PDA

View Full Version : [Combat] Women fighting in 19th century dresses/skirts



Bloodtomb
2016-04-12, 07:47 PM
Of course I've found this thread from RPG.net: https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?440253-Combat-Women-fighting-in-19th-century-dresses-skirts


Weird title, but I'm reading through Fudge 10th Anniversary now, and there's a picture on page 304 of a woman and man in 19th century clothes fencing, and the woman wins by stabbing the guy in the shoulder. She's in a dress (say, an upper-class lady's dress).

I don't know what it is but this inspires me to create a whole setting where it is appropriate for a lady of the times to do this. Maybe a re-imagined Victorian England? The really Wild Wild East of New England?

However, a question for all you fighting/fencing types out there: how practical is it for a lady to fight in those sorts of dresses or skirts? Specifically fencing, say, in a parlor or such (imagine noble ladies dueling like their male counterparts), wearing the sort of shoes or boots that normally are worn. How possible? Pure fantasy?

Now I have some additional questions, now if the woman was wearing a victorian era ballroom evening gown with no other restrictive under garments (as in no bloomers, knickers, drawers, etc) and no stockings, just her bare legs or rather her 'completely naked' underneeth the layers (skirt and overskirt) of the dress except for wearing practical flat boots, and a corset/bodice doesn't restrict her breathing maybe perhaps she'll have a better time maneuvering around especially fighting? (well historical wise: did all women in the Victorian wore bloomers/knickers/drawers underneath or not all of them did and there was some women who wore dresses like women do today?)

Well I think this is a clearer picture for what I'm talking about for one example: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3R16vau_Wis/VcHw-9LRcTI/AAAAAAAAbfw/fjXYxRgEkv0/s640/cover_lg.jpg

Especially if the character was a Vampire where such restrictions are pretty much moot and she doesn't have to wear undergarments other than just her elegant dress and black goth boots and nothing else similar to the picture above...

Mr. Mask
2016-04-12, 08:23 PM
Well, if you have the front of the dress cut away like certain dancers wear, as in the Screampunk (SCREAMpunk?!?) picture, you might have some reasonable forward and side moment. Similarly to a long cape, backward motion would be tricky. If you had the dress high enough, and didn't make any high steps or change your posture too much, you might be able to move around fine with it.

Now, men have fought wearing skirts in the past, but they weren't generally as long as a ballgown. You can use the skirts their men used to fight in as examples of what is practical. Something more extreme than that may well be feasible, even if it started to approach impracticability.

For an illustration of a woman in a ballgown fighting, my first thought is that the artist thought it looked good (similarly to how all Greek men fought naked, according to some art).

Talyn
2016-04-12, 08:30 PM
There are some historical accounts of women fighting duels with each other wearing, essentially, boots and a skirt and nothing else. (And yes, from what I've read this is historically accurate, but was the extent of such duels wildly exaggerated at the time because women fighting bare-chested was just as provocative and sexually exciting then to a certain subset of the population as it is now.)

There even (NSFW, obviously) pictures and photographs, which I will not link to in deference to forum policy.

In general, it seems, that women who were expecting to go into combat would wear practical clothes for it - men's shirts, leather or wool coats, trousers or knee-length skirts, sturdy boots, maybe some gloves. They wouldn't go wearing a ballgown any more than a man would fight an MMA match in a tuxedo nowadays.

Bloodtomb
2016-04-12, 08:37 PM
Well I'm basically trying to put the Kicking ass in her finery trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KickingAssInAllHerFinery) into good use since sometimes women don't always need to wear pants/trousers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealWomenDontWearDresses) to be the tough competent one especially presenting femininity as something positive and powerful.

I think this is the main point here...


In general, it seems, that women who were expecting to go into combat would wear practical clothes for it - men's shirts, leather or wool coats, trousers or knee-length skirts, sturdy boots, maybe some gloves. They wouldn't go wearing a ballgown any more than a man would fight an MMA match in a tuxedo nowadays.

I guess it really depends on the situation I guess...

Since after all, I think the only situation of one fighting in tuxedos and ballgowns would be in a "Castlevania" or a haute class type setting most likely...

(Although to be honest to flip everything, when I was young I used to imagine a female (Vampire) protagonist wearing jeans, leather jacket or trench coat, etc (or sometimes full plate gothic armor) "Party crashing" into a Maquerade ball and starts slaying those Noble class Vampires of course now I'm starting to have different opinions of now a woman kicking ass in her ballgown or dress but maybe I could somehow fit both tropes in there like having them as separate characters...)

