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TGWG
2007-06-22, 10:40 PM
I have found the perfect race for the monk class, or so I think. It all depends on how the DM would rule it. The race I have found is the Half-giants. Their "powerful build" racial abilities allow them to function as if one size catagory larger in many cercumstances. I would rule that it also applies to determining unarmed attack damage, but I'm not the DM (for reasons unrelated to this). I would also argue that it would apply to the Monk's unarmed damage progression, if the Half-giant ever took monk levels.

the "tables" below will help you see how the powerful build racial abbility (if applied) will affect the monk's attacks

if powerful build is applied

1d8 at lev1-3
2d6 at lev4-7
2d8 at lev8-11
3d6 at lev12-15
3d8 at lev16-19
4d8 at lev20

powerful build with improved natural attack

1d8 at lev1-3
2d6 at lev4-5
3d6 at lev6-7
3d8 at lev8-11
4d6 at lev12-15
4d8 at lev16-19
6d8 at lev20

powerful build, natural attack, enlarge body

2d6 at lev1-3
3d6 at lev4-5
4d6 at lev6-7
4d8 at lev8-11
6d6 at lev12-15
6d8 at lev16-19
8d8 at lev20

8d8. 8d8!!! tell me that's not impressive!!! No non-epic enchanted weapon can do that much (post if there is one)!? Provided this damage output depends on a permanant enlarge body spell, the improved natural attack feat, and the half-giant's powerful build racial abillity which could or could not work with the monk's unarmed attack damage progression, but still, 8d8 is alot of damage. Now if only I could get his size catagory one larger for that 12d8. any sugestions?

Now impressive base damage aside. 8d8 This monk will still have alot of weaknesses. 8d8 the 8d hit dice still gives the monk a low hp. 8d8 without armor his AC will be realy low 8d8 and that 15 BAB realy digs into how many times he can hit the enemy. 8d8

heh...heh...*drool*... 8d8

*snaps out of it* Sorry. Whenever I think about that sweet 8d8 damage my mind begins to wonder.

so what do you think? Should the half-giant's powerful build apply to unarmed attack damage also? what about the monk's unarmed attack damage?

Starsinger
2007-06-22, 10:44 PM
On the one hand, I can see it being acceptable for powerful built to affect unarmed damage, on the other hand, it doesn't actually make the Half-Giant's hands Large... So, I can see it not affecting unarmed damage, too. Personally, I don't see why not. It's not like Monk is a strong class or anything.

Neon Knight
2007-06-22, 10:49 PM
Add in Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle. It allows you to be counted as a monk four levels higher for unarmed damage progression.

Piccamo
2007-06-22, 10:58 PM
8d8 is nice, but still only averages to 36 damage per swing. You need to pump your strength and wisdom. Also look for a source of pounce.

If you're set on this sort of build you could dip 1 level of barbarian and take the pounce variant. Also taking Superior Unarmed Strike would help you alot.

brian c
2007-06-22, 11:15 PM
Add in Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle. It allows you to be counted as a monk four levels higher for unarmed damage progression.

The only thing about that is that since Monk unarmed damage doesn't increase past level 20, that feat is only decent if don't plan on taking all levels of monk (it would work best with 16). Of course, I think a lot of people houserule monk unarmed damaged increasing after level 20, but by RAW a level 20 monk gets no benefit at all from Superior Unarmed Strike.

Neon Knight
2007-06-22, 11:19 PM
The only thing about that is that since Monk unarmed damage doesn't increase past level 20, that feat is only decent if don't plan on taking all levels of monk (it would work best with 16). Of course, I think a lot of people houserule monk unarmed damaged increasing after level 20, but by RAW a level 20 monk gets no benefit at all from Superior Unarmed Strike.

True. However, if you start below level 16, it is handy.

Superior Unarmed Strike is also limited for monks because of the +3 BAB requirment. Means 5 is the first level pure monks can take it. Of course, if you are going pure monk, you have bigger problems than that.

Ramza00
2007-06-22, 11:19 PM
Not to put rain on your parade, but a Human monk with a wand or wizard of Greater Mighty Wallop will be doing 12d8 damage (average 54, caster level of 16, 12 with improved natural attack.)

