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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Cantrip Balancing and school of magic help! (PEACH)



DracoKnight
2016-04-09, 03:23 AM
So, looking for help balancing this cantrip (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RmsUwsqaktRUyxtjX8yOkNyCoDaPWQINOfBPVBLLk8w/edit?usp=sharing), and need help determining which school of magic it would belong to... Thanks for the help! :smallbiggrin:

GandalfTheWhite
2016-04-09, 03:32 AM
So, looking for help balancing this cantrip (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RmsUwsqaktRUyxtjX8yOkNyCoDaPWQINOfBPVBLLk8w/edit?usp=sharing), and need help determining which school of magic it would belong to... Thanks for the help! :smallbiggrin:

I like this cantrip. It deals magical damage in types that are normally mundane. That's nice for when you want to play a character who's not flashy in their magic, but still wants to overcome resistances. I think that the bleeding damage is fine balance wise too.

Now, for schools. I think it could go one of several different ways:

1) Evocation (boring)
2) Transmutation (based on your fluff saying the caster is heightening their senses through magic)
3) Necromancy (because you're trying to harm someone more effectively)
4) (this'll be an odd choice, but I'll explain myself) Illuision (my personal favorite for it)

Let me explain why I think Illusion. The fluff I personally see for this cantrip is that you create an illusory version of yourself (like blur) and attack from two sides, and that's why you get the extra bleeding damage. Now, this also makes the cantrip fit the kind of feel I think you're going for - correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems kind of perfect for a) an Arcane Trickster, b) a Trickery Domain Cleric, or c) an Assassin with the Magic Initiate feat.

Professor Gnoll
2016-04-09, 03:35 AM
See, I was thinking that the 'Heighten senses and determine weak-points' aspect of the spell might actually make it Divination.

DracoKnight
2016-04-09, 03:36 AM
I like this cantrip. It deals magical damage in types that are normally mundane. That's nice for when you want to play a character who's not flashy in their magic, but still wants to overcome resistances. I think that the bleeding damage is fine balance wise too.

The magical mundane damage is what I was going for :smallsmile:


Now, for schools. I think it could go one of several different ways:

1) Evocation (boring)
2) Transmutation (based on your fluff saying the caster is heightening their senses through magic)
3) Necromancy (because you're trying to harm someone more effectively)

I was kind of thinking along those lines and wasn't satisfied with any of them...


4) (this'll be an odd choice, but I'll explain myself) Illuision (my personal favorite for it)

Let me explain why I think Illusion. The fluff I personally see for this cantrip is that you create an illusory version of yourself (like blur) and attack from two sides, and that's why you get the extra bleeding damage.

Honestly, I really like that!


Now, this also makes the cantrip fit the kind of feel I think you're going for - correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems kind of perfect for a) an Arcane Trickster, b) a Trickery Domain Cleric, or c) an Assassin with the Magic Initiate feat.

Those are exactly the kinds of characters I was thinking that this would be for :smallbiggrin: I've always liked the Trickery Cleric, but felt they lacked a little bit of "oomph" to drive home the stealthy trickster type character. I kind of mean for this cantrip to be a mini-Sneak Attack.

DracoKnight
2016-04-09, 03:37 AM
See, I was thinking that the 'Heighten senses and determine weak-points' aspect of the spell might actually make it Divination.

Oooo...that could work too! :smallsmile:

Requiemforlust
2016-04-09, 03:43 AM
4) (this'll be an odd choice, but I'll explain myself) Illuision (my personal favorite for it)

Let me explain why I think Illusion. The fluff I personally see for this cantrip is that you create an illusory version of yourself (like blur) and attack from two sides, and that's why you get the extra bleeding damage.

Oooooooo! I like this fluff! :smallbiggrin:


See, I was thinking that the 'Heighten senses and determine weak-points' aspect of the spell might actually make it Divination.

This would work, and I kind of associate Divination magic with Clerics, and just as important as Illusions (for a trickster) is knowing where your enemy is (divination).


I kind of mean for this cantrip to be a mini-Sneak Attack.

I think you succeeded; I'm decently sure it's balanced too, but not 100% sure.

DracoKnight
2016-04-09, 05:01 AM
This would work, and I kind of associate Divination magic with Clerics, and just as important as Illusions (for a trickster) is knowing where your enemy is (divination).

Okays, so Illusion if I change it, Divination if I leave it as is...hmmmm...