BayardSPSR
2016-04-12, 08:37 PM
if the woman was wearing a victorian era ballroom evening gown with no other restrictive under garments (as in no bloomers, knickers, drawers, etc) and no stockings, just her bare legs or rather her 'completely naked' underneeth the layers (skirt and overskirt) of the dress except for wearing practical flat boots, and a corset/bodice doesn't restrict her breathing maybe perhaps she'll have a better time maneuvering around especially fighting?

Maybe a little, but it seems like she'd have a much easier time ditching the dress and fighting in her underwear. It's the length of the dress that seems like the big problem - I can't imagine not stepping on a long dress while lunging or retreating. You'd be limited to really short steps, which is a big mobility problem.

Similarly, for men dueling with swords (especially thrust-oriented weapons like smallswords), they'd probably be best off ditching their coats and fighting in their shirtsleeves, if not less.

Bloodtomb
2016-04-12, 09:01 PM
Maybe a little, but it seems like she'd have a much easier time ditching the dress and fighting in her underwear. It's the length of the dress that seems like the big problem - I can't imagine not stepping on a long dress while lunging or retreating. You'd be limited to really short steps, which is a big mobility problem.

Well maybe perhaps if the Character was a Vampire, Mage, Faerie, etc here's some possibilities....

1. They can teleport around the room using cloud of bats or mist form like Dracula does in the Castlevania games or fly around (as in either levitating or growing wings).

2. If the dress is made out of magical material like self-repairing fabric if it get's ripped, or maybe dress made out of shadows where her legs can sometimes 'pierce through' the shadow when she's either attacking or lunging/running/retreating but going back in (especially if the the latter was a Lasombra or Darkling character).

Recherché
2016-04-12, 10:46 PM
Of course I've found this thread from RPG.net: https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?440253-Combat-Women-fighting-in-19th-century-dresses-skirts



Now I have some additional questions, now if the woman was wearing a victorian era ballroom evening gown with no other restrictive under garments (as in no bloomers, knickers, drawers, etc) and no stockings, just her bare legs or rather her 'completely naked' underneeth the layers (skirt and overskirt) of the dress except for wearing practical flat boots, and a corset/bodice doesn't restrict her breathing maybe perhaps she'll have a better time maneuvering around especially fighting? (well historical wise: did all women in the Victorian wore bloomers/knickers/drawers underneath or not all of them did and there was some women who wore dresses like women do today?)
Okay so for reference here I'm a steampunk costumer who also studies the history of fashion semi-professionally but I have no experience with

Well I think this is a clearer picture for what I'm talking about for one example: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3R16vau_Wis/VcHw-9LRcTI/AAAAAAAAbfw/fjXYxRgEkv0/s640/cover_lg.jpg

Especially if the character was a Vampire where such restrictions are pretty much moot and she doesn't have to wear undergarments other than just her elegant dress and black goth boots and nothing else similar to the picture above...


Okay so for reference I'm a steampunk costumer who also studies the history of fashion semi-professionally but I have no experience with fencing. But here's my take on it starting from the inner layers of a late 1800's dress going out.

The innermost layers, the chemise and drawers aren't a problem. Drawers are about as comfortable and easy to move in as a modern shorts and chemise's aren't usually much more difficult.

The first major problem you run into is the corset. Well actually its two major problems. First a woman wearing a reasonably tightly laced corset has about a 3rd less lung capacity than someone not wearing a corset which is a problem if you're doing something very athletic. If the lady in question doesn't need to breath this becomes less of an issue. The second issue is that wearing a fully boned corset does horrible things to your mobility. Its fairly common for women in corsets to be unable to tie their own shoes because they can't bend far enough to reach their feet.

But leaving off the corset entirely is not a good solution either. Corsets were what gave bust support; they were the 19th century equivalent of a bra. While I am again not a fencer I suspect trying to do anything with the girls flying around unsupported would be uncomfortable at best. So leaving that layer off entirely would be bad.

There is a sort of solution for this though. Not all 19th century women wore boned corsets. Working women who needed the lung capacity and the mobility as well as various other women had a second option called variously a corded bodice, a bust bodice, a corded corset or even just a corset. These bodices instead of true corset bones were reinforced with flexible cord. Corded bodices do not reduce the waist the way corsets do and the resulting silhouette looks much more modern than the exaggerated curves created by a boned corset. To anyone else in from the time period it would look odd paired with ballgown. Sort of similar to trying to wear a sports bra with a strapless wedding dress today.