Generic PC
2007-06-22, 11:38 PM
But this isnt about A Human with a wand or a wizard with greater mighty wallop will be doing 12d8 damage. this is about the fact that TGWG has found that a monk can do more than 2d10 damage. However, on topic, would this work any differant with a Goliath? Half Ogre? also, Off Topic a little, is there any spell like Enlarge person, but that makes you two sizes bigger?

blue chicken
2007-06-23, 12:05 AM
Why yes, yes there is. Your problem is most easily solved. Make that ol' Monk (who, as a half-giant, just happens to be naturally psionic as well) into a Psionic Fist. Sure, it's a slow progression, especially without any levels of Psychic Warrior...but then again, Psionic Fist stacks with monk levels to determine unarmed damage and the like.

Heh heh.

Behold: Expansion! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm)

There's your two size categories. And pair that with some other powers...say, Force Screen...Painful Strike...Grip of Iron...maybe Dissolving Touch (that'd pend another house rule, of course, but it makes sense to me that if a strike with a sword can deal acid damage ala Dissolving Weapon, punching someone would do the regular AND acid damage as long as you hit their normal AC) and Animal Affinity for Str boosts...

I think the term you're looking for is "nasty beast."

But then again, a monk's a monk. Bleh for monks. Hurray for Psionics, however.

kyz
2007-06-23, 12:05 AM
One big fat monkey wrench in this scheme for MASSIVE UNARMED DAMAGE KINDA.

Powerful build allows them to function as Large in many ways, such as using weapons. RAW, though, it does not increase their unarmed damage. Or so I was told in the RAW FAQ thread awhile back.

Back to the cheese wheel.

TGWG
2007-06-23, 11:45 PM
Well it should. The way I understand Powerful build is that the half-giant's muscle density and bone strenght is much higher then that of any other race. This allows anyone with a powerful build to do feats of strenght that it no other race of the same size catagory can do, such as being more stable in a bullrush attempt, using weapons of larger size catagories without penelty, and even resist being swallowed whole, all due to a special racial ability. My reasoning is that if a half giant can do all of this becuase of a higher muscle density then it should also be able to do things like carry twice the load of a medium character of the same strength score, and punching harder. Effectively, acting in all ways like a character of one size catagory larger, except without the attack, and ac penalties.

I suppose scaling up the monk's unarmed strike could work equaly well with any race from the huge veriaty, but if the half giant's powerful build applies here then you can have a huge class unarmed strike, without the minus one to AC an attack (pretty cheap of me, eh?)

Now factoring in the psionic power expansion the monk's unarmed attack progression will be as follows

(This is with full expansion, enlarge body, powerful build, and improved natural attack)
4d6 at lev1-3
6d6 at lev4-5
8d6 at lev6-7
8d8 at lev8-11
12d6 at lev12-15
12d8 at lev16-19
16d8 at lev20

hm... 16d8... Can I get a "holy ****!"
Base damage doesn't get any higher! What's more, with superior unarmed strike and a monk's belt, this half-giant pack 16d8 at lev11!!!
Can I get a "holy ****!"
also I've looked at the damage of a greataxe, scaled up to collosal, and it only does 8d6 base damage. Even with enchantments - which don't scale with size (do they?) - their damage output will still pale in comparison.
Can I get a "holy ****!"
Now I know know that the monk's unarmed strike likes various kinds of ways to bypass damage reduction, but seriously which would you prefer, 1d10+1d6 or 16d8-10?
one last time people can I get a "holy ****!"

...

Of course, improving the monk's unarmed strike doesn't make up for the monk's weaknesses nor does it eliminate the weaknesses he's just made for himself. To do full damage the monk needs to take the psoinic fist PrC and have a spellcaster nearby who has prepared enlarge body that day, and not to mention the monk would also need sufficient room to grow or else risk the chance of being constrained, so claustrophobia will be an enevitable worry. Also, by scaling up his size to gargantuan he's lost 6 AC due to size and DEX penalties which will make his low hit dice (for a melee) even more telling.
With a size catagory of gargantuan you could theoreticaly wrestle a dragon (that'll be fun to see) but it still won't effect who the winner in such a fight would be.

...

what a way to put a damper on this build. By getting rid of one weakness (need for ways to get past DR) I've created several others. Back to the drawing bourd. Any way to help me com up with ideas?

and what's greater mighty wallop anyway?

