PDA

View Full Version : The Martial Man/Woman - a Class in Developement



GrayDeath
2016-03-12, 12:30 PM
Hello y`all!


I`d like your feedback on a class we (myself and the upcoming GM) designed for our next Campaign.

First things first: It is aimed to be High T4, low T3, but the most important part is for it to fit its intended fluff "Like a glove".

Now which fluff is that, you might ask?

That of the classic "Strong, tough Man/Woman with martial Abilities that is not part of any established Forms/Schools of Battle".
Hence no Fighter or similarly militaristic theme.
The simple Man, wielding simple weapons and kicking butt.
The closest in overall direction would be the Monk, but this is the "raw strength/Power" attempt at it.

It is supposed to be roughly as good at fighting as any mainly Combat oriented, purely mundane Class, but tougher, harder hitting and more flexible.

It is intended for pathfinder Use primarly, but might work for 3.5 as well.

Most important: Fluff of “strong Man/Woman with no supernatural Powers but Will and Training” is paramount.

Feedback I do NOT want: Not needed, its not a caster so scrap it, and similar comments.
Feedback I DO want: everything else, but most importantly help in streamlining/defining its feats, progression, and overall placing in the Tiers.


For now lets call it "Tough Guy".


Basics:
Alignment: Any, though most tend towards some form of Neutrality or Order in it.
Hitdie: D12
Saves: all high
BAB: Full
Skillpts: 4+IntMod
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Craft (any one), Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (Martial Arts and one more), Perception.
Armor: Light
Weapon proficiencies: All Simple Weapons and Unarmed.


Choose Path (Bonuses only apply while not multiclassing with any class that grants Spells!) at Level 1:
:
Young (requires Age maximal Adult): add natural Dexterity Bonus or Level/3 (whichever is more) to Initiative and Dodge AC.
At Level 11 also adds Natural Dex Bonus to Crit Confirmation Rolls.
At Level 20 Now adds Double the natural Dex Bonus to Initiative and Dodge AC.

or

Old (requires Age Minimal Adult): Add Wisdom Bonus to AC and ignore negative Age Modifiers.
At Level 11 adds Wisdom Bonus to Damage Rolls.
At Level 20 Adds Natural Wisdom Bonus to Damage Resistance.

Path Advantages are lost while wearing more than light Armor or using Shields.


Level 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Toughness, Path-Ability.
[I]Perfect Control: may cause nonlethal Damage whenever he wants, without any maluses.

Level 2: Physical Surge: once per Day per Level/2 may increase one physical Attribute by 4 for 1 Minute.

Level 3: Armor Skin 1: +1 natural AC Bonus.
Strong Arm: Adds +1 Damage to all Damage Rolls.

Level 4: Weapon of Choice:
Choose one: Weapon Focus Unarmed or Weapon Focus “Chosen Weapon Type” (see profficiencies).
If Unarmed: increases his unarmed Damage as if all his Levels were Monk levels
If Weapon Category (like Fighter, may ONLY be applied to CLass Weapons!): Gains Weapon Specialization for that Weapon Cat. at Level 5, Greater Weapon Focus at level 9 and Greater Weapon Specialization at level 13. Also always considers that Weapons Crit Range as one Higher.

Level 5: Toughened by Training: Gains DR 1/3 his level in this Class (round down).
"Big Guy": may use his Strength Bonus instead of Charisma for purposes of Intimidation.

Level 6: Speed Surge: Once per Day per Level of this Class may charge or retreat twice his Movement Rate. If doing so to charge, his Damage rolls (charge) while charging are increased by 3, if doing so to retreat, his AC for the Turn is increased by 3.

Level 7: Armor Skin 2: The Natural Armor Bonus of Armor Skin increases to +2.
Gains Evasion.

Level 8: Critical Eye: After fighting an enemy for 2 rounds, increases his Crit Range (with all weapons/Unarmed) against that opponent by 2.


Level 9: Physical perfection 1: +2 to one physical Attribute.
Stron Surge: Physical Surge now increases the Attribute of your choice by 6


Level 10: Enduring Skin: gains Resist Element 10 against one Element and Spell Resistance 6+Level.