Next layer up is the skirt supports. You didn't give me a firm date and what the skirts were supposed to look like and how they were supported varied drastically over the years. An 1850's hoopskirt would keep the woman's feet clear for fancy footwork but be a nightmare in how difficult it makes getting close to someone else. A crinolette or bustle would let her skirts get tangled in her feet and so on and so forth.

Overall long flowy skirts are a problem because of how easily they get tangled and caught on things. This is a problem Victorain women faced regularly so they had solutions. The most traditional solution were metal clips called skirt lifters or skirt elevators that could be used to pull the skirt up to somewhere between the shin and knees thus freeing up the feet. (Picture of skirt lifters: https://img1.etsystatic.com/133/0/8415850/il_570xN.987109745_5m7e.jpg) Practical but not very pretty in my opinion. The second option is in my humble opinion much prettier and more practical. Culottes.

https://stilettosandtequila.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/813d5ed661f110e487a9f1a5cdb4435c.jpg?w=427&h=639

http://www.namedclothing.com/woostore/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Culottes.jpg

http://g04.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1u6iQIXXXXXaZXVXXq6xXFXXX8/New-Brand-Fashion-Plue-Size-Style-Wide-Leg-Pants-Elegant-Long-Flower-Autumn-2015-Vestidos-font.jpg

http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/937901242/Free-shipping-2013-spring-summer-plus-size-casual-loose-cotton-modal-pants-culottes-long-trousers-high.jpg

Culottes are technically pants in construction but they look like a skirt especially if the woman is not moving very fast and is not sitting astride something like a horse or a bicycle. They also act like pants in that I can run and jump in them with no issues. One of my favorite steampunk outfits involves a pair of culottes with a bustled overskirt. If I move at anything less than a full run or trying to climb a tree it looks like a bustle skirt and I regularly get compliments from people at conventions thinking that I'm somehow riding a bike while wearing a full set of steampunk skirts. With a little sewing mojo a woman could even create the illusion of wearing petticoats beneath her culottes.

The main issue I can see with this idea is that while daytime walking skirts were only ankle length or so actual Victorian formal wear was usually floor length and often trained which no amount of stitch witchery will make practical. So your lady could fight in what looked like a fairly nice daytime skirt that was actually a disguised pair of culottes but she's not gonna be able to manage an evening dress so easily.

A standard Victorian bodice itself will have some issues as well. They were usually made with inbuilt light corset boning which would cause mobility issues. It would also often include a waist tape which while making the waist look smaller would probably not be comfortable if you were breathing hard. Depending on your exact year some types of sleeve styles were also quite limiting. However these issues can be avoided with a clever seamstress who knows that her customer is more interested in mobility than looking absolutely fabulous and on the bleeding edge of fashion.

Overall in summary there are ways that you could construct a 19th century outfit so that it might be possible to fence in while still looking pretty feminine, however it would require a skilled and helpful seamstress and the results would look more like nice everyday wear than an extremely fashionable ballgown.

Coidzor
2016-04-13, 12:54 AM
If she's a vampire fighting plain old ordinary humies she's good even hobbling herself.

If she's a vampire with more dots in Celerity than her supernatural opponent has in its Celerity analogue, she's good even hobbling herself.

Against an equal opponent, she's giving herself a disadvantage unless the genre conventions of the game/system/setting/table are such that they don't care what clothes a character is wearing.


2. If the dress is made out of magical material like self-repairing fabric if it get's ripped, or maybe dress made out of shadows where her legs can sometimes 'pierce through' the shadow when she's either attacking or lunging/running/retreating but going back in (especially if the the latter was a Lasombra or Darkling character).

Yeah, magical clothing that moves with the wearer and knows to stay out of the way or isn't really there would eliminate any issues from fighting, though you'd need to use something to make sure no one realizes your character is actually naked if they have cause to touch her "clothed" parts, such as if they're on her dance card.

Bloodtomb
2016-04-13, 01:31 AM
Overall in summary there are ways that you could construct a 19th century outfit so that it might be possible to fence in while still looking pretty feminine, however it would require a skilled and helpful seamstress and the results would look more like nice everyday wear than an extremely fashionable ballgown.

I guess I'm either better off just wearing jeans/trousers after all or if the character was wearing a extremely fashionable ballgown, I think it would be inevitable that the dress would eventually rip so it 'becomes practical' unless of course it was somehow 'self-repairing clothing' made by magic.

