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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Brainstorming: Building a better alchemist



LordFluffy
2016-03-17, 10:03 AM
Problem 1: I like things that the Pathfinder alchemist can do, but I don't want to simply try to port it over. Grenades and shape shifting feel like options for subclasses in 5e, not baseline abilities.

Problem 2: Every class has something it can do every turn. Attacks, Cantrips, Cunning Action, etc. But alchemists feel like they should be relying on brews and concoctions.

Problem 3: There aren't a lot of potion options in the DMG.

Problem 4: Potions take time. Roleplaying standing in a lab all day doesn't sound very fun.

Problem 5: While reskinning and reflavouring are fine options for some things, a proper alchemist feels like it should be a base class.

So, my solutions and thoughts thus far:

1. Grenadier/Explosier and Jekyll/Hyde should be two subclasses I think. I would like to do a third, but I don't know if it should be poisoner or a half-caster.

2. Give them some Cantrips, but utility spells and maybe poison spray or acid splash. (I'm working on a world without clerics, so I was thinking about giving them Guidance)

3. Figure out every 1-5 spell that would work as a potion.

4. Make potion making on the fly a magical talent. They carry vials of water and can instantly change X number per day. They can only maintain Y number at a time, based on Int and while they can be used by other people, they go inert after a reasonable amount of time.

5. Build Alchemist as a base class using the Warlock template. Add discoveries that are like invocations, though I'm not sure what those should look like. Try for a wizard meets rogue flavor.

Their second level ability will be a re-roll on any ability check or save, 1 per Long Rest, based off of Int.

Anyone else have thoughts on this subject?

Arnakalar
2016-03-17, 01:23 PM
Anyone else have thoughts on this subject?

Do I!


Problem 1: I like things that the Pathfinder alchemist can do, but I don't want to simply try to port it over. Grenades and shape shifting feel like options for subclasses in 5e, not baseline abilities.

Problem 2: Every class has something it can do every turn. Attacks, Cantrips, Cunning Action, etc. But alchemists feel like they should be relying on brews and concoctions.

Problem 3: There aren't a lot of potion options in the DMG.

Problem 4: Potions take time. Roleplaying standing in a lab all day doesn't sound very fun.

Problem 5: While reskinning and reflavouring are fine options for some things, a proper alchemist feels like it should be a base class.

The Alchemist is up there for my favorite PF class, though it really bugged me at first - to me, an alchemist IS sort of a slow-played class. It is about the potions and trinkets you make, the objects you interact with, the tools in your kit - to me the heart of an alchemist IS the time spent in the lab, or collecting ingredients.

The trick, then, is to turn that into an adventurer, how to balance that, and to make it fun ON adventurers. I think the way you do that is by making the alchemist something like the Batman of D&D classes - they have some gadgets, some consumables, on a chassis of skills & combat training for the sort of scraps adventurers get themselves in.


So, my solutions and thoughts thus far:

1. Grenadier/Explosier and Jekyll/Hyde should be two subclasses I think. I would like to do a third, but I don't know if it should be poisoner or a half-caster.

2. Give them some Cantrips, but utility spells and maybe poison spray or acid splash. (I'm working on a world without clerics, so I was thinking about giving them Guidance)

3. Figure out every 1-5 spell that would work as a potion.

4. Make potion making on the fly a magical talent. They carry vials of water and can instantly change X number per day. They can only maintain Y number at a time, based on Int and while they can be used by other people, they go inert after a reasonable amount of time.

5. Build Alchemist as a base class using the Warlock template. Add discoveries that are like invocations, though I'm not sure what those should look like. Try for a wizard meets rogue flavor.

I mostly agree with most of these!

1 - A 'real' base class should have breadth, and the ability to support numerous archetypes. I'm not sure what you're envisioning with 'half-caster' but I think it's more than fine to start with just two.

2 - Related to what I've said above, I've always felt like there were a lot of similarities between Alchemist & Artificer, and this is how I would handle much of the 'stuff to do every round' - in building a 5e alchemist, I think they should have mix of 'extract-like' potions/consumables, and then something like 'Gadgets' - I'm envisoning something vaguely like the horrible Gnome Artificer prestige class, who could build special pseudo-magic items with at will or spell trigger abilities, and this is how I would handle giving them things like cantrips I think.

3 - Agreed, but you should think beyond that too: what spells can reasonably, fairly, and fun...ly be duplicated with alchemical creations: why shouldn't this alchemist be able to make 'fog bombs', oil of elemental weapon, etc?

