Gauging interest- a campaign PLANNING log. (And a few related question)

[Kol Korran]

Hey all.
I've been mulling an idea for quite some time now. I've recently stopped GMing, and may have some time (In between RL obligations) for a project of mine, which I've been thinking of for quite some time...

As many GMs, in my gaming time I've toyed a lot with various ideas for a campaign along the years. Ideas that kept building, being refined, changed and more. The very general premise is that of a contained sandbox, but with great amount of detail to NPCs, locations, interactions, and plans of various groups and individuals. The idea is to have a setting for the specific campaign that is detailed enough, rich enough, to both allow great freedom (no prescripted scenes, failure is on the table, though many powers in the setting have plans and are proactive about them), but also enough depth, richness of experience, and structure to enable a much more fulfilling intimidation. (Instead of "Oh, you've decided to go west? Well, let's roll for random encounters. You meet an orc band." Something more on the lines of "Oh, you're going west? Hmmm... these are there hexes are the hunting grounds of the feared Gretchen the cunning manticore, the orcs are just establishing a small outpost a bit further away, and what do you know, this is just around the date that the cult of Ju is supposed to be exploring the demonic ruin...Let me get the maps and stats for those from the campaign folder...").

I haven't thought up all ideas, and it is an ambitious project. What I'm asking in this here thread- How interested might you be reading a log of campaign planning, not the actual game itself? (Though that may come as well, quite later on, if we get to it). I am quite fascinated by the art and skills of GMing, and thought this might interesting others. In part it would be me sharing my creativr process, in part it would be asking for advice, inspiration, ideas.

An impotent note: In "campaign planning" I do not mean to plan for anything that is supposed to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, or fit for publishing /selling/ most groups. I intend to plan for a game my group and me will most likely like. The themes, focus, and many of the decisions will depend on our play style and specific game preferences and aesthetics. I'm not making a gaming module, but a campaign setting for my group.

Those who may have read my logs know that I tend to invest quite a lot in the games, and that I think about design issues a lot. A fair deal of this log will discuss such matters. I do tend to write quite... exhaustively...

It will probably take a long time to do (RL takes precedence. Work, family, and a new baby ), yet though the going may be slow, I hope it can be useful, to practice thinking about campaign design.

So:
1. Would this interest you?
2. Where should this go? This particular forum? Homebrew? A lot of this will concern the design of a specific campaign, but a lot will also deal with more general design issues.
3. Any suggestion as to structure of the log? I'm thinking of linking it to a free wiki where I'll keep the specifics (mechanics), but in the log itself divide it into several major sections (campaign themes, core design, settlements, NPCs and factions, variant rules and so on), with possible links to threads that deal more thoroughly with specific issues. (Developing a certain faction, a certain specific campaign issue, a certain type of opponent, how to design a specific mystery and so on).

Any and all feedback is welcome.
Thanks,
Kol.

[Lycanthrope13]

I'm interested because I'm undertaking a similar project. I've been working on a sandbox world for a very, VERY long time. If I had to rate it right now, I'd say one continent is 60% complete, the other 2 are 10-15% and the archipelago is at about 30%. I'd love to compare ideas.

[Kol Korran]

I'm interested because I'm undertaking a similar project. I've been working on a sandbox world for a very, VERY long time. If I had to rate it right now, I'd say one continent is 60% complete, the other 2 are 10-15% and the archipelago is at about 30%. I'd love to compare ideas.
I intend on it being a "contained sandbox". I'm not doing the whole world, but rather a specific region (4-5 settlements, Some wild regions, NPCs andfactions, mysteries and locations, and plots and relations to tie them in), and focus on specific themes. But perhaps that can interest as well?

[Yora]

I think the process might even be much more interesting to many people than the result.

[Kol Korran]

I think the process might even be much more interesting to many people than the result.

That is one of the major reasons for this idea: I personally am very intrigued by creative processes, the choices made, and their reasoning, and the "shuffling/ alternating/ adjsuting/ reassessing" of ideas. A major part of this will be the creation process, not the end result, and it's all going to be pre-game. If I get to playing this, then that will be a separate journal, but this one is meant for "behind the scenes- WHY was this designed that way" and so on...

