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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class The Madness Disciple (Class in 30 minutes; PEACH)



Jormengand
2016-03-29, 08:26 AM
This class... is basically me being a class. As such, it's... probably not gonna be fun to read. But I'd like it if someone took a moment to do it anyway.


The Madness Disciple
"Madness isn't beautiful. Madness is a struggle to survive, to tolerate the derision of people around you. To try to act like you're normal, because if you didn't, you would be cast out. Madness isn't beautiful; it's horrible. But for me, it's reality."


LevelBABFortRefWillSpecial
1st+1+2+2+0Antipathy
2nd+2+3+3+0Delusion
3rd+3+3+3+1Detachment
4th+4+4+4+1Mirage
5th+5+4+4+1Psychopathy
6th+6/+1+5+5+2Paranoia
7th+7/+2+5+5+2Disinterest
8th+8/+3+6+6+2Hallucination
9th+9/+4+6+6+3Sociopathy
10th+10/+5+7+7+3Schizophrenia
11th+11/+6/+1+7+7+3Lethargy
12th+12/+7/+2+8+8+4Delirium
13th+13/+8/+3+8+8+4Neuropathy
14th+14/+9/+4+9+9+4Psychosis
15th+15/+10/+5+9+9+5Torpor
16th+16/+11/+6/+1+10+10+5Dementia
17th+17/+12/+7/+2+10+10+5Encephalopathy
18th+18/+13/+8/+3+11+11+6Mania
19th+19/+14/+9/+4+11+11+6Catatonia
20th+20/+15/+10/+5+12+12+6Insanity

Alignment: Chaotic neutral or true neutral. If your alignment is not one of these, you can still be a madness disciple, but your alignment immediately changes the smallest amount to match. Madness disciples can never change their alignment to another alignment or bring themselves to act in accordance with another one.
Special: Must have an intelligence score, and that score must be at least 8.
Special: Can't be an undead or construct, not even an intelligent undead or living construct.
Hit Die: 1d6

Class Skills:
The class skills of the madness disciple (and the key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis (Int)*, Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Disguise (Cha), Hide (Dex), Listen (Int)*, Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Int)* and Survival (Int)*.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

*Skill normally wisdom-based but is intelligence-based for a madness disciple.

Weapon and Armour Proficiency
Madness disciples are proficient in all simple and martial weapons and no kind of armour and shield. They fight by rushing in with the biggest weapon they can get their hands on.

Note on save DCs
The save DC against a madness disciple's ability is 10 + 1/2 the madness disciple's level + the madness disciple's charisma modifier.

Antipathy (Ex)
I hate you! I hate everything you stand for! And I hate your uptight sense of honour!

A madness disciple is always a little bit unhinged. Whenever it attacks, it takes a will save. For each point by which it fails, it adds +1 to attack and damage rolls.

Delusion (Ex)
You're all against me...

From second level, a madness disciple is certain that someone will hurt it. Whenever attacked, it takes a will save and adds the amount by which it failed to its armour class.

Detachment (Ex)
Mm? Sorry, what did you say?

From third level, a madness disciple doesn't care about most things. It is immune to mind-affecting abilities.

Mirage (Ex)
Nice illusion. Not as realistic as the ones I make for myself, though...

From fourth level, a madness disciple automatically disbelieves illusions, even if they're not actually illusion school effects. Spells such as invisibility can't actually be disbelieved, though.

Psychopathy (Ex)
I will END you!

From fifth level, madness disciples can choose to take a penalty on will saves equal to half their class level.

Paranoia (Ex)
They're everywhere! Everywhere!

From sixth level, a madness disciple takes a will save at the start of combat, and adds half the amount by which it failed to its initiative roll.

Disinterest (Ex)
Oh, you're trying to kill me? That's nice.

From seventh level, a madness disciple, whenever it would take a will save that it benefits from passing, can opt to reverse the effects of passing and failing.

Hallucination (Ex)
None of this is really hurting me...

From eighth level, a madness disciple takes a will save when damaged and reduces the damage by half the amount failed.

Sociopathy (Ex)
You know what the fun thing about you being a monster is? It means I can kill you with no regrets!

From ninth level, the effects of the madness disciple's antipathy are multiplied by 1.5.

