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View Full Version : DM Help Running a large+open game.



CrazyCrab
2016-04-18, 07:37 PM
Hi everyone,

tl;dr I have a tendency to write overly long passages. To summarize it, I'm looking for tips on running an open (people coming and going) and huge (8+ players, one DM) game. I'm pretty good at the 1st thing, bad at the big game thing.

I recently started a new campaign (this week is going to be the 5th session) and while at first I was happy with the number of players (4-6, the usual stuff) the last two weeks have been really tough to DM as we end up with 8+ players.

Why, you may ask. Well, I am DMing for a 'Meetup', the London Dungeons and Dragons meetup, which means that our Saturday games are open - everyone should be able to drop by say hi and play. While I do have a lot of regulars (6+) I also often end up with complete newbies who have never played at the table or, sometimes, never played DnD before.

This means that every session I have to reintroduce the world (sometimes multiple times as 8+ people can be really loud) and then everyone new needs to make a character (another 30 mins) and then they need to be informed of what is going on... ugh. Don't get me wrong, I have made a lot of friends this way and it is fun, but it is somewhat becoming and chore and the people who come here every week are starting to enjoy it less and less as instead of starting at 13.30 we start at 14.45 if we are lucky. We still get things done most of the time, but I can tell that some people have heard my introduction one too many times.

So, here is my first question: any tips on running an open game? I have given it some thought and this is what I am using right now to make things easier for myself:

1 - 'Expeditions' format. An overarching story with small adventures. Usually one session is one adventure. Actually does not work with 8+ players, more on that later. This means that the regulars get to enjoy the politics and world building, while even the new players know what's going on and get to chop things.
2 - 'Alternative Universe' - I set the game in 15th century Europe to make things easy for new people, basing it on my long running EU4 campaign with some ''not so subtle'' changes (A lot of dragons. Can't have too many dragons.), with the players being conquistadores. This way everyone knows something about the world, while keeping the world fresh, as just like the actual conquistadores, the players don't know much about the new world. Also I don't need to explain to must people where France is. I would have to explain where the Kingdom of Kahlgesh is.
3 - 'Easy Experience' - every session you get 1/X of the way to the next level, where X is your proficiency bonus. Keeps things moving along nicely and easy to track. People don't also autokill everyone when they can get the exp anyway. With 8+ players they would never get any experience otherwise.

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My biggest problem is the party size though, and here I am completely lost.

I know that some players are new to roleplaying, but people have such a massive tendency to derail the story that while last week I was worried I don't have enough content we didn't even get 1/4 of the way through. For example, one of my friends is roleplaying an ******* (no other way to put it) nobleman. He kicks beggars, makes people carry him everywhere, etc. He is doing quite a good job at it and most people are enjoying it. Then we get a new player who takes it too seriously and while it's fair that his character doesn't like him, he starts going up to him and just rolling initiative. Then he gets massacred. Ok, so now we need to invent a plot point where he doesn't die (another 5-10 mins so that he does not have to make another character) ensure he somehow stays with the party (even though they don't even know him) etc... Also, more rolling for damage, etc... that takes forever.

And that's just one example of derailing. Another problem is shopping - some players are really into min maxing, treasure hunting, making deadly killing machines. Fair game. They even got into doing some buy cheap, sell expensive at different ports, hoping to make money for new loot. The thing is that most others are not too interested in shopping, yet every time we walk into a city they go straight for the shops... everyone else is getting bored.

Then I can't hear someone so he start punching NPCs so that I do hear him. Can't blame him it's hard to actually do something when everyone else wants to say something, but again, more distractions.

Combat is a painful slug, with 5+ mins between moves. Last fight I just said ''ok he's dead'' as 4 players were discussing the shape of a spell while 4 others were on their phones. I can't blame anyone, it is really boring to sit around for 5 mins without anything to do.

Seriously, I'm losing my faith in this campaign rather quickly, even though I was so, so enthusiastic at first. I made so many maps, characters, quests, everything, sticking to a freeform sandbox style to make sure I can smoothly run these single expeditions every week. The last expedition is going to be 3+ weeks - it takes the party 2 hours to find a boat. There are 2 boats in the port. Yes. I know.