Level 11: Seen it all: All Spells or Spellike Abilities influencing his physical (!!) perception are treated as -3 DC.
Armor Skin 3: The Natural AC Bonus from Armor Skin is now +3.

Level 12: Done it all....: May take 12 instead of Take 10 where possible.*

Level 13: The Giants Strike: Deals Damage as if one Size Category larger.

Level 14: Physical perfection 2: +2 to another physical Attribute.
Armor Skin 4: The Natural AC Bonus from Armor Skin is now +4..

Level 15: Destruction by my Hands: All Attacks made against unliving Targets (this includes pure Constructs and mindless undead, Golems and such, and of course all Objects) automatically deal maximum rolled Damage. This includes eventual Bonus Dice!
Physical Surge now lasts 2 Minutes.

Level 16: Iron Mind: Gains + Level/4 to Saves against all mind affecting effects. Gains Immunity to supernatural Effects that cause fear, Shaken or similar Effects 8but not regular man.!)

Level 17: The Kings Gaze: 3 times per day may make an Intimidate Check against all Enemies in Sight.
If that check succeeds by more than 10 points the targets fall unconscious for 1d10+5 rounds.
Speed of thought: Speed Surge now adds another 40ft Movement Bonus.

Level 18: ...and lived to tell the tale: Gains Fast healing 2 whenever below 50% of HP. Maximum Number of HP healed by this/day: 10*Level.
Armor Skin 5: The Natural AC Bonus from Armor Skin is now +5..

Level 19: Physical perfection 3: gains +2 to any one physical Attribute.

Level 20: Physical Master: Gains Immunity against: negative Levels, Poisons, Sickness (all natural ones).
Inviolable: Gains +1/4th Level to saves against: All Instant Death Effects, all Unconscious Effects, all Transportation Effects, all Transformation Effects.
Armor Skin 6: The Natural AC Bonus from Armor Skin is now +6.



Special Feats: (these require Levels in "Tough Guy").

Impenetrable Will: Increase Spell Resistance to 11+Level. Requires Level 12.

Mithral Skin: add +3 DR/- as per CLass Ability. Requires Level 10

Adamantine Skin: add +3 DR/- as per CLass Ability. Requires Level 17

Giant among Men: May wield all Weapons of this Class one size category larger without any Maluses. Requires Level 16.
If focussed on Unarmed in Level 4, always adds +2 to his unarmed Damage rolls.

Shrug it Off: Increase one Save by 3 points. May be taken up to three times in total. May choose the same Safe multiple times.



So, whadda ya think?


Edited after Red Fels Feedback, 13.3.

Red Fel
2016-03-12, 02:19 PM
I'll bite.


Basics:
Alignment: Any, though most tend towards some form of Neutrality or Order in it.
Hitdie: D10
Saves: all high
BAB: Full
Skillpts: 4+IntMod
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Craft (any one), Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (Martial Arts and one more), Perception.
Armor: Light
Weapon proficiencies: All Simple Weapons and Unarmed.

Why not d12? The premise of the class is that the character is really just naturally tough, right? So why not a d12 hit die?


Choose Path (Bonuses only apply while not multiclassing with any class that grants Spells!) at Level 1:
:
Young (requires Age maximal Adult): add natural Dexterity Bonus or Level/3 (whichever is more) to Initiative and Dodge AC.
At Level 11 also adds Natural Dex Bonus to Crit Confirmation Rolls.
At Level 20 Now adds Double the natural Dex Bonus to Initiative and Dodge AC.

or

Old (requires Age Minimal Adult): Add Wisdom Bonus to AC and ignore negative Age Modifiers.
At Level 11 adds Wisdom Bonus to Damage Rolls.
At Level 20 Adds Natural Wisdom Bonus to Damage Resistance.

So really, it's just "Dex-based" or "Wis-based," then? How about, instead of making it an age thing, you make it a style thing - "Quick" and "Clever"? Because tying it to age just seems awkward, to me.


Level 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Toughness, Path-Ability.

