. AND... the truck the nomads use for supply missions is the same one Maeby's been hiding in, having fallen in as the truck made its way back to the colony after the last run.

Nora stumbles into Maeby in an Accidental Hug, and the two are joyfully reunited, a touching moment which is interrupted when Aaron starts throwing chickens out the window. BUT... it's all part of a plan. Dave has seen, out the window, a Ridiculous Zombie on a motorbike who's Dressed to Kill in clothing made entirely of guns. This is when Bobby starts preaching. He tells them he can save them from the zombie. He has seen it! He can usher in a new world order, one of prosperity and joy, far away from these mockeries of God's creation. The only cost? They have to make him Lord of the New World Order... and he demands the destruction of Maeby, as an abomination - our Human Sacrifice. This is where Bobby becomes an Antagonist.

Aaron's had enough of this. In a What the Fu? move, he leaps across the room, snatches Maeby's Precious Personal Possession—the severed left hand of her gay zombie lover—and slaps Bobby out of the truck with it, leaving a Sliding Bloody Handprint as he falls into the clutches of the ridiculous zombie.

BUT... the Ridiculous Zombie has a Ridiculous Accent, and Bobby bonds with her over this shared trait. She takes Bobby off on her motorbike and they have a Friendship Montage. Over the course of this montage, Bobby comes to realize he's been slapped so hard with the zombie left hand that he has become gay himself. He thus loses his faith in a heteronormative God, and returns to the amusement park preaching a revolution with significantly more rainbows and sparkles. Everything's good for a while, and then the third arc of the Script DM starts.

Our heroes are out on another supply run. Bobby's the only one who knows how to drive, and he can only drive tractors, so they're chugging along. However, Fun with Subtitles reveals the tractor's internal monologue—it, too, has been affected by the gay revolution, and decides it doesn't care what its tractor parents think, it must seek love, at all costs. It changes course, and begins heading right into a horde of Spider Zombies. As they overtake the tractor, Nora sees the faces of, not only the nomads, but the parents who abandoned her. The nomads had dark secrets, and they've betrayed us.

Overcome with the sudden realization that they never loved her, Nora decides to commit a murder-suicide—she can't go on living, but she's Not Going Alone. She's taking Maeby with her. For context, Maeby had previously attempted a murder-suicide as well, but Nora had feigned a Deathly Pallor to escape. Anyway, with Maeby and Nora dead, Bobby and Aaron are shocked. Nobody’s quite whole, and nobody will ever trust like they used to, but they manage to escape and, on the gay tractor, chug-chug-chug their way into the sunset.

Bobby wins Best Director, Maeby wins Drama Queen, Nora wins Comic Relief, and Aaron wins Action Hero. And they asked me to thank you for making such a fun game. I'm happy to write this up and post it in your game thread or on your blog. I'll see if any of my friends are willing to write up their thoughts as well. Also happy to answer any more design questions, but that'll have to wait until tomorrow.

JanusJones
2016-03-18, 11:51 AM
WOW!

That's the most incredibly detailed playtest rundown a guy could ask for! It sounds - despite the problems with printing (apologies! That's one reason I'm looking to cut down on components - that and cost!) - like it was pretty par for the course. Some run-throughs are more serious, but it all depends on the group - it DOES tend to be a comedy game, which is intentional!

I wonder whether you had all the cards as full text, or just titles? How long did it take? It DID sound like everybody developed their characters fully, though, and you DID follow the plot even if loosely!

I'd LOVE to hear what everybody else had to say! Any thoughts, modifications, requests - anything? I'll make sure you get a copy when we print the final version!

Plerumque
2016-03-19, 03:08 PM
Just text, but we checked a few of the descriptions on the pdf. Took around two hours, maybe two and a half. I don't know that there's anything I'd recommend changing - we didn't really play with the two-part scene narration requirement or the restrictions on where the icons can be placed, but it's pretty explicit that that's not integral.

The double-sided cards idea is interesting - I like the thought, but it seems like it'd be really hard to pick which cards go with which, and it could end up seeming artificially limiting of what cards you can play. Also maybe would make players want to check both sides of a card before picking it up, which could slow down the game a bit.

One of the main comments I got was that they liked how loose the rules were, and how adaptable they were to our playstyle, so I think it's a good idea to keep emphasizing that. I think it might be cool to have some advice to help players inventing new DMs as well as new cards. Doesn't really matter so much with the Character DMs, I'd think, but I think it'd be a good option for a group to be able to say "hey, this game isn't enough like a soap opera" and write up a new Script DM with more Relationship and fewer Antagonist icons in each arc, for example. Stuff like that's already encouraged in the game, I think, but if you're giving advice on making up your own cards a few paragraphs on making new DMs could be a great help or inspiration to some groups.

And I'll ask my friends if any of them would be interested in popping you an email or writing up something like this, though I don't think any of them felt like they had all that much to say.

JanusJones
2016-03-19, 11:10 PM
Even just "had a great time!' or whatever is amazing. I have a few quotes, but more never hurt!

I definitely WILL include script bits. The idea was to ultimately make the thing communal - I'd love to have a forum where folks could contribute cards, CharDMs, and ScriptDMs. The DMs were designed to be print and play, too, so that when a new deck was released (Super-Heroic and Teen Drama are both pretty complete), you could download and print up a few new "Genre-Bender" Scripts and blend your decks.

Glad it played well! The concept was definitely "story legos" - sure, there were instructions, but the blocks fit together intuitively so you can build whatever you like.

Plerumque
2016-03-20, 12:10 PM
Hey, on another note, have either of you checked out Storium (https://storium.com)? I've been looking for some alternatives for narrativist gaming, and someone brought it to my attention. Very rules-light system - players have cards for strengths, weaknesses, subplots, and assets, and they have to play a given number to complete challenges and progress the plot. Not particularly interesting compared to some of the indie RPGs, but very open-ended and writing-focused, and it's attracted a community with pretty high standards. Kinda interesting.

JanusJones
2016-04-03, 05:28 AM
Haven't, but how's it any different from, say, HERE? Sorry for the long absence - kid! I was thinking, though - there's nothing keeping story-focused gaming for a crew like us out of the forums themselves, no? I mean, we got some good short stories started there for a while (I'm thinking of the Shadow War game, where Cam had some wicked noir-y action and E was a very sinister vamp). What would OUR version of "rules-lite, narrative-focus" look like?

What ARE the minimum requirements for collective storytelling?

With genre, I'm definitely going for "quick, accessible, zany" along with "taps into tropes" to make for ease of play. I was considering, however, for new decks, things like a "theme mat" or "world mat." Example: Anime might have a "world mat" with card spaces like "power type" (psionics, mutation, holy/unholy powers, cybertech, big robots, aliens, etc.), "conflict type" (romantic squabbling, good vs. evil, self against society, etc.), and so on.

With savvy players and conversation, I think most rules would go out the window. Maybe just some understanding of turns? Phases?

I was also playing about with the Kishoutenketsu method (Intro, Development, Twist/Turn, Resolution) as a card layout, and it might be adaptable to the forums.

I'd also be down for a slow paced game of WHATEVER. I liked T&T for ease of play, but I kind of want to develop a quick rules-light (but still tactically interesting) RPG for my kids at school (many of whom are interested, but I don't have time to teach'em DnD).

Thoughts?

Holler back!

Plerumque
2016-04-03, 09:10 AM
I don't think Storium is better by any means - in fact, I find their system a lot less interesting than most of the RPGs like Apocalypse World or Nobilis or whatever. It just seems to have attracted a community that's more interested in the writing side of this, and E and I have groused before about it being difficult to get a whole lot of interest for heavily narrative games.

As far as the minimum, I honestly think it's a few people on the same page as far as the kind of story they want to tell. Practically, though, I think you need some way to prevent anyone from monopolizing the story and maybe a system that can inspire players to think in different directions.

I'm down for whatever kind of game, but I suspect Eonas is pretty busy right now, so it might make sense to just kick around some ideas and wait until summerish to start anything.

Eonas
2016-04-03, 08:40 PM
Finals end the 15th for me. After that, let's jam! I'd prefer something not PbP, though: I've been very very bad at PbP lately: ADD and university hyperstimulation. Speaking of PbP, P, you want to pick up Nightshade again? Kinda forgot about it for a while.

JanusJones
2016-04-04, 07:39 AM
Feel the busy. Currently behind on everything, which is perversely when I tend to write the most OTHER stuff.

Some thoughts:

Most classic rpgs are really a combination of a couple of games – a story-telling macro-game, with looser rules for adjudicating results, and a tactical combat mini-game for zooming in on what should be climactic, dramatic moments. The overarching storytelling game is about narrative development of characters, relationships, humor, and plot elements – unlocking doors, coming up with plans, seducing or flattering folks, evolving character relationships and story arcs, etc. The mini-game is like chess – it’s a bunch of numbers, gambling, resource-management, and even design: most rpgs have some element of character design that, to a varying degree, reward clever or innovative design (or relegate it to “fluff-only,” placing the character’s design into the realm of the “story” game).

In reality, it’s trying to simulate something similar to a movie. Most books don’t really show combat in detail – even the most combat focused gloss over details, as they’re narrative dross for the most part. Movies are the narratives which use combat – and detailed, cinematic, blow-by-blow depictions of it – to build emotional engagement and a rising sense of drama. Sadly, most rpgs fail to manage this, and though the rolling, tactics, and resource management necessary to “win” a combat can be highly entertaining and engaging, nearly every table will suffer through the slog of a “grind” fight – something that degrades into a slug-fest of “roll to hit, roll damage, rinse and repeat.”

The question becomes how to build a better systemic representation of the cinematic style of play I would argue most games seek. Something closer to an anime – a game in which EVERYTHING – every combat, every blow – is invested with narrative import. A conflict in an anime is ALWAYS narratively significant: characters learn new techniques and evolve during battle, form, develop, and end relationships while they trade blows, reveal secret pasts and motivations through flashbacks – battle is not just invested with dramatic energy, but narrative purpose.

So …

To clarify, I'm using Scott McCloud's definition of panel transitions in Understanding Comics to explain to myself how I'm thinking about these sorts of narrative transitions. Not sure if it's useful for others or not - depends on your outside knowledge.

Every move MUST include a cinematic element:

Visual: Picture, video, drawing. A description or even an actual drawing or internet picture, this must evoke the scene.
Dialogue: Speech, line. A dramatic, touching, clever, cool, memorable line or speech. Can be a conversation, so this may involve another player.
Sound: Song, sound. A song or sound effect that echoes, underscores, intensifies, or otherwise builds the emotions of the scene.
Gesture: Move, pose, action. A gesture that builds the scene by emphasizing an action.


Every move should ALSO have a Narrative Purpose:

Relationship: Build, alter, resolve.
Challenge/Conflict: Create, alter, overcome/resolve.
Motivation/Goal: Reveal/introduce, pursue, attain, change.


Every Scene must have a Narrative Purpose:

Plot: Introduce, overcome, develop
Character: Introduce, Remove, Develop
Detail/Depth: Lost for various verbs, here ...


Objects:

World: Setting/Places, Group/Faction/Character
Theme: Emotion, Genre, Balance (Action/Drama/Comedy)
Suspension of Disbelief/Rule: Verb?



Questions:

What resources need to be used/managed? Think Grit/Will/Determination/Spirit, Health/Toughness/Armor, Strength/Power, Charisma/Charm and so on.
Can one resource be converted into others?
Are there “upkeep” and also “move” costs for each round?
Does everyone define their own Scene before playing? Do people “war” for control of the Scene?
Do we need "success vs. failure" as a mechanic? What would be more interesting?


Anime Observations: Typical methods for upping drama/moving narrative:

Surprise: “OMG – I didn’t expect that he’d use the secret X technique!” “You mean he’s not X, he’s really Y?!”
Overwhelming horror: heroes seem totally overmatched, then are saved/overcome
Level-up: heroes grow hugely to overcome seemingly impossible odds
Flashbacks: Explain motivation by giving characters quick backstory to explain emotional responses to situations during combat
Power of ideals/Test of Conviction: when a conflict is between ideals, the heroes will overcome by stating theirs powerfully and using their fists to prove they’re right; heroes prove they really love each other, or really believe in their comrades/group, etc.
Conversion: Sympathetic villains will often be converted to the side of good through their connection to and interaction with the heroes; heroes will become evil due to festering emotions
Hidden Motive: characters acting in strange ways will have hidden motives for their behavior
Humor: even in the middle of a fight, a narrative lightening of mood through crude, awkward, goofy, or whatever humor
Extreme Characterization: cool guys are uber cool, lame guys are extra lame, people with crushes are obsessed, evil guys are freaky murder monsters, etc.
Power Chess: when the interaction between powers or strategies becomes a complex game of “you thought I’d X, but then I Y’ed, which gives ME the upper hand!”

OliverRaw
2016-04-04, 08:02 AM
Feel the busy. Currently behind on everything, which is perversely when I tend to write the most OTHER stuff.

Some thoughts:

Most classic rpgs are really a combination of a couple of games – a story-telling macro-game, with looser rules for adjudicating results, and a tactical combat mini-game for zooming in on what should be climactic, dramatic moments. The overarching storytelling game is about narrative development of characters, relationships, humor, and plot elements – unlocking doors, coming up with plans, seducing or flattering folks, evolving character relationships and story arcs, etc. The mini-game is like chess – it’s a bunch of numbers, gambling, resource-management, and even design: most rpgs have some element of character design that, to a varying degree, reward clever or innovative design (or relegate it to “fluff-only,” placing the character’s design into the realm of the “story” game).

In reality, it’s trying to simulate something similar to a movie. Most books don’t really show combat in detail – even the most combat focused gloss over details, as they’re narrative dross for the most part. Movies are the narratives which use combat – and detailed, cinematic, blow-by-blow depictions of it – to build emotional engagement and a rising sense of drama. Sadly, most rpgs fail to manage this, and though the rolling, tactics, and resource management necessary to “win” a combat can be highly entertaining and engaging, nearly every table will suffer through the slog of a “grind” fight – something that degrades into a slug-fest of “roll to hit, roll damage, rinse and repeat.”

The question becomes how to build a better systemic representation of the cinematic style of play I would argue most games seek. Something closer to an anime – a game in which EVERYTHING – every combat, every blow – is invested with narrative import. A conflict in an anime is ALWAYS narratively significant: characters learn new techniques and evolve during battle, form, develop, and end relationships while they trade blows, reveal secret pasts and motivations through flashbacks – battle is not just invested with dramatic energy, but narrative purpose.

So …

To clarify, I'm using Scott McCloud's definition of panel transitions in Understanding Comics to explain to myself how I'm thinking about these sorts of narrative transitions. Not sure if it's useful for others or not - depends on your outside knowledge.

Every move MUST include a cinematic element:

Visual: Picture, video, drawing. A description or even an actual drawing or internet picture, this must evoke the scene.
Dialogue: Speech, line. A dramatic, touching, clever, cool, memorable line or speech. Can be a conversation, so this may involve another player.
Sound: Song, sound. A song or sound effect that echoes, underscores, intensifies, or otherwise builds the emotions of the scene.
Gesture: Move, pose, action. A gesture that builds the scene by emphasizing an action.


Every move should ALSO have a Narrative Purpose:

Relationship: Build, alter, resolve.
Challenge/Conflict: Create, alter, overcome/resolve.
Motivation/Goal: Reveal/introduce, pursue, attain, change.


