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Closet_Skeleton
2007-06-21, 02:06 PM
Since Paladin is a bit weak as a class and most Paladin fixes seem to be missing something I thought I'd try and do something differant.

Becoming a Paladin
Any LG character may become a Paladin. A character cannot choose to become a Paladin, it is something that the forces of destiny choose for you. To become a Paladin you must commit a significantly good act and someway gain the favour of the gods or at least an entity with Cosmic power.
A Character of any class or social status may become a Paladin.

Losing Paladin Status
A character automatically loses Paladin status if he ever angers his benefactors or willingly commits an evil act. In addition a Paladin must follow a certain code.

A Paladin must never kill an opponent without evidence of its guilt

A Paladin may break local laws only if he is required to to stop himself from falling

A Paladin may not allow an evil act to go unpunished

A Paladin may not act for personaly gain

A Paladin must give away any excess gold that he does not need to spend on equipment.

A Paladin must favour the weak over the strong.

Paladin Benifits
A Paladin gains certain benifits based off his class level.


{table=head]Character Level|Benifit

1-2|Aura of Good, Aura of Courage, Divine Destiny, Lay on Hands
3-4|Divine Grace, Smite Evil 1/day
5-7|Special Mount, Remove Disease
8-12|Paladin Spells, Smite Evil 2/day
13-15|Improved Aura of Courage, Purge Poison
16-17|Smite Evil 3/day
18-20|Divine Quest[/table]

Aura of Good [Ex]: A Paladin has an aura of Good with a strength equal to his class level.
Aura of Courage [Ex]: A Paladin grants a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear spells and effects to himself and all creatures within 30 ft.
Divine Destiny [Su]: A Paladin adds his charisma modifier plus half his class level as a divine bonus on checks made to navigate a path towards evil creatures or on Survival checks to track evil creatures.
Lay on Hands: You gain a number of points equal to your class level x your charisma modifier. By touching a creature, you may spend these points to either heal a living creature or harm an undead creature.
Divine Grace [Su]: The Paladin adds his charisma modifier as a divine bonus to all saving throws.
Smite Evil [Su]: The Paladin may declare a smite evil attempt when making an attack roll. If the target of the attack is evil, the Paladin adds his Charisma modifier to the attack roll and the target suffers 1d6 additional divine damage for every 3 levels of the Paladin.
Special Mount [Ex]: A Paladin may select a mount to grant Special mount bonuses to.
Remove Disease: A Paladin may spend points of lay on hands in order to cure disease. The ammount of points he must spend is equal to half the fortitude save to resist the disease. In addition he adds his charisma modifier to all heal checks.
Paladin Spells: A Paladin adds all spells from the Paladin list to his spells known list.
Purge Poison: A Paladin may cure poison in the same way he would a disease.
Improved Aura of Courage: The bonus from a Paladin's aura of courage doubles to +8 and the radius increases to 60 ft
Divine Quest: A Paladin may add his class level on knowledge checks required to find the locations of good aligned weapons such as Holy Avengers.

Paladin feats

Improved Smite Evil [General]
Prerequisites: Smite Evil ability
Benefits: Your Smite evil ability deals an additional 1d6 points of divine damage.

Improved Lay on Hands [General]
Prerequisites: Remove Disease ability, Lay on hands ability
Benefits: Add your class level again to the number of points you have for laying on hands.

Holy Rage [General]
Flavor text.
Prerequisites: Rage ability, Paladin benifits
Benefits: You may continue to advance as a Barbarian despite having a lawful alignment. You may still use your Rage class feature, but only when you need to do so in order to fight evil. In addition you use your charisma modifier to determine how long your rage lasts.
Normal: Becoming Lawful causes you to lose any rage ability.

TO_Incognito
2007-06-21, 02:29 PM
No, I don't like it. A character chosen to be a Paladin will just be flat-out superior to a normal character of the same class.

I also strongly dislike the flavor; I think Paladins ought to be champions of the principles of good and order by choice, not forced servants of good by virtue of their being chosen by a god. Clerics serve gods; Paladins ought to be champions of goodness itself of their own volition. The idea of Paladins being chosen to do what is right, rather than choosing to do what is right, and serving a benefactor before goodness itself, doesn't sit well with me.