I think you succeeded; I'm decently sure it's balanced too, but not 100% sure.

I'm glad you think it succeeded :smallsmile:

Also, I'm thinking Cleric, Warlock, and Wizard spell lists.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-04-09, 08:30 AM
I know I'm a bit late on this, but as-written, I call divination, much like True Strike. And I think it's balanced.

PoeticDwarf
2016-04-09, 08:49 AM
I know I'm a bit late on this, but as-written, I call divination, much like True Strike. And I think it's balanced.

Probably divination yeah

It seems balanced but the fluff as you wrote it doesn't go together with the effect. And "shadow strike" for damage when taking a reaction is a bit strange. The name is misleading and the fluff is too. Something says you had another or no idea in mind at first. The "illusion fluff" sounds way better.And it isn't a mini sneak attack this way

I'd NOT go cleric. Cleric's don't get extra attack and warlocks/wizard/sorcerers/bards who want to do. The cleric could this way deal without taking a feat or a dip free extra damage. The cantrip would be optimal in almost every situation. I'd stick with the booming blade / green flame blade list!

Zman
2016-04-09, 09:24 AM
I'm not a fan of the three round clock, I see it as cumbersome to work with. Also, it may likely be underpowered as not many monsters have usable Reactions. Divination makes sense for a school

Belac93
2016-04-09, 11:46 AM
Very nice cantrip. I like it a lot.

I would say divination, but I like the illusion and transmutation reasoning as well.

If I might add something, most of these spells that add onto melee attacks only have Verbal and Material components. The Somatic component is usually interpreted as doing things like waving your arms around or twiddling your fingers, and by RAW and RAI you cannot use Somatic components while having no hands free. I would suggest making it Verbal and Material instead, just to clear up any confusion about that.

DracoKnight
2016-04-09, 12:04 PM
And I think it's balanced.

It's quite a compliment to have your seal of approval :smallbiggrin:


Probably divination yeah

It seems balanced but the fluff as you wrote it doesn't go together with the effect. And "shadow strike" for damage when taking a reaction is a bit strange. The name is misleading and the fluff is too. Something says you had another or no idea in mind at first. The "illusion fluff" sounds way better.And it isn't a mini sneak attack this way

I will change it to the illusion fluff then.

Yeah, I initially called it shadow strike because I was going to make it allow you to hide from your target as a bonus action. But then I changed it later on.


I'd NOT go cleric. Cleric's don't get extra attack and warlocks/wizard/sorcerers/bards who want to do. The cleric could this way deal without taking a feat or a dip free extra damage. The cantrip would be optimal in almost every situation. I'd stick with the booming blade / green flame blade list!

I can appreciate that opinion, and I won't argue that this would be a boon to the cleric; but personally myself and my players like playing melee characters, so we find the cleric in combat to be suboptimal for melee (or people want to vary from the spirit guardians/spiritual weapon combo). I realize that clerics are generally a support class, but my group almost never needs healing in combat.


I'm not a fan of the three round clock, I see it as cumbersome to work with. Also, it may likely be underpowered as not many monsters have usable Reactions.

That was the idea, though. I wanted the rider to be situational, but when it comes in handy, it's fairly punishing.


Very nice cantrip. I like it a lot.

I would say divination, but I like the illusion and transmutation reasoning as well.

At this point I'm going to change the fluff and make it an illusion cantrip :smallsmile:


If I might add something, most of these spells that add onto melee attacks only have Verbal and Material components. The Somatic component is usually interpreted as doing things like waving your arms around or twiddling your fingers, and by RAW and RAI you cannot use Somatic components while having no hands free. I would suggest making it Verbal and Material instead, just to clear up any confusion about that.

Okay! That makes sense! :smallbiggrin: It bothered me that green-flame blade and booming blade were V, M not S, M, but now that you explain it that way it makes a lot more sense!

GandalfTheWhite
2016-04-09, 12:33 PM
I think you're golden, now :smallbiggrin:

SterlingWren
2016-04-09, 12:58 PM
This is awesome! :smallbiggrin:

DracoKnight
2016-04-10, 01:24 PM
Is there anything else I need to fix?

GandalfTheWhite
2016-04-11, 02:15 PM
I'm pretty sure you're good :smallsmile:

DracoKnight
2016-04-12, 03:57 PM
I'm pretty sure you're good :smallsmile:

M'kay! I'm gonna release it to my players then