Jack Mann
2007-06-24, 12:16 AM
It's not enlarge body, it's enlarge person. And it doesn't work on goliaths or half-giants.

Piccamo
2007-06-24, 12:16 AM
It's not enlarge body, it's enlarge person. And it doesn't work on goliaths or half-giants.

Additionally, Expansion does not stack with Enlarge Person.

You can say that the barb can't do as much damage, but you're not factoring other things (like PA) and if you're using splat books, so can the barb. 16d8 averages out to 72 damage. Every respectable meleer should be doing at least that by around level 12 - 14.

Rolling dice is fun, but its not everything. Static damage is more reliable and often scales better.

prufock
2007-06-24, 12:20 AM
Well it should. The way I understand Powerful build is that the half-giant's muscle density and bone strenght is much higher then that of any other race. This allows anyone with a powerful build to do feats of strenght that it no other race of the same size catagory can do, such as being more stable in a bullrush attempt, using weapons of larger size catagories without penelty, and even resist being swallowed whole, all due to a special racial ability. My reasoning is that if a half giant can do all of this becuase of a higher muscle density then it should also be able to do things like carry twice the load of a medium character of the same strength score, and punching harder. Effectively, acting in all ways like a character of one size catagory larger, except without the attack, and ac penalties.

Maybe it should, conceptually, but it doesn't work that way. Powerful build applies to size modifiers and special size modifiers for opposed checks, when determining if another creatures special attacks (like swallow whole) should apply, and using oversized weapons. That's it. The only way your build works is through DM fiat, and DM fiat can do, well, anything.

It isn't necessarily that their muscle density is any higher. That would simply be a strength bonus (which Half-giants already have). The text cites their "physical stature," which could include things like having a wider body than most races, having longer limbs, having a wider base stance, being particularly tall, and so on. It's basically an "in-between" size category - they're bigger than medium, but smaller than large - so they get only some of the benefits of a larger size.

kyz
2007-06-24, 12:24 AM
THe response to my question. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2671245&postcount=1438)

So, you could try to houserule it/slip it by a DM who doesn't know better, but otherwise it's pretty much not the norm

greenknight
2007-06-24, 05:59 AM
Rolling dice is fun, but its not everything. Static damage is more reliable and often scales better.

Besides, if you really want to roll those dice, it's better to go with sneak attacks. A Human Rogue 15 / Invisible Blade 5 adds 11d6 Sneak Attack damage per attack, has a BAB of 16 (base 4 attacks per round) and can make 7 attacks per round (using Two Weapon Fighting). That can be further boosted by Haste (or a Speed weapon) and/or Opportunist. Equip the character with a pair of Daggers, one +1 with Shock, Flaming, Corrosive (Magic Item Compendium), Deadly Precision (Magic Item Compendium), Desiccating (Magic Item Compendium), Screaming (Magic Item Compendium). The second one is the same, replacing Flaming with Frost, and adding the Speed ability. The first weapon is effectively a +7 enhancement, the second a +10 (that's nearly 300,000gp in enhancements alone, which is a major investment even for a character of this level).

In the end, that would potentially give you 9 attacks per round, with each attack doing 1d4 (base weapon damage) + 11d6 (Sneak Attack) + 4d6 (Corrosive, Shock, Flaming or Frost, Deadly Precision) + 2d4 (Disiccating, Screaming). Assuming all attacks hit and all effects work, you'd be rolling 27d4 + 135d6. If you made the daggers out of starmetal (Complete Arcane), you could potentially add another 9d6 to the total if you're fighting an Extraplaner creature.

Mind you, against any creature immune to critical hits or unable to be flanked (and there's enough of them at just about any CR), most of your extra damage potential goes away. And if it also has protection from several energy types (common in extraplaner beings), then you could find yourself doing next to no damage each round, which is a major weakness of this build (and there are several other major weaknesses as well, potentially making this character very vulnerable).

woc33
2007-06-24, 07:38 AM
Additionally, Expansion does not stack with Enlarge Person.

You can say that the barb can't do as much damage, but you're not factoring other things (like PA) and if you're using splat books, so can the barb. 16d8 averages out to 72 damage. Every respectable meleer should be doing at least that by around level 12 - 14.