Finally, the code of conduct seems far too vague, and in some cases, too harsh. "A Paladin may not allow an evil act to go unpunished." Must a level 3 Paladin suicide against a level 25 Sorceror because the Sorceror killed a local pesant? "A Paladin must favour the weak over the strong." Must a PC Paladin really abandon a fellow PC to die in favor of an unnamed 1st level commoner NPC? What happens if a Paladin's benefactor, despite having the best of intentions, makes a mistake, and the Paladin must choose between serving his benefactor and doing what's right? I much prefer very specific mechanical limitations, like those on the PHII Knight, or limitations simply based on the alignment system already in place, like the traditional "A Paladin must remain lawful good." The former is the best; otherwise, there's just too much DM fiat involved.

brian c
2007-06-21, 02:48 PM
No, I don't like it. A character chosen to be a Paladin will just be flat-out superior to a normal character of the same class.

I also strongly dislike the flavor; I think Paladins ought to be champions of the principles of good and order by choice, not forced servants of good by virtue of their being chosen by a god. Clerics serve gods; Paladins ought to be champions of goodness itself of their own volition. The idea of Paladins being chosen to do what is right, rather than choosing to do what is right, and serving a benefactor before goodness itself, doesn't sit well with me.

Finally, the code of conduct seems far too vague, and in some cases, too harsh. "A Paladin may not allow an evil act to go unpunished." Must a level 3 Paladin suicide against a level 25 Sorceror because the Sorceror killed a local pesant? "A Paladin must favour the weak over the strong." Must a PC Paladin really abandon a fellow PC to die in favor of an unnamed 1st level commoner NPC? What happens if a Paladin's benefactor, despite having the best of intentions, makes a mistake, and the Paladin must choose between serving his benefactor and doing what's right? I much prefer very specific mechanical limitations, like those on the PHII Knight, or limitations simply based on the alignment system already in place, like the traditional "A Paladin must remain lawful good." The former is the best; otherwise, there's just too much DM fiat involved.

Unfortunately, if you read the PHB description of Paladins, it says that they are all chosen by their gods, and that you cannot make a choice of your own to become a paladin. I think most people ignore that part though.

Aquillion
2007-06-21, 03:09 PM
I would make it into a feat tree. Have one 'core' feat, then a feat for a mount, a feat for advanced healing, a feat for advanced turning, advanced smiting, etc. These could be selected as fighter bonus feats (and, indeed, you'd probably need to be a fighter to get them all.)

I would drop the draconian new requirements, making the benefits offset by the large number of feats required instead. We still want Paladins to be playable in a 'normal' game, right? The way these requirements are set up, it would practically turn the Paladin into an Exalted character, which definitely isn't playable in most games.

And besides, I agree with TO_Incognito that the new flavor isn't any good. Clerics depend on gods, not Paladins; that's one of the key differences between them. I also don't like the idea of having to perform a 'significantly good deed' to become a paladin; some paladins, after all, are 'plodding', hardworking types who work for low key good every day, not heroic kick-down-the-door-and-save-the-day types. Paladinhood requires deeply-held devotion on the part of the Paladin, not one stupid event that impressed Divine Executive #37.


A Paladin must never kill an opponent without evidence of its guiltToo harsh by far. What about creatures that can't be guilty, like animals? What about things like demons and undead--does a Paladin have to sit back and try to decide if the Balor is "guilty" while the rest of the party is fighting it? If a Paladin finds an Orcish warparty heading towards a populated town, and the whole group pings as evil, are they supposed to look for evidence of "guilt" before attacking?


A Paladin may break local laws only if he is required to to stop himself from fallingThis is just silly. So a Paladin in Menzoberranzan has to do whatever Lloth wants him to do as long as it isn't a direct violation of the code? It's fine to say that Paladin has to respect the law, but requiring that they obey whoever the local magistrate is under all circumstances and regardless of who they are is lawful stupid. Not even lawful stupid; this goes beyond lawful stupid and into stupid stupid.


A Paladin may not allow an evil act to go unpunishedWhat, never? So if a Paladin is chasing the BBEG through the streets and sees an old lady being mugged, he has to make a note to come back later to administer justice?


A Paladin may not act for personaly gain

A Paladin must give away any excess gold that he does not need to spend on equipment.Waaay too harsh. You're getting into Exalted territory with these two and the previous one.


A Paladin must favour the weak over the strong.Bizarre. Why? So if they're faced with a choice between their liege, Baltor the Strong, and Filthy McStabbyFace, the crippled crazy beggar who eats cats, they have to favor Filthy McStabbyface? This is practically a chaotic requirement, since it makes the Paladin favor the weak and disenfranchised over established power and traditional authority. Paladins are lawful good, no matter how you cut it; that means that, while they would show mercy to the weak, and be kind to them, their basic loyalty is to tradition and authority, not with the powerless and downtrodden.

You also, bizarrely, eliminated two of the key parts of the code:

First, acting with honor, which is in literature usually shown as the entire code. This is central to Paladins, far moreso than anything you mentioned.

