What are the best True Polymorph forms?

[NewDM]

Which are the best True Polymorph forms to cheese this spell?

My picks are Death Knight and Adult Red Dragon.

Death Knight has a lot of nice features including spells as well as being hard to kill.

Adult Red Dragon gets Legendary saves and actions.

[Sigreid]

Which are the best True Polymorph forms to cheese this spell?

My picks are Death Knight and Adult Red Dragon.

Death Knight has a lot of nice features including spells as well as being hard to kill.

Adult Red Dragon gets Legendary saves and actions.

I would suggest that a silver or gold dragon would be better than red solely based on the built in polymorph for when being a dragon is inconvenient.

[RickAllison]

I'll take an adult shadow dragon. Breath weapon gets you an army of shadows that are dedicated to you. If you have someone who can Dispel it, you then can True Polymorph your loyal shadow army into loyal kobolds who you can train to have class levels.

Rakshasa are great for survival. Immunity to all spells 6th level and below, and then immunity to nonmagical weapons. Less offensive, but great defense.

[Degwerks]

Planetar can be pretty useful and my favorite besides Death Knight is the Arcanaloth.

Heat Metal and Magic Missile at will, and spells as a 16th level caster. Truesight, telepathy and all languages, teleportation, and flight.

[Gtdead]

I hardly consider turning into a monster permanently as cheese. You lose too much.
You can however turn into a dragon, establish a lair and raise your CR, then polymorph into a higher cr dragon, repeat. That's cheese. You are going to need a few left over simulacra from the other thread ^^

Shapechange gives more cheesy options, like a Pit Fiend bladesinging, with shield spell mastery. Have fun erasing the existence of every monster in the MM.
You can get a simulacrum to do the same, it's better to murder stuff with company after all.

[Degwerks]

I plan on taking True Polymorph when I hit level 17 with my warlock. I will use it for when the pally or myself are out of spell slots, for less than hour duration though.

[JumboWheat01]

I find the idea of a Dragon Sorcerer True Polymorphing into a dragon that matches their ancestry for a bit of time (making sure to end the spell before it becomes permanent,) the most thematic use of the spell.

[Foxhound438]

Hi, I'm just here to remind everyone how much I like pit fiends.

TP into pit fiend is in fact pretty good. You will be made of damage and effectively +1 plate armor.

Could be fun RP to become a pit fiend and take political control of an area.

[druid91]

I hardly consider turning into a monster permanently as cheese. You lose too much.
You can however turn into a dragon, establish a lair and raise your CR, then polymorph into a higher cr dragon, repeat. That's cheese. You are going to need a few left over simulacra from the other thread ^^

Shapechange gives more cheesy options, like a Pit Fiend bladesinging, with shield spell mastery. Have fun erasing the existence of every monster in the MM.
You can get a simulacrum to do the same, it's better to murder stuff with company after all.

It depends on how you look at it.

It's really only particularly useful at level 18-19-20 Because at that point you're approaching a plateau of power. You won't be getting any stronger, character-wise.

So, you take that and invest it in turning yourself to a high CR monster. Preferably as high as you can get, but in some cases it's worth it to take a lower CR.

Because from there, you can just start over as an Adult [insert metallic type] dragon. Take a level in whatever class you were before. And start over from level 1, only with the advantage of being a dragon when you want to be.

It's a loss of power sure. But you also gain another power and open up a new avenue to keep on going with the same game.

[RulesJD]

Pit Fiend or a Dragon are the obvious choices.

But frankly I don't get why you'd want to. All potential choices are weaker than a Wizard who can abuse their spell list to be literally immortal (Demiplane + Clone) and have access to spells that straight murderhobo those forms you could turn into (Wall of Force, Forcecage, Maze, etc).

[druid91]

Pit Fiend or a Dragon are the obvious choices.

But frankly I don't get why you'd want to. All potential choices are weaker than a Wizard who can abuse their spell list to be literally immortal (Demiplane + Clone) and have access to spells that straight murderhobo those forms you could turn into (Wall of Force, Forcecage, Maze, etc).

Wizard 20 True Polymorphs into an Adult Gold Dragon, or Adult Gold Shadow Dragon if he's a necromancer. After setting his spellbook on the wizard towers coffee table. Maintains it for the full duration. And is now an Adult Gold Dragon with a few dozen centuries ahead of him.

