The Dervish

[...Eh?]

I heard that the Dervish is a good class for TWF, however, I looked at the class, and I can't see what's so good about it. You get the ability to move past enemies and attack them, and then eight levels of nothing in particular, and finally, you can make a crapload of attacks in a full attack as a reward for waiting ten levels. I dun get it.

[Matthew]

I don't find the Dervish all that good either. It's really just the ability to make a Full Attack whilst moving that seems to get most of the praise. As Prestige Classes go, it's okay.

[Fax Celestis]

Tempest is good for TWF, though. Real good. As is Bloodclaw Master.

[Callix]

The ability to move and make full attacks is a major fix to the problems of TWF, being that a high-dex character is forced to stay still and trade full attacks. Add in the ability to dual-wield scimitars at -2 not -4 and you have a really good deal, with AC boosts into the bargain. Try Slippers of Battledancing (DMGII i think) for a bit extra. If you want true power, try ftr 5/dervish 10/Tempest 5. Then give them Thousand Cuts mid-Dervish Dance. If you want to be really cruel, chuck some Swordsage in there and take a Mongoose boost.

[Jannex]

Well, let's see...

It allows you to TWF and Finesse scimitars.
It adds to your move speed (up to +15').
It allows you to move during a full attack.
It gives additional (untyped) bonuses to attack and damage during a Dervish Dance (up to +5).
It gives full BAB, and good Reflex and Will.

It's really kinda shiny, even without the capstone ability.

[Talya]

I heard that the Dervish is a good class for TWF, however, I looked at the class, and I can't see what's so good about it. You get the ability to move past enemies and attack them, and then eight levels of nothing in particular, and finally, you can make a crapload of attacks in a full attack as a reward for waiting ten levels. I dun get it.

1) You overcome the single biggest problem full melee classes have using their iterative attacks: a lack of mobility. One cannot say enough about this...the biggest complaint about monks is they cannot flurry while moving...their two signature abilities don't work together. Dervishes overcome this single biggest problem for any melee class that relies on full attacks (and nobody relies on full attacks more than dual weilders.)
2) You get an extra 5 points of bonus damage per attack (and +5 to hit as well). Bonus damage is the lifeblood of someone using an offhand weapon.
3) You get to treat a very good one handed weapon as light, using both of the same weapon in each hand also means your required weapon focus ... & weapon specialization, which you'll likely take, are actually good ideas.
4) It's a d10 hit die, 4 skill points per level, high BAB, high will and reflex saves (to go with your already high fort save.)
5) You get a bonus +3 untyped armor class.
6) You get cleave, great cleave for free. (And spring attack...which is, actually, useful to a dervish.)
7) You get improved initiative rolls (+2). With your already high dexterity, you've usually got initiative.
8) To go with your nice newly useful mobility, you get +15' to your speed.
9) You've already got combat expertise. Now when you use it you get +4
additional armor class for fighting defensively.
10) You get to double your number of attacks once per day.

I've seen some amazing Warblade-Dervish builds that really take advantage of this even further, they work really well together.

[Aximili]

Tempest is good for TWF, though. Real good. As is Bloodclaw Master.

Though Tempest's requirements aren't worth it if unless you're a fighter.

[Talya]

Tempest also loses a bit of its appeal if you lose the same weapon in each hand.

[...Eh?]

Alright, thanks for all the answers.

[Draz74]

It's worth noting, though, that the Dervish is less important than it was before Tome of Battle. Nowadays, you can simulate a decent Dervish by making a Swordsage who focuses on TWF Tiger Claw maneuvers, melee-based Desert Wind Maneuvers, and a bit of dipping in Diamond Mind, all without ever touching the actual Dervish class.

Before maneuvers, though (and some other Pounce-like abilities in Spell Compendium and Complete Champion), the ability to move and full attack was even more impressive than it is now, and the Dervish really was pretty amazing.

Of course, now that Tome of Battle is out, as others mentioned, you can even combine them, and make a Warblade/Dervish ... for the over-achievers. :smallcool:

[Matthew]

The single worst thing about the Dervish is the 5 Ranks of Perform (Dance) and 3 Ranks of Tumble you need to qualify. Essentially sixteen Skill Points down the drain, whether Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin or Ranger, it hurts. The eariliest you can get in as a straight Class is Fighter 7 and the Feats you have to burn to qualify suck a lot.

The loss of Power Attack is also sucky to say the least. That's not to say there aren't advantages, but personally I don't find them attractive enough.

[Talya]

The single worst thing about the Dervish is the 5 Ranks of Perform (Dance) and 3 Ranks of Tumble you need to qualify. Essentially sixteen Skill Points down the drain, whether Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin or Ranger, it hurts. The eariliest you can get in as a straight Class is Fighter 7 and the Feats you have to burn to qualify suck a lot.

The loss of Power Attack is also sucky to say the least. That's not to say there aren't advantages, but personally I don't find them attractive enough.