Or alternatively, maybe Obtenabration or a discipline can be used to 'repair the dress' or any ripped clothing...

Bloodtomb
2016-04-13, 01:55 AM
If she's a vampire fighting plain old ordinary humies she's good even hobbling herself.

If she's a vampire with more dots in Celerity than her supernatural opponent has in its Celerity analogue, she's good even hobbling herself.

Against an equal opponent, she's giving herself a disadvantage unless the genre conventions of the game/system/setting/table are such that they don't care what clothes a character is wearing.

I guess there could be a very good reason to come up with to why the setting doesn't care on what the character is wearing...

Also I wouldn't think Vampire women wouldn't be hubbling or having any disadvantages especially they're lower generation or high blood potency...


Yeah, magical clothing that moves with the wearer and knows to stay out of the way or isn't really there would eliminate any issues from fighting, though you'd need to use something to make sure no one realizes your character is actually naked if they have cause to touch her "clothed" parts, such as if they're on her dance card.

Well another idea I have that the dress is originally fabric but when it rips though, shadows take over it's place until it repairs back to fabric when the right moment comes (like when the coast is clear and standing upright still).

Recherché
2016-04-13, 01:56 AM
I guess I'm either better off just wearing jeans/trousers after all or if the character was wearing a extremely fashionable ballgown, I think it would be inevitable that the dress would eventually rip so it 'becomes practical' unless of course it was somehow 'self-repairing clothing' made by magic.

I should amend things slightly I mean it would look like very nice everyday wear from the 19th century as opposed to a formal Victorian ballgown by modern standards it still looks pretty darned pimped out.

For comparison purposes this (https://www.flickr.com/photos/10504146@N02/5562623421/in/album-72157626360592902/) is an 1889 evening gown. This (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/73/64/74/736474a2e89ffb1c1f1e95c49d85544e.jpg) is an 1885 walking dress.

Also tearing is generally not something I'd be too worried about. Its actually something to be encouraged. Hear me out here but a dress that tears at the seams can be repaired fairly easily. Tripping during a fight because your seams are too strong would probably make you lose the fight. The problems of wearing an evening dress have everything to do with mobility and tripping hazards and very little to do with damaging the dress. Additionally some of the more problematic parts are not the top layers of the dress. They're the underlayers of corset and all the really long skirts

Bloodtomb
2016-04-13, 02:06 AM
I should amend things slightly I mean it would look like very nice everyday wear from the 19th century as opposed to a formal Victorian ballgown by modern standards it still looks pretty darned pimped out.

For comparison purposes this (https://www.flickr.com/photos/10504146@N02/5562623421/in/album-72157626360592902/) is an 1889 evening gown. This (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/73/64/74/736474a2e89ffb1c1f1e95c49d85544e.jpg) is an 1885 walking dress.

Also tearing is generally not something I'd be too worried about. Its actually something to be encouraged. Hear me out here but a dress that tears at the seams can be repaired fairly easily. Tripping during a fight because your seams are too strong would probably make you lose the fight. The problems of wearing an evening dress have everything to do with mobility and tripping hazards and very little to do with damaging the dress. Additionally some of the more problematic parts are not the top layers of the dress. They're the underlayers of corset and all the really long skirts

Hmmm....maybe I guess it's possible for a off-the-shoulder V waistline walking dress which could easily pass an illusion of a "evening gown"?

Also I wonder what is your other solutions to removing the problematic parts of the dress and what would it look like?

Of course here is some pictures of the 'ideal' character design I have in mind:

http://nathanielemmett.tumblr.com/image/59732623706

http://kitty-grimm.deviantart.com/art/The-Night-Circus-359726334

http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=a3dcgrau8epns18s70ctd19jr5&action=dlattach;topic=3650.0;attach=4061;image

digiman619
2016-04-13, 02:19 AM
Are you asking for flavor reasons, or is the ST imposing penalties because of your outfit?

Bloodtomb
2016-04-13, 02:25 AM
Are you asking for flavor reasons, or is the ST imposing penalties because of your outfit?

I think the former is probably the closest but I'm also trying to find suitable ways to make such things work and making it 'believable' I should say...

Recherché
2016-04-13, 04:52 AM
Hmmm....maybe I guess it's possible for a off-the-shoulder V waistline walking dress which could easily pass an illusion of a "evening gown"?