4 - The universality of Spell Slots I think is a key here, & the rune scribe & the artificer Archetype (both from Unearthed Arcana) give us a template for how this should work. Rather than being able to instantly make potions, I would say that the Alchemist should get spell slots just like any other magical class, however they don't get spells known or prepared.

Instead, they get a formula book and a 'Brew Potion' ability - when they complete a short rest they can brew n (=int mod?) potions, expending their available spell slots to brew potions of any spell in their formula book. These act like normal potions and can be handed out, but when you complete a long rest, you don't recover spell slots for potions that weren't consumed unless you render those potions inert (i.e. the magic is 'reserved' unless you recover it from the potion). Maybe you can prepare any number of potions when you complete a long rest?

5 - I like wizard meets rogue, and I like invocations, however I can't quite envision using the warlock template. I feel like the Alch may need new class architecture to support the things they ought to be able to do (for example, I'm not sure they should get high level spells, but I also don't think they're quite 'half-casters'). The warlock has already given us a model for a class that doesn't fit the standard model though =P


Their second level ability will be a re-roll on any ability check or save, 1 per Long Rest, based off of Int.

Huh?

Belac93
2016-03-17, 03:48 PM
Well, for subclasses, I fell like we should have these:

One focused on bombs.

One focused on potions. Would be a buffer/utility, enlarge potion, healing potions, that sort of thing. Maybe could scatter crushed potion bottles on the ground as improvised caltrops?

And one focused on half casting. (Alternatively, make the entire class a half caster, and make this subclass have full casting.)

LordFluffy
2016-03-17, 04:19 PM
Do I!
Woot!



The Alchemist is up there for my favorite PF class, though it really bugged me at first - to me, an alchemist IS sort of a slow-played class.
Ideally, I agree with you. I just don't know if it works with the 5e paradigm. I don't want to build a class that has to spend all of their downtime making potions.


The trick, then, is to turn that into an adventurer, how to balance that, and to make it fun ON adventurers. I think the way you do that is by making the alchemist something like the Batman of D&D classes - they have some gadgets, some consumables, on a chassis of skills & combat training for the sort of scraps adventurers get themselves in.
We are in complete agreement here.


I mostly agree with most of these!
Feelin' the love. :)


1 - A 'real' base class should have breadth, and the ability to support numerous archetypes. I'm not sure what you're envisioning with 'half-caster' but I think it's more than fine to start with just two.
I was considering half-caster as a third subclass option, similar to Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster.


2 - Related to what I've said above, I've always felt like there were a lot of similarities between Alchemist & Artificer, and this is how I would handle much of the 'stuff to do every round' - in building a 5e alchemist, I think they should have mix of 'extract-like' potions/consumables, and then something like 'Gadgets' - I'm envisoning something vaguely like the horrible Gnome Artificer prestige class, who could build special pseudo-magic items with at will or spell trigger abilities, and this is how I would handle giving them things like cantrips I think.
I'm thinking this may be best represented as "Discoveries".


3 - Agreed, but you should think beyond that too: what spells can reasonably, fairly, and fun...ly be duplicated with alchemical creations: why shouldn't this alchemist be able to make 'fog bombs', oil of elemental weapon, etc?
No argument there. I think they should have a pretty versatle list to choose from.


4 - The universality of Spell Slots I think is a key here, & the rune scribe & the artificer Archetype (both from Unearthed Arcana) give us a template for how this should work. Rather than being able to instantly make potions, I would say that the Alchemist should get spell slots just like any other magical class, however they don't get spells known or prepared.

Instead, they get a formula book and a 'Brew Potion' ability - when they complete a short rest they can brew n (=int mod?) potions, expending their available spell slots to brew potions of any spell in their formula book. These act like normal potions and can be handed out, but when you complete a long rest, you don't recover spell slots for potions that weren't consumed unless you render those potions inert (i.e. the magic is 'reserved' unless you recover it from the potion). Maybe you can prepare any number of potions when you complete a long rest?
At this point, we're already creating two classes of potions: those they brew normally and those they brew via class ability.

I want to use the existing crafting system as much as I can. I think they should be able to create regular potions faster and work on more than one potion at a time. That said, for their "in the field" ability, to keep them from being chained to the lab, if we're going to do semi-spell slotted rapid brewed potions, why not go with the instant option and bring their instant formulas more in line with other spellcasters?


5 - I like wizard meets rogue, and I like invocations, however I can't quite envision using the warlock template. I feel like the Alch may need new class architecture to support the things they ought to be able to do (for example, I'm not sure they should get high level spells, but I also don't think they're quite 'half-casters'). The warlock has already given us a model for a class that doesn't fit the standard model though =P
Again, I don't want to reinvent the wheel, even if I don't want to just refluff. [/quote]


Huh?
A lot of classes have an ability, usually gained at 2nd level, that sets them apart: Action Surge, Cunning Action, Wild Shape, Divine Smite, etc.