He goes back inside, picks up his spellbook, and sets about re-training himself as a wizard. Possibly with a handy manual of 'translating your wizardry body movements to dragon.' he wrote before with the help of the dragon sorcerer who he turned earlier that week.

So now he's an Adult Gold Dragon Wizard. Level 1. He's still an adult gold dragon and thus fully capable of getting into trouble above the ken of a level 1 wizard. Meaning he's going to level rapidly. Until eventually he'll regain his full wizard potential. But also be able to crush a warriors head with his bare hands/terrifying organic scythes they call claws. Fly. And breath fire.

[RickAllison]

Pit Fiend or a Dragon are the obvious choices.

But frankly I don't get why you'd want to. All potential choices are weaker than a Wizard who can abuse their spell list to be literally immortal (Demiplane + Clone) and have access to spells that straight murderhobo those forms you could turn into (Wall of Force, Forcecage, Maze, etc).

Keep in mind that nothing prevents the wizard from making his clone in case he dies while in his TP form. He can be an epic dragon, but will be able to PPP back into his Clone if he ever dies.

[RulesJD]

Keep in mind that nothing prevents the wizard from making his clone in case he dies while in his TP form. He can be an epic dragon, but will be able to PPP back into his Clone if he ever dies.

Was going to say that I don't think you can take class levels after you TP, but I forgot entirely about the Clone spell. That's actually a perfect point and suddenly perma TP is valuable again. Worst case scenario you just suicide and poof, back to where you started anyways.

[RickAllison]

Was going to say that I don't think you can take class levels after you TP, but I forgot entirely about the Clone spell. That's actually a perfect point and suddenly perma TP is valuable again. Worst case scenario you just suicide and poof, back to where you started anyways.

I have a question actually: can one have multiple Clones?

[druid91]

Was going to say that I don't think you can take class levels after you TP, but I forgot entirely about the Clone spell. That's actually a perfect point and suddenly perma TP is valuable again. Worst case scenario you just suicide and poof, back to where you started anyways.

You actually can. You just need high enough ability scores to justify it. So a 13 in the classes key skill. Which generally speaking a dragon is going to have.

[Foxhound438]

Was going to say that I don't think you can take class levels after you TP, but I forgot entirely about the Clone spell. That's actually a perfect point and suddenly perma TP is valuable again. Worst case scenario you just suicide and poof, back to where you started anyways.

there's still true res if you die even without clone. Needs a friend, but how often have you gone on an adventure alone in this game?

[RulesJD]

there's still true res if you die even without clone. Needs a friend, but how often have you gone on an adventure alone in this game?

A proper Wizard needs no friends. That's what incalculable power is for.

Where does it say you can take class levels after a TP?

[druid91]

A proper Wizard needs no friends. That's what incalculable power is for.

Where does it say you can take class levels after a TP?

It says monsters can take class levels in the DMG. Since all TP does is turn you into a monster....

[R.Shackleford]

A proper Wizard needs no friends. That's what incalculable power is for.

Where does it say you can take class levels after a TP?

How hard would it to get some hair of a high level cleric?

I'll trade you X (utter destruction of a rival temple from the country and no one can trace it back to you) if you give me some hair might be weird but still effective.

I'm pretty sure you could dominate someone into following you and have them level up in cleric or druid (wait, druids get true res?) and then you can grow your own friend.

Edit

Dominate spells may not work but "yo, wanna screw stuff up with a dragon" could.

[NewDM]

There are several things that posters in this thread don't seem to realize about True Polymorph:


While permanent, it can be dispelled.
When the target of the spell reaches 0 hit points they revert back to their original form, this is true even while the permanent duration is in effect.

[Foxhound438]

It says monsters can take class levels in the DMG. Since all TP does is turn you into a monster....

that would likely become a DM discretion thing. If a player said they were going to start training to become a wizard again, I'd say "yep, you certainly try to gain wizard powers..."

[druid91]

There are several things that posters in this thread don't seem to realize about True Polymorph:


While permanent, it can be dispelled.
When the target of the spell reaches 0 hit points they revert back to their original form, this is true even while the permanent duration is in effect.