Schizophrenia (Ex)
My plan is flawless! The only thing that can mess it up is... you! Yes, you, right there, with the hat. Don't think I don't see you.

From 10th level, the effects of the madness disciple's delusion are doubled, and it can't be caught flat-footed.

Lethargy (Ex)
You know what? I don't really feel like showing up in that scrying spell...

From 11th level, madness disciples are unaffected by negative illusion, divination, enchantment, telepathy and clairsentience abilities.

Delirium (Ex)
I've decided that we need to go... that way! Come on, come on, try to keep up!

From 12th level, madness disciples roll a will save every time they take a skill check, and add half the amount by which they failed to the skill check result. Roll the save even if you're taking 10 or 20.

Neuropathy (Ex)
I can't even see straight any more, but I can see where you are to stab you!

From 13th level, madness disciples can finish a charge with a full attack, and don't take attacks of opportunity for any reason.

Psychosis (Ex)
Come on, try to hit me, I dare you!

From 14th level, the madness disciple gets a free attack against its aggressor whenever it is missed with an attack, or it passes a save against a hostile effect. This assumes that the madness disciple can actually make the attack, of course; if it can't, then it doesn't suddenly gain the ability to.

Torpor (Ex)
No. No. Stop.

From 15th level, the madness disciple can't be moved, prevented from moving, knocked prone, or made flat-footed.

Dementia (Ex)
Nothing is true! Everything is permitted!

From 16th level, the madness disciple is immune to hostile magic.

Encephalopathy (Ex)
Uh... hah... HAHAHAHA!

From 17th level, whenever the madness disciple makes a full attack, it makes a will save. It gets a bonus attack for every five points by which it failed.

Mania (Ex)
It doesn't hurt... not as much as I'm about to hurt you, anyway...

From 18th level, all damage the madness disciple takes is nonlethal, so very little short of knocking it out and using a coup de grace attack on it will kill it.

Catatonia (Ex)
Mmm...

From 19th level, the madness disciple is immune to all effects except direct damage and effects which would kill it outright.

Insanity (Ex)
Whee~

From 20th level, the madness disciple's will save-based abilities are twice as effective, with the exception of Encephalopathy, because that would be a bit too much.

nikkoli
2016-03-29, 05:57 PM
So. Um. Yes. This is glorious.
Are attacks from Encephalopathy at full BAB?
This is just so different it's astounding. Like should one of my PCs run catches a case of the deads I will see if I can make a little you as my next character. I've got a character on table that is spared for gestalt that this would 100% fit his backstory. You get a high five for this. Or like 100 high fives if your hand would survive that.

LastCenturion
2016-03-29, 06:10 PM
Umm... what did I just read? I mean that in the best possible way, but really. This also seems a little bit over powered, although not quite so much at lower levels. It could perhaps be tuned down a little bit, or have a small class benefit towards will saves. Other than it's OP-ness, though, it's beautifully hilarious. 5 stars.

nikkoli
2016-03-29, 06:12 PM
I do forsee someone getting angry because of the names yoy have selected for the abilities is the only fluff downside

ImperatorV
2016-03-29, 10:09 PM
Oof. That one hit close to home. You're a lot higher level then me though.

I'd assume the fluff downside would be having to roleplay all these. Will be bad for your party too, especially at higher levels.

Jormengand
2016-03-30, 04:04 AM
So. Um. Yes. This is glorious.
Are attacks from Encephalopathy at full BAB?
This is just so different it's astounding. Like should one of my PCs run catches a case of the deads I will see if I can make a little you as my next character. I've got a character on table that is spared for gestalt that this would 100% fit his backstory. You get a high five for this. Or like 100 high fives if your hand would survive that.

Extra attacks, whether from temporal spiral, haste, speed weapons or encephalopathy are full-bab unless specified otherwise.


Umm... what did I just read? I mean that in the best possible way, but really. This also seems a little bit over powered, although not quite so much at lower levels. It could perhaps be tuned down a little bit, or have a small class benefit towards will saves. Other than it's OP-ness, though, it's beautifully hilarious. 5 stars.

Ehh. Yeah, encephalopathy lets you make a buttload of attacks, but a half-decent wizard can do more damage than you.