Every Scene must have a Narrative Purpose:

Plot: Introduce, overcome, develop
Character: Introduce, Remove, Develop
Detail/Depth: Lost for various verbs, here ...


Objects:

World: Setting/Places, Group/Faction/Character
Theme: Emotion, Genre, Balance (Action/Drama/Comedy)
Suspension of Disbelief/Rule: Verb?



Questions:

What resources need to be used/managed? Think Grit/Will/Determination/Spirit, Health/Toughness/Armor, Strength/Power, Charisma/Charm and so on.
Can one resource be converted into others?
Are there “upkeep” and also “move” costs for each round?
Does everyone define their own Scene before playing? Do people “war” for control of the Scene?
Do we need "success vs. failure" as a mechanic? What would be more interesting?


Anime Observations: Typical methods for upping drama/moving narrative:

Surprise: “OMG – I didn’t expect that he’d use the secret X technique!” “You mean he’s not X, he’s really Y?!”
Overwhelming horror: heroes seem totally overmatched, then are saved/overcome
Level-up: heroes grow hugely to overcome seemingly impossible odds
Flashbacks: Explain motivation by giving characters quick backstory to explain emotional responses to situations during combat
Power of ideals/Test of Conviction: when a conflict is between ideals, the heroes will overcome by stating theirs powerfully and using their fists to prove they’re right; heroes prove they really love each other, or really believe in their comrades/group, etc.
Conversion: Sympathetic villains will often be converted to the side of good through their connection to and interaction with the heroes; heroes will become evil due to festering emotions
Hidden Motive: characters acting in strange ways will have hidden motives for their behavior
Humor: even in the middle of a fight, a narrative lightening of mood through crude, awkward, goofy, or whatever humor
Extreme Characterization: cool guys are uber cool, lame guys are extra lame, people with crushes are obsessed, evil guys are freaky murder monsters, etc.
Power Chess: when the interaction between powers or strategies becomes a complex game of “you thought I’d X, but then I Y’ed, which gives ME the upper hand!”


She only played a major part of the campaign in IA, but smear away, it's the way of DonJon's cult of personality

ChrissP
2016-04-04, 09:50 AM
Nice design! I like it:smallconfused:

JanusJones
2016-04-04, 12:49 PM
She only played a major part of the campaign in IA, but smear away, it's the way of DonJon's cult of personality

Umm ... I'm confused ...

Who is the "she" you're referencing? What is IA an acronym for? And who is being "smeared" - I didn't think I had attacked ... anyone? Anything? And what cult of personality?

... I'm afraid I'm just completely confused, but totally willing to chat! If you can clarify, I'm down to figure it out!

And hi Chris! Thanks for the input! Did you mean Genre (http://mmlow1979.wix.com/genrecardgame#!what-it-is/j2ti6), or the stuff I was laying out above?

The stuff above isn't so much a design, just out-loud babbling about ideas. Trying to think through how to approach a PbP-style game (or tabletop, I suppose) with a more narrative system. Posted a bit about MDA (http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/MDA.pdf) (Mechanics, Dynamics, Aesthetics) here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?483530-The-8-Aesthetics-of-play-Their-roles-and-affect-on-our-games&p=20622536#post20622536); I guess I'm trying to think of how to make everything Narrative (as in anime, where even a basic combat move ends up furthering story/upping drama) while still keeping the Fellowship Aesthetic from most rpgs. I'd like to have more Mechanics supporting Challenge, too, I think, or at least a bit more structure than the way free-form approach I took in Genre (http://mmlow1979.wix.com/genrecardgame#!what-it-is/j2ti6), which is much zanier and more of a "party rpg" than a serious, longer, bigger-scale "story" rpg.

I thought the verbs might be a fun way to do it, but I'm not sure how it would work in action ... would those just be ways to clarify/categorize a post or "move"? Would there be times you could or couldn't do certain things - like you couldn't "level up" unless the "drama" scale had gotten to a certain level? Would too MUCH drama lead to a "overload" or "tragedy," which would be the reason you'd need to move the "comedy" scale up (balance it out, regularly drop the drama down so no one would have to die ... oooh, maybe having the drama TOO high would mean a major character would have to buy it, or some other world-shaking tragedy would have to occur?). Maybe you'd have to "pay" Drama and/or Comedy to achieve certain narrative events?

Any thoughts on how you game, like to game, games where narrative is more fore-front, or what-have-you? Down to chat, if you'd like!

Plerumque
2016-04-04, 07:19 PM
Finals end the 15th for me. After that, let's jam! I'd prefer something not PbP, though: I've been very very bad at PbP lately: ADD and university hyperstimulation. Speaking of PbP, P, you want to pick up Nightshade again? Kinda forgot about it for a while.

Sure! I'm liking the vibe of the first few posts. Don't want to pressure you if you're busy, though.


Feel the busy. Currently behind on everything, which is perversely when I tend to write the most OTHER stuff.

Some thoughts:

Most classic rpgs are really a combination of a couple of games – a story-telling macro-game, with looser rules for adjudicating results, and a tactical combat mini-game for zooming in on what should be climactic, dramatic moments. The overarching storytelling game is about narrative development of characters, relationships, humor, and plot elements – unlocking doors, coming up with plans, seducing or flattering folks, evolving character relationships and story arcs, etc. The mini-game is like chess – it’s a bunch of numbers, gambling, resource-management, and even design: most rpgs have some element of character design that, to a varying degree, reward clever or innovative design (or relegate it to “fluff-only,” placing the character’s design into the realm of the “story” game).

In reality, it’s trying to simulate something similar to a movie. Most books don’t really show combat in detail – even the most combat focused gloss over details, as they’re narrative dross for the most part. Movies are the narratives which use combat – and detailed, cinematic, blow-by-blow depictions of it – to build emotional engagement and a rising sense of drama. Sadly, most rpgs fail to manage this, and though the rolling, tactics, and resource management necessary to “win” a combat can be highly entertaining and engaging, nearly every table will suffer through the slog of a “grind” fight – something that degrades into a slug-fest of “roll to hit, roll damage, rinse and repeat.”

The question becomes how to build a better systemic representation of the cinematic style of play I would argue most games seek. Something closer to an anime – a game in which EVERYTHING – every combat, every blow – is invested with narrative import. A conflict in an anime is ALWAYS narratively significant: characters learn new techniques and evolve during battle, form, develop, and end relationships while they trade blows, reveal secret pasts and motivations through flashbacks – battle is not just invested with dramatic energy, but narrative purpose.

So …

To clarify, I'm using Scott McCloud's definition of panel transitions in Understanding Comics to explain to myself how I'm thinking about these sorts of narrative transitions. Not sure if it's useful for others or not - depends on your outside knowledge.

Every move MUST include a cinematic element:

Visual: Picture, video, drawing. A description or even an actual drawing or internet picture, this must evoke the scene.
Dialogue: Speech, line. A dramatic, touching, clever, cool, memorable line or speech. Can be a conversation, so this may involve another player.
Sound: Song, sound. A song or sound effect that echoes, underscores, intensifies, or otherwise builds the emotions of the scene.
Gesture: Move, pose, action. A gesture that builds the scene by emphasizing an action.


Every move should ALSO have a Narrative Purpose:

Relationship: Build, alter, resolve.
Challenge/Conflict: Create, alter, overcome/resolve.
Motivation/Goal: Reveal/introduce, pursue, attain, change.


Every Scene must have a Narrative Purpose:

Plot: Introduce, overcome, develop
Character: Introduce, Remove, Develop
Detail/Depth: Lost for various verbs, here ...


Objects:

World: Setting/Places, Group/Faction/Character
Theme: Emotion, Genre, Balance (Action/Drama/Comedy)
Suspension of Disbelief/Rule: Verb?



Questions:

What resources need to be used/managed? Think Grit/Will/Determination/Spirit, Health/Toughness/Armor, Strength/Power, Charisma/Charm and so on.
Can one resource be converted into others?
Are there “upkeep” and also “move” costs for each round?
Does everyone define their own Scene before playing? Do people “war” for control of the Scene?
Do we need "success vs. failure" as a mechanic? What would be more interesting?


Anime Observations: Typical methods for upping drama/moving narrative:

Surprise: “OMG – I didn’t expect that he’d use the secret X technique!” “You mean he’s not X, he’s really Y?!”
Overwhelming horror: heroes seem totally overmatched, then are saved/overcome
Level-up: heroes grow hugely to overcome seemingly impossible odds
Flashbacks: Explain motivation by giving characters quick backstory to explain emotional responses to situations during combat
Power of ideals/Test of Conviction: when a conflict is between ideals, the heroes will overcome by stating theirs powerfully and using their fists to prove they’re right; heroes prove they really love each other, or really believe in their comrades/group, etc.
Conversion: Sympathetic villains will often be converted to the side of good through their connection to and interaction with the heroes; heroes will become evil due to festering emotions
Hidden Motive: characters acting in strange ways will have hidden motives for their behavior
Humor: even in the middle of a fight, a narrative lightening of mood through crude, awkward, goofy, or whatever humor
Extreme Characterization: cool guys are uber cool, lame guys are extra lame, people with crushes are obsessed, evil guys are freaky murder monsters, etc.
Power Chess: when the interaction between powers or strategies becomes a complex game of “you thought I’d X, but then I Y’ed, which gives ME the upper hand!”


Interesting. Personally, I don't know that I'd want to use something like that - I find that social interactions, etc. are more interesting than the most interesting of fight scenes, so I'd rather roll with something where combat's quick and brutal than long and elaborate, even when it's designed to still tie into relationships and drama. That may just reflect my playstyle, though—not a big fan of most anime either. Looks well-done, though.

JanusJones
2016-04-05, 10:08 AM
It's not done at all! :smallsmile: Just kicking out some thoughts for general discussion. Really just a hierarchy of organization with a bit of verbage to kick around.

Apropos of Storia, found a "choose your own adventure" style free app called StoryCraft. Wondering if it's worth looking at.

Eonas
2016-04-05, 01:35 PM
Yeah, ditto; I do like the move system you've outlined. Is this an attempt at codifying rules through which a cinematic story can be told, or (this is similar but different) a set of rules to have a cinematic roleplay session?

I dunno: I've been doing a lot of Apocalypse World this past year or so (especially last summer), so I guess that's rubbed off on the way I view narrative-heavy roleplaying. Less mechanics saying, here's how you make a story, and more mechanics presenting me with a series of interesting decisions. Narrative decisions i mean, decisions like will i scare this guy by shooting his mamma in the foot, or will I just kill him outright; not decisions that don't affect the game color in any meaningful way like, will I take this AoO now or later?

Personally, right now I'm really digging the idea of something macabre and violent and surreal and ****ed-up again; all this game chat's bringing the old Eonas back! (Also, been reading some LaVey lately, so that's probably playing a part as well) And I just realized that I never really got satisfied on that front ages ago - got close but no real dice.

How about y'all? What are you in for?

JanusJones
2016-04-06, 06:11 PM
I've been jamming on that last post, personally; I've been watching Naruto and souping up the Anime deck for Genre, and it got me thinking about different styles of gaming. I guess I'm an Expression/Narrative gamer first, with a bit of Fellowship/Fantasy on the side. I'm down to play whatever with you guys; I'm like you in that I'm less interested in rules than narrative, but whatever's easiest is best for me.

I'm REALLY enjoying thinking about design, too, so I'd love to figure stuff out with y'all. I added the idea of "Momentum" and the Drama/Comedy scales to all that junk earlier.

Here's what I was thinking:

Momentum: The more BAD stuff that happens to a character, the more Momentum they build! Big moves in the story require a lot of Momentum to pull off; if you want to have a Level Up transformation, for instance, you gotta have a lot of narrative Momentum built up by suffering, failing, or getting beat on, first, right?

Drama: This is a slider for the entire Cast (sorry, been writing Genre so long the words feel normal - I've been using that term for the entire group of players). The idea would be to use it as a measure of how Dramatic things were getting; if the Drama got to a certain level, tragic, bad stuff would happen.

Comedy: The Comedy slider would be a "whole Cast" thing, too, but used to ratchet the Drama scale down. What would happen if the Comedy scaler were too high, then? Maybe it could just be the "negative" side of the scaler? If it were too high, though, you'd lose Plot, no? I mean, even SitComs need their "serious" moment ("awwww!" when the couple makes up, or "ooooh!" when the fight gets serious, or even just that moment of silence they use to stuff "got real") to move Plot forward. Maybe you can't move the Plot unless there's positive Drama, but too much leads to Tragedy?

Anyhoo, yeah, P - sorry you're not into Anime. I'm not all the time, but to be clear on what I'm into lately, it's system design and light-hearted, narrative and expression focused systems. Something easy and fun to play, but with some nice structural supports to keep the flow easy - to inspire, not restrict, I guess.

Sorry if this was off topic. I'll play anything, y'all, but system building with help is kind of what I've been into. Holler if anything sticks, or throw out another bone - I'm down!

cameronpants
2016-04-08, 10:11 PM
Hey guys. I've perused some of the posts and will go back and thoroughly sift through those stream-of-consciousness of Janus' soon. I just really wanted to check in and say hi.

Update of my life: Kids are healthy and happy. One's almost done kindergarten, other is potty training himself. Got a new career which keeps me busy roughly fifty five hours a week. Wife is doing her Bachelor's degree online which leaves me as primary parent as well as house maid and chef. I've picked up carpentry and made a skookum jungle gym for the backyard. I kicked an eleven-year smoking habit right in the happy beans, and picked up running again. I'm running a high-powered, crazy-houseruled 3.5 game every couple weeks, but due to wife's night time schooling it will be hard to sustain. Bought a brand new laser printer so I can get your game printed, JJ. My daughter's almost got reading down and she's super excited to "game with daddy".

But enough about me! What about something like Don't Rest Your Head?

JanusJones
2016-04-09, 03:49 PM
Dude! What's it gonna take for MY almost 3 year old to poop on the potty?! He pees in the potty like a pro, but come time for a deuce and he's off in a corner, hiding, saying "Please give me some privacy." I've also been primary parent before, and it's a noble, serious job: much props.

CAM! I missed ya, man! Glad to hear you're healthy, employed, and gaming!

Gimme a PM with the e-mail to send it to and I'll fire off a pdf of the game (http://genrecardgame.com). You basically print it on paper, then cut the cards out and sleeve'em with the game cards of your choice (Magic cards being the most common thing most of my gamer friends have sleeved and lying about). If you're down, you can be the impetus for me to get the newest graphics done (with color! Just one: red, of course) and send you the new version. It's a bit trimmer and slimmer, and much sexier, methinks.

I'm trying to get the steam up to upload all the files to Gamecrafter so people can order and print up a cheap (no profit for me, just a beta version to play!) version to check out (blind playtesting = best way to finalize the product!). Stymied on promotion, though - I'm not a businessman, just a nerd with a dope game! LOVE to hear what your group makes of it!

What's Don't Rest Your Head?

Plerumque
2016-04-09, 04:47 PM
Guess the band's back together! Good to see you, Cam, and congrats on the... everything! Sounds like you've gotten some pretty damn impressive things done (full time career and primary parent, plus carpentry, running and gaming? Is motivational speaking your new gig?).