Also I wonder what is your other solutions to removing the problematic parts of the dress and what would it look like?

Of course here is some pictures of the 'ideal' character design I have in mind:

http://nathanielemmett.tumblr.com/image/59732623706

http://kitty-grimm.deviantart.com/art/The-Night-Circus-359726334

http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=a3dcgrau8epns18s70ctd19jr5&action=dlattach;topic=3650.0;attach=4061;image

You aren't going to be able to go to far off the shoulder let alone strapless because the corded bodice used for bust support has straps. The only other non-corset form of support that I've seen vague references to in the period is a triangle bra which gives much less support and still has straps. Even if your lady has a small enough chest that she doesn't need much support strapless and off the shoulder dresses have an unfortunate tendency to not stay put when engaging in vigorous exercise. Also depending on how realistic you want to go exposing any cleavage at all was a big no-no for day dresses and even formal evening dresses tended to not show that much. Another odd little historical tidbit, exposing one's upper arms/armpit was scandalous no matter the occasion; even the most daring formal dresses would have lace sleeves or very short flaps of sleeve to cover those bits.

The skirt on the green dress is pretty much exactly what a culotte and overskirt combo will end up looking like (maybe with a shorter overskirt) and the Night Circus dress is pretty close as well (BTW the Night Circus is am awesome awesome book.)

However you want to swing it though your lady will need to have a close an intimate relationship with an expert seamstress who knows what her customer's needs are in terms of movement and who's willing to do some pretty frequent repair work.

goto124
2016-04-13, 06:53 AM
I think the former is probably the closest but I'm also trying to find suitable ways to make such things work and making it 'believable' I should say...

We just went through an entire thread of "Clothing as hindrance in combat" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480607-Clothing-as-hindrance-in-combat). Lots of content that may be worth looking through.

Consider: Would your players actually want to go through the mechanics of clothing? Why can't the players just say their characters has enough experience with their clothing to get it tailored carefully enough for combat? It's easy enough that 1) an adventurer would already do that, 2) any issues that crop up would be solved quickly, 3) clothing hindrance should occur infrequently enough that an ad-hoc "-1 to Dex checks" works well enough.

Bloodtomb
2016-04-13, 11:21 AM
You aren't going to be able to go to far off the shoulder let alone strapless because the corded bodice used for bust support has straps. The only other non-corset form of support that I've seen vague references to in the period is a triangle bra which gives much less support and still has straps. Even if your lady has a small enough chest that she doesn't need much support strapless and off the shoulder dresses have an unfortunate tendency to not stay put when engaging in vigorous exercise. Also depending on how realistic you want to go exposing any cleavage at all was a big no-no for day dresses and even formal evening dresses tended to not show that much. Another odd little historical tidbit, exposing one's upper arms/armpit was scandalous no matter the occasion; even the most daring formal dresses would have lace sleeves or very short flaps of sleeve to cover those bits.

The skirt on the green dress is pretty much exactly what a culotte and overskirt combo will end up looking like (maybe with a shorter overskirt) and the Night Circus dress is pretty close as well (BTW the Night Circus is am awesome awesome book.)

However you want to swing it though your lady will need to have a close an intimate relationship with an expert seamstress who knows what her customer's needs are in terms of movement and who's willing to do some pretty frequent repair work.

I guess in a more realistic Victorian setting, I would imagine the character would mostly appear like this perhaps: http://agregor.deviantart.com/art/Amber-Through-the-breach-Malifaux-595567227

As for the "off the shoulder" dress designs I wonder if anyone of these are acceptable for example this design (http://joebenitez.deviantart.com/art/Lady-Mechanika-Masquerade-192470032?q=gallery%3Ajoebenitez%2F31014532&qo=63)? (Well spoiler alert though, she actually ends up ripping/destroying the dress at the end of issue 4/5 I think when she got into a combat situation hence why I've asked about self-repairing clothing.)

There's others as well.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_4tLD5lHMYw/VVi6t_Lhw8I/AAAAAAAANKs/8jlx_NkA5dA/s1600/DSC01454.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dXigPaFP4EI/U7o-rXhNgDI/AAAAAAAAJG4/i3H226JoL5c/s1600/IMG_7977-MOTION.gif

http://alice-corsets.deviantart.com/art/Feathered-Victorian-Gown-505079406

http://tadarida.deviantart.com/art/1869-2-163007147

http://monica-ng.deviantart.com/art/Frozen-in-time-135838089

Or perhaps something like this?: https://jonathanjanz.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/fevre-dream-41.jpg

(well maybe I think you may have missed this image from my last post: http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=a3dcgrau8epns18s70ctd19jr5&action=dlattach;topic=3650.0;attach=4061;image )

Knaight
2016-04-13, 11:51 AM
The actual picture from the game (or from public clip art that made it in, more likely) is on page 2 of the linked thread. It's about an ankle length skirt, reasonably flat terrain, and the duel is courtly fencing with small swords.