Well, you're assuming low intelligence. But straight class fighter is never the way to go to reach dervish. You'd want at least 1 swashbuckler, probably 3. That also means your intelligence is likely to be higher, tumble is class, and you have skill points to spare. Human, 3 swashbuckler, 2 fighter makes dervish at level 6 without any difficulty at all...You'd have taken Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus Scimitar to qualify, and still had a spare feat for two weapon fighting...and gotten weapon finesse for free. Since dervish is in the same book that Swashbuckler comes out of, I think they were rather intended to be used that way. In addition, you've got Intelligence to damage, which is once again great for the off-hand attacks. I made a build that works in Champion of Corellon Larethian as well...which is nice, but I think I prefer warblade levels.

[Jannex]

The single worst thing about the Dervish is the 5 Ranks of Perform (Dance) and 3 Ranks of Tumble you need to qualify. Essentially sixteen Skill Points down the drain, whether Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin or Ranger, it hurts. The eariliest you can get in as a straight Class is Fighter 7 and the Feats you have to burn to qualify suck a lot.

The loss of Power Attack is also sucky to say the least. That's not to say there aren't advantages, but personally I don't find them attractive enough.

Two levels of Fighter and four levels of Rogue will get you there after level 6, and you'll have a bunch more skill points and Sneak Attack (which is nice for TWF); if you're human, you've also got your first TWF feat plus either Power Attack or Weapon Finesse, depending on whether your Strength or Dexterity is better. You lose +1BAB, some hit points, and get Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack, and plenty of skills. That's how I'd do it, at any rate.

[Matthew]

To be clear, I know how to get there via Multi Classing. As I said, it's straight Classed Characters that find it hard going. I'm not assuming a Low Intelligence at all, I wasn't speaking in terms of proportions, but in terms of waste.

[Aximili]

To be clear, I know how to get there via Multi Classing. As I said, it's straight Classed Characters that find it hard going. I'm not assuming a Low Intelligence at all, I wasn't speaking in terms of proportions, but in terms of waste.

A straight swash doesn't fuind it hard.

[Matthew]

Are you sure about that? Look, guys, Swashbuckler doesn't get Perform (Dance) as a Class Skill last time I looked. He has the same problems as everybody else and less Feats to play with.

[Aximili]

So?
The dervish only needs 3 ranks on both skills. Even a fighter can get that by 3rd level.
You can boost Perform after you get to dervish.:smallwink:

[Matthew]

Not last time I looked; he needs 5 Ranks in Perform (Dance). That means seven levels if it's not a Class Skill [(3+7)/2]. That's why you start out in Rogue or Bard, conventionally, to get into this Prestige Class earlier. [i.e. Rogue 1/Fighter 5 or Bard 1/Fighter 5, etc...]

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

1) You overcome the single biggest problem full melee classes have using their iterative attacks: a lack of mobility. One cannot say enough about this...the biggest complaint about monks is they cannot flurry while moving...their two signature abilities don't work together. Dervishes overcome this single biggest problem for any melee class that relies on full attacks (and nobody relies on full attacks more than dual weilders.)
2) You get an extra 5 points of bonus damage per attack (and +5 to hit as well). Bonus damage is the lifeblood of someone using an offhand weapon.
3) You get to treat a very good one handed weapon as light, using both of the same weapon in each hand also means your required weapon focus ... & weapon specialization, which you'll likely take, are actually good ideas.
4) It's a d10 hit die, 4 skill points per level, high BAB, high will and reflex saves (to go with your already high fort save.)
5) You get a bonus +3 untyped armor class.
6) You get cleave, great cleave for free. (And spring attack...which is, actually, useful to a dervish.)
7) You get improved initiative rolls (+2). With your already high dexterity, you've usually got initiative.
8) To go with your nice newly useful mobility, you get +15' to your speed.
9) You've already got combat expertise. Now when you use it you get +4
additional armor class for fighting defensively.
10) You get to double your number of attacks once per day.

I've seen some amazing Warblade-Dervish builds that really take advantage of this even further, they work really well together.


Thank you very much Talya; this is nearly the same description word for word that I gave to a player that was against TWF'ing; the Dervish is the best TWF'er in the history of DnD.

Yes.

You read it right. The BEST TWF'er in the history of DnD. The one thing that I would change is the massive amounts of feats that it needs.

I am also curious on one thing; a Warblade/Dervish build? I built a Swordsage/Fighter/Dervish, but t was too obtuse and did not work well. Is there a linkage to the Warblade/Dervish build that you refer to?

[Jannex]

Not last time I looked; he needs 5 Ranks in Perform (Dance). That means seven levels if it's not a Class Skill [(3+7)/2]. That's why you start out in Rogue or Bard, conventionally, to get into this Prestige Class earlier. [i.e. Rogue 1/Fighter 5 or Bard 1/Fighter 5, etc...]