Don't Rest Your Head is pretty cool, IMO. The conceit is that the players are insomniacs who've had their eyes opened to this surreal, nightmarish side of the city, with talents born of madness and exhaustion. Don't know if it's so much up your alley, though. I actually have a character written up from a while ago, when E and I thought we might try it out before mutually bailing, so you can check it out if you don't mind the threat of pretentious writing and bad metaphors, shamelessly stolen from a much better author:

1. It was always the middle of the night when I wrapped up the day’s business, closing the cover on the spreadsheets and reports, watching the faces of managers and suppliers and investors from around the globe wink out one by one on my monitor. I’d stand and stretch and down the last bitter dregs of my coffee, and then I’d take the stairs. A few minutes later and I’d be standing on the top floor, half-built, steel ribs jutting out from among the stone and plaster. There were no railings, but I’d stand at the edge anyway, gazing out into the alien constellations of the city lights from above them all, stiff and unmoving until dawn bloodied the night. When the figure’s high enough, you can’t tell if it’s lord or gargoyle.

2. He was an old man, crooked and sun-browned, who entered my office that day. I didn’t know how he got there - my security was impeccable - but I didn’t give it a second thought as I gestured for my bodyguard to remove him. It was only when he cleared his throat politely a few minutes later that I realized something was wrong. I paused the conference for a moment and looked up. My bodyguard was gone, and the old man wore a slight, smug smile. I stood up, not bothering to conceal my irritation, and asked, “Sir, can I help you?”
He said, voice low and soft as if lost in reflection, “And now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.” With that, he raised one withered hand.
And my tower crumbled. My desk split, dumping its gleaming technology on the floor, where it shattered into crude plastic totems with wires spilling like blood. Cracks spiderwebbed across the newly-washed windows, and the landscape outside shuddered. The door broke off, and the old man stepped neatly aside as it slid across the tilted floor, catching the ruins of my desk and bookshelves and sweeping it all towards me in a wave of devastation. The window splintered as I crashed through it, and only flashes came to me as I fell --
-- my tower, collapsing with awful majesty --
-- the old man, serene through the broken window --
-- the city below that I had lorded over so many nights --
-- the people with no time to scream --
And then, with a moment of vertigo, I was standing on the street as if I’d never fallen. But it wasn’t the street I’d known, for my tower was gone, if indeed it had ever been.

3. I began to fear change after that, beginning a futile campaign to preserve myself as I had been the moment when the old man walked into my office. I was wandering the streets, suddenly homeless and purposeless, in cashmere suit and silk tie. I held myself high. I was the big man, the one to watch, important -- only for the fact that I wasn’t. People would try to talk to me, only to find me silent, always silent, whether they named it imperious or wretched. I watched them, saw what they could not. My penance.



4. In the old days, when men tried to reach the skies, God cast them down and scattered them. But He got it wrong, that time, for we regrouped and rebuilt until each of us, divided as we were, strove once more to master the province of angels. He got it right, this time. The only thing worse than understanding nothing is understanding everything.
I walk the streets and everything is laid bare before my eyes. In the slightest changes of expression, I see disgust, fear, rotten jealousy. I hear the things left unsaid, and never am I the better for it. Sweet gestures take on the faithless sheen of condescension. In art and beauty I see only vanity and self-importance. Sympathy turns to mockery and I the center of it all, dancing for your amusement in my cap and bells. Come, see the man who thought to make his own God.
Even as I steal from others their silences, their things-not-said, their right to remain silent, it becomes mine. I cannot speak. I cannot write. I am blank, a slate waiting to be etched with a new destiny. I believe that it was God in my office that day, not some Nightmare toying with me or insomniac delusion. I believe that I must atone. But when I reach for forgiveness, it flows through my fingers, shapeless and illogical as the ethics of dreams.

5. There must be an end to my torment. Perhaps it will come when I once more come face to face with the old man, and show him what lessons I have learned. Perhaps it will come when I reclaim my glory, and place the capstone among the clouds. Perhaps it will come when I understand why it is me in this hell, and not any other ruthless tycoon, or perhaps it will come in the arms of death, where no one has words. Until then, I must speak my last, and return to the place where I cannot scream.

Eonas
2016-04-09, 10:49 PM
Hi, cam!

DRYH's pretty great. Really want to give it a shot sometime. Otherwise, maybe something else nice and mirvid. (Somehow I feel like cam in particular would really like Apocalypse World - dunno why)

JanusJones
2016-04-09, 11:09 PM
Y'all know me - I can get serious, but my default isn't madness, more madcap mayhem. I like lighthearted stuff; I tend to find my characters through play and interaction, which actually might be the root of my issues with PbP, come to think of it!

I haven't played apocalypse, savage world, or even fate - I'm down for any of those! I'm really interested in buying and playing microscope, too; it might be a fun venture for us in terms of collective world building and storytelling, and it has a great rep. I'm also deathly curious about the system!

Good to be back in the saddle with the whole posse.

cameronpants
2016-04-09, 11:22 PM
Dungeon World actually inspired me to slap together pieces of Reign, Tunnels and Trolls, FATE, and Donjon to create a super lethal no-magic fantasy system for a game I plan to run IRL for sessions where not all the main Cast shows up. The -- World series are great, and there are some truly impressive hacks out there for it, too.

FATE is my current go-to, especially now that the core rules, Fate Accelerated, and all the Worlds of Adventure books were Pay What You Want on rpgdrivethru. I'd love to play/run/whatever a Fate game or derivative thereof. The Gods & Monsters World of Adventure looks pretty nifty.

I want to run a very particular, peculiar DRYH game that's less about the Mad City and the Paper Boys and more about layers of reality and madness. And it could be punny and tongue-in-cheek too.

I agree with JJ. Something lighthearted would be very welcome.

Plerumque
2016-04-10, 09:33 AM
Well, what I'm reading into the last two posts is that there are a couple of solid options, if we want to try doing another game:

1) A more lighthearted game of Microscope. E and I played a comic version of Microscope Echo once, chronicling the exploits of Goody McTwoShoes and Tricky McShifty, and it seemed to work out alright. I know JJ is a fan of Walter Moers, and I think we could definitely do something pretty cool with building a Zamonia-esque world.

2) Donjon! It's still one of the most fun games I know, even though I've expanded my palate tremendously since we founded this cult (of personality?). I don't know of anything else that's built so perfectly for zany hijinks. I also have a character left over from a dead Donjon game (man, I have a lot of old characters, don't I), and I could also run, since Cam did it last time.

cameronpants
2016-04-10, 10:42 AM
Well, what I'm reading into the last two posts is that there are a couple of solid options, if we want to try doing another game:

1) A more lighthearted game of Microscope. E and I played a comic version of Microscope Echo once, chronicling the exploits of Goody McTwoShoes and Tricky McShifty, and it seemed to work out alright. I know JJ is a fan of Walter Moers, and I think we could definitely do something pretty cool with building a Zamonia-esque world.

2) Donjon! It's still one of the most fun games I know, even though I've expanded my palate tremendously since we founded this cult (of personality?). I don't know of anything else that's built so perfectly for zany hijinks. I also have a character left over from a dead Donjon game (man, I have a lot of old characters, don't I), and I could also run, since Cam did it last time.

Donjon could indeed work. System-wise, it's something I've poached from on numerous occasions.

Microscope I think would be awesome too. Especially if, once it's been fashioned and finished, we go ahead and play other games in it, using other systems, to truly explore and extrapolate the setting. That would be faaaantastic.

JanusJones
2016-04-10, 11:30 AM
I'ma go buy the pdf. Been wanting to - need to read up. Let's Microscope a timeline, then do another game like Donjon for some up-close n' personal action! Or Fate, or Savage World/Apocalypse World/Whatever.

But DO read through my previous thoughts on an anime battle-story system? Good ideas were in there waiting to be shaped, I thought.

Oh, and who were those two masked, confusing/confused posters, apropos of P's mention of their casual weirdness? I think the one dude was just a temp account to post something and ditch, since he only had the one post. Have you all poked any trolls lately? :)

cameronpants
2016-04-10, 12:21 PM
I was going to suggest using Fate or Fate Accelerated for Scenes, but wanted to brush up on Microscope rules first.

I'll definitely read through that today. I'll admit I'm not the biggest fan of anime either, but I've seen some staples.

Edit: The more I think about Don't Rest Your Head, the more I think we could do it seriously; surreal, violent, and bleak. Even if it's only a collection of short scenes, I'd love to run it. The setting is different enough that I will write up a guided character quiz that builds your PC from their perspective. After chargen we can decide if it's the right fit. This does not preclude my interest in Microscope with a Fate drizzle on top.

cameronpants
2016-04-10, 05:38 PM
1) Who are you?
I don't want your name, your SIN, or your place of birth; I want to know who you are, what you're like. And make it snappy.

I am a(n) __(adjective)__ __(noun)__ who __(descriptors and qualities)___.

2) Why are you important?
And don't give me that "I'm nobody, just a normal guy" crap. If you're reading this, doing this quiz, then you're ****ing special. Did you save someone's life? Discover a new breed of shrimp? Get a star named after you? Gimme one thing that's somewhat interesting about your otherwise empty life.

3) What's important to you?
Is it money? A kid? Being the smartest in a room? And don't sugar coat it.

4) What do you know?
What's something you could be considered an expert, master, or guru at? Something you're notably better at than the average Joe? Everyone's got something, even if it's "sleeping in" or "shirking responsibility".

5) What do you know?
Forget what you answered to the last four questions.
It means **** all.
You know something- a life-altering, reality shattering, capital 'T' Truth. What is it? How can you use it? Because They're after you now. And if you want to survive, you're gonna have to fight.

The rest of the quiz reverts to the subject matter it was before (6. What were you reading?). Your eyes focus again; you had tunnel vision while you read through the quiz, and the colors of the world return- somewhat more vibrant than you remember- to your peripheral vision.

You scan the document again- but the quiz is gone. You get a moment of intense vertigo; you let your eyes scan your environment (7. Where are you?), tracing the lines and shapes of the world in a stupor.

It was right, though. Something was different. You Know now, Know there is more out there. You think back to the first time you learned the Truth, the first time it manifested in your life (8. What happened the first time you used the Truth?). It stands out in your mind like a moment of vibrant color in an otherwise black and white film.

You glance back at the document, and notice a nickname, a callsign- and you know, totally certainly, that it's yours now. (9. What is the name?). Next to it is an address- 1882 Nimbus street. That's just across town. Next to that is a time- (10. What time does it say?) you can make it there by then.

... (11. Do you go?)

JanusJones
2016-04-10, 05:56 PM
Violent and surreal I can do; bleak, I'm not so sure, honestly! In my old age, I deal with the ugliness of the world primarily with optimism, idealism (ha!), irony, and fantasy - I'm not sure I can take myself seriously enough to get bleak. Honestly, my last and most bleak post EVAR was that Shadow War bit, which I just wrote for some characters who were a bit divergent (and with the strapped stress of a new parent, which has mellowed to the tired pride of the toddler parent).

Might be fun to do Microscope for world-building just to see what kind of compromise our divergent concepts would lead to!

EDIT: Saw the questionnaire. FUN! I'll do it.

cameronpants
2016-04-10, 06:42 PM
Maybe let's define the word bleak, then. How about dire? When the hope is all lost, and the future is filled with dread, but the Cast continues to soldier on, striving for a better future in a world of grey- that's what I mean by bleak. That tone and mood that screams GIVE UP at the PCs from every angle, every dark corner filled with danger, but they do what they can because they must. I don't mean totally hopeless, I mean appears hopeless and filled with doom.

I look forward to seeing what you all end up with. I've done a quick example for ya.

1. I'm a washed-up firefighter who is addicted to BDSM.

2. I once saved a doctor's life. Pulled her from a burning condo. Six months later my mom was in a car accident. She got really banged up. Doctor who tried to save her slipped and severed her brachial artery, didn't even notice. My mom died at the hands of the doctor I saved.

3. Honestly, I'm really into, like, getting high and tying people up. It's not even about the sex, it's just this weird obsession with knots. And tying people up with them.

4. I'm really good with ropes. Didn't used to be, but, well, you get good at the things you're passionate about.

5. Oh, ****. Sometimes The Fire Fights Back.


---

6. A newspaper article about Mardis Gras floats in California

7. I'm at a hole-in-the-wall cafe with good biscotti and ****ty coffee. I'm sitting out front smoking a cigarette, most likely regretting my life decisions up to that point and hoping some pretty girl will notice me brooding and join me.

8. It was after I was off the squad. I was a heritage fire fighter- third generation. We owned that hall. I drank my first beer there, kissed my first girlfriend. When I was fired it was like my entire life was this brittle, awful joke that nobody laughed at but me. Anyway, I kept up with the calls for a couple weeks. Thought I could at least join in and help, but I was always too far behind, held behind the tape. Once they arrested me. *******s. But one time I, ah, maybe started the fire myself? New development, up on East Rise. Nobody lived there yet. Figured I'd wait a bit before I called it in. As I watched the blaze go up, I found myself dozing off. Not a normal sleep, but like this twilight between being alive and being a ghost. And then I saw it, and the words- the Truth- echoed in my head, no sound, just meaning and implication. Then the fire stood up. It walked towards me, slowly, towering inferno a dozen feet away, the heat was insane. It rumbled out the words. "Ever had a fire fight back?"

9. ...Dark Roast? The **** kind of name is that?

10. 11:12 AM

11. What else should I do? Of course I go.

Edit: Might have gone a bit 'adult' on this one. Apologies. I wanted to write about someone totally lopsided mentally.

Eonas
2016-04-10, 06:50 PM
Good to be back in the saddle with the whole posse.

Yeah, no kidding. Missed this.


Microscope sounds excellent. What do we want to microscope? Fantasy, space opera, or? I feel like it'd be best in real-time though or the actual scenes would bog right down. My and P's effort was successful I think largely because we were doing it via IRC.

DRYH, violent/surreal/bleak sounds excellent. You know me. Presumably there's room for variance in tone - if I want to go full Martyrs and JJ wants something more optimistic, there's room for all types? Yeah? No?

Indeed, fun quiz! I'll have to brush up on DRYH, though. I don't believe I ever finished reading that rulebook.

cameronpants
2016-04-10, 07:25 PM
Yeah, no kidding. Missed this.


Microscope sounds excellent. What do we want to microscope? Fantasy, space opera, or? I feel like it'd be best in real-time though or the actual scenes would bog right down. My and P's effort was successful I think largely because we were doing it via IRC.

DRYH, violent/surreal/bleak sounds excellent. You know me. Presumably there's room for variance in tone - if I want to go full Martyrs and JJ wants something more optimistic, there's room for all types? Yeah? No?

Indeed, fun quiz! I'll have to brush up on DRYH, though. I don't believe I ever finished reading that rulebook.

I think, for Microscope, I'd like to do something that starts late on in a classic fantasy setting, but then techonologically advances to the space age. Lord of the Rings advances to Star Trek. Space travel is made possible by wizards and magi who are 'Warpers'. Otherwise, interstellar travel is beyond humanity's (metahumanity's?) reach. Other, alien species can do it by using tech to bend space, or tunnel through wormholes, but humans depend on arcana. Something I wanted to explore, but it's a pretty daunting task.

IRC would work great. I am only really free at night after kids' bedtimes. That's about 8:30pm Pacific Standard (UTC - 08:00). Though that's every weeknight, and some weekends.

Yes, of course there's variance in tone. The characters will define it in the end, and a mix is welcome. It's not classic DRYH, but the rules are pretty simple:

Choose an exhaustion talent.
Choose a Power.
(Optional: define your power in three tiers: 1-2 dice, 3-4 dice, and 5-6 dice. The 1-2 dice level is doing things others can conceivably do, but you are awesome at it or do it in the fraction of the time. 3-4 is usually beyond the scope of small nations, but not impossible. 5-6 is the 'Eff You, Narrator!' button level, where you can truly be the center of the scene and win at it. Of course, there are risks to using any dice at all, so.... there you go.)

