Gladiator Fighter Archetype

[Grynning]

It's the ides of March tomorrow, so we're doing Roman inspired stuff all month. Here's my take on gladiators, based loosely on their historical fighting styles.
http://forgotmydice.com/index.php/2016/03/14/are-you-not-entertained/

[Final Hyena]

My first reaction is that the first arena training and combat are too strong the third option is too weak and I'm not sure about nets for the second option.

[Grynning]

Are saying all the way through, or at specific levels?
My partner on the site also reacted to the resistance to damage thing on Scutarious being too strong, but my thinking was that barbarians in a rage get something similar, and bear-totem barbarians get a superior damage resistance ability, so it wasn't too unbalanced.
Like, would you consider it better if the resistance thing was swapped with the 10th level ability?

[Grynning]

As far as the dual wield option goes, it was tricky, dual wielding is already weak but I didn't want to swing it too far the other way either. Maybe if the abilities at 1st and 18th trigger on any hit but limited to once per round (instead of only triggering on a hit with your bonus/offhand attack)?

[Final Hyena]

my thinking was that barbarians in a rage get something similar, and bear-totem barbarians get a superior damage resistance ability, so it wasn't too unbalanced.
Wizards get a full tier spell list, that doesn't mean we should just give any class the same.


Like, would you consider it better if the resistance thing was swapped with the 10th level ability?
Not overly the damage resistance is likely rather bad by that level as it's bypassed by magic weapons.

It's probably not broken (or at least much) it's just a bit weird.
If we look at the Scutarius abilities, where does the damage resistance come from? And why do you get advantage for someone missing you? I could understand if you were blocking redirecting their weapon away leaving them open... but what if they miss one attack and then hit on their next one.

[Grynning]

Updated the article slightly. 3rd and 10th lvl scutarious selections swapped. 3rd level Dimachaerus ability changed so that it's more consistent and AoO's can trigger it for more out of turn damage potential.

[Grynning]

Not overly the damage resistance is likely rather bad by that level as it's bypassed by magic weapons...
(snip)
If we look at the Scutarius abilities, where does the damage resistance come from? And why do you get advantage for someone missing you? I could understand if you were blocking redirecting their weapon away leaving them open... but what if they miss one attack and then hit on their next one.
Removing the magic weapon restriction at 10th level. As far as the fluff goes, it's just general tankiness. Guy is good with a shield and partially deflects with it even on a "hit." D&D is super abstract about such things, I try not to think too hard about how they would "work" because a lot of classes start to fall apart if you apply that logic.

[PoeticDwarf]

Fluff is nice
It just seems way too strong

Scutarius is just advantage half te time or even more if you are smart for example. Way too much, just one thing and there's way more wrong. On level 10 the scutarius even gets something some clerics and pallies get in a more limited way, on level 17

Just unbalanced and OP, which is sad because I normally really like the homebrew you make

[Grynning]

I think it's interesting people think it's strong. In my opinion it was kinda above champion but below battlemaster in power.
Edited it again. Toned down the 1st level Scut ability a bit. I don't want to mess with it too much more because typically I like to let the articles on the blog stand. I'd love it if someone would playtest one of my archetypes in a mid-level game and let me know how it went - Rob and I plan to do something like this in the near future.
PS - I really do like getting feedback. I know that posting it as a link may make it seem like it's something I won't change, but that's not true - we like to improve on what we do when we can.

[Final Hyena]

Looking at the update I would certainly allow someone to play that character assuming the campaign ended before level 7. After that it just outperforms the battlemaster and keeps getting stronger.

[PoeticDwarf]

I think it's interesting people think it's strong. In my opinion it was kinda above champion but below battlemaster in power.
Edited it again. Toned down the 1st level Scut ability a bit. I don't want to mess with it too much more because typically I like to let the articles on the blog stand. I'd love it if someone would playtest one of my archetypes in a mid-level game and let me know how it went - Rob and I plan to do something like this in the near future.
PS - I really do like getting feedback. I know that posting it as a link may make it seem like it's something I won't change, but that's not true - we like to improve on what we do when we can.

I think it starts off now as strong as a battlemaster. As final hyena says, it is still high level too strong.

[Grynning]

Looking at the update I would certainly allow someone to play that character assuming the campaign ended before level 7. After that it just outperforms the battlemaster and keeps getting stronger.

I really don't see how it outperforms battlemaster - the damage potential is just not there. Battlemaster can add extra dice to the damage of multiple attacks per round, and piles on status effects on top of that, and that starts in low levels. Having played in a campaign from 1-20 with both a battlemaster and a champion fighter in the party, the battlemaster was consistently the highest damage output in the group, except on rounds when the sorcerer went nova.
The damage potential of this class is much, much lower. There is just no way it could ever match the output of a great weapon or longbow using battlemaster. It is definitely better than champion, and the tank option is well, tanky, because that's something fighters don't really get much of right now. I dunno, I accept criticism but you guys keep saying "it's too strong" and I really don't think the math backs that up.

[Final Hyena]

You're justifying the balance of your class by saying he has less damage die compared to another class. Ok, but damage (which has limited uses) is just one aspect of a class. If you believe maths shows your class to be balanced, then do the maths and present it.