Since I don't have an equivalent of the Pact Gift in mind and my thought was "This is the class that figures things out", then why not give them a cool Int related ability that represents such flashes of genius?

I was thinking of calling it Eureka. I picture it being like the time dilated scenes in Sherlock where he's sorting things out at a ridiculous pace. Once a LR seems fair, at least initially.

Thanks for the thoughts so far.

Arnakalar
2016-03-17, 10:12 PM
...I was considering half-caster as a third subclass option, similar to Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster.
Oh, I see (I usually think of that as minor caster or quartercaster) - this seems weird to me if they can already duplicate/'cast' spells via potion... so now they can brew insta-potions & cast low level spells?


I'm thinking this may be best represented as "Discoveries".
I dunno... I'm imagining something a little more elaborate/broad - though maybe that isn't good.




At this point, we're already creating two classes of potions: those they brew normally and those they brew via class ability.

I want to use the existing crafting system as much as I can. I think they should be able to create regular potions faster and work on more than one potion at a time. That said, for their "in the field" ability, to keep them from being chained to the lab, if we're going to do semi-spell slotted rapid brewed potions, why not go with the instant option and bring their instant formulas more in line with other spellcasters?

I'm not sure I totally follow your point about creating multiple classes of potions? I think to both cases both of us are talking about, there's standard (i.e. 'permanent') and 'limited quantity/duration/something'?

As far as using the existing crafting 'system' - that seems tough because the crafting system is basically non-existent. Other than saying 'you can make more mundane stuff faster/cheaper' I don't see how to develop this too much.

As far as the instant option... I don't know, I honestly just hate this. To me, 'extracts' are already tenuous 'spells but totally not guys' - if you can just say 'I waggle my fingers and say an incantation and... turn this water into a spell. It's cool though guys, I'm totally not a spellcaster' then you've gone too far. I hated that about the 3.5 Artificer too:
"I cast haste! but instead of targeting you, I target your belt."
"Oh, cool. How is that different?"
"It isn't".

I kind of hate myself for saying this, but I feel like maybe the alchemist should be a more classic Vancian spellcasting in the form of potions/extracts. It makes more sense for potions/extracts than it ever did for spells ("I brew three extracts of cure wounds" is a lot more sensible than 'I prepare three instances of this magical incantation") and it works for the Alchemist as the crazy-prepared-dude class. The advantage would be that the alchemist can prepare extracts on a short rest, and can access her entire spellformula book at any time - "Ash cultists invading from a dwarven city though lost in a volcano you say? Give me a few minutes to prep some resist energy".


Again, I don't want to reinvent the wheel, even if I don't want to just refluff.

I still don't totally follow - sorry! I can't see how you would build an alchemist on a warlock-esque chassis?


A lot of classes have an ability, usually gained at 2nd level, that sets them apart: Action Surge, Cunning Action, Wild Shape, Divine Smite, etc.

Since I don't have an equivalent of the Pact Gift in mind and my thought was "This is the class that figures things out", then why not give them a cool Int related ability that represents such flashes of genius?

I was thinking of calling it Eureka. I picture it being like the time dilated scenes in Sherlock where he's sorting things out at a ridiculous pace. Once a LR seems fair, at least initially.

Hmmm, I could see it, though a 1/LR ability that gives you a boost to a check is very different from all of those you mention. It could also make sense to have an 'investigator' themed archetype that fills this niche to some extent, if we're drawing from PF.

Anyways.

I almost wonder if it should be full 'casting' - maybe I'm wrong but half casting seems too slow (5th level spells at 17th? No polymorph til 13th!?

Hmmmm. Maybe I'll work on a couple of versions of this over the next few days.

AmbientRaven
2016-03-19, 12:46 AM
I have actually started working on an alchemist for 5e :)

My notes so far

- Class will be based around a half caster chassi
- Spell slots start at 2nd level, same time as archetype
- Select spell list that can be used to make potions. They can be made on the fly, though you only know X recipes (like sorc casting)
- "Spells" single target only, but effect is increased again (bless becomes d6 for example)
- Damage spells can only be thrown 20/40
- Custom spell list required
- Lev 6 a short rests bard style heal (brew tea?)
- Warlocks tyle pick 2 every few levels. Some abilities require X class

- 3 Archetypes; Mixer(bomber), Hyde, Spark fighter (Valor bard style, uses potions to enhance herself and her weapon)
--Second level key ability will be an infusion related to your Archetype.
---Bomber: Makes bomb hit all within 5ft
---Hyde: this makes you mr. hyde
---Spark Fighter: Hardens skin, increases reflexes ala Bladesinger wizard's song
--All Archetypes have a warlock style "pick 2" list of enhancement abilities.