I do forsee someone getting angry because of the names yoy have selected for the abilities is the only fluff downside

Mmm... maybe. A lot of the things are things that actually affect me, though, so if anyone should be offended, it's mainly myself. I admit to not suffering from - you know, I'm not actually gonna try to spell that word again - but lots of the others I do.


Oof. That one hit close to home. You're a lot higher level then me though.
Uhm... hugs?


I'd assume the fluff downside would be having to roleplay all these. Will be bad for your party too, especially at higher levels.

Mm, yeah. You can make a pretty cool paranoid, mildly insane character (See: Edwin Tevoran) and even a pretty cool psychopathic maniac (See: Ysobel Tevoran) if you try, though.

thedarkstone
2016-04-04, 12:15 AM
Mania (Ex)
It doesn't hurt... not as much as I'm about to hurt you, anyway...

From 18th level, all damage the madness disciple takes is nonlethal, so very little short of knocking it out and using a coup de grace attack on it will kill it.
I'm mildly surprised no one mentioned a Necropolitan would become immune to damage at 18th level with this class.

ThePurple
2016-04-04, 01:48 AM
Ehh. Yeah, encephalopathy lets you make a buttload of attacks, but a half-decent wizard can do more damage than you.

I'm not so sure about that, especially if you crank the hell out of CHA and dump WIS, and the reason for that is Psychopathy. Without that one ability, stuff is still broken as hell (reduce all rolls by either 40 or 60, depending on whether they're doubled or tripled), but it's not *as* broken as hell.

At level 20, you can take a 20 penalty to any Will save, which, if you start with an 18 CHA and use all of your level bonuses, gear, and tomes/wishes on it, you'll have a CHA of close to 30, I believe (it's been a while since I did 3.X so it might be off a bit), which is a +10 increase to your DCs; WIS of 1 gives you a -4 to your rolls, which is effectively a +4 to DCs (and you're immune to mind-effecting abilities along with a whole massive slew of other stuff which, I'm pretty sure, includes everything that could reduce your WIS and render you comatose along with a bunch of other instant death effects). Factor all of that together and you've got what amounts to a Will save of +6 with a DC of 54 (10 + 10 half level + 20 Psychopathy + 10 CHA + 4 WIS). On average, you're going to be failing by about 37 on every Will save; at best, you'd fail by 48; at worst, by 28.

Let's just go by what you would get *at worst* and not include any other ability modifiers or gear (so you're nekkid).

For Insanity, I'm just going to assume that it increases the multiplier of any existing doubling by 1, so that they triple instead of quadruple, since we're talking worst possible interpretations.

You've got the full BAB so, with Antipathy and Sociopathy, you're getting to make a full attack action of +104/+99/+94/+89 and dealing +84 damage with each of those attacks. That attack bonus is so high that you automatically hit pretty much *anything* with all of those attacks (a GW Red Dragon's AC is 41), so you're dealing at least 336 damage each turn. The best loadout for you would actually be to dual wield in order to capitalize on the additional attacks each turn; if you get a DEX of at least 19 (which you're probably going to aim for since you can't wear armor), you're going to be making 7 attacks per turn, for at least 588 damage each round. Stack Neuropathy on top of that and you're basically getting all of those attacks *every turn* as long as there is something within twice your move speed (and you don't take any OAs when you do charge around like an idiot, not that it matters since you're basically untouchable and take negligible damage). It gets even more crazy when you add in Enchephalopathy. You're talking about getting *28 additional attacks each round*. That's a possible total of 35 attacks each round, which, for all intents and purposes cannot miss, and deal at least 84 damage each (not including crits or weapons or *anything else*), for a minimum of 3010 damage (GW Red Dragon has a max of 880 hp; if you factor in the GW Red Dragon's DR, you're still talking about dealing 2310 damage).

With Delusion and Schizophrenia, your AC, flat-footed, and touch, are going to be 94 so it's going to be pretty much impossible for anything to hit you (Fighter gets upwards of +40 to hit with its highest attack, I think? that's what a GW Red Dragon has, at least). With Hallucination, however, you're reducing the damage of anything that *does* hit you by at least 56, so you've got pretty much epic tier DR. This does, however, render Psychosis kind of redundant since, if you're effectively impossible to hit and have insane DR, why would anyone ever bother to attack you? Stack all of that on top of Mania, which you admit renders you effectively impossible to kill, and it's even more nuts.