That's basically it, crunch-wise. There's stuff about figuring out what you turn in to if you go full Monster, and other 'vice and virtue' type options, but that's all fluff. Which is changed because it's not just about physical sleep- in my version, it's mental fugue. Eventually, your psyche tires out. If you let your guard down.... watch out.

Edit: Maybe less Star Trek and more Firefly meets the future in Wild Talents involving the war with The Fish and the impending war with the Builders. The humans have an edge in that they can teleport around in space and their firepower is effectively bottomless, but the Fish are so advanced biologically and technologically it's a grueling affair.

JanusJones
2016-04-10, 10:34 PM
I can chat from time to time, but no guarantees - the little man's bedtime varies, and I tend to be pooped. I'm more down for PbP. That said, despair, bleakness, etc. doesn't excite, honestly - I want more of a carefree fantasy romp than anything! I like going from fantasy past to future, but I do dig me some character driven stuff.

I could do with just about anything silly, but serious stuff ... I don't think I have the energy. Maybe a bit of lightheated Donjon? I wrote a backstory for a Battle Chef I never used, though I never boiled the country's background down to a single character ...

To understand the strange, elegant, clinical, creative, disciplined, fierce art of Zen Battle Cuisine, it is first crucial to understand the cultural and geographic history that birthed it.

The country of Tabe-Houdai lies in something of a natural and magical anomaly - a range of curved mountains that arc up around it on all sides. These mountains, apart from being massive, snow-capped, and unpassable by anything but the most powerful magics, are also beset by massive magical storms - disturbances known as Arcanawraths. This, sages theorize, may be what gave rise to the great number of bizarre and ferocious man-eating creatures that populate said mountains.

It’s a bit difficult to figure out how people ever ended up in Tabe-Houdai.

Scholars might argue, but the legends of the people in the region are very clear on this point: the mountain range is the shell of an enormous egg, from which hatched the great god Kiareensai, an enormous bird. People are the beings that emerged from the sticky bits left behind when the thing took off.

Human life isn’t terribly valued in Tabe-Houdai.

Tabe-Houdai may be a single, united kingdom under a hereditary monarch, but the nobility is in charge of the day-to-day affairs of the kingdom. As there is immense magical energy infusing the kingdom, but nearly nowhere to expand to, the sport of jockeying for power has been refined over the centuries into an elegant, beautiful, complex, and deadly art.

The most basic issue with assassination and combat, of course, is the extended lifespan of those living within the cradle of mountains combined with the fact that there’s really nowhere to run off to once you’ve killed someone. As everyone’s related to one another (as the entire civilization is limited to about a fifty-square mile radius, it’s hard to find anyone who isn’t at least your second-cousin), just one revenge killing usually means several generations of prolonged back and forth, with loads of collateral damage. The War of the Chicken Leg, famously begun when a noble had his younger brother executed for consuming a particularly expensively prepared comfit, nearly destroyed the kingdom; when all was said and done, there were only a few hundred citizens left to rebuild.

This foundational problem is exacerbated by the terribly arid and unproductive ground. The theft of a chicken leg might not seem the most reasonable cause of a multi-generational conflict, but to the inhabitants of Tabe-Houdai, the illegal consumption of someone else’s food - particularly meat, but really anything well-prepared and nutritious - constitutes the height of sin. Things don’t grow in Tabe-Houdai, and though it’s an awfully magical place, as most experts will tell you magic doesn’t really MAKE things, so much as CHANGE things - you can’t eat magic. Therefore, magic concerning food - altering soil, growing nutritious and delectable species of plants and animals, and really anything concerning eating and cooking - became the pinnacle of achievement for the luminaries of the arcane craft who dwelt in Tabe-Houdai.

The solution they developed for resolving disputes without lasting or spreading consequences therefore makes perfect sense, given the context.

While murder might be a crime, a greater one was the theft of food. Some of the sensible survivors of the War of the Chicken Leg proposed a new legal system, one founded on the principles of good taste, governmental efficiency, and fair play. Those who could not resolve disputes in any other way could challenge each other to cooking combat. The winner might kill his foe, but if he failed to prepare his corpse as a delicious, nutritious meal that would delight the nobles and aristocrats who attended as judges, he too would be killed and eaten. If a vendetta was executed in a way that satisfied society and fed the public, then it wasn’t a waste - the violence had produced something of use. If not, then the perpetrator would pay for his murder, and society would still benefit from a feat. The test was not just about skill at fighting and killing, but the art of using ingredients to please a discerning crowd. No meat would be wasted, all would be fed, and the art of cooking well with meager ingredients would be elevated to an art form.

It was a brilliant move, and quickly Combat Cuisine became the central focus of Tabe-Houdai society.

There were many schools of chef-assassinry, each with their own unique approach to the process. Chefs would poison their own bodies, attempt to cultivate fatty deposits, lace their skin with strange piercings and implants to make themselves nearly impossible to skin and dress. The counter techniques involved learning how to assess an opponent’s body modifications and either render them ineffective with capsule darts filled with marinades and spices, alchemical antidotes, deft and surgical knifework, and even plans to sneak various flavorful additives into the opponent’s meals months before a contest. Equally important became the so-called “Souix Chef” skills: using clubs, hatchets, scalpels, forks, and any other of a number of devices to tenderize, flay, drain the blood from, and otherwise prep an opponent for butchery while simultaneously rendering him unable to fight.

Part of me just wants to try out the world I've been building in stories for my little guy. He's got a fun, connected series of adventures going as Sailor Sage. Currently he's on the lam with his crew (which includes the all-female pirates of the Ocean Rose, who they joined up with to escape from a monstrous whale on the way back from the Dark Country) from the Imperator Consortium, who had re-possessed his ship, the Rainbow Wing (a vessel dreamed by Old Waheeli, the greatest shipwright who ever lived, that barely skims the surface of the waves) as an asset to pay the debts of his patron, Jack Dorsey, the wild-eyed adventuring trader Duke.

The men in brown bowlers are out there, searching, and as the Consortium has deals with every known kingdom that would lead to certain arrest, Tortoise Ho and the Sage Andromedus (who between them navigate the ship, with Tortoise Ho being the expert on the ocean floor, being that he's a courtier from the palace of the Dragon Emperor, and Andromedus being a heck of a dude for maps on vellum, what with being raised in the Temple of the Light and devoted to endless knowledge from infancy) have set course for the Port of Last Resort, the most lawless landing in all the seven seas ...

There's a lot more. A country of goblins who were exiled by their Yeti brethren, the forest of the Singing Elephants, temptations by oasis demons and a trip to the endless shelves of the Library ... I'd love to get it down some time.

Holler!

Eonas
2016-04-11, 12:17 AM
Cute. I like the Rainbow Wing and the Borges reference.

Sure, I'd be down to do lighthearted. The system would have to be ****ing fun, though, or I feel like at some point I'd get bored and my thumbtack goblin or whatever would try to call forth Yog Sothoth for sh*ts. Donjon?

And I feel like if we were to do something whimsical, it'd have to highly-aestheticizededly so. That's what draws me to the macabre, after all: there's nothing more aesthetic and atmosphere-driven than a horror film. Typical fantasy settings bore me. There's just not enough aesthetic coherency to dragons and goblins and raiders and things prancing about in Oerth or Faerun or whatever. The setting you mentioned, JJ, seems neat.

Or, hey, maybe something highly-non-aestheticizedly so, something really balls-to-the-wall, Planescapey. Have y'all ever looked into Dungeons: the Dragoning?


Still really digging the DRYH thing. I'm available mainly after 7 PDT as well.

I'll do the questionnaire a little later, whether or not we're actually going to play DRYH, because it seems bloody fun.

JanusJones
2016-04-11, 03:13 PM
Meh - aesthetic is where and when you create it. me, I feel ambiance, mise en scene, and emotive environments/character motivations are reliant on an understanding of genre. Perhaps it's a bit more automatic for YOU to craft an aesthetic in horror; that might be because of your enjoyment of certain authors, artists, directors, etc. It might be you just have a proclivity for the genre, or that you've explored/been exposed to more quality art within the genre, or, most likely, a synergy between the two (found one or two that spoke to you, got nerdy about it, ended up submerged in it).

Still, important to know your genre likes and dislikes. Been into the MDA (http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/MDA.pdf) for discussing goals in gaming - it has categories for the type of game experience you favor (Expression, Challenge, Narrative, Fantasy, etc.). On the other hand, I think it needs something about the MOOD of the game - sometimes we imagine that it's separate from the Mechanics or Dynamics of the game, but it's often built in (though, as an emergent quality, hard to put a finger on). I tend to be into playful, whimsical, goofy, ironic stuff, with a nice dose of fantasy or sci-fi. Horror is fine, but I prefer it to be tongue-in-cheek if I'm writing it; as an audience, I'm open to dark stuff, I just don't wanna write the stuff.

You like twisted, dark, surreal, etc. It's a conflict of Aesthetic, no?

Agreed on more unified aesthetics for a fantasy world - hence why i thought Microscope might be a fun way to build.

A thought I'd had: what about each of us being responsible for an initial character with his/her own background - the background itself outlining an element of the world (like the Battle Chef thing - a country, religion, race, language, area - whatever - gets sketched by the character). The only rule would be that those would have to interact and become central to the plot.

I was also thinking about that "micro/macro" thing; perhaps if when narrating anything, we had to add a larger story element and a smaller? Example: we get up and get breakfast; perfect opportunity for an aside about cuisine in the region, and any related topics, no?

EDIT: You'd like this. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sigilstonepublishing/belly-of-the-beast-rpg)

Plerumque
2016-04-11, 06:00 PM
I'll take a crack at the DRYH thing a bit later. I also don't have much time to write up much of my thoughts on style and aesthetics, but I suppose I'll say that for the most part I agree that mood can come from anywhere—I have a fairly undiscriminating palate for both literature and music—but that, left to my own devices, I'll tend to be drawn to the strange and surreal, partially because my prose in its current stage of evolution is rather florid and it seems to fit, and partially because it by definition refuses to conform to any set of worn-out old tropes. I like the idea of something macroscopic in scale, but think if we're doing that we definitely need to have some way to unify it, 'cause it seems like we have a large array of aesthetics represented here. Or maybe not? Don't know.

cameronpants
2016-04-11, 07:49 PM
We most definitely have a wide range of aesthetic appeals here, but I also believe we each have a powerful ability to stretch, bend, and twist our current inclinations- or, perhaps, influence and modify those of each other. How often have one of us come up with an awesome idea that clashed magnificently with our then-current regime, only to thought-provoke each of the others into a deluge of game-/character-designing bliss?

All too often.

I think we need to just let it happen a little bit. We are able to look into each others' words and derive inherent tone and mood decently well. I mean, we've had the practice- and even if we miss, the others can carry the ball adequately enough.

Let's focus on Microscope for now, and throw in some Donjon or Fate after a bit.

Plerumque
2016-04-11, 08:21 PM
So you're thinking something along the lines of JJ's idea where we each start with a character and go from there? Sort of starting at our respective thematic poles and working inwards to some kind of marvelous aesthetic mélange at the center?

cameronpants
2016-04-11, 10:25 PM
Yes! I think we should do the late-fantasy world into sci fi fusion game. Maybe these four characters are at different points along the timeline, and begin as additional Legacies for the game? That way they get additional focus and care for the entirety of the history.

Should we bookend and do Inclusions and Exclusions first? I don't want to write about Shon Talil, the Amnesiac Immortal Gardener, if our Microscope game goes on to preclude the use of Immortality.

DRYH is a very specific flavour and tone of game I want to relate, so if we're going lighthearted I'd rather not run it. At least for now.

I am going to design a handful of characters in both Fate and Donjon for potential use in this game, from the budding renaissance of technology and arcana in the Bay of Titus, to the rims of the Renegade Systems in the distant Tessulon Nebula.

Eonas
2016-04-12, 12:47 AM
Thought: Do we have to do inclusions/exclusions? I feel like it could be fun to just... let it happen. Like old friends in an improv troupe together.

Sorry, lack the mental resources right now (just before finals) to articulate why. Thoughts?

EDIT: Also, bloody cool link. Thanks, JJ!

I dunno why, but something in cam's post made me want to retry a dada-surrealist experiment I first attempted with P, ages ago, where you write as quickly as you possibly can, without using backspace or self-editing (of any kind: if a word pops to mind, you HAVE to write it down next). Like an extreme version of free-writing. Here's the result. (http://pastebin.com/kZ3s5u07) I apologize.

Really fun exercise, though. Also, very interesting to uncover the linguistic thought patterns that lie untapped at the bottom of your mind. I highly recommend it.

cameronpants
2016-04-12, 12:47 PM
I think that's a fantastic writing exercise. I'm going to do that for five or ten minutes everyday and log the results in a binder. I will not reread them or look them over until I have accumulated, say, twenty of them. Cool.

I remember this feeling I got when I was a youngster and I played Final Fantasy VI for the first time. Or Zelda: A Link to the Past. I remember the feeling of adventure and discovery, of finding the secrets and twists to not just the story, but the setting, and even system. I want to somehow recreate that feeling in a game of Microscope. I want to delve into the twists and nuances of the stories, discern the mysteries and secrets we all present for each other. It's less about the genre or tone for me, I guess, and more about a spirit of adventure- both for the characters and myself.

I've got some ideas for Microscope-Meets-Donjon/Fate:

Two kinds of scene: Open (we use Donjon for its built-in Statement system), and Dictated (Microscope traditionally makes this just a scene where the Creator defines exactly what happens and nobody RPs- I suggest, now, the Creator is the GM of the scene and states the relevant required characters, then the others make Fate characters to play in said scene).

We could also streamline and simplicity character creation so we don't get too stuck on ideas or time restraints.

Dictated Scenes: FATE:
Three aspects: High Concept, Trouble, Driving Force
Six Approaches: Two at +2, Two at +1; roll 3d6 and assign based on the number:
1. Mighty
2. Clever
3. Bold
4. Subtle
5. Swift
6. Wise

3 Stunts and 3 refresh:
Stunt:
A) I get a +2 bonus when I use [Approach] to [Action] when [Circumstance].
B) I can [Action] with [Approach] when [Circumstance].
C) When I [Action] with [Approach], I can spend a Fate Point to [Powerful Action or Effect].



Open Scenes: Donjon:
Determine Stats as normal (Mean of 3d6).
Determine Abilitiess (Main, three secondary, Health, Fortitude, Will) like Stats. If total of Abilities less than 16, increase to 16 with spends.
[Figure out a way to do some quick purchases/free looting to equip characters. Thoughts?]



For our Legacy FATE characters:
Build as normal FATE characters:
Aspects: High Concept, Trouble, Three Story Aspects (Each other Cultist writes a short one or two sentence story or scene for the character, and we respond with how we deal with/interact with/react to that scene or event, and then get an Aspect derived from it.)
Skills: Pyramid-style; one at +5, two at +4, three at +3, three at +2, and three at +1.
Stunts: 10 refresh, spendable how you wish.

Or something along those lines. Thoughts?

Eonas
2016-04-12, 03:37 PM
Donjon items are easy: you have 5 wealth+sociality to spend on items, and you can additionally trade wealth 1 for 1 value.

Sounds good, though. Let's do it.