---Mixer
- Further thrown range, can combine spells, more damage spells, a "cantrip" bomb useable = level+Int per day
- Enhancments include added effects to any spell (difficult terrain, splash ect.)
- Can make "spell potions" and hand them out at start of the day

---Hyde
- Shape shift form, like druid. 2 claw attacks
- Claws scal to magic ect, kind of like monk
- enhancents include wings, a tail (BA attack) that trips, a bite attack (ba), prone on claw attacks, tougher hide, more legs (resist knockdown) ect.
- Can use spell potions to enhance beast form

---Spark Fighter
- Medium armour and martial weapons
- Can infuse armour and weapons with his potions (Coat his shield in a potion that acts like shield spell)
- Expanded list for things like booming blade ect.
- Can expend a spell slot to cause +XD6(8?) Element of their choice damage ala. smite X = slot level
- Alter spells. Ex. Fireball is on weapon. on a hit roll they take the full damage, everyone else makes dex save

Rough notes so far :)

Arnakalar
2016-03-19, 03:53 PM
So here's some nonsense:

Alchemist brainstorm (https://docs.google.com/document/d/15hr1NvZM23xlByTrV9vhfFYGsf6qaHc7UZditBan2fc/edit?usp=sharing)

LordFluffy
2016-03-21, 09:07 AM
Oh, I see (I usually think of that as minor caster or quartercaster) - this seems weird to me if they can already duplicate/'cast' spells via potion... so now they can brew insta-potions & cast low level spells?
The half-caster subclass was already something I wasn't super enthused about. When you put it this way, that seals it, I think.


I dunno... I'm imagining something a little more elaborate/broad - though maybe that isn't good.
I think that as uncomplicated as 5e is, having them be discoveries works. "You develop a jetpack" or something similar fits more than developing an entire engineering system. I built a system for building firearms with options (https://docs.google.com/document/d/15Pl9okpKBl5Xo5V6Y-oN5KzhEkfwhphh4z3xPT8LY9Q/pub) and that was complicated enough. I'm not sure I want to develop a bigger system that covers everything from pocketwatches to battleships.[/quote]


I'm not sure I totally follow your point about creating multiple classes of potions? I think to both cases both of us are talking about, there's standard (i.e. 'permanent') and 'limited quantity/duration/something'?
You've encapsulated what I'm talking about: Potions that can be made by anyone with an alchemy kit and insta-potions, which you can only have so many of for reasons. One could write up alchemists as doing kit potions very fast, but then you have to explain why they can't do as many as they have materials for; for me this strains willing suspension of disbelief. I'd rather make the insta-potion the function of a magical talent as to better explain the limited resource nature and to not further make the crafting system irrelevant.


As far as using the existing crafting 'system' - that seems tough because the crafting system is basically non-existent. Other than saying 'you can make more mundane stuff faster/cheaper' I don't see how to develop this too much.
One, making things faster and cheaper is a ribbon ability. Second, I think it could be developed by expanding the list of "mundane" alchemical items. More thoughts on this below.


As far as the instant option... I don't know, I honestly just hate this.
I can understand. This is taking the alchemist from "guy with skills" to "guy with skills and some magical ability". The paradigm shift might defeat the purpose for some, but I think having the ability this way helps keep it in line with existing classes.


I kind of hate myself for saying this, but I feel like maybe the alchemist should be a more classic Vancian spellcasting in the form of potions/extracts.
My only real objection to this is that it goes against 5e design principles. I think the result would be that either alchemists would be outstripped by more flexible characters or that they would have to be so competent that they'd basically be a Rogue with some gear proficiencies talent (though I have seen alchemist written up as a Rogue subclass).


I still don't totally follow - sorry! I can't see how you would build an alchemist on a warlock-esque chassis?
Instead of cantrips, pact spells, and incantations, they'd have cantrips, infusions and discoveries. I'm mostly talking about using the class template, not any of the flavor or concepts; just the chart.


Hmmm, I could see it, though a 1/LR ability that gives you a boost to a check is very different from all of those you mention. It could also make sense to have an 'investigator' themed archetype that fills this niche to some extent, if we're drawing from PF.
Well, I'd hope it'd be different, or do mean int terms of power level/usefulness?