Rolling dice is fun, but its not everything. Static damage is more reliable and often scales better.

16d8 averages out to 72 damage *per hit*, a level 20 monk has 5 attacks, at 15/15/15/10/5. if you throw in TWF in there that same monk could have 8 attacks at 13/13/13/8/3 and 13/8/3. i'd say it's a nice replacement for some other builds with many attacks per round.

lord_khaine
2007-06-24, 08:30 AM
yeah but the problem here is that as somone allready mentioned, to of those sources does not improve monk damage.
powefull build doesnt help, and expansion and enlarge person does not stack.

besides that, expansion to huge requires 7 manifester lvs, so its not that easy to pull off.

Piccamo
2007-06-24, 11:27 AM
16d8 averages out to 72 damage *per hit*, a level 20 monk has 5 attacks, at 15/15/15/10/5. if you throw in TWF in there that same monk could have 8 attacks at 13/13/13/8/3 and 13/8/3. i'd say it's a nice replacement for some other builds with many attacks per round.

Getting a full-attack is not all that easy to do. The easiest way now is a 1-level dip into barbarian to gain pounce. Then you are getting all of your attacks, unless you kill it before your full attack is up and there aren't other enemies close enough to attack. Its already a big problem for monks: Using their class abilities en tandem.

Zincorium
2007-06-24, 02:02 PM
16d8 averages out to 72 damage *per hit*, a level 20 monk has 5 attacks, at 15/15/15/10/5. if you throw in TWF in there that same monk could have 8 attacks at 13/13/13/8/3 and 13/8/3. i'd say it's a nice replacement for some other builds with many attacks per round.

Yeah. The problem is hitting anything. Seriously. All those size increases do not do good things for your attack bonus, and having a strength on par with the average fighter at that level is purely wishful thinking. You simply do not have the resources to spend on it.

That, and with the LA, you're getting into epic territory. Balors come in packs after you now.

So, with an attack bonus of 15, -4 for TWF and being huge, you need a bonus on attacks of at least 14 from strength and items just to hit on anything less than a 20 with your primary attacks. That sucks, seriously. The absolute highest strength you can get in a standard campaign is a half orc monk pumping strength like they had a fire sale on magical steroids (then somehow getting that augmented expansion, which it's never explained how you got one) is a whopping 40, for a total attack bonus of 15. Add a greater magic weapon for +5, heck, add weapon focus for +1 and you can actually hit on a 13 with your primary attacks, an 18 with your next rendition, and your last set still can't hit on anything less than a natural 20. And that's as good as you get. Anything else is going to require buffs.

Now, when you consider that with all those resources spent on strength, plus the dexterity and size penalties of being huge, your AC is going to be terrible. Expansion is, on the whole, not the best stratagem for monks. It just looks pretty when you're rolling dice.

The White Knight
2007-06-24, 02:10 PM
Semi-related question:

The Barbarian pounce feature that is often mentioned - this replaces Rage, I assume? Wouldn't it, then, be lost (as Rage is) when becoming lawful to qualify for the Monk class?

Jack Mann
2007-06-24, 02:18 PM
No, it replaces fast movement.

The White Knight
2007-06-24, 02:23 PM
Oh. I suppose that's more in the same vein, after all (although hardly equivalent in power/usefulness). Carry on.

lord_khaine
2007-06-24, 02:27 PM
its kinda sad that monk can benefit from a 1 lv dip into barbarian..

GoblinJTHM
2007-06-24, 02:28 PM
since monks can't lvl after taking any other class I guess they'd have to start as a barb then go all monk, no?

Indon
2007-06-24, 02:58 PM
Not to put rain on your parade, but a Human monk with a wand or wizard of Greater Mighty Wallop will be doing 12d8 damage (average 54, caster level of 16, 12 with improved natural attack.)

So what does a half-giant (or whatever) do with that same buff?