JanusJones
2016-04-12, 05:52 PM
I need to buy all these systems now. Sheesh! Game thread? OOC?

cameronpants
2016-04-12, 06:24 PM
I need to buy all these systems now. Sheesh! Game thread? OOC?

I think the FATE systems are PWYW right now.

Plerumque
2016-04-12, 07:50 PM
So should we start by brainstorming a few different characters, or just settle on a single character, nation, or theme and go wild with it? Or are we starting with the Microscope inclusions/exclusions and bookends beforehand? I agree that it might not be super necessary, but if Cam or any of the rest of y'all have a certain vision for the tone of this game, I don't want to go stepping on it with my nation of salsa-dancing vampires or whatever.

cameronpants
2016-04-12, 08:35 PM
Let's bookend then start. No inclusion/exclusion list. Let's have a lighthearted game, but not downright comedy. Sure, salsa-dancing vampires; maybe they're obsessed with social standing and different levels of court. Maybe even the opium dens have certain procedures observed, and dance is the best way to express your capability with said standings, what with the supernatural grace those vampires possess.

So, even nearly-silly, comedic things can be connotated as semi-serious circumstances. Like Fillory (from the Magicians novels, not the show) or Narnia meets Kirby Superstar, then thrown into Middle Earth, and eventually Star Wars erupts from the seeds of it. Maybe a little Hitchhiker's Guide thrown in, but mixed with trace amounts of the thesis essay of a philosophy major.

We can always edit out things we think are sestabalizing the game, or ratchet them into place.

Suggested Start Phase:
The Gods have been locked away, the endless Titan Wars have ended. The stores of Knowledge the Old Ones possessed have been returned to the land; mortals search for answers... (LIGHT)

JanusJones
2016-04-12, 10:47 PM
Tarot:


The Inhuman: Child breath. Bone dry. Hungry, feedless, deep mouthed. The unknown.
Worm: Old finger, young stone. Worrier in the dark, lord of a thousand pardons.
Prince Perennial: Broad brow, sun cheek, prince petal. New bloom and dry leaves, here and gone.
Sister Salt: Fresh air, strange lands, lights in the deep. Dancer, drinker, wild abandon.
Brindlebraun: The limber lost. Oddments. King Clubfoot, limper, forgotten's fold, patch.

Some rough thoughts. Titans, maybe?

Have a thousand old character stories. Makes me wonder if I should mine them. My DRYH idea is a robo-call guy working for a con company that learned "sometimes THEY answer." Y'know, something ... else.

JanusJones
2016-04-12, 11:01 PM
1) Who are you?
I don't want your name, your SIN, or your place of birth; I want to know who you are, what you're like. And make it snappy.

You are a call-center con-artist who becomes whoever you're talking to.

2) Why are you important?
And don't give me that "I'm nobody, just a normal guy" crap. If you're reading this, doing this quiz, then you're ****ing special. Did you save someone's life? Discover a new breed of shrimp? Get a star named after you? Gimme one thing that's somewhat interesting about your otherwise empty life.
It's too hard to be people. People make you ... them. But you need people, because that's how you're ... how people ... are built. To need people. So you keep just the part you can manage, the voices - rich and deep, fat and round, screeching and hoarse and high and coughing and drunk high crazy happy needy lost.

3) What's important to you?
Is it money? A kid? Being the smartest in a room? And don't sugar coat it.
You need them - the voices. But anything more than that and you ... aren't you. You're them. You're barely there to begin with, so being them ... well, it's like being dead, but worse - being alive, but not there. You like being you. Well, more than you like being them ... especially ... them. The others.

4) What do you know?
What's something you could be considered an expert, master, or guru at? Something you're notably better at than the average Joe? Everyone's got something, even if it's "sleeping in" or "shirking responsibility".
Nobody else seems able to be everybody else. You've read some articles on empathy ... they didn't seem to know there was anyone like you.

5) What do you know?
Forget what you answered to the last four questions.
It means **** all.
You know something- a life-altering, reality shattering, capital 'T' Truth. What is it? How can you use it? Because They're after you now. And if you want to survive, you're gonna have to fight.
Some of the voices on the phone aren't ... people. They're something else. And now, so are you ... a bit. Sometimes. When you close your eyes, or start to sleep, or drift in a conversation. It's taking more and more focus to stay here ...

And the worst part is the need - because they need you. People. But not like people need people. And you're starting to need people that way, too ...

That's all for now. Funny how you (E!) suggested your surreal tendencies kept you "out" of genre tropes - I feel like it triggers a ton for me, really! I don't find tropes limiting - I guess I've gotten to a point where I think of them like tools. It's less about the tools restricting what you do, more how to use them to build things that you find fun.

Eonas
2016-04-12, 11:49 PM
That's all for now. Funny how you (E!) suggested your surreal tendencies kept you "out" of genre tropes - I feel like it triggers a ton for me, really! I don't find tropes limiting - I guess I've gotten to a point where I think of them like tools. It's less about the tools restricting what you do, more how to use them to build things that you find fun.

Did I? In this thread?

And yeah, I can see that - tropes as building blocks. But, by definition, they've all been done before time and time again. I don't want to do things that have been done before. Perhaps irrationally so.

I like the idea of tarot as chargen, by the way. Where'd you draw your cards from?

cameronpants
2016-04-13, 09:34 AM
I once saw a game on the boards here that required you to randomly generate 10 TVTropes pages and use five to design your character. Like, those tropes, paraphrased down, became abilities with ranks and everything. I like that idea- of using them as components of your character.

JanusJones
2016-04-13, 02:10 PM
Did I? In this thread?

And yeah, I can see that - tropes as building blocks. But, by definition, they've all been done before time and time again. I don't want to do things that have been done before. Perhaps irrationally so.

I like the idea of tarot as chargen, by the way. Where'd you draw your cards from?

Trying to do something "no one has done" feels like a trap: you end up doing something trite, precisely because "nobody's done it" has been ... well, done, no? Maybe it was P who said that; I just have been thinking through gaming, and I think trying to make it too much about being an "auteur" can be tough on the process. I mean, it's about FUN, and there's an element to gaming that involves playing with, re-inventing, goofing around with, satirizing, and otherwise tweaking the genres we're all nerdy about, no? Plus, anything we create is inherently a product of our aesthetic experiences, likes and dislikes, etc. - if I want to try for art, I suppose, I try a different medium than gaming.

But on that note, I guess my recent aesthetic impulse (outside the classroom, where I do feel I'm an auteur ... :smallwink:) has been to create game systems (hence Genre). I suppose it is a bit like teaching actually; instead of creating art that is primarily experiential, you create art that lets OTHERS create - the art of creating effective tools. The tools themselves - the system - has to make creation feel natural, intuitive, and easy, while still giving enough structure and guidance that it doesn't feel frustrating for a novice artist. It's been really fun and challenging trying to work out the kinks - how to make narrative central and incentivized by the system without putting too many limits or controls on it that would prevent creative expression.

You're all gaming "artists" in your own right, so really creating tools for you would be a totally different business; we don't really NEED any "new" tools, at this point, just to decide on a project and get working!

I just babbled those "Tarot" cards off - they're just some free association stuff off the top of the ol' noggin'. Not sure what they're good for, but hey - all this dark doom and twisted gloom has had an effect on my aesthetic, I guess!

Plerumque
2016-04-13, 03:48 PM
IMO, there are two pretty different initiatives getting a little conflated here. There's trying to be an auteur and create something entirely new, sure, which I would agree is largely oxymoronic. Artistically, we're for the most part defined by our influences. But the project of the surreal and strange and what, I think, Eonas and I are both attracted to, is usually something else, in the form of trying to subvert, reshape, or otherwise re-imagine the dominant tropes of the genre—or of life as a whole. That kind of playing with the reader/participant's expectations is pretty much exactly what you're describing, JJ. Rejecting tropes is just another way of engaging with them, it's just that the tropes' presence is implicit rather than explicit. Surrealism and satire are often inseparable. Or maybe I'm misreading you both.

JanusJones
2016-04-13, 10:06 PM
Different ways to play ... same game! Thanks for the clarity, P!

On that note ... I have a world or two I never fully fleshed out. What would y'all say to a theme, setting, style setup, then a collective game to map the details of the world and chronology? I have two ... incoming when I have a sec.

Feeling kind of ... GM-ey, I've realized. If y'all are down ...

Alternatively, surreal-up a system I'll cobble together? Very narrative, but genre-focused?

And ... what about using Tarot for a game? I had some thoughts for how to do it ...

Ah, I missed this, guys. It's the same old delightfully generative babble again! WOO!

Eonas
2016-04-15, 12:49 AM
Just want to weigh in on Plerumque's opinion, and say "that's what he said!" and "that's what I say too". Surrealism's fun. If you want to run a game I'll absolutely play it, JJ - with whatever system you cobble up.

Can I add a system constraint to your madcap gung-ho design endeavors, though? An iron chef ingredient? The system has to in some significant way incorporate exquisite cadaver (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exquisite_corpse) philosophy. GO!

Also, this is a tardy compliment, but bloody cool robo-call guy. It's so, so, Ligotti. Love it. Totally going to do this quiz as soon as I have time.

JanusJones
2016-04-17, 10:19 PM
Aww. Dunno your reference, but thanks!

Trying to figure out a PbP-appropriate system. Something more suited to fiction and collaboration than conflict resolution or tactical exchanges. Considering Tarot; exquisite corpse duly noted as Iron Designer element #1.

More to come when brain works. Have a new pdf of genre (http://genrecardgame.com); ask if interested!

Plerumque
2016-04-18, 06:13 PM
I'm a single-minded architect who thinks in numbers.
I have a sense of scale just a little bit different from everyone else’s. Big numbers feel big to me, and small ones small. When the numbers are even and smooth, it feels right, but when there’s gaps it doesn’t. There’s a wrongness about it, like the last puzzle piece that just doesn’t quite fit.
I need to create, to design, to take all the parts of the world that jut out and file them down, smooth them over. To take the wrong notes of life and architecture and coax them back to the harmony.
So I build. It’s the only thing I do, really, the only thing I can do. I slice out pieces of the earth and the sky and make them mine, even if in name they’re someone else’s. At least, I thought they were mine. Then I realized.
There are always extra doors.



Litter, something blown to me by the wind. Newsprint and singed edges. I can almost make out the story, something about a building collapse in town. I wonder if it was mine. It hardly matters anymore. I glance around at my surroundings.
I can’t live in the city anymore. I fled, taking a bedroll I stole from a friend (a door in her floor-length mirror, a door in her picture-window) and a pickup (an extra door wedged between the front and back) that ran out of gas halfway there, walking the rest of the way there. I’m reading this in some forest, hardly sylvan, don’t know the name. All bottle-shards and plastic bags and cigarette butts in the dirt. And there are still doors. Key-holes in the dying trees, knobs half-buried in the creek’s silt. I huddle in my sleeping bag and try to ignore the feel of the latch pressing into my back.
I didn’t get the benefit of a life-shattering moment to make a clean break between who I used to be and who I am now. My life didn’t topple over in a single instant; rather, it shuddered slowly apart, like a skyscraper built on a shoddy foundation. I started noticing doors, first in my own projects—doors where I hadn’t placed them, doors not accounted for in the materials ordered or the hours logged. Doors none of the workers remembered installing, but that none of them were surprised to see. Then I started seeing them other places. Doors I’d never seen before, in other buildings, then the streets of the city, then my office, then my home. Everywhere, all around me, like cancer cells dividing and proliferating and growing out of control.
I blink, and look back to what’s in my hands. There’s one word that stands out on the scrap of newspaper, like it’s the only thing in focus and everything else is tinged with blurriness. Part of the date: January.
And a time: 12:59.
And an address—I recognize it. Scratched with a penknife on one of the trees. One of the doors. I glance across the clearing at it. Is it safe? It’s not to code. But nothing’s to code anymore. I go in.


I don't know if I have much to contribute to the game design powwow, but a vague notion I had: What if each player's moves, instead of describing what goes right for the players, describe what goes wrong? No clue if it would work, but seems pretty different from the norm.

JanusJones
2016-04-18, 06:58 PM
Down to do whatever, but here are some generation thoughts on a narrative-fiction focused play by post. Actually, I'm half tempted to ask if you guys wouldn't mind doing this as sonnets - each a stanza in a larger epic poem. You'll see why!


FOOL'S ERRAND:
A Tarot-Based PbP System Concept
for Kicking About

These are interesting, chock full of meaning and ambiance, and a great place to get inspiration for adding to a narrative. Each suit has a meaning, each number has a meaning, and each card has meaning. To develop your story, you "draw" one and then build the narrative around whatever meaning of the card inspires you - whatever seems to play into the story, make for an interesting twist, etc.

To simulate a draw, I'll write up a list of all the cards, with links to each, and use the "numbered list" to organize them; for "drawing," you'll roll a die and compare with the result. You'll then cut the card you drew from the list in YOUR post, and the next person will use the updated list to "draw" (roll!) from.

You'll also be rolling 1d2, to see if the card comes up reversed (a roll of 2), which changes the meaning.

Some cards would stay in play in a spoiler - if a new Character, the Empress, were introduced, for instance, she'd stay in the "bank" of cards in play, along with the card for the Fool, h(is/er) Fate, and so on.

Think "epic poem," "movie," "comic," or "noir fiction." Should be something with some stylistic constraints; after all, with play by post, you can spend a bit of energy on form, no? I thought medieval flavor (think Spenser's Faerie Queene!) would be fun; iambic sonnets? We could do any rhyme scheme you liked, but one per post - it would echo the Tarot theme nicely, I thought, and give it a mythic flair!

This is our protagonist. My thought is that since this is PbP, the standard "you each have a character" style doesn't necessarily need to apply; that's more a "bunch of folks at the table playing a board game" assumption, no? Maybe not, but my thought: there is, like in a Tarot reading, only one "Fool" - the protagonist - but each of us plays a "Norn": one of the Fates who is weaving the "Skein" of his story. As Norns, we won't specifically "own" any characters - we're ALL the DMs and also the characters. We'll introduce new elements into the Fool's story, new characters, challenges, and settings, and try to guide him toward an appropriate Fate.

We'll draw a card at the beginning to represent the end of the Fool's journey - his or her Fate. We can discuss what it means and agree on a Fate, but I think it might be more fun/interesting to have it be open to interpretation by someone who wants to close the story. We could all have ideas of how it would go down, and maybe "make a play" to close the story. We could also do a "spread" - a given number of cards designed for certain meanings, like the "Celtic Cross," (http://www.psychic-revelation.com/reference/q_t/tarot/tarot_spreads/celtic_cross.html) but that might restrict us a bit too much (or, alternatively, inspire us - your guys call!).

Actually, I like the idea of the Celtic Cross - we could make it a quick game as an experiment, playing through 10 cards to tell a 10-stanza poem. Thoughts?

This is an idea I'm open to - I thought about maybe having all of us respond, OOC, to every new post. Each post could get a point of Shift for the poster based on the following: Aesthetic (how artistic/moving it is), Plot (how much it pushes or develops plot), Play (how well it uses the card in question), and Flow (how well it fits into the flow of the story). Shift could then be used for things like reversing a card already in play (flipping it from "good" to "bad" or the opposite), swapping cards in play, or even "buying" the rights to finish the Fate.

You can designate several things the card can do (if we're not going with the "do a Celtic Cross Reading" version, which might be better to test the idea out):

Noun (Person, Place, Thing): The card introduces a new element to the plot - a narratively IMPORTANT person, place, or thing.
Twist (Adjective or Adverb): Something that changes an existing element of play - a card that attaches to another, adding a dimension to it.
Time (Past, Present, Future): I'm thinking each post will add to the story - you'll choose whether your stanza for the poem describes the Fool's past, a present struggle, or a future fate (something close to the "end").

