Sublime Varients

[TheOOB]

In my next game, I'm planning on houseruling in that all martial classes use the ToB, to help keep them balanced with casters, however I want players to have access to more then three classes, so heres my attempt to convert the base martial classes to ToB.

At the moment I have only completed the rogue and the fighter, assuming everyone doesn't hate what I've done so far I'll do the barbarian, ranger, and paladin as well.

Sublime Fighter

Class Features
The sublime fighter is identical to the fighter class in all ways except as noted below.

Hit Die: Reduce to d8

Class Skills: Add balance, concentration, diplomacy, hide, listen, move silently, sense motive, spot, and tumble to the fighter class skill list.

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier)x4

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Saving Throws: At level 1 a sublime fighter chooses one of their saves to be their good saving throw and their other two as bad saving throws. Once made this choice may not be changed.

Maneuvers Readied/Known/Recovery: As swordsage

Stances Known: As swordsage

Disciplines: At 1st level a sublime fighter may choose any 4 disciplines to be available to them. Once mad this choice may not be changed.

Improved Weapon Aptitude(Ex): This ability, gained at first level, functions identically to the warblades weapon Aptitude ability except that the sublime fighters effective fighter level is equal to their class level.

Bonus Feats: A sublime fighter gets one bonus feat of their choice at first level, and every three levels thereafter(4th, 7th, 10th, ect). These feats must be selected from the feats available to fighters, and they must met all prerequisites for the feats.

Striking Mastery: Staring at level 20, the saving throw DC of all strike type Maneuvers used with a weapon for which the sublime fighter has the weapon specialization feat increases by 1. This bonus increases to +2 if the sublime fighter has greater weapon specialization in the selected weapon.

Sublime Rogue

Class Features
The sublime rogue is identical to the rogue class in all ways except as noted below.

Class Skills: Add concentration to the sublime rogues skill list

Maneuvers Readied/Known/Recovery: As warblade

Staces Known: As warblade

Disciplines: Sublime rogues has access to the Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, and Tiger Clawdisciplines.

Sneak Attack: Sublime rogues start with +1d6 sneak attack damage at 1st level, and gain an additional 1d6 every three levels thereafter (4th, 7th, 10th, ect.)

Trap Sense: Sublime Rogues do not get this class feature

Subtle Strike: Starting at level 20, the saving throw DC of all strike type maneuvers increases by 2 if the sublime rogue makes a sneak attack as part of the manuver.

[Matthew]

Well, whilst I am not terribly familiar with Tome of Battle, this looks mechanically reasonable to me.

[TheOOB]

And more


Sublime Ranger

Class Features
The sublime ranger is identical to the ranger class in all ways except as noted below.

Class Skills: Add intimidate, and tumble

Maneuvers Readied/Known/Recovery: As crusader

Staces Known: As crusader

Disciplines: Sublime rangers have access to the Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, Shadow Hand, and Tiger Claw

Spells: Sublime rangers gain no ability to cast spells

Favored Strike: Starting at 20th level, the save DC of all of a sublime rangers strike type manuvers increases by 2 when used agienst a favored enemy.


Sublime Barbarian

Class Features
The sublime barbarian is identical to the barbarian class in all ways except as noted below.

Class Skills: Add balance, diplomacy, and sense motive to the barbarian class skill list,

Maneuvers Readied/Known/Recovery: As warblade

Staces Known: As warblade

Disciplines: Sublime barbarians has access to the Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, Tiger's Claw, and White Raven

Trap Sense: Sublime Barbarians do not get this class feature.

Damage Reduction: Sublime Barbarians do not get this class feature.

Raging Strike: Starting at level 20, the saving throw DC of all strike type maneuvers increases by 2 when the sublime barbarian is in a rage.

[Raum]

The problem I see is simply that you've made the "sublime" classes more powerful than the ToB classes. So why would anyone want to play a standard ToB class?

For example, the sublime fighter gains bonus feats, full BAB, and d10 HD while gaining a full swordsage maneuver progression. Better actually, he can choose the disciplines he wants. Why would anyone play a swordsage now? They'd lose feats, HD, and BAB just to gain one extra good save.

The other classes seem to be similarly boosted. I'd recommend creating one or more partial maneuver progressions and limiting the discipline choices to only one or two. That gives the PHB classes a focused boost while retaining the ToB classes as the premier maneuver using classes.

[Joltz]

The problem I see is simply that you've made the "sublime" classes more powerful than the ToB classes. So why would anyone want to play a standard ToB class?

I agree. I'm positive the sublime classes here are more powerful than the martial adept classes listed in the tome of battle.