With Paranoia and Schizophrenia, you're pretty much always going to be going first with a +84 init mod.

With Disinterest, since you can easily make it impossible for you to pass a Will save, you automatically pass any and all Will saves if you wish, not that it matters because you are immune to mind-altering abilities, illusions, negative illusion, divination, enchantment, telepathy, clairsentience abilities, forced movement, movement prevention, prone, flat-footed, hostile magic, and anything else that isn't direct damage (irrelevant because of Delusion, Schizophrenia, and Hallucination as previously mentioned).

With Delirium, you get a +56 to any skill check, so you've got skill checks for anything you aren't trained in better than someone who *is* and has dumped all of their points into it. If you *have* focused on any of your skills in earnest, it's even more absurd (+80 bonus, I think?).

In effect, you have created a class that, at level 20...


always acts first
can only miss on a 1 or fail a skill check on a 1
gets enough attacks and enough damage to kill 2 and a half GW red dragons each round *at a minimum* with anything they can get their hands on (3 and a half if it's magical)
is effectively impossible to kill and virtually impossible to knock unconscious
is immune to any hostile magic while still being able to get buffed by friendly magic


As far as I can tell, you've built something that can only be killed by something with an automatic sense of some kind (since listen and spot are so high nothing can beat their Move Silently or Hide and it's immune to magical discovery) a long ranged (so that the first acting 60' ubercharge doesn't kill them first) Fort or Ref (since you always pass Will checks) non-magical (immune to hostile magic) instant death ability (because your AC and DR is so high as to be untouchable and eternally unscathed) that isn't mind-effecting, illusory, or enchantment.

While naked.

While I admit that my 3.X-fu isn't particularly strong any more, I'm pretty sure you could wipe the floor with anything else in the game (including epic tier wizards) without really getting worried. Once you start adding magic items and feats (particularly ones that allow you to teleport or increase your movement speed since that's basically the only limiter on what you can instantly kill), it's only going to get worse.

I didn't do the math for it, but I'm pretty sure that even epic tier castles made of adamantine would take less an an hour to reduce to dust. It would probably take less than half the time if you started using an adamantine shard you broke off in the first round in order to speed up the rest of it.

Jormengand
2016-04-04, 05:05 AM
I'm mildly surprised no one mentioned a Necropolitan would become immune to damage at 18th level with this class.

You mean a necropolitan couldn't take any levels in this class because they're barred from taking levels in it?

@ThePurple: Yeah, I've nerfed a lot of its stuff. Encewhatever has been cut to 1/5 as effective.

ThePurple
2016-04-04, 09:57 AM
@ThePurple: Yeah, I've nerfed a lot of its stuff. Encewhatever has been cut to 1/5 as effective.

Even with Psychopathy halve, you can still automatically fail any Will save by 18 or more (it still averages out to ~28 on everything), and, even though you've reduced a lot of stuff by half, you're still talking about massive bonuses at a minimum.

Antipathy + Sociopathy + Insanity still gives you, at a minimum (doubling a 1.5 generally gets interpreted as a 3x rather than a 2.5, unlike "doubling" a 2 which turns it into a 3, so you're not really changing anything on that front), a +74/+69/+64/+59 full attack dealing 54 additional damage with each attack, which still passes the "unmissable" threshold as well as the "massive damage" threshold. The Enchephalopathy nerf is probably the biggest change, but you're still talking about between 3 and 7 additional attacks each round, all of which benefit from the massive accuracy and damage from the multiplied Antipathy. Put that together with Greater Two Weapon Fighting and you've got a minimum of 10 attacks each round, all of which can miss only on a 1, that each deal at least 54 damage; using a pair of +5 keen kukri (hardly optimal weapons when you're packing at least 10 attacks each round) and you're gonna be putting out, on average, (.95 accuracy, 12 attacks, +64 damage from Antipathy, 1d4+5 damage from kukri, x1.3 keen with 2x crit) ~833 damage per round (which is more than the "average" GW Red Dragon hp of 660 and within a single standard deviation of the max GW Red Dragon hp of 880). You're *still* putting any other physical damage class in the game to shame on that ground alone (as well as any other damage driven class that I can think of).