Level 2: Physical Surge: once per Day per Level/2 may increase one physical Attribute by 4 for 1 Minute.

Level 3: Armor Skin 1: +1 natural AC Bonus.
Strong Arm: Adds +1 Damage to all Damage Rolls.

So far, what I'm seeing is "bigger numbers." Okay.


Level 4: Weapon of Choice:
Choose one: Weapon Focus Unarmed or Weapon Focus “Chosen Weapon Type” (see profficiencies).
If Unarmed: increases his unarmed Damage as if all his Levels were Monk levels
If Weapon Type: Gains Weapon Specialization for that Weapon at Level 5, Greater Weapon Focus at level 9 and Greater Weapon Specialization at level 13. Also always considers that Weapons Crit Range as one Higher.

If this is PF, why not use weapon categories? You know, like the Fighter has.


Level 5: Toughened by Training: Gains DR 1/3 his level in this Class (round down).
"Big Guy": may use his Strength Bonus instead of Charisma for purposes of Intimidation.

Level 6: Speed Surge: Once per Day per Level of this Class may charge or retreat twice his Movement Rate. If doing so his Damage rolls (charge) or AC (Retreat) are improved by 3 for the turn.

You might want to clarify this one. Does that mean that the damage boost is only applied while charging, or the AC is only increased while fleeing?


Level 7: Perfect Control: may cause nonlethal Damage without penalty whenever he wants to.

A bit late to be getting something like this, isn't it?


Level 8: Critical Eye: from the third round onward increases his Critical Range against the same opponent by 2.

You may want to word this better. I think I get the general idea, but clarity never hurts.


Armor Skin 2: The Natural AC Bonus is now 2.

I'd also reword this. "The natural armor bonus to AC from Armor Skin increases to +2" is better. Otherwise, there's an interpretation risk that this might not stack with other increases to natural armor.


Level 9: Physical perfection 1: +2 to one physical Attribute. Physical Surge now increases the Attribute by 6

And clarify this. +2 to one attribute - permanent increase? What kind? Specify. Also, does Physical Surge now only increase that one attribute? Does this ability lock Physical Surge in?


Gains Evasion.

Level 10: Enduring Skin: gains DR 10 against one Element and Spell Resistance 6+Level.

DR doesn't apply to "elements." It applies to weapon damage.


Level 11: Seen it all: All Spells or Spellike Abilities influencing his perception are treated as -3 DC.

Big interpretation hole there. Does that include enchantments? Illusions? Does a spell or SLA that influences relationships (e.g. how he perceives other people, such as Charm Person) apply?


Level 12: Done it all....: May take 12 instead of Take 10 where possible.

Does taking 12 make that big a difference, if it's only where you could take 10 anyway?


Armor Skin 3: Bonus is now 3.

As before.


Level 13: The Giants Strike: Deals Damage as if one Size Category larger.

Level 14: Physical perfection 2: +2 to another physical Attribute.

Level 15: Destruction by my Hands: All Attacks made against unliving Targets (this includes pure Constructs and mindless undead, Golems and such, and of course all Objects) automatically deal maximum rolled Damage. This includes eventual Bonus Dice!
Physical Surge now lasts 2 Minutes.

Level 16: Iron Mind: Gains + Level/4 to Saves against all mind affecting effects. Gains Immunity to supernatural Effects that cause fear, Shaken or similar Effects 8but not regular man.!)

Level 17: The Kings Gaze: 3 times per day may make an Intimidate Check against all Enemies in Sight.
If that check succeeds by more than 10 points the targets fall unconscious for 1d10+5 rounds.
Speed of thought: Movement Surge now adds another 40ft Movement Bonus.

You mean Speed Surge, right?


Level 18: ...and lived to tell the tale: Gains Fast healing 2 whenever below 50% of HP. Maximum Number of HP healed by this/day: 10*Level.
Armor Skin 4: Bonus is now 4.

Level 19: Physical perfection 3: gains +2 to any one physical Attribute.