Eonas
2016-04-18, 10:55 PM
That is ****ing awesome. Let's do it.

Not keen on shift, though. The tarots will be restriction enough.

Kind of excited about doing sonnets, actually, because I'm a rubbish poet and want to improve.

JanusJones
2016-04-19, 03:57 PM
Here's what I was thinking. Threw this together. See what you think?


http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/images/fool.jpg

In Fool's Errand, a play by post RPG, a group of posters take on the role of Norns - invisible, faceless forces that guide the fate of mortals. In particular, one mortal - The Fool - who is embarking on an errand or quest. To weave the strands of the Fool's fate, the Norns lay cards and write his tale.

First, the group needs to select a medium and genre. Perhaps they're into crime fiction, or kung-fu action flick; maybe they're writing a supehero comic, or song lyrics and chords, or even drawing a series of internet art posts. The nature of PbP lends itself to a bit more preparation; if a tabletop RPG is more improv, Play By Post is better suited to collaborative fiction, no?

Once you've chosen a genre, choose a Tarot card spread. I've pre-selected the Celtic Cross (a basic, easy-to-use layout) and epic sonnets for this trial run. If anyone prefers something else, holler!

Each round, a player "draws" a card, consults where to play it in the Spread, and then uses the meanings of the card and the position it plays in telling the Fool's story to write a portion of it. He or she then "removes" that card from the "deck" (deletes it from the list), and the next player ("Norn") draws. Play proceeds until the entire spread's been dealt.

In the future, we might consider bigger spreads, or maybe "mini-spreads" for each position in the basic spread to allow for more detailed story-teling.
Draw: 1d78 (consult the chart below; whatever you draw, remove from the list and place in the "Spread," below.
Reversed?: 1d2 (1 = upright; 2 = reversed)

The Fool (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/fool.htm)
The Magician (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/magician.htm)
The High Priestess (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/highpriestess.htm)
The Empress (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/empress.htm)
The Emperor (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/emperor.htm)
The Hierophant (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/hierophant.htm)
The Lovers (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/lovers.htm)
The Chariot (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/chariot.htm)
Strength (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/strength.htm)
The Hermit (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/hermit.htm)
The Wheel of Fortune (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/wheeloffortune.htm)
Justice (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/justice.htm)
The Hanged Man (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/hangedman.htm)
Death (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/death.htm)
Temperance (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/temperance.htm)
The Devil (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/devil.htm)
The Tower (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/tower.htm)
The Star (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/star.htm)
The Moon (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/moon.htm)
The Sun (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/sun.htm)
Judgement (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/judgement.htm)
The World (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/world.htm)
Ace of Wands (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/aceofwands.htm)
Two of Wands (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/2ofwands.htm)
Three of Wands (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/3ofwands.htm)
Four of Wands (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/4ofwands.htm)
Five of Wands (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/5ofwands.htm)
Six of Wands (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/6ofwands.htm)
Seven of Wands (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/7ofwands.htm)
Eight of Wands (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/8ofwands.htm)
Nine of Wands (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/9ofwands.htm)
Ten of Wands (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/10ofwands.htm)
Page of Wands (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/pageofwands.htm)
Knight of Wands (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/knightofwands.htm)
Queen of Wands (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/queenofwands.htm)
King of Wands (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/kingofwands.htm)
Ace of Cups (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/aceofcups.htm)
Two of Cups (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/2ofcups.htm)
Three of Cups (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/3ofcups.htm)
Four of Cups (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/4ofcups.htm)
Five of Cups (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/5ofcups.htm)
Six of Cups (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/6ofcups.htm)
Seven of Cups (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/7ofcups.htm)
Eight of Cups (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/8ofcups.htm)
Nine of Cups (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/9ofcups.htm)
Ten of Cups (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/10ofcups.htm)
Page of Cups (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/pageofcups.htm)
Knight of Cups (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/knightofcups.htm)
Queen of Cups (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/queenofcups.htm)
King of Cups (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/kingofcups.htm)
Ace of Swords (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/aceofswords.htm)
Two of Swords (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/2ofswords.htm)
Three of Swords (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/3ofswords.htm)
Four of Swords (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/4ofswords.htm)
Five of Swords (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/5ofswords.htm)
Six of Swords (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/6ofswords.htm)
Seven of Swords (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/7ofswords.htm)
Eight of Swords (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/8ofswords.htm)
Nine of Swords (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/9ofswords.htm)
Ten of Swords (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/10ofswords.htm)
Page of Swords (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/pageofswords.htm)
Knight of Swords (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/knightofswords.htm)
Queen of Swords (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/queenofswords.htm)
King of Swords (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/kingofswords.htm)
Ace of Pentacles (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/aceofpents.htm)
Two of Pentacles (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/2ofpents.htm)
Three of Pentacles (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/3ofpents.htm)
Four of Pentacles (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/4ofpents.htm)
Five of Pentacles (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/5ofpents.htm)
Six of Pentacles (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/6ofpents.htm)
Seven of Pentacles (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/7ofpents.htm)
Eight of Pentacles (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/8ofpents.htm)
Nine of Pentacles (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/9ofpents.htm)
Ten of Pentacles (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/10ofpents.htm)
Page of Pentacles (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/pageofpents.htm)
Knight of Pentacles (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/knightofpents.htm)
Queen of Pentacles (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/queenofpents.htm)
King of Pentacles (http://www.tarot-card.net/tarot-cards/kingofpents.htm)


Celtic Cross Tarot Spread
Description: Apart from the three card or simple Tarot spreads this is probably the most often used spread in existence and has become a classic. Good for answering a specific question or giving a general reading in-depth.


http://www.psychic-revelation.com/images/tarot_spreads_celtic_cross.jpg

Cards:
Who is the querent?
What influences currently surround the querent?
What are the obstacles currently blocking the querent?
The recent past which formed the foundation for the current situation.
The distant past - issues the querent has had to deal with.
What does the querent wish to achieve?
What is before the querent? The future.
The querent's attitude or position on the matter.
How others see the querent.
The querent's hopes or fears.
The outcome.
Notes: I have used the 11 card version of the spread with the first card representing the querent and the second card being the influences etc.

Origin: A.E. Waite ©

First, roll a card and whether it's reversed.
Remove that card from the list and place it in the "Spread" spoiler. You'll want to copy and paste this stuff into every new post.
Then, check the Spread, above - we're going in order. You'll be writing the verse for the next card in the Spread, so start thinking of how you'd like to develop that aspect of the story.
Third, use the card's meanings to write a verse of the longer epic poem that suits the card's position in the spread.
Put your verse and the card's image into the Spread, titled correctly. Example: if you drew The Empress for Card 1, you'd have Card 1: The Querent as a centered title, under it the image of The Empress, then under that the verse or verses laying out/introducing the protagonist.

Suggestions: Check the meaning of the card, but also keep your eyes out - each number and trump (page, knight, queen, king) has a meaning, and each suit has a meaning and associated element. Feel free to get mythic about it - involve elements, make wands have overtures of the occult, and so on. You can spend as many verses as you like on developing your draw.

Characteristics of the Sonnet
All sonnets are lyrics of 14 lines, iambic (unstressed/stressed syllables – heartbeat), pentameter (five iambs to
a line). The two major forms of the sonnet are the Italian, also called the Petrarchan, and the English, also
called the Shakespearean.

But since we're doing an epic poem, why not mirror Spenser's Faerie Queene?

Spenserian Sonnet:
Developed by Edmund Spencer, this follows the quatrain/couplet division of the English sonnet, but with
overlapping rhymes: abab bcbc cdcd ee. Usually, Spenser’s volta is at the couplet. An example is sonnet 30:


a: MY love is like to ice, and I to fire;
b: how comes it then that this her cold so great
a: is not dissolv'd through my so hot desire,
b: but harder grows the more I her intreat?
b: Or how comes it that my exceeding heat
c: is not delayed by her heart frozen cold:
b: but that I burn much more in boiling sweat,
c: and feel my flames augmented manifold?
c: What more miraculous thing may be told
d: that fire which all things melts, should harden ice:
c: and ice which is congeal'd with senseless cold,
d: should kindle fire by wonderful device.
e: Such is the power of love in gentle mind,
e: that it can alter all the course of kind.

And oh damn - there are always extra doors?! AWESOME.

Plerumque
2016-04-19, 05:18 PM
Absolutely down for that, although I do think we shouldn't try and juggle two games at once just yet—the seething generative chaos is great (and truly impressive), but we always did have a very short attention span as a group. If we want to try the Microscope idea, maybe we should get an IC/OOC for that up or at least nail down the details before jumping ship to sonnets and tarot cards, as much as I like the idea. And I'm also a terrible poet, so don't worry, Eonas.

EDIT: Oh, and thanks, JJ. You're a hard act to follow, but I tried to do it justice.

cameronpants
2016-04-19, 06:19 PM
Normally I'd agree with you, P, that we need to keep it to one game at a time to get anything done. However, these two games are going to be pursued in entirely separate manners.

The Microscope game will, hopefully, be largely done in IRC, with threads used for in-between chats or for banter.

The Fool's Errand Tarot game will be pure PbP, and, I suspect, will have long spans of no posts- because it is turned based, and (at least) three of us are self-professed weak poets, it will be a short span between Sonnets. I know that I will be pretty hard on myself, and after two years of college-level poetry I should be.

All that being said; I will make up an OOC/IC thread combo for Microscope, and make a schedule for potential IRC times and begin a Bookend Debate.

JJ: I love it. At first I was a little concerned that I wouldn't be into it (the whole 'we don't have characters, just write about what happens to the Fool caught be off-white), but it's definitely growing on me.

P, JJ: I love the quiz responses. Gives me hope that I can develop that idea into a rockin' campaign someday.

Plerumque
2016-04-19, 06:41 PM
I hadn't realized that the idea was for Microscope to be run largely in IRC. I might have a tricky time with that, since I'm three hours ahead of both you and Janus, making nine-ish Pacific really feasible only on weekends. I can probably manage staying up a few hours past midnight once a week, though.

cameronpants
2016-04-19, 08:17 PM
That's a good point. Here I thought you and JJ were in the same state. Eonas and I are one or two hours apart- I'm pretty sure he's my Northern Brother, after all.

Well... we can at least get the bookends started, yes?

Eonas
2016-04-19, 09:49 PM
I'm generally good any night except Sunday. But of course during the summer I'll be out and about quite a bit.

JanusJones
2016-04-19, 10:22 PM
Seems like the DRYH quiz has been the most productive thing we've done, honestly! I'm kinda curious how all our guys will turn out! We don't have to do sonnets for fool's errand, it was just a starting thought. Glad it felt a little interesting, though! It's in the nature of the cult to do a few things at once, no? Part of me just wants to dm/run a pc in a quick n dirty crawl. Like roll up some Frank n K characters and just do stuff. But yeah, let's make a few threads and see what sticks, no? Like the old days!!

Cheers, y'all. Missed this.

Eonas
2016-04-19, 11:47 PM
No, I'm good for sonnets - if y'all are good to read my amateurish ramblings, I'm good to inflict them upon you. Set up the thing and I'll hop on!

Plerumque
2016-04-24, 08:00 PM
Speaking of the weird, I'm finding a truly unholy amount of glee in running my increasingly-surreal 3.5 game. It's probably cruel to subject the players to it (and to my purple prose) but oh so much fun. (And if you happen to be reading this, players, hi!)

I'm totally down for sonnets, though I tried writing one for practice and found that the closest I could get was ballad meter (and genuinely terrible ballad meter, too). Good to be forced out of our comfort zone, though, and non-free-verse poetry definitely qualifies.

I forgot how Microscope bookends work and I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but didn't Cam propose a beginning something like 'Mages make a remarkable discovery?' I'll also say that I think it would be interesting if we brought it full circle—low-fantasy world gains technology and then loses it again, through war or regression.

cameronpants
2016-04-24, 10:42 PM
I feel like I want to unify all the homebrew settings I've run games in to provide a cohesive universe.

Titans are quelled from the First World, and Magelords rise to lead Metahumanity into the first Age of Prosperity.

...many centuries and stories pass...

The Universe-wide Empire is shattered, and disparate worlds boil down into succession wars as technology fails across the cosmos due to the Return of the Titans. History is lost, and metahumanity enters another broiling age of darkness...

Plerumque
2016-04-25, 04:43 PM
I'm fine with that, but I think maybe it makes more sense to keep the Bookends a little shorter and more generic in case we change things later, so I would propose as a replacement something more along the lines of 'Humanity rises as the Titans fall' and 'Empire splinters with the return of the Titans.'

Eonas
2016-04-25, 05:53 PM
Cool. I'm good with that. We doing this via IRC then or?

What's happened to the wicked cool tarot-sonnet thing? Still a go on that?

cameronpants
2016-04-25, 06:26 PM
I suggest we do most of our discussion and RP here on the forums- two threads; one for banter and discussion, one for actual scenes. However, I also recommend using Google Docs for the actual Microscopian aspects of the game. One which we each have access to edit, so it will be much easier for us to insert events and scenes into the game. P mentioned that IRC won't work too effectively for him because time zones.

Another concept to toss around: we each have an 'iconic' character we will be making for the Microscope game. I suggest that they do not exist at the same time; rather, the entire timeline is separated into four sections, each one being the era of a specific Legend. For instance, the First Era, the Era of Pants, uses my character; each of them, for one reason or another, is alive and functional the entire Era, and it their death, power loss, or some other effective exeunt that lets rise the next Legend. So when Elias Do, First Magelord and Emperor of Agaea, has his power siphoned by the Black Rose cult so that they may seal him away, eternally, in a prison of ice and stone, the next Legend rises, and the Era of JJ begins. Just a thought. It could be neat.

JanusJones
2016-04-27, 02:53 PM
I need a copy of Microscope - I'll go buy one. What should I do?

Hankering for some chat. Holler back. I propose my "tarot" from earlier = Titans. They were, y'know, big n' godly. Maybe humanity is rebellious children who didn't like how the elders ate them n' stuff, or upstart slaves/creations, or maybe something more interesting, like parasites living on their bodies ... yeah, let's go with "no world, just titan corpses floating in space and rotting, and humanity is living on their remains."

That Belly of the Beast RPG infected my brain. Loved the idea!

EDIT: P, I'd love to game a bit. My brain needs to get kicked into gear. Sorry about not starting the Tarot game yet - I can, if y'all are down.

Plerumque
2016-04-27, 08:46 PM
Sure, JJ! Pop up a thread—it sounds like we're all game.

Love the idea of using Brindlebraun & co. as Titans. I really like the disjointed, strange feel of the cards you came up with, and the idea of Titans as things you can't describe without resorting to fragmented poetry. I'm still a little confused on where exactly we're starting, though—are we doing a palette, or characters, or the typical Microscope format, or what?

cameronpants
2016-04-27, 11:20 PM
I've got an idea if we want a no-prep game to get into the habit of RPing again. A quick little game a few friends and I developed for long car rides or road trips. It's simply called D&D Random. I have a spreadsheet that has just about every playable race and template in it, along with every published class (Base and PrC), as well as a ton of other random stuff. The idea is I come up with a quick scene and throw you guys into it. When you attempt to make a check or roll of any kind, all relevant stats are then generated randomly. This can create some interesting situations, where a character tries to use a skill, finds out he has four ranks, then tries another one and discovers he has 21 ranks, Skill Focus, and Skill Mastery with it. I will have chosen a few small secret goals that each of your personas had before losing their memories, and the game ends as soon as one of them occurs.