Second, helping those in need. I find it mildly disturbing that you placed such a heavy emphasis on never letting an evil act to go unpunished, yet forgot this one. So... if a Paladin sees an old lady being mugged, they're required to smite the perpetrator (which they can do with a poisoned blade in the back, since they have evidence the perp was guilty and aren't required to act honorably), but they don't have to give the lady her purse back as long as they spend the money on equipment? Beautiful.

TO_Incognito
2007-06-21, 05:03 PM
Unfortunately, if you read the PHB description of Paladins, it says that they are all chosen by their gods, and that you cannot make a choice of your own to become a paladin. I think most people ignore that part though.

Ah, it does indeed say that it is impossible to gain a Paladin's nature through an act of will. However, it does not at all imply a divine selection or patronage by a specific deity or set of deities (it describes a Paladin's calling in terms of destiny instead), and it seems to imply that if a character already has the moxy to be a Paladin, then whether or not to become a Paladin is a free act of will.

Neek
2007-06-21, 05:18 PM
It also states in the PHB, that a potential candidate for being a Paladin can be ignored. It is possible to ignore one's destiny (which allows you to multiclass at a higher level, I reckon). By the player choosing the Paladin class for his character, that character is accepting the calling to fight for righteousness.

The problem with this set is that it possibly may not even be the player's choice whether the All Paladin's Calling is paging them. Which means randomly, all LG characters have such a calling. A commoner with a Paladin overlay? Right on! Great work, Destiny.

I understand where the OP is going with this, but I don't rightly readily accept it. I'm just keeping a Paladin as a PrC. However, for some feedback: convert this to a template that provides base creature with an augmented subtype, [Destined Champion of Good], at a +LA.

Hazkali
2007-06-21, 05:22 PM
I like the idea. However, it would be unbalancing for one player to take this option, and not have any other options for the other players as it does increases the abilities of that character by a significant ammount. Consider giving it a variable ECL modifier, like the Half-Celestial template; i.e. for a certain range of HD the modifier is +1, then for another it is +2, and then +3.

Or, you could simply tone down the abilities, or put in place some sort of ability-reducing system (similar to the drawbacks of Weapons of Legacy) that balance it out a bit.

Skaldi
2007-06-21, 05:26 PM
If you treat the Paladin class as if it were a prestige class then perhaps it might work. But then one might arguably say, well you could take any number of the holy prestige classes and it would work. What comes to mind is Favored Soul, or you could take Exhalted levels with whatever class you have.

Aquillion
2007-06-22, 12:51 AM
Unfortunately, if you read the PHB description of Paladins, it says that they are all chosen by their gods, and that you cannot make a choice of your own to become a paladin. I think most people ignore that part though.This is exactly wrong. It in fact specifically says the opposite, stating "Paladins need not devote themselves to a single deity. Devotion to righteousness is enough for most."

The section that is confusing you is the part that says "Becoming a paladin is answering a call, accepting one's destiny. No one, no matter how diligent, can become a Paladin through practice." It's easy to see how, skimming that, you misinterpreted the class as something divinely-granted. However, you missed the next sentence, which is absolutely vital to the class: "The nature is either within one or not, and it is not possible to gain the paladin's nature through any act of will."

A paladin's nature comes exclusively from within. Deities have nothing to do with it, and have zero ability to either offer someone the chance to become a paladin, to anoint people as paladins, or to deny someone with the potential their status as a paladin; short of overgod-style deities capable of changing someone's essential nature, every lawful good deity in every pantheon could shower all their favors and holiness on a lawful good character with every intent of making them a paladin, and if the "nature of a paladin" is not there, they would fail completely. Paladins, per raw, do not and cannot receive their status from a god, though many do choose to follow a god as part of their devotion to the paladin's way.

(Well, to be fair, there is one exception. Some Paladins might feel that they received their status from a god, in that their life was changed by following Heironeous or whoever, and this awakened them to their duty. But Heironeous cannot change a follower's nature directly, and therefore has absolutely no say in who becomes a paladin and who does not.)

Xuincherguixe
2007-06-22, 06:43 AM
This is another thing I don't like about default D&D.

Paladins being 'destined' and all. It cheapens them as Martyrs. (Rather than 'I choose to suffer for the world' it is, 'I am destined to suffer for the world'. Okay, the second one has options too, but not necessarily should that be limited to Paladining)

In my mind there are really two main types of Paladins. There are the kinds that act as agents of the gods. If you're playing in a not particularly grim game, it's essentially that Paladins are nice people that go around being generally nice. And probably they get the supernatural ability to induce vomiting.Grimmer game? Enforcers. Crush all opposition to the gods. In a really grim game this is necessary to make the universe work. And probably they have to eat souls too and eat kittens.