Level 20: Physical Master: Gains Immunity against: negative Levels, Poisons, Sickness (all natural ones).
Inviolable: Gains +1/4th Level to saves against: All Instant Death Effects, all Unconscious Effects, all Transportation Effects, all Transformation Effects.

Okay. So, so far, this class gets:
Full BAB
Bonuses to natural armor, physical attributes, and several saves
Per-day abilities that increase physical attributes and movement
And, suddenly, a batch of immunities
For the desired fluff - a tough person who hits hard and takes punishment - it kind of works. A Fighter or similar probably does a better job of dealing out abuse, simply due to the availability of feats and options to increase and diversify damage output. And aside from some specific immunities, having a +4 natural AC is... Not fantastic, frankly. And a +2 to any given physical attribute, while nice, ultimately amounts to a +1 to various die rolls.

It's not terrible. It's just not amazing. Which I guess is sort of the point. I just think it's hard to see why someone would take this class over, say, a Fighter or Barbarian.

Also:

Special Feats: (these require Levels in "Tough Guy").

Impenetrable Will: Increase Spell Resistance to 11+Level. Requires Level 12.

Mithral Skin: add +3 DR. Requires Level 10

Adamantine Skin: add +3 DR. Requires Level 17

DR/what?


Giant among Men: increase Damage output by another Size Category. Requires Level 16.

You know that PF has a limit of one actual size increase and one virtual size increase, right?


Shrug it Off: Increase one Save by 3 points. May be taken up to three times in total.

Can it be taken three times for the same save?

GrayDeath
2016-03-13, 06:52 AM
I'll bite.



Why not d12? The premise of the class is that the character is really just naturally tough, right? So why not a d12 hit die?



Gah, I intended D12. Fixed.




So really, it's just "Dex-based" or "Wis-based," then? How about, instead of making it an age thing, you make it a style thing - "Quick" and "Clever"? Because tying it to age just seems awkward, to me.


I wanted the different Styles (see various Comics, Books, Animes) of "the Youngster" and "The Old Guy".
So tying it to Age is actually intentionally awkward. ^^
I see your point though.
hmmm....





If this is PF, why not use weapon categories? You know, like the Fighter has.


Got me there, I totally forgot it did it that way (actually never played a fighter in PF ^^).
Will be implemented, thank you.



You might want to clarify this one. Does that mean that the damage boost is only applied while charging, or the AC is only increased while fleeing?


Both actually. You get a boost to damage while charging and to AC while retreating.
WIll be clarified.




A bit late to be getting something like this, isn't it?


True.
Do you think adding it to Level 1 or 2 wwould be too early?
As your comment made me realize its a REALLY important part of the feel I am aspiring to.
Put mit in earlier for now.




You may want to word this better. I think I get the general idea, but clarity never hurts.


How about this: As soon as more than 2 rounds have been spent fighting the same opponent, the critical range of your attack increases by 2 against that opponent"?




I'd also reword this. "The natural armor bonus to AC from Armor Skin increases to +2" is better. Otherwise, there's an interpretation risk that this might not stack with other increases to natural armor.


And again you are correct. Rewording.




And clarify this. +2 to one attribute - permanent increase? What kind? Specify. Also, does Physical Surge now only increase that one attribute? Does this ability lock Physical Surge in?


permanent+2 to one Attribute. And no, Physical Surge is still freely useable.
Dang imprecise wording though, thanks for catching it.!




DR doesn't apply to "elements." It applies to weapon damage.


THats what happens if you copypaste.
Resist Energy 10 (Choose one) was intended. Argh.




Big interpretation hole there. Does that include enchantments? Illusions? Does a spell or SLA that influences relationships (e.g. how he perceives other people, such as Charm Person) apply?


I meant any physical perception, but did not want to key it to Illusions only.
Do you ahve a suggestion how to word it better?




Does taking 12 make that big a difference, if it's only where you could take 10 anyway?


Probably not. My first Idea was allowing to take 12 and once per day/Class Skill take 10 where it would not normally be possible...but that seemed a bit too much to me.
Is it?







You mean Speed Surge, right?
[/QUOTRE]
Correct.



