Hybrid Point Buy / Roll

[RCgothic]

So one of the issues with point buy is that it in the hands of anyone who knows what they're doing it always creates perfectly optimised characters. And there's no randomness. Some DMs like to introduce some randomness by allowing a roll on 3d6 or 4d6b3 and taking point buy if you don't like the result, but the problem with this is that it has an unbounded upper maximum. In one game I joined recently, two of us rolled in the 40s pt buy equivalent, forcing the DM to increase the point by fall back from high 20s to mid 30s, which slightly diverted the power level they were aiming at.

I've been having a little think, and I thought I'd share something that I'll trial if I ever get around to being a DM.

Firstly:
You get x+1dy points, where x is something like 27 and y is 5ish. In this example that would give players between 28 and 32 points to spend - a spread, but not ridiculously so.

Secondly, the highest score you can purchase is limited:
15+1d3. If you roll a 2, no 18s for you!

Finally, the lowest score you can purchase is also limited:
7+1d3. If you roll a 3, then the lowest score you can dump is a 10, and yes, you have to pay for each of those.

Thoughts? Interesting? Worth giving a shot?

[Final Hyena]

The point of point buy is to avoid people getting more than another person.
The point of rolling is for RNG because people like to gamble.

I feel giving a point buy with a tiny bit of RNG isn't better, those who dislike RNG for rolls will resent not having that extra point while those who like RNG will be underwhelmed by the minute amount of RNG. Also how does this stop people making optimized characters?

I suppose the main thing is that this is further complicating character creation but doesn't solve much.
Some people like RNG
Some people like fixed stats
Let each type of person find a game that suits them.

[RedWarlock]

The arrangement I've been setting up has 5-of-6 rolled randomly, then totaled and compared against a point total.


Generate your Attributes:

Roll 4d6, taking the best three. Repeat four times, for five scores.
Add these five scores together, then subtract this total from 72.
If this total is less than 6, or greater than 18, you can either tweak one of the other five scores to make it fit, or reroll the lot, your choice.
Note that scores below 8 and above 16 present unique challenges. A score of 6 or 7 is very low, and may make any uses of that score difficult. A score of 17 or 18 is very high above average, and exceeds the cap in attributes for a 1st level character, and thus cannot be improved by any racial or class-based attribute bonuses until the cap has increased above this level.
Arrange these 6 scores into your 6 attributes, in any order you wish. Keep in mind your class goals when laying out these scores.

[Jormengand]

So one of the issues with point buy is that it in the hands of anyone who knows what they're doing it always creates perfectly optimised characters. And there's no randomness.

I fail to see that either of these is a problem...

[Shimeran]

I'm not sure this this create much variation. Someone who optimized with point by will do the same here, the priorities will stay the same, so the ordering will be the same. The range might be made a bit tighter, but it's not going to change best stats, second best, and so on.

On a side note, if you're looking for varied abilities with less power different, why not take an ability score array an shuffle it? Assign a card to each ability, shuffle them, assign the first score to the first draw, and keep going down the list. If you want to give more control, let them do post shuffle modifications, like "swap any two score once". If not using cards, you can fake it by rolling 1d6 for the first pass, 1d5 for the second, and so on. If you want more variation in the scores, create a few standard arrays and have them roll for which one they get.

I do have another technique for getting a balanced spread, but it's a bit slower as it involves randomly assigning roll, so I'd recommend sticking with the above for quick use.

[Godskook]

I fail to see that either of these is a problem...

Same, honestly. Although I should point out that I'm perfectly comfortable with 40 point-buy or higher.

@OP, a randomness system I heard of once is to roll Xd6, where X = point-buy choice. Die results correspond to abilities as listed on the character sheet, with 1 being strength and 6 being charisma. The player must keep at -least- half the dice. The rest are re-rolled, and the process repeats. This still allows for optimized characters, but gives characters the organic feel of rolling.

[JBPuffin]

Same, honestly. Although I should point out that I'm perfectly comfortable with 40 point-buy or higher.

@OP, a randomness system I heard of once is to roll Xd6, where X = point-buy choice. Die results correspond to abilities as listed on the character sheet, with 1 being strength and 6 being charisma. The player must keep at -least- half the dice. The rest are re-rolled, and the process repeats. This still allows for optimized characters, but gives characters the organic feel of rolling.

That sounds like fun - it'd work in 5e just as well. In fact, I may need to build a character like this...

Edit - STR 11, DEX 12, CON 13, INT 14, WIS 11, CHA 13. What an odd spread...

[Shimeran]

That is a pretty nice mechanical hack, as it should keep things balanced. That is a lot of dice though. If you wanted to go half way, you could just set a certain portion of the point buy pool to be allotted that way. It doesn't have quite the life path like feel of the keep and reroll minigame you've got going there, but it's a decent shortcut.

I will say if you go for the full reroll run you should probably have a clean up phase at the end to ensure no stats get caught between the point buy thresholds.

[JBPuffin]

I do have another technique for getting a balanced spread, but it's a bit slower as it involves randomly assigning roll, so I'd recommend sticking with the above for quick use.

Out of curiosity, what is this method, considering I will be making pre-gens and have no concerns regarding slowness?

[Tevo77777]

Well, in Pathfinder; the higher stats cost more and more to get.

It's like a point for 11, but like four for 13.

When you get to 16, it's just to expensive.

I also don't let people go under 8 because then they are worse then someone who is 15 at whatever they are going for.

[Shimeran]

Out of curiosity, what is this method, considering I will be making pre-gens and have no concerns regarding slowness?

It's similar to what Godskook posted. Basically you start with a pool of fixed d6 results, say 3 sixes, 3 fives, and so on. Then roll for which scores each of those get assigned to, shifting to the next open spot if the rolled score already has 3 rolls assigned to to.

[johnbragg]

I don't think my idea merits a whole thread, but I thought the folks on this thread might want to gasp in horror, or nod sagely.

Beyond the Standard Array and the Elite Array is the "Heroic Array." 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8.

[DigoDragon]

What about halfsies for attaining stats? You roll 4d6best3 for three stats and then point buy the remaining 3 with something like 10-15 points?