I really need some help. Here is what I am planning to keep things moving along smoothly starting next session:
1 - 'no derailing' - yes, I know its funny, but you cannot voluntarily punch / steal from (with 3+ skill checks) / enslave fellow party members. It makes it interesting for the two of you, but the 6 others are waiting. Occasionally you are free to do this, but, even then, no skill checks pls. That just makes it tedious.
2 - 'you snooze you lose' - if you don't know what you're doing this turn, you're skipping your turn. You will probably still have 2-3 mins to plan your actions even with this rule. If you're on your phone when its not your turn and then need to plan when it is, sorry, but it's too late.
3 - 'MMO Shopping' - I figured this way the shoppers can have their fun. I'll prepare some stores in advance for each of the major cities, with limited stock and some fancy items. I'll give them the lists to study when the rest of the party is doing whatever, representing that they're just left behind shopping while the rest is in an inn etc.
4 - 'initiative tracker' - I'll print out cards with numbers on them. It's your turn? You move. Calling by name is more personal and more thematic ''As the fighter reaches for the monster's throat with his steel-clad gauntlets, you realize that you are once again capable of moving your limbs. What would you like to do, Thorin?'' but it just takes too long. I did this when we had 4 players and it was nice, but it won't work with 8 players.
5 - 'People can see spells' - we've had guidance on literally every single skill check, where nobody would roll a d20 without a d4, so I made it so that the guards are nervous when someone mumbles magicspeech and touches people. It's just a d20 most of the time now.

What do you think? Are some of these rules too strict? I know that some people love the setting and would like to just keep going, so I really want to make this work.

Thrudd
2016-04-18, 08:34 PM
For combat: implement group-based initiative instead of individual initiative. Dexterity has enough benefits already, without it determining your combat order as well. When it is the party's turn, everyone needs to pay attention, and decide in what order they will all act. This also makes marching order and positioning in-between battles important.

I agree with your "move it or lose it" policy. You need to do this for large groups. Everyone should be paying attention and thinking about what they will do when it is their turn. Give the group a loose time-limit to decide what they are doing and in what order, a few minutes at most. When the time is up, the group tells you the order they will be moving in, and you resolve the actions one player at a time. Anyone who doesn't know what they are doing when you get to them is doing nothing for that turn.

In old games, this is where one player was assigned as the "caller". The group discusses what they will do together, and then the caller acts as the official voice of the party when it comes to movements and actions. You don't need to try to listen to all the cross talk and address each player when they try to interrupt each other. Give them their time to talk about what they are doing, then when the few minutes is up, ask the caller to announce who is doing what and in what order. The caller is responsible for prompting the other players to make their move when it is their turn to do so, all you should have to do is ask for an action. If another player has an interjection to make during this process, that is fine, but it should not become a habit. If the table erupts into talking over each other, just shut it down and bring focus back to the specific action at-hand. Order must be maintained. The players can decide in each session or each combat or even each combat round who the caller will be, but there needs to be one, for everyone's sanity in such a large group.

hymer
2016-04-19, 12:41 AM
If you haven't seen it yet, there's the Westmarches (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/78/grand-experiments-west-marches/) campaign to look into,

SirBellias
2016-04-19, 07:46 AM
If you haven't seen it yet, there's the Westmarches (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/78/grand-experiments-west-marches/) campaign to look into,

I was going to recommend that, but then I realized that there was a reason that they limit their games to four people. It's still a good thing to look into for this style of game, and I've run this style with multiple people trading out relatively easily, but I just don't think it will work very well with too many people at once. People usually barely get where they're trying to go in one session, much less get back, and that was with six distracted players. Of course, the OP seems to have a good amount of experience with large groups so far, so he could probably adapt some of Steven's techniques to work.

hymer
2016-04-19, 07:49 AM
I was going to recommend that, but then I realized that there was a reason that they limit their games to four people.