You should tone down the sublime fighter's maneuvers and stances to warblade progression and define their available disciplines. You may also want to reduce their feat progression further and define their good save (keep it fort imo)

The sublime rogue looks a little more balanced. My biggest problem is, who's gonna deal with traps now? You can probably leave the rogue class alone and let people get martial maneuvers by multiclassing. If you really want all the basic melee classes to have maneuvers though, you should probably take out the rogue special abilites (turn them into feats with a rogue level requirement?) leave trapsense though. You might want to invent a slower maneuver/stance progression as well.

Sublime rangers are almost right... The loss of their little bit of spellcasting doesn't quite balance the great maneuvers they can get. I think if you remove the animal companion class feature as well it'll work out.

Sublime barbarians are crazy. All they lost was a measly bonus against traps. You might get it to balance out if you nerf their DR and rage. You probably shouldn't remove any abilities other than trapsense completely because they're an integral part of the barbarian class, but I think you can reduce the DR progression and rages/day (and maybe rage bonuses) safely enough.

As for the paladin, that's already covered by the crusader class. That's one class that I really think you shouldn't make a sublime variant of because it's already there. Something that would probably work well is to allow paladins to freely multiclass between paladin and crusader and have paladin levels count as full initiator levels for the purpose of learning/intitiating crusader maneuvers.

[Fax Celestis]

You should tone down the sublime fighter's maneuvers and stances to warblade progression and define their available disciplines. You may also want to reduce their feat progression further and define their good save (keep it fort imo)

Either that, or drop them to a d8. As it is, Warblade gets equal disciplines, better HD, equal BAB, better saves. The only difference is figher's versatility versus warblade's maneuver-focus--which is how it should be.


The sublime rogue looks a little more balanced. My biggest problem is, who's gonna deal with traps now? You can probably leave the rogue class alone and let people get martial maneuvers by multiclassing. If you really want all the basic melee classes to have maneuvers though, you should probably take out the rogue special abilites (turn them into feats with a rogue level requirement?) leave trapsense though. You might want to invent a slower maneuver/stance progression as well. He didn't say trapfinding, he said trap sense. Trapfinding lets you deal with magical traps. Trap Sense gives you a mildly better AC versus traps.

I would, however, take White Raven from rogues. White Raven is for leaders, something that rogues, as an archetype, generally are not.


Sublime rangers are almost right... The loss of their little bit of spellcasting doesn't quite balance the great maneuvers they can get. I think if you remove the animal companion class feature as well it'll work out.

Sublime ranger's fine.


Sublime barbarians are crazy. All they lost was a measly bonus against traps. You might get it to balance out if you nerf their DR and rage. You probably shouldn't remove any abilities other than trapsense completely because they're an integral part of the barbarian class, but I think you can reduce the DR progression and rages/day (and maybe rage bonuses) safely enough.

I would say remove the DR in addition to the trap sense. You're replacing it with Iron Heart, after all.


As for the paladin, that's already covered by the crusader class. That's one class that I really think you shouldn't make a sublime variant of because it's already there. Something that would probably work well is to allow paladins to freely multiclass between paladin and crusader and have paladin levels count as full initiator levels for the purpose of learning/intitiating crusader maneuvers.

Reasonable.

[TheOOB]

I was mostly concerned with the sublime fighters power level, I want to keep the class as versitile as possible, but I don't want it to overshadow the warblade. As it stands the fighter has less hp, less unique special abilities, a much much worse capstone, and one less disipline. I think I'll take Fax's suggestion, and make their HD d8 to tone them down a little. The warblade allready has a but more in terms of raw power, so the fighter needs to retain it's versitility.

I'm a little lothe to remove white raven from the rogues, rogues gain all the social skills, and the charismatic rogue is a fairly common archtype, so white raven makes some sense, though I suppose desert wind might make more sense, rogues arn't paticularly magical, but the movement abilities are good for them.

Rangers are allready a fairly weak class, the removal of spells is more of a formality so a base class doesn't utilize two magic systems. The ranger base abilities also don't have a great deal of synnergy with manuvers, so I think the class is, if anything, weaker then most others, even with the inclusion of devoted spirit.

Barbarians, also, are a kinda weak class to begin with, though I suppose taking out the damage reduction would help to balance them out a little.

As for paladins, it would be difficult to create a sublime paladin that wouldn't be really really similar to a crusader. I suppose you could make it use warblade progression and like give it devoted spirit, diamond mind, stone dragon, and white raven, but thats a stretch. I think paladins are much better balanced by increasing their magical abilities then by giving them martial adept capabilities (in fact thats the idea behind the Dawnblade class in my sig).