So, given the circumstances, it's not particularly bad equipment.

Fri
2016-04-13, 12:27 PM
Amusingly, I stumbled to something kinda related to this today, completely independent of this thread.

from wikipedia "did you know"


...in 1893, 16-year-old Tessie Reynolds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessie_Reynolds) cycled from Brighton to London and back in a rational outfit? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_dress_reform)

The Fury
2016-04-13, 01:15 PM
Well, there actually does exist some historical precedent for this. There was Edith Margaret Garrud, who was an early 20th century suffragette that trained in jujitsu. True, that's actually Edwardian but similar-ish.

http://www.nycsteampunk.com/bartitsu/events/suffragettes.jpg

I guess outfits like these were suitable for jujitsu.

There's also Las Soldaderas from the Mexican Revolution, which I've always liked. To me they look like the school teacher from a cowboy movie if she went action all hero.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3410/4575667074_7996576de8.jpg

Zale
2016-04-13, 01:27 PM
The Faeries of Ars Magica could probably do this without much trouble, since fighting in an impractical outfit isn't that much more of an impediment than the fact that they're pretending to know how to fight.

Um, which is to say that Faeries don't actually do anything, they just pretend to do things really well.

I have a lovely quote about that, in fact (http://forum.atlas-games.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=30805#p227645).


Keep in mind, Faeries are really good pretenders; they may not understand demons, but then, they also don't understand how to swing swords, speak, or think. They just give the illusion of doing those things because they're incredibly good at acting; they're arguably as good at acting as demons are at lying. They act so well like their role that they convince themselves they are their role, so if you read their mind, you'll find the appropriate things for the role; they act like they know how to swing a sword so well that they inflict the same wounds on you that a skilled swordsman would; they're so good at pretending to understand and communicate with you that they can speak languages they've never seen, heard, or even heard of before (as long as it fits their role to be able to speak that language, as it usually does).

So they would be perfectly able to sword-fight in a ballgown, because they're only pretending to sword fight to begin with. It's like how in films a person can be pretending to play a musical instrument; to everyone who knows how to be play it the faking is blatantly obvious, but the film treats it as actually working.

But they're explicitly magic, and so probably not a good example of fighting in impractical clothing for actual people.

Douche
2016-04-13, 02:52 PM
In my games we don't even allow women to do any combat whatsoever.

One time we had a new player who was a girl, she came with a character sheet where she was a female paladin of Pelor. Women cannot have any positions of power or prestige in religion in our campaign setting. We laughed so extraneously that we could not stop laughing for like 15 minutes, and the DM was all "GTFO pleb" we never heard from her again. It was great.

Then we all drank mountain dew.

Bloodtomb
2016-04-13, 03:05 PM
In my games we don't even allow women to do any combat whatsoever.

One time we had a new player who was a girl, she came with a character sheet where she was a female paladin of Pelor. Women cannot have any positions of power or prestige in religion in our campaign setting. We laughed so extraneously that we could not stop laughing for like 15 minutes, and the DM was all "GTFO pleb" we never heard from her again. It was great.

Then we all drank mountain dew.

Obvious Troll derailment is obviously detected...

digiman619
2016-04-13, 03:34 PM
In my games we don't even allow women to do any combat whatsoever. One time we had a new player who was a girl, she came with a character sheet where she was a female paladin of Pelor. Women cannot have any positions of power or prestige in religion in our campaign setting. We laughed so extraneously that we could not stop laughing for like 15 minutes, and the DM was all "GTFO pleb" we never heard from her again. It was great. Then we all drank mountain dew. I can only pray you forgot to make that text blue.

tensai_oni
2016-04-13, 03:44 PM
I can only pray you forgot to make that text blue.

I don't think blue'ing the post is necessary there. It's not something non-GitP forums do anyway.

Personally I'd never give penalties for fighting in a dress or any kind of impractical attire for that matter. This is because I don't play for simulationism or realism, but also because there are few things cooler than seeing a female character kick ass while wearing a huge ballgown.