It also shows a fair and reasonable way to limit the number at a given session, despite there being many players in the campaign. Everyone still gets to play. :smallsmile:

CrazyCrab
2016-04-19, 08:03 AM
If you haven't seen it yet, there's the Westmarches campaign to look into,

To be honest, his campaign was one of the reasons why I focused on this format. :smallwink:

My main problem is just running it with 8+ players... it just gets really tough. And the thing is that I've already turned down some of my friends as I can't imagine running 10+ players. We've got too many players, not enough DMs.

Geddy2112
2016-04-19, 08:22 AM
You seemed to have gotten a hold of all the problems for a large game.
My 2 cents on your solutions:


1 - 'no derailing' - yes, I know its funny, but you cannot voluntarily punch / steal from (with 3+ skill checks) / enslave fellow party members. It makes it interesting for the two of you, but the 6 others are waiting. Occasionally you are free to do this, but, even then, no skill checks pls. That just makes it tedious.
DM fiat this to be not allowed. Likewise, punish stupid evil, chaotic stupid, or really any other stupid action swiftly and violently. Don't let the nobleman a-hat keep his character alive. Kill him fast and violently, let this be a lesson to the group. Also, no PvP no exceptions. This is a group game, and the larger the game the more major a non team player becomes. Roll up a team player, or see your lone wolf rogue agent have rocks fall from the sky and roll up a group player.


2 - 'you snooze you lose' - if you don't know what you're doing this turn, you're skipping your turn. You will probably still have 2-3 mins to plan your actions even with this rule. If you're on your phone when its not your turn and then need to plan when it is, sorry, but it's too late. I give exactly seven seconds for players to start describing their actions-once they start give them some leeway as some spells and abilities are a bit complex in execution, but they should at least be getting them underway. It is not unrealistic for a character to have to think(a spellcaster thinks of which spell, a fighter waits and sees) you can give them the total defense action or whatever its system equivalent so they don't feel totally helpless.



3 - 'MMO Shopping' - I figured this way the shoppers can have their fun. I'll prepare some stores in advance for each of the major cities, with limited stock and some fancy items. I'll give them the lists to study when the rest of the party is doing whatever, representing that they're just left behind shopping while the rest is in an inn etc. Roleplaying mundane shopping is the outright worst thing you can do in a large game. Just let players who want to buy/sell buy and sell. So long as the item or service would reasonably be available, have it for sale. You can always make a quick % roll on the fly, but your list system works well too if you want to prepare.


4 - 'initiative tracker' - I'll print out cards with numbers on them. It's your turn? You move. Calling by name is more personal and more thematic ''As the fighter reaches for the monster's throat with his steel-clad gauntlets, you realize that you are once again capable of moving your limbs. What would you like to do, Thorin?'' but it just takes too long. I did this when we had 4 players and it was nice, but it won't work with 8 players.
Nominate another player to track initiative for the group. Cards work, or a whiteboard, whatever floats your boat. Group initiative of enemies and party members when possible.


5 - 'People can see spells' - we've had guidance on literally every single skill check, where nobody would roll a d20 without a d4, so I made it so that the guards are nervous when someone mumbles magicspeech and touches people. It's just a d20 most of the time now. Most spells have verbal and somatic components, and people might not know which spell it is but most know magic when they see it. Double enforce this for anything that creates an obvious visual effect like fireball.


What do you think? Are some of these rules too strict? I know that some people love the setting and would like to just keep going, so I really want to make this work. Not even close to too strict. Managing 8 players is a labor of love and if they don't want to give you the respect of doing so and running a game, boot them. If they don't want to play by your rules, let them run their own game or go play somewhere else.

I do strongly suggest nominating a sub dm to roll dice, quartermaster/scribe for the party, track initiative, maybe even handle minor monsters in combat. Another thing is to design encounters that require the entire party- perhaps 8 different statues need to be moved at the same time to unlock a dungeon door, or the ship needs 8 party members to sail. If you see idle hands, put something in them.

hymer
2016-04-19, 08:25 AM
My main problem is just running it with 8+ players... it just gets really tough. And the thing is that I've already turned down some of my friends as I can't imagine running 10+ players. We've got too many players, not enough DMs.

