INT for Initiative?

[TripleD]

Wondering if anyone has tried using INT instead of DEX as the basis for initiative and, if so, how did it work out?

Mechanical Justification
Dex is by far the most useful stat to increase in 5e, while INT is at best situational for anyone who isn't a wizard or eldritch knight. Moving an ability from one to the other balances things out a bit, and helps people going for a flavorful build, like a super scientific Ranger, feel like they aren't wasting their time by boosting INT a bit.

Flavour Justification
You could make a case for DEX, INT, or WIS being used for initiative. Initiative is basically a saving throw, so it all depends on how you interpret the saving throws for each stat:

DEX: A measure of reflexes. Your body's ability to physically get itself out of obvious danger (e.g. diving away from a fireball)
INT: Not really defined in the Player's Handbook, but can be inferred to be a snap decision, or a time when you use reason and logic to override your emotions (e.g. choosing the correct passageway when running out of a maze). INT saves and checks are tricky, since they usually represent choices the players should be making, not the characters.
WIS: Sensing that something is wrong or out of place. A sort of gut instinct that is not based on any logical deduction (e.g. realizing that an illusion is not real)

Of all these, I feel that INT actually makes the most sense for initiative. Just personal interpretation, but I see initiative as realizing, based on what is going on around you, that you need to act. It's something mental, not physical, and unlike wisdom is based on thought processes you can fully understand.
Plus, if I may dip back into the mechanical, WIS is already used for Perception, the most used skill in the game, so I don't feel like it needs anymore boosting.

[ericgrau]

Why not both similar to reflex saves? I think the point has come up often.

Mental stats in general tend to be bad for those who don't have a specific application for them.

[Oramac]

Wondering if anyone has tried using INT instead of DEX as the basis for initiative and, if so, how did it work out?

snip

Essentially, you're saying that Int is a representation of Situational Awareness (http://www.artofmanliness.com/2015/02/05/how-to-develop-the-situational-awareness-of-jason-bourne/).

I would agree, with the caveat that in the real world both Wisdom and Dexterity contribute to it as well.

Mechanically, though, I can see the logic of using Int for Initiative.

[LordFluffy]

I suggested this on Reddit once and got a bunch of freaking out followed by one big point, which is that a lot of monsters have good dex and low int, especially when we're talking about beasts. Unless you want to a do a lot of bookkeeping and maybe invent a quality that will make up for the difference, you have to deal with every PC being likely to get the drop on lions, tigers and bears.

[Oramac]

I suggested this on Reddit once and got a bunch of freaking out followed by one big point, which is that a lot of monsters have good dex and low int, especially when we're talking about beasts. Unless you want to a do a lot of bookkeeping and maybe invent a quality that will make up for the difference, you have to deal with every PC being likely to get the drop on lions, tigers and bears.

Simple. Just say that a PC's and NPC's initiative is determined by their choice of Dex, Int, or Wis.

That way, the Big Dumb Fighter and all the lions and tigers and bears (oh my) can still use Dex, the smart people can use Int, and the wise people can use Wis.

No matter which they use, no player is ever going to have more than a +5 to initiative from their stat (not counting Feats), and Monsters should still be able to compete since they can also use their highest stat of the three.

Of course, probably the best option is to just leave well enough alone and not change a thing.

[JBPuffin]

I'd recommend starting a campaign with that rule - it gives Intelligence some love, although if there are any wizards in the party they will likely be going first (+3 to 5 instead of +2).

[TripleD]

Thanks for all the suggestions.



Why not both similar to reflex saves? I think the point has come up often.


I'm a bit confused. Was this a 4e thing? I never got a chance to play that edition.



Essentially, you're saying that Int is a representation of Situational Awareness.


More or less yes. You're taking in your surroundings and choosing to act. But then you get into the field of "instinct" and the fuzzy line between WIS and INT. Not to mention your physical ability to act on the impulse (a.k.a. DEX).

Like you said:



Mechanically, though, I can see the logic of using Int for Initiative.


it really is more a case of fluff supporting crunch than the other way around. DEX, INT, and WIS, can all be argued for initiative. Since INT grants the least mechanical benefit and DEX the most, I figured shifting it over would be a nice bit of balance.


I suggested this on Reddit once and got a bunch of freaking out followed by one big point, which is that a lot of monsters have good dex and low int, especially when we're talking about beasts. Unless you want to a do a lot of bookkeeping and maybe invent a quality that will make up for the difference, you have to deal with every PC being likely to get the drop on lions, tigers and bears.