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-06-24, 04:53 PM
THe response to my question. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2671245&postcount=1438)

So, you could try to houserule it/slip it by a DM who doesn't know better, but otherwise it's pretty much not the norm

what would happen if you'd uses a gauntlet that is one size category higher?(please ignore proficiency issues)

greenknight
2007-06-24, 05:09 PM
what would happen if you'd uses a gauntlet that is one size category higher?(please ignore proficiency issues)

Then you'd be doing Gauntlet damage - for a Huge Gauntlet, that's 1d6, or 1d8 for a Gargantuan one. Note there's a difference between a Gauntlet and a Monk's unarmed attack - the Gauntlet means you have to hit with the Gauntlet, the unarmed attack can hit with almost any part of the body (fist, elbows, knees, and feet are the ones mentioned).

The White Knight
2007-06-24, 05:22 PM
Then you'd be doing Gauntlet damage - for a Huge Gauntlet, that's 1d6, or 1d8 for a Gargantuan one. Note there's a difference between a Gauntlet and a Monk's unarmed attack - the Gauntlet means you have to hit with the Gauntlet, the unarmed attack can hit with almost any part of the body (fist, elbows, knees, and feet are the ones mentioned).

Nope. Text trumps table. Read the description for the Gauntlet - all it does is make your unarmed damage lethal instead of nonlethal; it is otherwise identical to an unarmed strike. How this is intended to mesh with a monk's unarmed strike I cannot say, but you wouldn't be receiving any size-dependent damage gain.

greenknight
2007-06-24, 06:34 PM
Nope. Text trumps table.

Yep, and here's the text for the Monk's unarmed attack:

A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet.

Gauntlet isn't mentioned there, so it doesn't qualify.

Jack Mann
2007-06-24, 06:59 PM
What does that have to do with anything?

A gauntlet does the damage that the character's unarmed strike would do, period. If you attack with the gauntlet, you do the same damage as you would with your unarmed strikes. It doesn't matter if you're a monk or not. It doesn't matter what part of your body you normally attack with.

If you're a medium character (we'll say a dwarven fighter), and you use a large gauntlet, you do 1d3 damage, barring any special abilities that increase your unarmed strike damage. The only difference between this and a medium-sized gauntlet is that you're taking size difference penalties. That's the only difference.

Damionte
2007-06-24, 06:59 PM
I wouldn't actually allow you to use a gauintlet one size category larger. I generally rule that gauntlets have to be fitted like armor so if they're too large/ small you can't use them at all.

The White Knight
2007-06-24, 07:01 PM
greenknight:

Wait, I think I was either refuting something that you didn't quite mean to imply, or our wires are crossed, haha. Someone had mentioned using gauntlets of a larger size category (with powerful build) to augment their unarmed strike damage. I thought you agreed with the tactic, but were refuting only the Monk's ability to use it to any advantage. I was simply refuting the tactic as a whole, as using larger gauntlets, based on the gauntlet description, would seem to have no effect.

As for how the tactic applies to monks directly, it's ambiguous at best. The gauntlet does say that it is, effectively, an unarmed strike. I can't see it making much sense for a monk to throw on a pair of gauntlets and suddenly be incapable of effectively pummeling with his/her fists anymore... but then, these debates are never about sense, and all about rules. This is a point in the rules I've tossed around in my head for quite some time.

There is a relic in Complete Divine, the Gauntlets of the Talon, that has properties that augment a Monk's unarmed strikes, but this could just as easily be seen as a unique property of the relic and not suggest that gauntlets are fair play for Monks.

I'm not really sure of the intent, and the written rules are a little too ambiguous to simply say "RAW says <this>".

EDIT: simu'd...

GoblinJTHM
2007-06-24, 07:03 PM
Yep, and here's the text for the Monk's unarmed attack:

A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet.

Gauntlet isn't mentioned there, so it doesn't qualify.

Thats correct, a gauntlet used as a weapon counts as a weapon if im not mistaken (exotic?), as it is not an unarmed strike, but indeed an armed one as the gauntlet adds damage.

Ramza00
2007-06-24, 07:03 PM
and what's greater mighty wallop anyway?
Greater Mighty Wallop is a 3rd lvl wiz/sorc spell in races of the dragon. It increases the damage of your bludgeoning weapon as if it increased in size by caster level/4 size increases up to a maximum of 5 size increases or your weapon is effectively collosal size. (note your weapon doesn't actually get bigger it just does more damage as if it have).

