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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next The 5E Princess; Conversion help!



AuraTwilight
2016-03-22, 12:31 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414734-Princess-%28Base-Class-Challenge-Winner%29

Ah, one of my favorite classes of all time! Literally, I love it so much! As soon as Zaydos published it, it won my heart and soul. And then I got the chance to play it...except the GM flaked, and the GM who swooped in to save the day is comfortable with 5E.

So here's the issue. I have Zaydos' permission to do this, but he's unable to help. I've never played 5E yet, and my GM is unsure of how to balance and convert things from 3E, but will welcome a converted Princess.

So I beseech GITP for help. How would you go about converting the Princess? Ideally, I'd like it to be a base class as opposed to a subclass or archetype to something else.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-03-22, 03:59 AM
Well, I never played 3.5, so I'm not well-equipped to convert a full class from that system... but I might still be able to help. It seems to me that a lot of the ideas in Zaydos' original run parallel to this 5e Magical Girl (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444516-Base-Class-Magical-Girl-%28AKA-quot-Help-me-I-ve-done-something-terrible!-quot-%29) class by Freelance GM. It's kind of like a half-caster version of the warlock, with Cha-based unarmoured defense, magical charms, and at one point it had a subclass based around the bard's inspiration mechanic (though it looks like that might have disappeared in the latest update).

You might be able to draw on that for some inspiration. :smallsmile:

AuraTwilight
2016-03-22, 02:23 PM
Yea, I know that class and I do like it, but it has too much martial focus and the whole transformation thing, etc. My goal is to emulate being like a powerless NPC who experiences/inspires extraordinary events.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-03-22, 02:51 PM
My goal is to emulate being like a powerless NPC who experiences/inspires extraordinary events.

Ah. Well that's a hard thing to achieve in 5e; the system goes out of its way to keep the classes balanced. I'll have a think about it though... it might be possible to balance it by quantifying the benefit that other PCs get from having the Princess around.

Some vague ideas are forming... :smallconfused:

hiiamtom
2016-03-22, 03:20 PM
Bard is not far from the princess in 5e. Inspiration, healing, skills, all start by 2nd level. The College of Lore focuses eve further on using your actions to help or distract others. Even the "attack" spells are song based around vocal performances and dealing light damage to give disadvantage to an attack. With spell selection and roleplay (and the noble background) you can very effectively play the role of the princess who is no good at combat and still contribute to the game in the same ways a Princess would.

I mean if you flat converted 9 levels of spellcasting to the mystical songs than you have the Princess class just swap the 6th level Additional Magical Secrets and the 10th level Magical Secrets for the princess class abilities you like. The issue with the songs is that they focus on summoning which works way differently now. I would still recommend refluffing where necessary, but using Bard with roleplay as a princess. There's even spells like Spiritual Guardian that you can learn with those secret spells that thematically fit and are strong spells for combat.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-03-22, 06:05 PM
Okay, I've got a class based on the idea of 'helpless NPC' about half-done. I have to sleep now, but hopefully I can post it tomorrow! :smallsmile:

Edit: this now has its own thread! Please check it out here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?482608-Zaydos-Princess-Updated-for-5e&p=20583485).

AuraTwilight
2016-03-23, 02:32 PM
...Wow, I'm impressed. I look forward to the finished product!

PoeticDwarf
2016-03-23, 03:02 PM
Me too, Ninja_Prawn is one of the most respected and best homebrewers on the forum for a reason

Ninja_Prawn
2016-03-23, 05:28 PM
It's almost there now, just a couple more subclass abilities to finalise. And I need another 10 or so royal decrees. I'm open to suggestions; I think there are some serious problems with this class, but I'm not a position to see them.

Gods, but writing base classes is hard. Can I go back to spells now?

AuraTwilight
2016-03-23, 05:41 PM
Hm. I think converting a lot of the mystical songs would be useful for Royal Decrees, such as ones that emulate summoning animals or woodland beings because even nature respects your authority.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-03-23, 05:48 PM
Hm. I think converting a lot of the mystical songs would be useful for Royal Decrees, such as ones that emulate summoning animals or woodland beings because even nature respects your authority.

Yes, that would be good. It'll be tough to balance though and I've got a busy day at work tomorrow, so it might be a while before I can get them up.

hiiamtom
2016-03-24, 09:01 AM
Loyal retainer is already a feature of the noble background (literally the feature Retainers), so it seems odd to make it a class ability. It would probably make more sense to restrict the background to Noble like the archetypes in SCAG that restrict race.

The inspiration is too strong, she grants permanent d10s to rolls and grants them to everyone in the party and advances inspiration better than a bard. It's doubled on damage and more. Just way, way too strong.

I do love Aegis of Awe though, and some of the other abilities. I still think this would be better as a bardic college with the noble background.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-03-24, 09:26 AM
Loyal retainer is already a feature of the noble background (literally the feature Retainers), so it seems odd to make it a class ability. It would probably make more sense to restrict the background to Noble like the archetypes in SCAG that restrict race.

I would argue that background features aren't real things. The DM can take them away from you or use them against you at any time. Giving it as a class feature brings it into a different paradigm, whereby it has to be consistent and balanced and so on. Also, I would not be comfortable restricting the background - it just doesn't feel right. What if you're a princess-in-exile who has grown up in the streets (like Dany from ASOIAF) or maybe smuggled away to some secret hiding place?

Also, I like the idea of a Princess with a lot of hangers-on! Handmaidens, retainers, animal pals, champions, hirelings and random people she's browbeaten into following her via Royal Decree... A proper travelling circus court.