Once permanent, the spell is over. There's nothing to dispel. You're just a whatever.

And no, once permanent. It's permanent. You do not revert when you reach 0 hit points. You do not revert when you die. The Duration is not permanent. The Effect of 'being turned into a whatever' is permanent.

Kinda like the Animorphs.


that would likely become a DM discretion thing. If a player said they were going to start training to become a wizard again, I'd say "yep, you certainly try to gain wizard powers..."

The entire game is kind of a DM discretion thing.

Personally, if I were the player in that case, I'd make you give a solid, non-meta reason that a dragon who was once a wizard could not adapt the learned art of wizardry to his new form. It's not as if it's a game breaking move.

[NewDM]

Once permanent, the spell is over. There's nothing to dispel. You're just a whatever.

And no, once permanent. It's permanent. You do not revert when you reach 0 hit points. You do not revert when you die. The Duration is not permanent. The Effect of 'being turned into a whatever' is permanent.

Kinda like the Animorphs.



The entire game is kind of a DM discretion thing.

Personally, if I were the player in that case, I'd make you give a solid, non-meta reason that a dragon who was once a wizard could not adapt the learned art of wizardry to his new form. It's not as if it's a game breaking move.

It turns out we are both wrong. According to Mearls: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/10/11/permanent-true-polymorph/

Its permanent until dispelled. So you would be a dead whatever until someone came along and rezzed you or cast dispel magic on you.

[R.Shackleford]

It turns out we are both wrong. According to Mearls: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/10/11/permanent-true-polymorph/

Its permanent until dispelled. So you would be a dead whatever until someone came along and rezzed you or cast dispel magic on you.

Mearles isn't even RAI for 5e. Mearles has stated time and time again his responses is how *he* would rule it.

[druid91]

And to be fair, he doesn't say "Until dispelled" He says it would require magical intercession. For example, another true polymorph. Or perhaps a wish spell.

[RulesJD]

Mearles isn't even RAI for 5e. Mearles has stated time and time again his responses is how *he* would rule it.

I would treat it as Animate Dead.

Once the duration becomes Permanent, you've de facto expended the magical energy and so Dispel Magic doesn't do squat. Granted there are permanent spells that can be dispelled, but here it would seem more akin to Animate Dead than anything else.

But the Clone thing is definitely a RAW/RAI. Just keep popping up Demiplanes + Clones and you're in effect immortal.

[MaxWilson]

Which are the best True Polymorph forms to cheese this spell?

My picks are Death Knight and Adult Red Dragon.

Death Knight has a lot of nice features including spells as well as being hard to kill.

Adult Red Dragon gets Legendary saves and actions.

The best cheese I know of is for a Necromancer to True Polymorph an enemy (or your own Simulacrum?) into a Mummy Lord, Feeblemind it, take control (Command Undead feature), and then use Greater Restoration to heal the Feeblemind. Now you have a permanent mummy lord who is not only a high-level spellcaster but also does potentially 100+ points of damage per round of necrotic damage, is immune to normal weapons, and comes back to life if killed.

The shadow dragon/shadow army cheese is pretty good too (or at least "good") if you're into indiscriminate murder of peasants.

True Polymorphing stones into Nycaloths for yourself to Planar Bind is pretty decent too.

[NewDM]

I would treat it as Animate Dead.

Once the duration becomes Permanent, you've de facto expended the magical energy and so Dispel Magic doesn't do squat. Granted there are permanent spells that can be dispelled, but here it would seem more akin to Animate Dead than anything else.

But the Clone thing is definitely a RAW/RAI. Just keep popping up Demiplanes + Clones and you're in effect immortal.

Yep. The way I originally interpreted it was that the spell was still a magical effect, after 1 hour it just stopped having a limit to its duration. How Mearls views it, the spell is a permanent effect after 1 hour until magically interrupted. Yeah, Clone and Contingency make you effectively immortal.

[Asmotherion]

I'd say Gold Dragon... or any metalic dragon really, I just like to RP with high charisma.

Also I doubt true polymorph has you loose access to your spellcasting. As long as the new form can cast spells, you should too. A dragon is a natural born spellcaster, can speak and can make somatic components with his claws or in humanoid form...