On the defense front, Delusion + Schizophrenia + Insanity is giving you an AC of 46, which is hittable, but, once again, that's minimum, not average; the average is actually 66 and it only takes a roll of a 5 in order to take a 20 for a GW Red Dragon to hit you (and a roll of 16 or better to hit you when you roll minimum). I don't feel like doing the math for that, but you're still talking about getting hit a scant number of times (and it also applies to AC, touch, and flat-footed so it doesn't matter what's attempting to hit you). For damage reduction, you're getting, at minimum, damage reduction of 18, average of 28, so you might be taking *some* damage from those scant few attacks that can actually damage you.

Paranoia + Insanity is giving you an init mod of +18 at minimum, so you're still talking about acting first except in those rare situations where you roll poorly on both the Will save and the init roll and someone else rolls well (init mods don't grow all that much in 3.X because they don't scale with level). That's ridiculously unlikely because you're multiplying 3 low chances together (.2 ^ 3 = .008, which is, scientifically, unlikely enough to be considered statistically impossible, and I'm pretty sure it's lower than that; admittedly, I don't feel like doing the math this morning, so I *might* be wrong, but I feel damned confident).

A minumum failure of at least 18 combined with Disinterest still renders you incapable of failing a Will save if you so feel like it and, from what I can tell, you still have all of the immunities you provided before so it's not like you're going to be seeing anything remotely close to threatening on that front.

For skill checks, Delirium is giving you a minimum of +18 to everything with an average +28, so, instead of being impossible for anyone to compete with you, you're simply in the realm of "on average, even with no skill ranks whatsoever, I'm on par or slightly better than a totally focused skill monkey" for *every single skill*. When you do start putting ranks into skills, you're pretty much better than anything else in existence at that (and Move Silently and Hide are still class skills, so you're still talking about being basically impossible to sense without auto-win non-magical senses).

Even with all of your nerfs, I would still bet on a level 20 marginally geared Madness Disciple against pretty much anything else in existence except the most epic of creatures, and the reason is *still* Psychopathy. Unless you nerf that straight into the ground so that failing a Will save is at least *possible* and/or placing some other limitation on the Madness Disciple's abilities (like capping the "max" that you can treat a failed save by at 10), you're *still* talking about a gamebreakingly overpowered class here.

What makes it particularly bad is that you have a *lot* of multiplicative buffing effects that create synergistic obscenities. Combining buffed Antipathy with buffed Neuropathy multiplies the effectiveness of both (increase attack and damage rolls and then give you additional attacks). The same is true of Delusion and Hallucination (reduce chance of being hit and then reduce damage taken). Combine those synergistic obscenities with the plethora of immunities you provide (which I can only guess are designed to make this an unimpeachable wizard/CoD killer), and you blow everything out of the park.

Massive damage potential (enough to kill pretty much anything in a single turn) combined with functional immunity to danger (immunity to hostile magic with amazing AC and DR, on top of "all direct damage is nonlethal") turn this class into the immovable object and the unstoppable force simultaneously. The only limitation on this class is *still* the distance it can cover in a single round (and it's still nearly impossible to sense).

This class makes the Lightning Warrior look like a chump.

nikkoli
2016-04-04, 10:29 AM
I had not done the math before ThePurple, thank you for doing that. Jormengand, you could limit the numeric bonuses gained by class features to your class level that would make it not nearly as bad. 20 hit/damage/Dr/ac/n-stuff isn't nearly as busted as +50. That's within the realms of epic creatures can fight you at level 20, I think.

pi4t
2016-04-10, 11:32 AM
I love this class, and it suits a certain character I have almost perfectly. Doubly so since this looks like it'll work so well as the passive side of a charisma based gestalt. Hopefully my DM will allow the class.


I'd assume the fluff downside would be having to roleplay all these.
That isn't a downside, that's a bonus ;)

Edit: I have a couple of questions about certain abilities.

Both schizophrenia and torpor give immunity to flat-footedness. Error?
Does lethargy allow you to ignore things like invisibility and mirror image?
Neuropathy: "don't take attacks of opportunity for any reason" - does this mean you don't suffer AoOs, or don't make AoOs?
Psychosis: I think that as written, this also works if you fail a will save you're using disinterest on (since the free attack is an effect of passing the save), but I'm not sure.