Cut down on players per session, then. Get organized, and see to it that there's a limit to the number of players, not in the campaign, but in a given session. Westmarches show you one way to do it.

Joe the Rat
2016-04-19, 08:38 AM
My experience with Massive Drop-in games is from the player side, but these are the tricks I've seen:

Character initiative tents & Summary cards: take some notecards, and write character names (AND player name) on them. Keep a stack for making monster versions. You sort them for initiative, then can either stack them up (on top = your turn), or run them across the top of a long DM screen (so people can see where they are in line).
You may want to have summary cards for each character: name, race, class(es), move AC, hit point max, passive perception, special senses / abilities, stat mods if you have room. If you want to be really clever, combine the two: initiative on the outside of the tent, character summary on the inside.

'Round the table' side initiative: When we hit 12 (!), we simply went to our median initiative roll, and went around the table clockwise.

Amorphous Blob of NPCs: if your party has regular NPCs, they are there for their special skills, carrying capacity, and ability to consume party resources, but are otherwise passive. A better solution is to avoid them altogether.

Side jobs and other disappearances: Missing players have their characters go do something else - scouting, making a beer run, double top secret mission, etc. The other options I've seen are "Vanishing Flu" (assumes wacky magic) and Many Worlds Hypothesis (each session is an alternate reality where the people present were responsible for success to this point... somehow).

Quick Builds: For drop-ins, particularly first-time D&Ders, using "factory settings" - the prescribed quick builds - is a good way to get someone going quickly. An even better option is to have a stack of pre-built characters - race, class, gear, spells if applicable - that your newbies can pick up to be ready to go - generic, but leave a little room for customization. You can also allow premades.
We found it helpful to have the old hands help the first-timers put characters together.

Player name or Character name Pick one to use, and stick with it. The first engages into the world, the second helps people get to know one another.

Some other thoughts:

- Write a paper, give the abstract: Have some details about the world available to peruse, but be able to deliver the key points for your game in 5 sentences: Fantasy Europe; Dragons and whatever else; your characters are here, doing this; this is what's happened so far.

- With the card-row or round table initiative trackers, people should know when their turn is, and plan accordingly. If they do not know what they want to do, get a quick decision, or ask if they want to defend (or set a reaction trigger).

- Roll attack and damage at the same time - and try to the players to do the same. You may just decide to use average damage for monsters/NPCs, unless dramatically relevant.

goto124
2016-04-19, 08:43 AM
I thought "open" meant "sandbox", and nearly commented on how much a mess it could become.

Does heavy railroading help to keep things going?

mikeejimbo
2016-04-19, 11:02 AM
It might be tricky, but awesome if you have someone you work well with to be a second DM. Not a sub-DM, but instead you split the group in two and have one go off elsewhere in the shop, then run two concurrent expeditions. Afterwards, possibly online, the two DMs synchronize the effects on the world.

Then you can get the groups together into one massive group on special occasions for truly epic stuff.

Thrudd
2016-04-19, 12:58 PM
I thought "open" meant "sandbox", and nearly commented on how much a mess it could become.

Does heavy railroading help to keep things going?

Railroading is never required. Just a clear focus for the game and the characters. Such as: characters are members of a treasure-hunting company or the adventurer's guild or something. Present opportunities to hunt for treasure. Or characters are part of a military or mercenary company, and get sent on missions with clear goals. The players don't need to be railroaded, just give them a clear goal and locations an situations in which to pursue those goals.

In a game with a rotating roster, this type of set up really makes the most sense.

This many players is not impossible to work with, by any means. It just requires an approach more like early D&D rather than later editions. Early Basic and AD&D assumed this number of players, in a lot of cases modules were written for 6-9 players.

Amphetryon
2016-04-19, 01:18 PM
How many Players do you expect to see consistently? I don't just mean the overall number of Players, but which folks tend to show up session after session? When I ran large + open games, the rotating roster was the biggest impediment to a consistent storyline of any sort.