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View Full Version : Balance of enhance ability buff



quinron
2016-03-25, 06:13 PM
Enhance ability is only good for ability checks; I don't foresee a lot of combat-oriented sorcerers taking it. How would it affect balance if it granted advantage on attack rolls and/or if it imposed disadvantage on saving throws against abilities/spells that use the corresponding ability? This seems like it would be a pretty well-balanced tweak; is there anyone that already uses one or both of these rules and can speak to how it's affected their game?

PeteNutButter
2016-03-25, 06:33 PM
Enhance ability is only good for ability checks; I don't foresee a lot of combat-oriented sorcerers taking it. How would it affect balance if it granted advantage on attack rolls and/or if it imposed disadvantage on saving throws against abilities/spells that use the corresponding ability? This seems like it would be a pretty well-balanced tweak; is there anyone that already uses one or both of these rules and can speak to how it's affected their game?

It is relatively weak, but it has its niche uses. Giving a grappler/shield master advantage on his athletics is pretty darn good if he can't get it through raging. Initiative is a dex check assuming you have it up already.

I'd say your proposed changes might be a bit too strong, but it's hard to say until tested. Compared to faerie fire it has no saving throw for the fighter's bull str. It is a higher level spell though. Having it on a PC instead of an enemy can be better or worse situational.

I'd say an hour of advantage on attacks is too strong for a level 2 spell. Maybe just have it give a +1 to the stat, like a weak version of the 3.5 spells. That'd make it pretty unique in that it only benefits odd stats. Giving it +2 would be too strong, for its duration. +1 to hit and damage is about as good as magic weapon but with an hour duration.

RickAllison
2016-03-25, 06:47 PM
One buff that would make it better without homebrewing much to risk breaking the game would be just letting them switch the buff that's on with an action.

SharkForce
2016-03-25, 10:14 PM
i don't think it needs anything. it's a pretty good spell, really. if it isn't absolutely amazing for a combat sorcerer, well... it's a buff spell. what were you expecting? lots of spells are not very good for a combat sorcerer. that doesn't mean they need to be "fixed". it just means they're not necessarily what you want in combat. which is perfectly fine.

giving disadvantage on saving throws against abilities would be hilariously overpowered. do you know hard it is to give a penalty like that to enemy saving throws? and you're just going to hand it out willy-nilly to a spell that is already pretty good?

RickAllison
2016-03-25, 10:39 PM
i don't think it needs anything. it's a pretty good spell, really. if it isn't absolutely amazing for a combat sorcerer, well... it's a buff spell. what were you expecting? lots of spells are not very good for a combat sorcerer. that doesn't mean they need to be "fixed". it just means they're not necessarily what you want in combat. which is perfectly fine.

giving disadvantage on saving throws against abilities would be hilariously overpowered. do you know hard it is to give a penalty like that to enemy saving throws? and you're just going to hand it out willy-nilly to a spell that is already pretty good?

Isn't that an Arcane Trickster class feature that they only get when hidden?

SharkForce
2016-03-25, 10:56 PM
Isn't that an Arcane Trickster class feature that they only get when hidden?

yeah, 9 levels in a think. also eldritch knights, but only against enemies they've hit, and again at level 9.

with the trade-off being that they don't get high level spells, have to give up a lot more to invest heavily in int, and are limited in schools quite harshly.

also, a sorcerer can give that to one saving throw for one enemy if they take the heighten metamagic and spend 3 SP, and the bestow curse spell can give it, but only to a single target, and you must first land bestow curse successfully.

all of those come with some pretty hefty requirements that suggest to me it would be extremely unwise to just hand it out casually in a level 2 spell. *maybe* in a very high level spell.

Ashrym
2016-03-26, 02:21 PM
i don't think it needs anything. it's a pretty good spell, really. if it isn't absolutely amazing for a combat sorcerer, well... it's a buff spell. what were you expecting? lots of spells are not very good for a combat sorcerer. that doesn't mean they need to be "fixed". it just means they're not necessarily what you want in combat. which is perfectly fine.

giving disadvantage on saving throws against abilities would be hilariously overpowered. do you know hard it is to give a penalty like that to enemy saving throws? and you're just going to hand it out willy-nilly to a spell that is already pretty good?

Agreed. I think the spell has enough combat application with cat's grace, tbh, because of the initiative check, and it's great for out of combat application.

quinron
2016-03-26, 05:22 PM
i don't think it needs anything. it's a pretty good spell, really. if it isn't absolutely amazing for a combat sorcerer, well... it's a buff spell. what were you expecting? lots of spells are not very good for a combat sorcerer. that doesn't mean they need to be "fixed". it just means they're not necessarily what you want in combat. which is perfectly fine.

giving disadvantage on saving throws against abilities would be hilariously overpowered. do you know hard it is to give a penalty like that to enemy saving throws? and you're just going to hand it out willy-nilly to a spell that is already pretty good?

That's why I asked. That was the part that I figured would be most imbalancing; I probably should've thought a little more critically when I realized the other option - giving a +4 or +5 to the save DC to reflect the average advantage bonus - was utterly absurd.

I'm running a 5e game with a buff-oriented sorcerer for the first time, so I wanted to know why she'd want to take this instead of something else. Now I can see how, combat-wise, it would help grapplers and rogues looking to hide reliably (both of which the party has) and how useful the bonuses to knowledge and Perception and Charisma checks are when you're not in combat.

I think I'm just too familiar with the 3.5/PF versions of the equivalent spells - the first game I ever played, the wizard would slap one or more on every single party member whenever a fight broke out. Of course, that whole game was nothing but a long string of fights anyway; we didn't really have a chance to see the non-combat applications of anything.