Anonymouswizard
2016-04-13, 03:46 PM
Um, which is to say that Faeries don't actually do anything, they just pretend to do things really well.

I'm now trying to imagine exactly how faeries can have children with mortals.

SethoMarkus
2016-04-13, 03:51 PM
I'm now trying to imagine exactly how faeries can have children with mortals.

You know the trope about faking the O? Knock it up about ten notches. (No pun intended.)

The Glyphstone
2016-04-13, 03:53 PM
You know the trope about faking the O? Knock it up about ten notches. (No pun intended.)

So half-fairies don't actually exist, they're just an illusion so convincing that everyone, even themselves, think they are real?

Donnadogsoth
2016-04-13, 05:07 PM
Okay so for reference I'm a steampunk costumer who also studies the history of fashion semi-professionally but I have no experience with fencing. But here's my take on it starting from the inner layers of a late 1800's dress going out.

The innermost layers, the chemise and drawers aren't a problem. Drawers are about as comfortable and easy to move in as a modern shorts and chemise's aren't usually much more difficult.

The first major problem you run into is the corset....

Would any of these interesting observations translate into mechanical modifiers of any kind for your system of choice?

Bloodtomb
2016-04-13, 05:40 PM
Okay so for reference I'm a steampunk costumer who also studies the history of fashion semi-professionally but I have no experience with fencing. But here's my take on it starting from the inner layers of a late 1800's dress going out.

The innermost layers, the chemise and drawers aren't a problem. Drawers are about as comfortable and easy to move in as a modern shorts and chemise's aren't usually much more difficult.

Okay but I still kinda prefer going without any undergarments underneath the dress which maybe theoretically it would give them better movement and well especially like how they used to do it before the 19th century where women just wore corset and layers of dresses except for boots.

Then again though did every woman worn knickers/drawers/etc in the 19th century or not all of them did?

SethoMarkus
2016-04-13, 06:40 PM
So half-fairies don't actually exist, they're just an illusion so convincing that everyone, even themselves, think they are real?

Yes.

Or, what if just the faerie exists, and the entire world is just an elaborate illusion =o

Also, found this (http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/h/history-of-fashion-1840-1900/) that might be helpful. It seems the major foci of fashion of the era were long bell-shaped skirts, sloping shoulders, and hair pulled to the side r back depending on decade.

Bloodtomb
2016-04-13, 09:20 PM
Also, found this (http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/h/history-of-fashion-1840-1900/) that might be helpful. It seems the major foci of fashion of the era were long bell-shaped skirts, sloping shoulders, and hair pulled to the side r back depending on decade.

I guess these are the type of designs I must be talking about especially the "Off the Shoulder" dresses:

http://media.vam.ac.uk/feature/lightbox/v1/album_images/56800-large.jpg

http://media.vam.ac.uk/feature/lightbox/v1/album_images/56806-large.jpg

Only except though I'll take a more gothic approach to these dresses (like black in color, skull pattern, goth boots) similar to this (https://www.pinterest.com/pin/553872454145618197/) since I'm looking towards the "Mary Shelly" look (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Shelley#/media/File:RothwellMaryShelley.jpg) as in her portraiture (like the off the shoulder outlines) and such in more gothic horror gaslight fantasy stories while in Steampunk/gas light fantasy of the later Victorian era would look more like this (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/73/b2/57/73b257b2993868ad903ee29c8504ed74.jpg).


The Faeries of Ars Magica could probably do this without much trouble, since fighting in an impractical outfit isn't that much more of an impediment than the fact that they're pretending to know how to fight.

Um, which is to say that Faeries don't actually do anything, they just pretend to do things really well.

I have a lovely quote about that, in fact (http://forum.atlas-games.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=30805#p227645).

So they would be perfectly able to sword-fight in a ballgown, because they're only pretending to sword fight to begin with. It's like how in films a person can be pretending to play a musical instrument; to everyone who knows how to be play it the faking is blatantly obvious, but the film treats it as actually working.

But they're explicitly magic, and so probably not a good example of fighting in impractical clothing for actual people.

I guess Faeries would look more like this (http://starlitdragon.deviantart.com/art/Arshisa-Vernim-81551088)?

Well although I'm thinking more of Vampires since I'm thinking of a "Castlevania: Symphony of the Night" type story or setting where PCs/Protagonist is a Vampire woman wondering around the Castle killing monsters in a elegant ballroom dress.