The other kind of Paladin is the one who takes it upon themselves to suffer for the world. Beyond just dying to make things right. Everywhere they would go they take it upon themselves to make the world better even if it harms them. Or die. And I'd like to believe that you could do that outside the bounds of Lawful good, but that's a debate for another time. Whatever. This kind of character works better without some outside source of power sanctioning them. Yeah, I know where Martyrs usually get their power, but again it is more meaningful when someone chooses to suffer for humanity (err I guess elfanity, dwarfanity, maybe goblinanity and a few others) with no outside interference


I don't think that either of these should be limited to just a knight, who casts divine spells. But I guess that's kind of where book of exalted deeds comes in. The Holy Knight certainly is the most obvious and logical route to go, but I can't help but think that a Wizard makes for a good martyr (or enforcer) too. It works great with the Atheist Paladin. ("The gods, some well intentioned get in the way of the real good. I'll look for power else where")

There's also the stereotype Paladin who just kind of stumbles around and is generally boring and stupid. Bad character concepts don't count :P


I guess though in the end, the Paladin is, and should be a Holy Knight. But, there can be many different kinds of champions with a Paladin like code.

Still, I really can't help but feel like there should be a 'Warrior type with divine magic' rather than Holy Knight, oh yeah and it has to be Lawful and Good too, because Lawful Good is right. (Aren't there other 'Goods' out there? Oh I forgot Lawful Good is the 'true' good. *hate*) Yeah, I'm all for Variant Paladins.


I've thought a lot about this. Can you tell by my long rambling post?

Aquillion
2007-06-22, 11:04 AM
This is another thing I don't like about default D&D.

Paladins being 'destined' and all. It cheapens them as Martyrs. (Rather than 'I choose to suffer for the world' it is, 'I am destined to suffer for the world'. Okay, the second one has options too, but not necessarily should that be limited to Paladining)

In my mind there are really two main types of Paladins. There are the kinds that act as agents of the gods. If you're playing in a not particularly grim game, it's essentially that Paladins are nice people that go around being generally nice. And probably they get the supernatural ability to induce vomiting.Grimmer game? Enforcers. Crush all opposition to the gods. In a really grim game this is necessary to make the universe work. And probably they have to eat souls too and eat kittens.

The other kind of Paladin is the one who takes it upon themselves to suffer for the world. Beyond just dying to make things right. Everywhere they would go they take it upon themselves to make the world better even if it harms them. Or die. And I'd like to believe that you could do that outside the bounds of Lawful good, but that's a debate for another time. Whatever. This kind of character works better without some outside source of power sanctioning them. Yeah, I know where Martyrs usually get their power, but again it is more meaningful when someone chooses to suffer for humanity (err I guess elfanity, dwarfanity, maybe goblinanity and a few others) with no outside interferenceI think that the D&D RAW paladin is actually closer to your second one (the text, note, says that most Paladins don't even follow a god; their ideals are enough for them.) The idea is that to be a Paladin is to be the sort of person who would take it upon themselves to suffer for the world; this is the "nature of the paladin" mentioned in the text and the sole true prerequisite for the class. Look at them like a movie cowboy or hero or something; when the girl asks them why they have to go risk their lives, they reply that it's "just the way they are" or "this is the only way I know how to live" or something similar. A Paladin is someone knows what they have to do, and does it.

This is why they have to be lawful good, too--a Paladin is, by nature, someone who is completely driven by this concept of duty, the idea that there are certain things they have to do, certain ideals they have to protect, and so forth. This describes a very lawful type of person... A chaotic good character could take the day off from time to time, shelve their duty occasionally as long as nothing major comes up, etc. A Paladin can't.

Matthew
2007-06-22, 10:02 PM
I would tend to agree. I see nothing in the description of the Paladin that would support any other view of the Paladin above this one. Lawful Good Characters who are able to adhere to the Paladin Code have the potential to become Paladins. They don't have to, it's a free choice. They choose to uphold a particular view of Lawful Good and they choose to act for the good of others.

Closet Skeleton's approach is interesting. I don't think, in the end, I would be willing to go along with it, but it is something to think about.

Xuincherguixe
2007-06-22, 10:56 PM
Yeah, I think I kind of gave the wrong impression there. D&D doesn't let you be 'Crusader' type of Paladin (I'm sure there's a Crusader class somewhere, and there's Grey Guard). But I'm not sure that should really be a different class is the thing.

But that's just me.

Nah, in D&D you don't get much options in terms of Paladins.