Thus at caster level 16 you will get 4 size increases, enough to make a human do as much damage as if he is size collosal, that is the human cap, at caster level 20 you get 5 size increases enough to make a halfign or gnome do as much damage as a collosal creature.

If you houserule half giant and powerful build giving a size increase to unarmed damage. (Note this is a houserule, it isn't RAW, but let say we are doing this houserule.) then Greater Mighty Wallop still caps at the collosual size increase you just get to that damage faster.

How does Greater Mighty Wallop interact with Improved Natural Attack is debatable, is Improved Natural Attack a size increase or just a damage increase. Regardless it doesn't matter after you get 12d8 for the table on DMG p 28 doesn't go past 12d8. Thus an extrapolations from this table is once again a houserule.

The White Knight
2007-06-24, 08:37 PM
Thats correct, a gauntlet used as a weapon counts as a weapon if im not mistaken (exotic?), as it is not an unarmed strike, but indeed an armed one as the gauntlet adds damage.

Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. It counts as an unarmed strike, and even has its own section in the table with that very header, right under simple weapons. It also doesn't add damage - it just upgrades it from nonlethal to lethal without penalty. Check your PHB (or SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#gauntlet), if that's more your thing).

greenknight
2007-06-24, 08:51 PM
It counts as an unarmed strike, and even has its own section in the table with that very header, right under simple weapons.

Sure it counts as an unarmed strike. But it's not one of the attacks which Monks get their damage bonus with:


A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet.

The point here is that you're attacking with the Gauntlet, not the monk's regular unarmed strike.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-06-24, 08:54 PM
Well, I'm not sure it's the best race per se. But, if you can live with the LA, a Thri-kreen isn't bad. The good dex, fast speed (equating to little armor), and of course the whole four arm thing have lent itself very well to being a monk in my experience.

The White Knight
2007-06-24, 09:22 PM
Sure it counts as an unarmed strike. But it's not one of the attacks which Monks get their damage bonus with:

Quoteth the SRD:
A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet.

The point here is that you're attacking with the Gauntlet, not the monk's regular unarmed strike.

See, thing is, an attack with a gauntlet is considered, for all intents and purposes, an unarmed strike, and besides dealing lethal damage (which is of little consequence to a monk to begin with) is identical to just using your fist (which, as you've pointed out, is "one of the attacks which Monks get their damage bonus with"). Surely you can see where the ambiguity lies here?

Kemper Boyd
2007-06-25, 12:15 AM
I always thought that the Monk To End All Monks was a duergar monk. Who fights naked and rubs contact poison all over himself before a fight. And grapples his opponents.

Kioran
2007-06-25, 12:50 AM
Githzerai are actually really useful as Monks, with Bonus Wisdom and Dex as well as Automatic Inertial Armor (equivalent to inherent MAge Armor, so you don´t even need to bring in unsavory things like Psionics....The LA hurts, but they do make good monks.

lord_khaine
2007-06-25, 02:18 AM
regarding the gauntlet issue, if you look at the FAQ you will see that it does indeed do monk unarmed damage, and that you can even flurry with it.
the main problem is that monks are not proficient with gauntlets normaly.

ps, there is nothing unsavory about psionic, anyone who disagree deserves a CODzilla!

Zincorium
2007-06-25, 04:37 AM
Githzerai are actually really useful as Monks, with Bonus Wisdom and Dex as well as Automatic Inertial Armor (equivalent to inherent MAge Armor, so you don´t even need to bring in unsavory things like Psionics....The LA hurts, but they do make good monks.

The inertial armor is still a psi-like ability, so you've already brought in 'unsavory things like psionics' just playing one, and of course they have other psi-like abilities and bonus power points. They are a good race, but the LA hurts monks regardless, buyoff is a good thing to ask your DM about.

Fist of Zuoken is still a good deal, though. If it improved Flurry as well as damage and AC you wouldn't lose much.

The White Knight
2007-06-25, 12:42 PM
regarding the gauntlet issue, if you look at the FAQ you will see that it does indeed do monk unarmed damage, and that you can even flurry with it.
the main problem is that monks are not proficient with gauntlets normaly.