I'm actually okay with that. The thing about beasts is... they're animals. Initiative is all about (essentially) a fair fight, something anathema to nature. I feel like lions, tigers, and other beasts should essentially fight like weaponless goblins: sneak up (high DEX) and hit the "weakest" party members hard. Unlike goblins though, beasts also tend to have high WIS (or at least perception bonuses) which makes it more difficult for party members to gain surprise. I don't think it will be that big an issue in practice, although only a field test will tell.



Of course, probably the best option is to just leave well enough alone and not change a thing.


True there's nothing wrong with using DEX for initiative, and, as you pointed out, no one will ever have more than +5 from a stat alone. But INT is one of those stats that many people want to use but can't justify putting points in it. It's also difficult to integrate into the game since so many of the things your character would use it for (solving puzzles, making plans, etc.) are things you need to do as a player.
Initiative is one of the few things you could reason as an INT save. It's also the least important thing influenced by DEX, so switching it over seemed like an easy way to make INT a bit more relevant.



I'd recommend starting a campaign with that rule - it gives Intelligence some love, although if there are any wizards in the party they will likely be going first (+3 to 5 instead of +2).


I'm hoping to use it in an upcoming session for new players (if it ever gets off the ground).
The wizard is an unintended side effect (boosting an already powerful class), but I'm tinkering around with a spell-less Ranger rebuild that is based around DEX and INT instead of DEX and WIS (tracking would be moved under 'investigation', along with a mess of other changes) that would really benefit from this.

[DanyBallon]

I suggested this on Reddit once and got a bunch of freaking out followed by one big point, which is that a lot of monsters have good dex and low int, especially when we're talking about beasts. Unless you want to a do a lot of bookkeeping and maybe invent a quality that will make up for the difference, you have to deal with every PC being likely to get the drop on lions, tigers and bears.

It shouldn't matter much as monsters and NPCs stats don't have a rigid set of rules.
You could still leave the actual Initiative score for monsters and NPCs and yet say that Initiative is related to INT for PCs.

[hiiamtom]

RuneQuest improves the standard D&D attribute system by using combinations of two attributes for skills and averages between two for things like initiative. Initiative (Strike Rank in RQ) is determined by the average between a player's Dexterity and Intelligence. HP is determined by Size and Constitution.

You have six ability scores, each score determines 1 thing about a character and each combination determines another.

[SilverStud]

I like the suggestion of players choosing between Dex, Wis, and Int for initiative. Because honestly all three contribute to the concept. High Int? Your character analyzed the situation and came to a conclusion very quickly. High Wis? Your character felt something off and was ready to act. High Dex? Your character's body reacted with speed an precision.

Also, on the topic of wizard supremacy. I think it's mostly an issue with enemy behavior. Wizards who dominate the battlefield with ultimate spell wreckage can only do so when unmolested. Seriously. No one is squishier. Why does the small army of devils ignore the spellslinger in the back? I can understand if you were fighting beasts, but intelligent creatures, like humans or MOST high CR monsters? Instinct guides creatures to attack the skinny one in robes before the hulk in plate. Common sense dictates that you take out the guy with the big guns first.

In conclusion, DMs forget how fights work, and so the wizard dominates. I say that as a DM who constantly forgets, and then wonders why afterward.

[DanyBallon]

I like the suggestion of players choosing between Dex, Wis, and Int for initiative. Because honestly all three contribute to the concept. High Int? Your character analyzed the situation and came to a conclusion very quickly. High Wis? Your character felt something off and was ready to act. High Dex? Your character's body reacted with speed an precision.

Would Initiative being the average (round up? down?) between Dex, Int and Wis modifiers be too complicated for 5e?

Would it be too MAD?

I feel that having high initiative would be a bit harder to come by. The Alert feat would be even more interesting for characters that want to reach the highest Initiative possible.

[Oramac]

Would Initiative being the average (round up? down?) between Dex, Int and Wis modifiers be too complicated for 5e?

Would it be too MAD?

I feel that having high initiative would be a bit harder to come by. The Alert feat would be even more interesting for characters that want to reach the highest Initiative possible.

The average could be done, certainly, but it would probably bee too complicated. If you had a Barbarian with 16 dex, 10 wis, and 8 int, you'd have (3 + 0 + (-1))/3 = .6666 for your initiative.

It'd be simpler to just have the players choose one of the three stats.

Or another option is to just use the total of the three stats to represent them all applying to situational awareness. With the Barbarian above, he'd have a +2 initiative. Much easier to calculate.