Look again. I'm looking right at the page in CW, top of page 26, and it says Perform (dance) 3 ranks, Tumble 3 ranks.

So yeah, pure Fighter can take Dervish starting at 6th level. But really, better off with Rogue, and just dipping into Fighter.

[Matthew]

Oh well, that sounds better then. I don't own a copy of Complete Warrior, so I'm just looking at Crystal Keep. Somebody should report that error...

[Zim]

I never thought about Swashbuckler and Dervish in the same build, but now I see the possibilities...neat. A STAP pirate dervish would be AWE-Some. Balancing and tumbling along crossbeams and railings, cutlasses spinning. Dead enemy pirates mown down like grass...wicked!

The Dervish I built for SCAP was a half copper dragon. I kinda came at the PrC sideways with levels of ranger, rogue and fighter. By ECL 14, he had an insane bonus to hit and damage (23 STR, Wpn Spec and MWM slashing, blessed baned weapons all made for a really hurty guy) when dancing and those tumble ranks made him able to avoid AoO with impunity. He could dance behind enemies (softening them up as he went) and set up flanks (for the rogue's sneak attacks). The Low 30ish AC, high hit points, and evasion made him very durable as a combatant too. So much so that I started to get bored of him. The down side of a good build, I guess. :smallfrown:

[Talya]

I am also curious on one thing; a Warblade/Dervish build? I built a Swordsage/Fighter/Dervish, but t was too obtuse and did not work well. Is there a linkage to the Warblade/Dervish build that you refer to?

I found a few neat ones, although none took the maneuvers and stances I'd have taken. Here's a few examples:
Dervish Warblade (http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php%3Fp%3D10273728%26postcount%3D487)
Dervish Swordsage (http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://boards.wizards.com/showpost.php%3Fp%3D10019033%26postcount%3D351)
Dervish Swordsage 2 (http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://boards.wizards.com/showpost.php%3Fp%3D10019194%26postcount%3D352)

I don't remember the stuff I wanted to take, but i think Iron Heart 5th level stance Dancing Blade Form (+5' reach--Reach is very nice in a dervish dance) is one of those essentials.

[Forks]

I was pretty pumped about making a TWF dervish for a while...but its difficult for the builds to deal serious damage some of the time. The problem only becomes exacerbated at higher levels when DR becomes more common. Im currently in favor of power attacking with a 2hander. In particular, with a scythe or guisarme and elusive target, you can get good free attacks and deal some incredible damage while still retaining mobility. If your DM is ok with it, scythe allows trips. It just has piercing OR slashing as its damage type, which might be questionable.

Relying on precision damage (insightful strike, graceful strike, skirmish, etcetc) to boost your TWF damage is fine, as long as you're ok with the idea of being much less effective against DR, uncrittable, or concealed targets.

[Aximili]

There are ways of overcoming any damage reduction.

Not many ways, and not easy ways. But there are:smallwink:

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

I found a few neat ones, although none took the maneuvers and stances I'd have taken. Here's a few examples:
Dervish Warblade (http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php%3Fp%3D10273728%26postcount%3D487)
Dervish Swordsage (http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://boards.wizards.com/showpost.php%3Fp%3D10019033%26postcount%3D351)
Dervish Swordsage 2 (http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://boards.wizards.com/showpost.php%3Fp%3D10019194%26postcount%3D352)

I don't remember the stuff I wanted to take, but i think Iron Heart 5th level stance Dancing Blade Form (+5' reach--Reach is very nice in a dervish dance) is one of those essentials.

Thank you Talya these are quite helpful! :smile: Dancing Blade Form does look quite nice; as does Dancing Mongoose with this build =_). If I would get to a build that would have 2 stances at the same time...

[Forks]

There are ways of overcoming any damage reduction.

Not many ways, and not easy ways. But there are:smallwink:

Its not just about DR.

Dont forget about the TWF tree vs Power Attack or the unreliable nature of precision damage, which all the TWF builds need to really bring on the hurt.

I guess it matters less if you have a large playing group or a forgiving DM. I really like the concept and flavor of the dual wielding guy dancing around and bringing on the pain. I also like the idea of some wild man bouncing around like a russian cossack taking really hard swings at some baddy's shins. :smallsmile: Unfortunately, we currently have a smallish group and a fairly hardline DM, so I try to leave as little as possible to chance and go with the cossack. :smallwink:

[Talya]

Thank you Talya these are quite helpful! :smile: Dancing Blade Form does look quite nice; as does Dancing Mongoose with this build =_). If I would get to a build that would have 2 stances at the same time...


Yeah, can't be done if you multiclass out of warblade, unfortunately.

[Just_Some_Girl]

One of the sickest characters I've ever had in a game was a Dervish. Since her move speed was faster than the other characters and she had that dervish dance thing going, she could beat all the other players to the baddies and kill practically all of them before everyone else got there. Crazy.