Sounds good enough for me. I assume, then, that the gauntlet can be enhanced for bonus damage/effects beyond this? Heckuva lot cheaper than an Amulet of Mighty Fists (which was actually part of the reasoning behind my own questioning of the legitimacy of using the gauntlet instead in the first place).

greenknight
2007-06-25, 05:39 PM
regarding the gauntlet issue, if you look at the FAQ you will see that it does indeed do monk unarmed damage, and that you can even flurry with it.

In that case, I'll have to agree, although I still think gauntlets should do gauntlet damage rather than the improved damage from a Monk's unarmed strike.

Curmudgeon
2007-06-26, 04:32 AM
I assume, then, that the gauntlet can be enhanced for bonus damage/effects beyond this? Heckuva lot cheaper than an Amulet of Mighty Fists Except for its properties regarding unarmed strikes, a regular gauntlet is a piece of armor, not a weapon. Thus it can have armor enhancements but not weapon enhancements.

lord_khaine
2007-06-26, 04:46 AM
no, a gauntlet is a simple weapon as mentioned before, that means it can be enchantet as a weapon, for 1/3 the price of a amulet of mighty fist.

Matthew
2007-06-27, 06:53 PM
*sigh*, the never ending Monk/Gauntlet/Unarmed Strike debate. Sadly, the FAQ is not as clear on this issue as is being made out here:

Dungeons & Dragons FAQ (April, 2007), p. 18.


Can a monk wear a gauntlet and still use her flurry of
blows? Does she gain any other special abilities of the
gauntlets with her unarmed strikes?
Technically, a gauntlet isn’t an unarmed strike (it has a
separate line on Table 7–5: Weapons in the Player’s
Handbook), and thus can’t be used as part of a flurry of blows.
A monk could wear gauntlets and still use flurry of blows, she
just couldn’t attack with the gauntlets as part of the flurry
(she’d be using her feet, elbows, knees, and so forth instead).
If that’s too much hairsplitting for you, treat a gauntlet
attack as effectively identical to an unarmed strike, except that
it always deals lethal damage (even when worn by a monk).
Many magic items called gauntlets aren’t necessarily using
the same terminology. Gauntlets of ogre power, for example,
aren’t always metal gloves. It’s conceivable that a monk might
be wearing magic gauntlets that grant a special benefit on her
unarmed strikes without those gauntlets also serving as
weapons in their own right. In this case, the monk is making
unarmed strike attacks, not gauntlet attacks.



Can a monk treat an attack with a gauntlet as an
unarmed strike?
A monk could wear such an item and treat it as an unarmed
strike (since the Player’s Handbook says that “a strike with a
gauntlet is . . . considered an unarmed attack”), although the
damage dealt by the gauntlet would always be considered lethal
damage (as noted in the gauntlet entry) and the monk would
suffer a nonproficiency penalty (since the gauntlet is a simple
weapon). The monk could even use gauntlet attacks as part of a
flurry of blows.

Much like the Light Shield/Spell casting issue, the FAQ is itself contradictory on this point and so it is going to be up to the individual DM to make a final ruling.
For what it's worth, I would rule that Monks are both Proficient with Gauntlets and can use them in this way; it is not unbalancing and a reasonable ruling.

Curmudgeon
2007-06-28, 10:00 AM
*sigh*, the never ending Monk/Gauntlet/Unarmed Strike debate. Sadly, the FAQ is not as clear on this issue as is being made out here:

Dungeons & Dragons FAQ (April, 2007), p. 18.


Much like the Light Shield/Spell casting issue, the FAQ is itself contradictory on this point and so it is going to be up to the individual DM to make a final ruling.
For what it's worth, I would rule that Monks are both Proficient with Gauntlets and can use them in this way; it is not unbalancing and a reasonable ruling. The FAQ has been "improved" in this regard by removing the first of the two answers you quoted in the current (Update Version: 06/15/07) release.

Matthew
2007-06-28, 11:17 PM
Really? Wow! That's good news. Did they do the same for the Light Shield Spell Casting question?

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-29, 12:07 AM
Alright, here we go for size:
Powerful build, expansion x2, bunch o' monk levels, that feat, imp natural attack, and, HERE'S THE KICKER: monky grip yourself a set of big gauntlets!!!!

















Alright, I'm admit it. I'm just yanking your spiked chains.

I really wish we could get a definitive ruling on how freakin' monks work.