[brainface]

Dragon turtle.
#1: It's a dragon.
#2: It's a turtle.

[RickAllison]

Dragon turtle.
#1: It's a dragon.
#2: It's a turtle.

Agreed. If only it could fly...

[JumboWheat01]

Dragon turtle.
#1: It's a dragon.
#2: It's a turtle.

And it tastes great when stewed and boiled. Enough to feed a whole town too!

[R.Shackleford]

Agreed. If only it could fly...

Ninja Headband of Flight

When you attune to this headband it magically grows to fit across your head and covers your eyes. Two eye slots open up. When you wear This item you have a flight speed of 120'. This headband can not be removed until you end the attunement.

This magical item comes in red, blue, orange, or purple.

[SharkForce]

Ninja Headband of Flight

When you attune to this headband it magically grows to fit across your head and covers your eyes. Two eye slots open up. When you wear This item you have a flight speed of 120'. This headband can not be removed until you end the attunement.

This magical item comes in red, blue, orange, or purple.

i prefer rocket boots (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNBItyTjS_c), myself.

(edit: if you by chance don't have 90 minutes or so, you may prefer to go here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-UACM_8q_Q) instead.)

[Dawnstrider]

Dragon turtle.
#1: It's a dragon.
#2: It's a turtle.

PC in the half shell?

[krugaan]

PC in the half shell?

I can only imagine what your average tavern scene would look like.

[JumboWheat01]

PC in the half shell?

Does pizza even exist in the realms?

[JoeJ]

i prefer rocket boots (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNBItyTjS_c), myself.

(edit: if you by chance don't have 90 minutes or so, you may prefer to go here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-UACM_8q_Q) instead.)

Interestingly, 2e really did have a giant snapping turtle from outer space (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/gammaroi.php). They eat giant space jellyfish (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/gossamer.php). I haven't seen a 5e conversion, though, and I don't know what the CR of something like that would be.

[SharkForce]

honestly, i'm pretty sure the only reason they had that monster was because someone wanted a giant stone turtle for the s'cro base.

edit: though it is obviously named after gamera :P

[R.Shackleford]

Interestingly, 2e really did have a giant snapping turtle from outer space (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/gammaroi.php). They eat giant space jellyfish (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/gossamer.php). I haven't seen a 5e conversion, though, and I don't know what the CR of something like that would be.

Wasn't there a really really big giant dragon title thing that would eat planets if magic items were used too much? Like, 1d4 days and then *death*.

[JoeJ]

Wasn't there a really really big giant dragon title thing that would eat planets if magic items were used too much? Like, 1d4 days and then *death*.

I don't remember that, but it's weird enough that it probably existed.

[JumboWheat01]

And that's why the giant space hamsters came into being, to protect our worlds from the scaly threat with their over-whelming warm and fuziness.

[Zalabim]

Weird. I could swear this question came up within the last few weeks and Crawford has a twitter answer saying that the intention of spells that become permanent is that they last until dispelled. I even told someone that the difference is spells become permanent usually in their rules description while until dispelled is typically what's listed in their duration entry. I think the SRD entry for True Polymorph was even already updated with this clarification/change. Maybe it was on a different website.

[NewDM]

Does pizza even exist in the realms?

Yes, due to a strange accident involving a pig, a cow, some small fish, a basket of tomatoes, a giant wheel of cheese, and a bread factory. We don't talk about it though.


Weird. I could swear this question came up within the last few weeks and Crawford has a twitter answer saying that the intention of spells that become permanent is that they last until dispelled. I even told someone that the difference is spells become permanent usually in their rules description while until dispelled is typically what's listed in their duration entry. I think the SRD entry for True Polymorph was even already updated with this clarification/change. Maybe it was on a different website.

I don't know about a few weeks, but Mearls made a twitter post that said it is indeed permanent until 'a magical effect' ends it. So when you die in true polymorph form you are just a dead body until someone casts dispel magic or raise dead on you.

I also just got done playing a 7th level 5E game and I used Polymorph (Mammoth) and did more damage and had more effect on a battle than the entire rest of the party. I took out about half a driders hit points in a single round. Later the DM said the encounter was deadly+.

[RickAllison]

If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation lasts until it is dispelled.

From the latest OGL/SRD. It is officially RAW.