It could be fun, and could be just what we need to whet our appetites for PbP: Poetry and Prose edition. All in favour?

JanusJones
2016-04-28, 12:07 PM
Aye! Though I kinda just wanna build something, too. Could we roll random ... something, then build from there? Though amnesia sounds fun ...

I definitely just want something fun and low investment, for sure. I'll even run.

cameronpants
2016-04-28, 04:00 PM
I'm good either way, too. Why not pick a system, give us parameters, and then we can dive in? No taking two weeks to build characters.

If anyone is interested, I'm more than willing to start a Random D&D thread just for giggles. I'll make one tonight, post if you like.

EDIT: HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?486461-CoD-D-amp-D-RanDonjon-Edition&p=20721624)is the thread. Just drop in for some rolls and easy RP.

Edit 2: Things I wanna try:
-Wild Talents (ORE Super Powers)
-D&D 5th edition (barely any experience with it, would like to)
-A homebrew 3.5 challenge (lots of ideas here)

JanusJones
2016-04-29, 03:37 PM
How bout a build a class thing for HB? 3.5 is easy for me only 'cause I know it so well. Like to shake the world up a bit, though - make it iconic, but a different SORT of iconic. Like maybe something like Edgar Rice Burroughes style prehistoric world?

Doped out for the new thread! THANKS CAM!

cameronpants
2016-04-29, 04:05 PM
What's HB?

I like the idea of using chaoticshiny random generators to create a class name and short description of its strengths and weaknesses, designing it, then giving it to a random Cultist to play. Say, 10 level base class, power level along Swordsage or low-op Sorcerer.

I'll post your results tonight, JJ.

JanusJones
2016-04-29, 10:56 PM
Homebrew - love the idea. Some sort of random adjective/noun/verb style generator would be sweet! Total mystery as to the abilities until you level up - we design class and sheet, another cultist plays it.

Awesomesauce!

LOVING your random thread, Cam!

JanusJones
2016-04-30, 11:33 AM
Roll your class names!

adverb + verb (http://creativityforyou.com/combomaker2.html) + adjective + noun! (http://creativityforyou.com/combomaker.html)

And build!

My possible:
greet historically impossible freight

Sounds awesome!

cameronpants
2016-04-30, 11:57 AM
Transform Swiftly Allied Storm


Whaaaaaat. Cool.


Edit: This was my idea. Name (http://chaoticshiny.com/clmashupgen.php) and Function (http://chaoticshiny.com/classgen.php).

For example, after a single try and no retries, here's what I got:

Name:
Wasp Warlord

Function:
This class focuses on tactical skills, a specific physical skill and fighting multiple opponents and is also capable with offensive fighting. They are not very capable with nature skills, exotic weapons and wisdom. The class is restricted by philosophy. They typically use a specific type of magic. They draw power from natural talent.

That also sounds super fun.

Plerumque
2016-04-30, 12:48 PM
I got Charge Scarcely Able Preoccupation. :smallconfused:

And for Cam's, I got the Cyberserker: This class is best at magical ranged combat and dealing with metaphysical entities. They have no talent for aiding allies, a specific social skill, battlefield control and exotic weapons. They typically use one of several specific types of magic. Certain subclasses are associated with certain philosophies.

Of course, I also have the design chops of a thousand chimpanzees on typewriters.

cameronpants
2016-04-30, 02:09 PM
I'm thinking these classes are slotted into the future of our Microscope game, right when the Infosphere goes wireless and new types of magitech are introduced to the fringes of the galaxy. The cyberserker fuses etherealness with digitization and becomes a holy force against the infringing computarcane viruses that roam the slices between the digital world and the ethereal realm. The Wasp Warlord, of course, uses nanotechnology to varying degrees.

P, we're probably the best people on the web to do design work with. All four of us are supportive, wholesome, and have strong desires for the others' ideas to succeed and come to fruition. Think of it like practice and it'll be cake.

I've got the skeleton planned out for the Storm Breather, evoked by the "Transform Swiftly Allied Storm"" result. I have ideas for the Wasp Warlord, but if we go neo-noir cyberpunk then I have to re-evaluate.

EDIT: This whole 'building for each other' idea has got me thinking. Would you guys play a short one to three scene Wild Talents game with characters I designed for you? I've designed and built in the system for years but never ran nor played it. I figure with builds done and having the game just start would help it actually happen. Thoughts? You guys could throw power ideas or concepts at me and I could make them happen, or at least a close approximation.

Eonas
2016-04-30, 06:39 PM
I like the idea of one-to-three scene games.

Impressionistic, a bit. And very ADHD, which is my jam.

Indirectly Separate Angry Sanctuary. That's, er. I prefer Psiscout: This class predominantly features wisdom, speedy movement, endurance and magical melee combat and is also capable with healing. They are not very capable with charisma and crafting skills. They draw power from the natural world. They are best known for a specific skill.

That's bloody fun. I'd play that. Or Cam's wild talents thing. I'd play that too.

JanusJones
2016-05-01, 09:55 AM
I'm in for ALL of it.

ALL OF IT!

Missed this!

Oh, and on that note, I already got my class idea - and I LOVE the words I got! The "historically greeting impossible freight" class is the school of magic that was developed by the right honorable Tenser, the Planar Ordering of Relative Tension Energy Resonance school - colloquially known as the Poe quest to transporters!

Yep! It's a whole school of magic devoted to moving freight - impossible freight! In the same way it stands to reason we've developed ever-emerging technological advances in the quest to transport goods, so magic would develop - if you're only able to shift huge and heavy loads through space, time, and dimension with ridiculously high-level spells, basic commerce becomes untenable. As magic refined itself, casters went from awkward generalists - handymen with only a working knowledge of the schools who used more raw magic than necessary to get big, but temporary, effects - to specialists in each field, exploring the finer points of how to use magic in tenable, extended, everyday ways to improve mastery of the universe.

Enter the PORTERs.

They begin by mastering the first discovery of their founder: the floating disc. They have, of course, refined the art, and even a low-level porter can always find work with a permanent floating disc for shifting weight. More reliable than a beast of burden or even a cart, and the capacity is immense - hire a porter and they'll get it there!

As they grow in skill and knowledge, they can create more and larger discs, command their discs' movement with less effort, levitate and fly said discs, form environmentally sealed container above them to prevent damage in transit, even enable high speeds and ethereality to move freight, quite literally, to "the other side of the world" ... in a straight line. Teleportation using the discs is of course a final secret.

This class would get moveable tenser's discs to play with. They could be used to bullrush and knockdown in combat, and would grow stronger, faster, more numerous/larger (I'm imagining being able to choose between four 5 square platforms or one large, with the large having the advantage of a size bonus to bull rush) as the class grew. They'd first be able to levitate the disc they stand on, then use flight/overland flight (I'm imagining a second plane of magic used as a sort of sail!). Eventually, they could make a bubble atop the disc that would protect with endure elements, resist planar effects, maybe even a force wall, and go ethereal or teleport their cargo as well. They'd start out surfing around on discs, and end up piloting massive flying magic battleships!

BOOM!

cameronpants
2016-05-01, 01:51 PM
Mini-campaign idea for these homebrewed magitech classes: four crewmembers of the U.G.A. Horizon, a cutting-edge scout and probe ship in the furthest reaches of the galaxy. The PORTER, the Anomaly Engineer (combining the Wasp Warlord and the Transform Swiftly Allied Storm), the Psiscout, and the Cyberserker. Their captain just perished in a freak accident, and the first mate has been captured while on a planet-side mission. Without the access codes, the ship will power-down until it is reactivated by United Greyhawk Command- but the ship's inside the commjam of a rogue frigate of spacers. Do they mount a mission to save the first mate? Do they use the little time they have trying to destroy the spacers' jamming signal?

JJ: I love the class. It's... perfect. I like the idea that the classes we're building are much less combat focused than traditional d20 classes, and have many useful functions out of combat.

The Anomaly Engineer will specialize in storms, senses, microbots/nanotech, and superscience investigative abilities. Like an entropomancer void disciple investigator.

Plerumque
2016-05-01, 07:32 PM
That random class generator is fun. I tried it a few more times and got 'Hydro-Rogue of Style and Terror,' 'Laser-Artificer-Psion of Order and Envy,' 'Mirror Thief of Lust,' 'Mobius Mage of Memory,' 'Vanity Warlock,' and 'Angel Butcher.'

...That got real dark real fast.

Eonas
2016-05-01, 07:51 PM
So what is this, level 6 gestalt?

cameronpants
2016-05-01, 07:59 PM
So what is this, level 6 gestalt?

Is what level 6 gestalt?

Eonas
2016-05-01, 08:21 PM
The sexy random-class 3.5 magitech game.

cameronpants
2016-05-01, 08:39 PM
The sexy random-class 3.5 magitech game.

We should first design the classes. I suggest 10- level base classes. They should focus on non- combat functions more than traditional base classes. Once they're made, we randomize who plays which class. We make 7th level gestalt characters, and the campaign takes us to 10th so we can play all levels. I have plenty of ideas for this, so I can run it, or maybe whoever's interested can take turns running.

Yea. That's nice.

JanusJones
2016-05-01, 09:59 PM
Only 10? But the porter is 20, easy!

I'll design all 20, and we'll see where it all leads!

Angel butcher!!!

cameronpants
2016-05-02, 12:29 PM
Only 10? But the porter is 20, easy!

I'll design all 20, and we'll see where it all leads!

Angel butcher!!!

While true, I think a 10 level will be easier for the less experienced or less inclined of us. If we all agree, we can totally do a full 20 levels, though I'd prefer to do a single 10 level base class and two 10 level prestige classes that further specialize.

My design hat is on for this one. I've got a system that combines Incarnum with different token pools to make a fun, quick, effective resource management system for in-game fun. Also, I feel we can steal some general ideas from the amazing Gramarie work here on the boards. Just a thought.

Ooh, maybe Gramarie is the other side of our magitech gestalt characters?

JanusJones
2016-05-02, 12:59 PM
Meh - I don't know from other folks' homebrew - I'm doing my OWN thing. Some thoughts I scribbled on my phone:

Control disc you ride as a free action
Spellcraft to gain control of unwilling porters discs
Grant control to willing porter
Mounted combat, mounted archery
Improved bull rush, knockback
Improved trip
Spell Effects for Discs:

Endure elements
Force wall
Overland flight
Flight
Levitation
Force wall
Resist planar effects
Water breathing
Freedom of movement
Reverse gravity
Etherealness



2 discs per level
Spend a disc to apply an effect to another
You don't have to spend one until you want to
You can cover an existing disc into an effect, but once it becomes an effect, it cannot be used as a disc
Discs resist dispelling
Scaling effects:

Speed of disc
Action to control disc you aren't riding (starts as standard to control all other discs, goes to move, then swift, then free)
Discs can be set to follow you for no cost (train of discs possible)

Plerumque
2016-05-02, 08:25 PM
Some ideas:

Cyberserker - This seems fairly straightforward thematically. Probably a class focused on insanity - viruses and the like, over the network. Corrupts their own code in order to increase their speed, but cognition and intelligibility suffers (overclocking themselves, essentially). Uses malware to debuff + disable opponents, take remote control of devices, spy on others.

Mirror Thief of Lust - I can't remember what that race was that could travel through mirrors, but this could be a class-length version of that. Based around casing a joint and breaking and entering. At first, can only see through mirrors, then communicate through them, then step through them. Maybe can steal reflections of things? Not sure where the lust would come in. Perhaps they play at the whole 'I'm you... the perfect you, the you of your dreams,' bit.

Mobius Mage of Memory - Exploits the circular nature of time à la Nietzsche—over the course of the class, expands their own consciousness to the point where they see the past and the future as two sides of the same coin. Focused on knowledge. I'm thinking maybe some sort of reincarnation mechanic where they can make checks to remember things their past or future selves would have known, but only things that would be appropriate for Knowledge checks (i.e. no 'how will this fight turn out?').

Vanity Warlock - Someone who doesn't feel at home in their own skin, and wants to try out as many others as possible. Based around stealing others' faces, knowledge, and skills. Heavily focused on social interactions. The kind of ability I'm envisioning would have very little combat applications (no stealing magic, feats, class abilities, etc.), and make it very difficult to maintain for long enough to pull off a long con, but would be used mostly for causing as much confusion as possible in the short term and learning other people's secrets.

Angel Butcher - As much as I love the implications that spring to mind, sacrifice mechanics rarely work all that well, so I'm thinking something more along the lines of celestial salvage. Sinner trying to save themselves from hell (without having to stop sinning) by grafting bits of holiness to themselves, maybe. Could borrow some mechanics from the Geomancer's Drift, or the Fleshwarper or whatever class it was that got a symbiotic familiar. Probably more interesting conceptually than mechanically.

cameronpants
2016-05-02, 09:26 PM
Some ideas:

Cyberserker - This seems fairly straightforward thematically. Probably a class focused on insanity - viruses and the like, over the network. Corrupts their own code in order to increase their speed, but cognition and intelligibility suffers (overclocking themselves, essentially). Uses malware to debuff + disable opponents, take remote control of devices, spy on others.

Mirror Thief of Lust - I can't remember what that race was that could travel through mirrors, but this could be a class-length version of that. Based around casing a joint and breaking and entering. At first, can only see through mirrors, then communicate through them, then step through them. Maybe can steal reflections of things? Not sure where the lust would come in. Perhaps they play at the whole 'I'm you... the perfect you, the you of your dreams,' bit.

Mobius Mage of Memory - Exploits the circular nature of time à la Nietzsche—over the course of the class, expands their own consciousness to the point where they see the past and the future as two sides of the same coin. Focused on knowledge. I'm thinking maybe some sort of reincarnation mechanic where they can make checks to remember things their past or future selves would have known, but only things that would be appropriate for Knowledge checks (i.e. no 'how will this fight turn out?').

Vanity Warlock - Someone who doesn't feel at home in their own skin, and wants to try out as many others as possible. Based around stealing others' faces, knowledge, and skills. Heavily focused on social interactions. The kind of ability I'm envisioning would have very little combat applications (no stealing magic, feats, class abilities, etc.), and make it very difficult to maintain for long enough to pull off a long con, but would be used mostly for causing as much confusion as possible in the short term and learning other people's secrets.

Angel Butcher - As much as I love the implications that spring to mind, sacrifice mechanics rarely work all that well, so I'm thinking something more along the lines of celestial salvage. Sinner trying to save themselves from hell (without having to stop sinning) by grafting bits of holiness to themselves, maybe. Could borrow some mechanics from the Geomancer's Drift, or the Fleshwarper or whatever class it was that got a symbiotic familiar. Probably more interesting conceptually than mechanically.

Those are great. When I first saw Angel Butcher I envisioned it more like A.N.G.E.L. Butcher; A.N.G.E.L. being a single-person magimech combat suit. Iron Man meets Mechwarrior meets Synthesist (PF Summoner Archetype) or Aegis. 'Butcher' being his rank, after Vanquisher and before Dreadblade.