Okay. So, so far, this class gets:
Full BAB
Bonuses to natural armor, physical attributes, and several saves
Per-day abilities that increase physical attributes and movement
And, suddenly, a batch of immunities
For the desired fluff - a tough person who hits hard and takes punishment - it kind of works. A Fighter or similar probably does a better job of dealing out abuse, simply due to the availability of feats and options to increase and diversify damage output. And aside from some specific immunities, having a +4 natural AC is... Not fantastic, frankly. And a +2 to any given physical attribute, while nice, ultimately amounts to a +1 to various die rolls.

It's not terrible. It's just not amazing. Which I guess is sort of the point. I just think it's hard to see why someone would take this class over, say, a Fighter or Barbarian.


It is not aimed at being TOO powerful, but the first draft had a total of +6 Natural AC.
So you think bringing that back in would work?
Also: the Attribute Increase (permanent) can be stacked once (only the second instance has a "another attribute" clause).

And overall: it is intended to offer a completely different "Feel" without being decidedly better than an unoptimized Barbarian.
It SHOULD be better than the fighter at specific Battles (namely against Casters and Construtcs) and tougher than both.
But otherwise NOT more powerful, ideally.



Also:



DR/what?


DR/-, as the Class Ability, which it is an upgrade of.
Too strong?




You know that PF has a limit of one actual size increase and one virtual size increase, right?


I actually completely forgot that.
Hmmm, maybe change the Feat so that it allows tu wield Class Profficiency Weapons one size Category larger without penalty? What do you think?




Can it be taken three times for the same save?

Yes.




Thank you for your feedback, keep it coming, if you will!

GrayDeath
2016-03-15, 02:31 PM
Bumped. ^^

nikkoli
2016-03-16, 11:54 AM
What is the point of the nonetheless damage bit because improved unarmed strikes does that on its own? Or is that for all weapons you are proficient with?
And the young gets 2x dex to ac and to initiative?
Also why distinguish between "natural" and I asume "unnatural" wisdom bonus for the old? What is a natural wisdom bonus? Do perminant bonuses such as inherent bonuses affect this?

GrayDeath
2016-03-16, 06:42 PM
Nonetheless Damage??
If by that you mean weaponless damage/unarmed Damage: improved Unarmed Strike does not give one the Monks Damage Progression as far as I remember. ;)


@ Dex Bonuses:
At Level 20 the "young" version does, correct.

And Natural Bonuses are the Bonus the Character him/herself, without any Items, Potions, Spells and other stuff has.
So for example you ahve 18 Wisdom, are wearing a +4 Wisdom Item and have Owls Wisdom on you, giving you a full whopping 26, hence a +8 Bonus, of which only +4 (your own) would apply.

Tevo77777
2016-03-16, 07:34 PM
Could this be ported intact to D-20 Modern or Pathfinder Modern?

What do you think?

GrayDeath
2016-03-17, 07:06 AM
Good question....

As I do not have much experience with D20 Modern, and none with PF Modern, I cannot answer that, but maybe Red Fel can?
Red Fel, Red Fel? ^^


More serious: as far as I recall they are far more streamlined and less detailed, so probably needs a lot of adaption, but I would not declare it impossible out of hand.

Red Fel
2016-03-17, 08:19 AM
Good question....

As I do not have much experience with D20 Modern, and none with PF Modern, I cannot answer that, but maybe Red Fel can?
Red Fel, Red Fel? ^^

Really? Summoning me for that? I need to charge more.

I have no experience with d20 Modern or PF Modern, so I'm not the person to ask.

nikkoli
2016-03-17, 09:51 AM
I have like 1 experience with them, but d20 modern and pf modern are pretty bare bones classes and you pick stuff via talents/feats. I'm more experienced with pf modern and you could take quantum talent to pick up all of the stuff from this class or just cherry pick the stuff you really want.

GrayDeath
2016-03-17, 09:56 AM
Really? Summoning me for that? I need to charge more.

I have no experience with d20 Modern or PF Modern, so I'm not the person to ask.