I could change the name though, to avoid confusion/conflict. Maybe Loyal Handmaiden?


The inspiration is too strong, she grants permanent d10s to rolls and grants them to everyone in the party and advances inspiration better than a bard. It's doubled on damage and more. Just way, way too strong.

I spent all last night doing the maths, and I reckon it's actually woefully underpowered. It's supposed to be stronger than Bardic Inspiration, because it is actually competing with Sneak Attack, Extra Attack and Divine Smite. Note as well that the Princess Inspiration is an action, not a bonus action, and a (single-classed) princess doesn't have any other abilities that scale with the power curve. And giving it to everyone in the party is a once per short rest ability - that's her Action Surge/Channel Divinity. It's not permanent - the dice only last for one round.

I reckon choosing between +1d8 to hit and +2d8 to damage is still going to a tricky choice - and decision points are good, right?


I still think this would be better as a bardic college with the noble background.

I agree, but the OP wants a "helpless" support character. As much as a noble bard is an easier, neater fit for the fluff, it is still a full-caster and therefore does not hit the required 'tone'.

AuraTwilight
2016-03-24, 05:50 PM
I'd also point out that the originally intended fluff doesn't restrict the Princess to being an actual nobility, pointing to examples like Alice, Little Red Riding Hood, and every other archetype of the beautiful in mind and body unskilled girl who gets by on wisdom and virtue.

So, yea, don't restrict it by backround, and if anything offer an alternative feature for those who don't want the free hireling?

Ninja_Prawn
2016-03-25, 09:21 AM
Okay, my version of the class now has its own thread. Please see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?482608-Zaydos-Princess-Updated-for-5e&p=20583485)!

Oh, and I added a paragraph to the Loyal Companion (formerly Loyal Retainer) that allows for them to be left behind. So you don't have to have one following you around, but you still gain background benefits. Could easily be fluffed as a butler for a classic princess, an underworld contact for a rebellious or fallen princess or a tutor for a magical princess.

hiiamtom
2016-03-25, 10:32 AM
@Aura: The thing is that you are far from helpless just between your stats and ability to wield a dagger. You are going to have to divorce your character choices from the game mechanics at some point, and the princess fits 3.X a lot better where you are basically useless without spells or combat class abilities and feats. No matter what "princess" you play, you are going to be capable in some capacity just having class levels. You're going to have to select a background and roleplay the character as helpless. Sure by later levels you are weaker but you class abilities should make up the difference in other ways.

@Ninja: I was being very critical trying to help. I understand the challenges and expectations, but I think a "true" conversion is hard because the expectation of PCs. I also strongly disagree that backgrounds are something the DM can take away, they are literally class features chosen at character creation. He can't take a proficiency or skill away, so taking a background feature away is horrible fiat. That said, if you made a base class I would still make a spell-less bard. I can't do tables easily, but let's see...

Hit Dice: 1d8 per level
Hit Points at 1st level: 8 + Con
Hit Points at higher: 1d8 (or 5) + Con per level

Armor: None
Weapons: Daggers, darts, hand crossbows, light crossbows, shortbows, whips
Tools: Three choices from artisan's tools, gaming sets, and musical instruments of your choice

Saving Throws: Wisdom, Charisma
Skills: Choose any three

Equipment
(a) a dagger or (b) a whip,
A tool of your choice,
(a) 2 books of lore, (b) a riding horse and riding saddle, (c) a hand crossbow and a case of 20 bolts,
A set of fine clothes and a signet ring,
(a) a diplomats pack or (b) a scholar's pack.


This list comes from common "known" equipment for gentry, and even if not a noble represents "princess" sporting activities like archery, reading, riding, or crafting.

Table up to level 8 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ycUwF8jnwZmdJgWlCpLk2YwwPWnKf1HCXe3aqtPMyhs/edit?usp=sharing)

Royal decrees become a number known, and a number "spoken" between short or long rests. This way they are a bit more flexible and apply to a given situation.

Inspiration directly copies bardic inspiration.

Jane of all trades is Jack of all Trades - all princesses are considered "able" in skill and educated.

Graces becomes a list of abilities chosen to further inspiration and customize the type of princess ("retainers", "animal friends", etc. go here along with inspiration to damage or other type abilities).

Aura of inspiration is an option to give an area of inspiration centered on the princess, maybe a 5ft around her? It isn't limited by short/long rest, just changes the battle tactic for inspiration.

The rest I copied from Ninja_Prawn.

And yes, I basically mushed a warlock and bard together shamelessly. I also tried to be considerate to the desired design while preserving 5e systems and development. Graces are paced like maneuvers since they are optionally fueled by inspiration, decrees move at half (rounded up) warlock spells pace, the use of decrees copies warlocks, etc.

I really intend to help refine things and make a conversion, not just be derisive.

AuraTwilight
2016-03-25, 03:13 PM
@Aura: The thing is that you are far from helpless just between your stats and ability to wield a dagger. You are going to have to divorce your character choices from the game mechanics at some point, and the princess fits 3.X a lot better where you are basically useless without spells or combat class abilities and feats. No matter what "princess" you play, you are going to be capable in some capacity just having class levels. You're going to have to select a background and roleplay the character as helpless. Sure by later levels you are weaker but you class abilities should make up the difference in other ways.

I'm fully aware; but I find the 3.X Princess mechanically interesting in a way that 5E currently doesn't cater to. A Bard is really close, but doesn't stress some of the parts that make the class appealing to me.


I appreciate your contributions and your own version of the Princess looks interesting so far. I'd like to see where Graces are going, design-wise.