Or the other "Steampunk" setting would be the original concept of "Bioshock: Infinite" where Columbia used to be a Art Nouveau flying city where the female protagonist would be wearing a walking day dress or later on she puts on a late 19th century elegant ballroom dress ala Lady Mechanika...

Zale
2016-04-13, 10:21 PM
I'm now trying to imagine exactly how faeries can have children with mortals.

Just because the faerie's actions are pretend doesn't mean those actions can't have real results.

I mean, a faerie duelist may have no idea of how swords work at all; just flail it around dramatically. But the fact that there's no relation between what she's doing and how sword-fighting works won't stop her from killing you.

So a faerie can totally pretend childbearing so strongly that it results in an actual real child.

Or at least as real as anything part faerie. The jury's still out on if they exist when no one's watching them.

goto124
2016-04-14, 01:23 AM
"How did you fight in an off-shoulder dress?"
"Transparent straps hold my dress onto my shoulders.

... What? It's a simple solution!"

Mr. Mask
2016-04-14, 03:41 AM
The discussion of hoop-skirts makes me wonder if you could have a flexible hoop in it, flexible enough that it will compress and change shape when you need it to through the application of pressure.

Coidzor
2016-04-14, 04:33 AM
The Faeries of Ars Magica could probably do this without much trouble, since fighting in an impractical outfit isn't that much more of an impediment than the fact that they're pretending to know how to fight.

Um, which is to say that Faeries don't actually do anything, they just pretend to do things really well.

I have a lovely quote about that, in fact (http://forum.atlas-games.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=30805#p227645).



So they would be perfectly able to sword-fight in a ballgown, because they're only pretending to sword fight to begin with. It's like how in films a person can be pretending to play a musical instrument; to everyone who knows how to be play it the faking is blatantly obvious, but the film treats it as actually working.

But they're explicitly magic, and so probably not a good example of fighting in impractical clothing for actual people.

...I've just given myself a migraine trying to wrap my head around the concept of something that doesn't know anything so it pretends despite the fact that if it doesn't know anything it shouldn't know that it needs to pretend to be doing anything...

Ow.

goto124
2016-04-14, 06:02 AM
Ow.

Reality gives up trying to understand and thus accept the faeries' pretense as real :smallbiggrin:

Lorsa
2016-04-14, 07:36 AM
...I've just given myself a migraine trying to wrap my head around the concept of something that doesn't know anything so it pretends despite the fact that if it doesn't know anything it shouldn't know that it needs to pretend to be doing anything...

Ow.

Just pretend you understand and the migraine goes away.

LokiRagnarok
2016-04-17, 01:35 AM
...I've just given myself a migraine trying to wrap my head around the concept of something that doesn't know anything so it pretends despite the fact that if it doesn't know anything it shouldn't know that it needs to pretend to be doing anything...

Ow.
I would assume they are doing it on pure instinct... I don't know about the particular fae of Ars Magica, but in general, fae are not exactly known for being guided by logic...

goto124
2016-04-17, 03:32 AM
I thought they are guided by logic, just something closer to dream logic or Alice In Wonderland logic...

Anonymouswizard
2016-04-17, 04:41 AM
I thought they are guided by logic, just something closer to dream logic or Alice In Wonderland logic...

Oh, they can certainly pretend to be guided by logic.

Âmesang
2016-04-17, 09:33 AM
"How did you fight in an off-shoulder dress?"
"Transparent straps hold my dress onto my shoulders.

... What? It's a simple solution!"
Honestly in a magical world why wouldn't some make judicious use of permanent invisibly? Invisible undies!

…or maybe just a dullop of sovereign glue? :smalltongue: Honestly I can also imagine a modified necklace of adaptation/iridescent spindle ioun stone (set in a brooch?) so a person could wear any kind of corset without needing to breath.

goto124
2016-04-17, 10:55 AM
…or maybe just a dullop of sovereign glue? :smalltongue:

Guess what (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_OYbXwoUtyU/VKZ_7DDVHzI/AAAAAAAABvk/NwPgRpOseG0/s1600/bathingclotheson.png) you need to shower in (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMyjUc8Y-F0) for the rest of your life...

((Apparently, there are people as weird as the Sims.))

soldersbushwack
2016-04-18, 02:22 PM
I'd imagine something like ballet clothing (but not ballet shoes obviously) would be more practical for moving around a lot and still look feminine. Although it would obviously not be very armoured.