Nah, I actually summoned you for more feedback.
This includes but is in no way limited to D20 or PF Modern. ;)


Or ... it might have been an accident, ;)

Tevo77777
2016-03-18, 09:35 PM
I have like 1 experience with them, but d20 modern and pf modern are pretty bare bones classes and you pick stuff via talents/feats. I'm more experienced with pf modern and you could take quantum talent to pick up all of the stuff from this class or just cherry pick the stuff you really want.

What about as an advanced class in D-20 Modern and adjusted Pathfinder Modern?

Gnorman
2016-03-18, 10:18 PM
Okay, I'll bite too.

Here's the thing I'm noticing about this class, like Red Fel. It's almost nothing but scaling bonuses to attack, damage, and various resistances. While those have their place, don't get me wrong, they don't lend any versatility to the class that has a chance of making it Tier 3. I'm not even sure it's Tier 4, as to my eye a Fighter would outperform it in most circumstances by virtue of having a greater feat pool. It's just not a very interesting class to me. It doesn't do anything.

But as far as it being a "mundane tough guy," you've succeeded. Maybe it's just me, and the fact that I don't find that concept very interesting. But I still don't think that it's going to get above Tier 5, maaaaybe low tier 4, without some sort of ability to contribute something other than "I attack again."

I think that this is a 5-level, maybe a 10-level concept spread across 20 levels. It's going to lose its luster very quickly.

Other quick notes:

Fast healing 2 when below 50% health, with a cap, is pretty poor at level 18. The Dragon Shaman can do this at level 5, with no cap, in an area. You could give him Fast Healing $TEXAS and I'd still think "Meh." He's showing up to a game of rocket tag with a big stick.

Poison, negative level and mundane disease immunity at level 20 is, I'm sorry to say, not very powerful as a capstone. It's level 20. You might as well just say "immune to death."

GrayDeath
2016-03-19, 02:19 PM
Seeing many consider the Rogue (with a little better Skills but far more dependend on situations) Tier 3, I`d say its at elast a solid Top Tier 4.
But OK, I`ll bite.

Aside from giving it more Fast Healing and stronger Immunities (to which I am not adverse): Ideas to let it get "better" without losing the intended Fluff?

Gnorman
2016-03-19, 02:54 PM
Seeing many consider the Rogue (with a little better Skills but far more dependend on situations) Tier 3, I`d say its at elast a solid Top Tier 4.
But OK, I`ll bite.

Aside from giving it more Fast Healing and stronger Immunities (to which I am not adverse): Ideas to let it get "better" without losing the intended Fluff?

Without getting TOO bogged down by Tier conversations:

The rogue (which is generally considered Tier 4) has a multitude of skills that allow it to contribute in non-combat situations, including, most crucially, Use Magic Device. The Tough Guy does not. That's the key differentiation point here.

Most, if not all, Tier 3 classes have some sort of ability system (spellcasting, initiating, binding, shapeshifting) that allow them to contribute to situations outside of their normal strengths.

Tier 4 is "Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining" (emphasis mine). Based on what I've seen so far, this is about as high as I'd rate it. But I'm not even sure that it does "combat" well, as it's made irrelevant by anything that can avoid its attacks.

So basically, some abilities that allow the Tough Guy to deal with flying enemies, incorporeal ones, social situations (Strength to Intimidate helps, but likely doesn't quite cut it), a trap-filled dungeon, etc., would be my recommendation. Fluff is mutable, but versatility is crucial to Tier 3 status.

GrayDeath
2016-03-19, 03:45 PM
Hmmm, good.

I`ll make some adjustments to Speed Surge/Physical Surge that allow kumping to flying enemies or augment ranged attacks, check.

As for the Traps: True, that had slipped my mind (usually do not play the roge^^).
Something along the lines of Solipsism that would allow the Tough Guy to trigger them and ignore the effects maybe?
Building on its already existing DR theme. Yes, that might work.

As again the fluff is criticall, he does not really offer anything "new", jsut "different" (and that is intentional).

Adjusting its Social Abilities aside from Intimidate ... maybe a Sense Motive boost. I`lls ee what I can come up with.

Thank you for your feedback!