Plerumque
2016-05-03, 03:56 PM
Meh. There have been magitech-armor classes designed already far better than I could manage. I'd rather attempt something that I, at least, haven't seen before. Which one, though? Suggestions?

cameronpants
2016-05-04, 02:26 AM
You bring up a good point, P. Aside from JJ's Porter, all our ideas have already been done (and done well at that), or cam be recreated by using Gramarie. Should we be homebrewing in 3.5 at all? There's so much amazing stuff out there made by fans already.

Just a thought.

Eonas
2016-05-04, 02:02 PM
Just for kicks, I got Blade Druid of Nightmares and Despair, Dimensional Zealot of Confusion, Lightning Scout of Air, Pentacle Scholar of Rebirth and Greed, Storm Barbarian of Treachery, Telemagister of Innocence, and Spider Chain Witch-Warden of Wind
Neutrality.

SO MUCH AWESOME.

I don't want to homebrew. Just wanna build and play!

JanusJones
2016-05-04, 03:01 PM
I'm gonna a-men that. How about we just DO something? Like hell, re-boot Adventurer's Guild (I liked that one) or Tower Climb or ANYTHING we've done already?

Porter (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1w-DqPg6oi1SRc2Yay1QqNJC00zyHhBACoSkwAXZwwrM/edit#gid=0), by the by, is AWESOME. I did the spell list! He's gonna be a spontaneous caster (REALLY limited list), with 2 discs per level; give UP a disc to make certain spells persistent on his disc (ONLY his disc!). Merge discs to make'em larger, effects stay; split for individual discs, only one keeps effects. Grant control to other people (everybody gets a magical hoverboard!), or use YOUR actions to move'em (you spend YOUR actions so other people don't HAVE to!).

I'm loving the concept.

cameronpants
2016-05-04, 03:32 PM
Those are great.

Maybe we should branch out and decide on/devise up a different system than d20? Something that doesn't require vast amounts of homebrew to make a Spider Chain Witch-Warden of Wind and Neutrality and actually have it do stuff somewhat efficiently. I have very little experience with GURPS, but if we agree on skill lists and other factors it could serve us well.
What do you all think?

Edit: wrote before I saw JJ's post. I'd love to revisit Tower Climb. I only vaguely remember Adventurer's Guild, but would still enjoy it.

Plerumque
2016-05-04, 05:48 PM
I'd like to veto the notion of GURPS, please. I'm not willing to spend that much time to learn a system legendary for being mechanically complicated, and very suspicious of anything that claims that kind of investment is necessary to tell a good story. You want a flexible system where you can build a Spider Neutral Chain-Witch Wind or whatever, FATE or FUDGE or Donjon or Burning Wheel or some freeform-adjacent system. I appreciate the jigsaw-puzzle pleasure of chargen and combat, but it's rarely what I'm interested in these days.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't be into a Tower Climb or Adventurer's Guild reboot; I definitely could be, although tbh I found Planar Junction and Shadow War more conceptually and Name This Campaign more mechanically interesting. I could also GM, though, and it might be easier for me to get back in the swing of that (though I'll confess that I never bothered learning how to create encounters beyond finding roughly appropriate numbers for HP and saves and cherrypicking a couple interesting special abilities, then winging everything else). Or what about that old dungeon we were building, the Temple of the Leech Queen? What if we rolled up a couple quick characters and took 'em through that?

JanusJones
2016-05-04, 06:28 PM
Ooooh! I'll run leech queen; I think I have enough mods to the original script you should be kept on your toes. Incoming!

Eonas
2016-05-04, 08:18 PM
Sure. Let's do Leech Queen. I am, as ever, in the mood for ****ed-up. Should we try our random classes? Is there any particular mood you're going for? What level/what's the chargen info?

JanusJones
2016-05-04, 08:32 PM
You'll be playing pre gen characters I designed for some friends. Incoming.

cameronpants
2016-05-04, 09:45 PM
We can agree to disagree about GURPs. GURPs is only as complicated as you allow it to be. Every ruleset is opinion- we include what we want and ignore the rest. It's basically a 'roll 3d6, hope for lower than your skill' across every situation, from sneaking to hacking to magic to brushing your teeth. The people who claim it's a mechanical monstrosity were gung-ho with 1st edition and wanted every little mechanical oddity in their games. That's not how it was designed to be played. Even in its own introduction it warns against that.

When it comes to PCing, I'd like to avoid the really narrative, fast-and-loose systems like Donjon and FATE (though our idea for Microscope scenes to use those systems still appeals to me). For PCing, I'd like something with more substance. As a GM I'm a lot more open to those freeform-adjacent systems.

The Leech Queen... I vaguely remember that, too. I don't think I helped towards designing any of it though. And pregens are my favourite. Taking something somebody else made and making it my own is almost nearly as fun as building a character myself. Sometimes more so.

JanusJones
2016-05-05, 12:33 AM
Temple of the Leech Queen is my baby. A "standard" dungeon crawl, with flavor.

Enjoy! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?487111-CoD-Temple-of-the-Leech-Queen)

Plerumque
2016-05-05, 06:53 AM
Fair enough about GURPS. Honestly I don't know that much about it, just that it's supposed to be in line with HERO and M&M, both of which have far too complex character generation for my taste right now. Maybe there's some medium? Lamentations of the Flame Princess is intended to be pretty modular and easy to tack things on to, IIRC.

Psyched for Leech Queen!

Eonas
2016-05-05, 02:30 PM
Definitely picking up the Dark Elf. Definitely.

GURPS, while simple, is pretty classically simulationist if you subscribe to that sort of model (which is, like, the polar opposite of what we're going for), and even if you don't, I've always found it rather uninspiring. So I'm definitely happy with the lack-o-gurps thing.

Leech Queen characters are ****ing cool, though. What's the karma thing? How does Sapphire Nightmare Blade work if I don't have a concentration skill? What's the connection/difference between Spot and Perception (since perception contains See in its description)? Tumble I presume is no longer a thing? What's my maneuver recovery mechanic?

Pumped about both games. RanDonjon is so bizarre and disorienting that I can't possibly not love it, and obviously the Leech Queen's going to be pretty fun.

JanusJones
2016-05-05, 04:15 PM
Just Perception - no Spot. Just a mistake. For Sapphire Nightmare Blade, I dunno, use Sleight of Hand, why not? The idea was to make easy to play, intuitive characters which a bunch of my friends who had never played before could use without going crazy.

Good and Bad Karma ... hmmm ... originally, these were "dungeons of drinking" characters, and those were "assign a drink if you" and "take a drink if you don't." Now, let's call it a big pile of +1s YOU can use and -1s I can use to beat you up with. They were a quick, easy way to give some character direction - each was based on being the opposite of the person playing them.

Tumble is Acrobatics. Recover maneuvers like a Warblade, maybe? Nah, a Crusader. They get a better deal, and there ain't nuffin' broken about maneuvers. Again, I wanted these characters simple, cinematic, and cool. For equipment, just go ahead and write up a reasonable list, or better yet, we can just hand-wave it; whatever you want that isn't too mechanical (armor and weapons), just assume you have it, mention it in game (mundane stuff).

Eonas
2016-05-05, 05:46 PM
Maybe a good karma point can be spent to +1 a roll or state a minor fact about the scene without having to succeed on our specific type of knowledge roll (the jailer really likes roses) and a bad karma point can be spent to +1 a monster's roll or -2 a PC's roll? Dunno - just an idea.

That all sounds excellent. Big fan of the new skill list.

I've just started a shopping list for Scarlett Skye. Of course my vampy dark elf has to be called something ridiculous and porn-star-y. Drizzt just doesn't sound like sex appeal.
A bunch of daggers to throw at people.
A whip! Probably thoroughly mechanically useless, but the flavor's so fun that I want one anyway. Which reminds me. Sometime before I die I definitely want to make a character that makes plausible use of whips and that doesn't suck.
A bag of tricks?
A hand of the mage?
Maybe, like, a ring of prestidigitation or something, since prestidigitation is so damn fun?

And now allow me to go pore through various item lists in search of something cool and vampy.

cameronpants
2016-05-05, 08:26 PM
I'm naturally drawn to the gnome scholar, so I think I'll go for the proselytizing priest instead.

Brother Charlemagne Strom, Faithful of Roan, Lord of Legends and Heroes' Brawn. He worships the God of Heroes. Valor, strength, song, and mirth. Taking the fight to the Monsters, restoring hope and faith to the downtrodden one empty quest at a time.

He would have the standard adventurer's kit, plus a bevy of random items that were featured in fables and myths of ancient heroes.

Didn't check the thread before posting. I thought we were gonna call them OOC first. Oh well.

Eonas
2016-05-05, 08:40 PM
We do indeed call them OOC, I believe - but we're to post IC ASAP. I'll do so as soon as I find out which one P's into.

EDIT: nevermind- just checked the IC myself. Duh.

Also, P, I can't get over how Sylvia Legris-y your RanDonjon prose is. Very good, very good.

Plerumque
2016-05-05, 09:07 PM
Oh whoops. I was reading the pregens in a hurry this morning and misread claiming OOC as claiming by posting IC. Happy to hand over the reins of the priest to you, Cam, as it seems rather ungentlemanly of me in perspective, and I'll be happy with the scholar as well (or even the brute—step outside my own comfort zone).

And thanks, E, though I feel like since I haven't spent even a single post lavishly describing the cervical vertebrae of a hummingbird, I don't qualify for the comparison.

cameronpants
2016-05-05, 09:53 PM
No, no, I insist. You've gone in a fantastic direction so far. I'll take the brute this time (though he has the same HP as the Cleric, but has a higher Con? What's that about?)

Post for Leech and RanDonjon coming tonight after kid bedtimes.

Edit: I can't really get into the Brute. Mechanically, he's point and click (Pounce is useless, very short rage rounds also limiting in a game like this). I guess I will try my hand at the Scholar after all.

JanusJones
2016-05-06, 06:05 AM
I'll play the thug! HP could be rolls. I'll recalculate.

Eonas
2016-05-07, 03:46 AM
Too tired to write right now. Will post in Leech Queen tomorrow morning hopefully.

JanusJones
2016-05-07, 06:45 AM
Pounce isn't useless, btw, Cam - Rage = Whirling Frenzy, and rounds = LOTS of rounds. Plus. no fatigue, cause he's Tireless, so no drawbacks to raging. Plus Scent is the coolest RP ability EVAR, sez' me. :smallcool:

cameronpants
2016-05-07, 04:50 PM
Pounce isn't useless, btw, Cam - Rage = Whirling Frenzy, and rounds = LOTS of rounds. Plus. no fatigue, cause he's Tireless, so no drawbacks to raging. Plus Scent is the coolest RP ability EVAR, sez' me. :smallcool:

Well, now, see, there we go. If I was going to remain with him I would have asked for Whirling Frenzy instead of normal Rage. And with only 8 rounds of rage, how is that lots of rounds? Is that once per day at 8 rounds a la 3.5, or 8 rounds divided over the course of a day, a la PF? Or is it neither, and once per encounter he can rage? It's all a bit unclear. Scent is pretty dang awesome.

JanusJones
2016-05-07, 07:39 PM
Rage 1/day/level, I figure. Thought he had the Extra Rage feat, too. It's not meant to be a declarative build, just an iconic, useful, intuitive one; if it makes sense, we'll hand-wave it in.

Post up!

JanusJones
2016-05-09, 07:24 AM
Poke!

C'mon, kids - I been doing my DM duty! :smallsmile:

Plerumque
2016-05-15, 08:17 PM
So does anyone else have a wishlist for Santa, or should we just skip to travel/arrival?

JanusJones
2016-05-16, 10:17 AM
I can push. Wasn't sure if it was just being AFK or lack of motive! Wanted to give you a chance. Feel free, if'n you like, to re-tool characters if that'll help you get into it. E, you can make some weird tentacly dud/ette, or whatever floats people's boats!

I want to go atmospheric. I'm actually gonna try to write this for use in the "module," so I'll be shooting, in posts, for a quick n' dirty but fiction-forward approach. I'd love for you guys to get into characters, talk with people, explore. I work best as a reactive DM, and I have a bunch of story for you (building the feel!) before you're actually hip-deep in awful (which is COMING, baby!).

Cheers!

Eonas
2016-05-17, 03:18 PM
Low motivation for roleplaying in general. Markov chains have been consuming most of my interest.

But I'm good to play! What am I being waited on for?

Plerumque
2016-05-17, 06:55 PM
Oh you nerd. I think we just want to make sure you're done with this scene, so we can move on, but JJ may have wheels within wheels of which I am unaware.

Eonas
2016-05-18, 12:22 AM
Yup, feel free to move on and forward. I've nothing really to say in this scene.

Presumably I'm also up for RanDonjon?

cameronpants
2016-05-19, 11:28 PM
I could probably post for RanDonjon, just had a really busy week and a half. After this weekend things should calm back down.

As soon as I'm back to sleeping more than four hours a night I can probably think straight enough for a post.

Plerumque
2016-05-21, 09:57 PM
So just to clarify, do we get good karma for doing the things that say 'bad karma if you don't' on our sheets? Cause I didn't heal anyone or cause any conversions (though who knows about the butler), but I guess I got 2 karma anyway?

JanusJones
2016-05-21, 11:09 PM
You got karma for condescending to folks. Was that "get bad karma if you don't?" My bad.

I think, then, just bad karma for the gnome. :smallsmile:

I;ll just be running it by ear. Lemme know if you think something's off. Hoping we can go into deeper character detail, though; if you wanna re-tool before we get too far in, go ahead and rebuild however you want. Really - HOWEVER. The key is personality you dig - something you can play. This is gonna get psychological.

Cheers!

Plerumque
2016-06-02, 09:06 PM
Whoops, left out the slash. 1d20+5

JanusJones
2016-06-02, 09:10 PM
Heh. Try again!

Plerumque
2016-06-02, 09:26 PM
Okay, been a while. Fort Save: 1d20+5.

What?

Plerumque
2016-06-02, 09:31 PM
Fourth time's the charm?

d20+5

Plerumque
2016-06-02, 10:16 PM
Okay, someone just roll for me. I don't know what's going on.

(One more try: 1d20+5.)

Eonas
2016-06-03, 11:09 AM
Ah! The cult! In midterm craziness I'd forgotten all about roleplaying.

Allow me to make a post tomorrow. Today's really really gnarly.

Eonas
2016-06-03, 11:11 AM
Attempt: 1d20+5.

Does this work?

What the hell? There is some Lovecraft-level weirdness at work here.

Plerumque
2016-06-03, 03:38 PM
It seems to work in the dice subforum. Maybe they restricted it? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490187-CoD-Temple-of-the-Leech-Queen-Rolls&p=20851978#post20851978

Eonas
2016-06-15, 03:07 PM
Post written - at long last!

Hey, you guys want to do an IRC game sometime this summer? I'm in the mood for something faster-paced; the long, dark winters of the soul between posts do dampen my enthusiasm for my character.

And P, I miss our chats on surrealism and philosophy and things! Let's go and have another sometime soon.

Plerumque
2016-06-15, 04:18 PM
Sure, always game for play or talk or whatever. I also got a new phone that can text the Great Frozen North, so if you want you can message me - 828-545-6276.

In other news, I find it amusing that Borscht and Scarlett are both predominately languorous in this scene, and propose a languorous-off.

Eonas
2016-06-15, 04:57 PM
You out of classes, then? Let's meet at GameSurge/#CultOfDonjon sometime. Like old times.

Plerumque
2016-06-20, 03:18 PM
As I recall, it was #DonjonCult, but I'll keep checking both.

By the way, Janus, it okay if I move on to the morning? Rhetorical question, since I'm posting now and you don't appear to be online.