You may or may not be surprised Yora, but part of the inspiration for this, and part of the design approach I'm thinking of implementing, rose through a thread you started a while ago- Task based adventures (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303155-Task-based-adventures-and-published-adventure-modules&highlight=paizo+gygax+modules). I found it quite intriguing, and it got me to think... The big idea here is to make a setting, with locations, NPCs, and their plans, resoruces and so on, and then... just let the game take it where it will. But, I want it to be detailed enough, complex enough and rich enoguh to give a fulfilling experience. I won't be following the ideas in the thread to the letter- I do intend to insert more specific detail, but then again- it's not supposed to be a published module, but rather a more specific creation, made for the gamign style and preferences of my play group.

I would greatly appreciate discussion in the plan log or it's side threads. :smallsmile:

[wobner]

I would appreciate seeing the developement process, though I doubt I will be able to contribute. I am horrible at organization, so I would love to see how you manage this project, especially since I think it will change as you go.
I'd wager this is the best place unless a moderator says otherwise. it will probably get more traffic here at any rate.

I am particularly curious to see how you will organize the, for lack of a better word, 'tasks' as Yora put it. Depending on how indepth and complicated this gets, especially how much of a sandbox it is, you could conceivably have factions priorities changing, leadership changes, and all manner of dynamics that would, if not changing the factions involved in a given situation, then change the nature of their involvement. If you can conceive a way to easily correlate the task with the various factions and their current attitudes and objectives that would be awesome.

[THEChanger]

I know I would keep tabs on such a thread. Heck, if you ever get stuck along the way, it'd be a good place for you to get advice and feedback, if you were interested in such things.

[Honest Tiefling]

I have horrendous issues getting players to care about my settings, so seeing how other DMs make these decisions would be incredibly helpful. However, I would like to see the result and see how it does with players interacting with it.

[Final Hyena]

I have horrendous issues getting players to care about my settings, so seeing how other DMs make these decisions would be incredibly helpful. However, I would like to see the result and see how it does with players interacting with it.

Before you start going hard on getting your players to care about a setting you have to accept that some people like different things. Some people want to be thrown at a monster, roll dice and shout angrily ending in a triumphant victory.

To get players (who might care) to take interest there are multiple things to consider.

The slope
You know when you get in a pool and there is a baby shallow end and a deep end? You need that for your world. You need ways for your players to experience/learn without too much trouble, but also cater to those who want to dive into deep and complex threads. I like to create a piece of lore, and never repeat it to the players. People lie, forget and misunderstand. What really happened is likely not what the world knows. Create a rumour based on your true lore, if players want to look around for multiple pieces then they might be able to have a better guess at what really happened. This creates simple "gossip" level lore for the baby end, but a mystery for the divers at the deep end.
Accessibility helps get everyone involved.

Curiosity
If lore is interesting and perhaps a bit mysterious it draws players in to learn more. Now farmer John having an affair is likely not something the PCs will care about as they don't know John. But maybe the necromancer is curious about rumours of an anti necromancer movement picking up pace across the seas. Maybe the soldier is outraged on a new weapon/armour tax and demands to know why the change. Just possibly the rogue is curious about the tales of the local Criminal organisations actually being run by the guards.
Curiosity killed the cat, the dog and the whole damn town.

Relevance
Does the backdrop matter? Does knowing the events of the rise of the Plexus guild actually ever come into play? If pieces of lore actually assist players in making "better" choices then it is not just a curiosity but a useful tool to survive within the world. You probably want to ease this concept in by sharing a bit of blatant lore in a session that it helps, over time you can rely on lore randomly tossed around weeks or months ago. Do remember not to go too far with this. If solving an obtuse problem is only possible with perfect lore recollection and understanding then you're setting your players up to fail. It needs to help, but not be 100% necessary.
Power gamers like their tools.

Interaction
Do your players create the setting? I don't mean did they make the world, I mean do their PCs affect the world in a way that creates lore about them/their exploits. Having rumours spread out (don't forget people lie, forget and misunderstand) about the party makes them feel a part of the setting, it makes them feel like they can mold the world and that they have an affect on it.
As a part of the setting PCs are more likely to care about the rest of it.

But back OT, the whole idea is interesting. Most DMs like to see how others do it, after all it's important to try new positions techniques perspectives campaigns, as we learn from the mistakes just as much as the successes.

[ApocalypseSquid]

This I would certainly follow, as a fellow GM and advocate of sandbox GMing.

[Kol Korran]

Seems there is an interest. I will try to start such a thread/ project in the next few weeks hopefully, RL permitting. As to the players buying into this, I will address that as well, though I don't intend to cater for all tastes, all desires. I will discuss various gaming concept,like The 8 Aesthetics of Play, and how they affect the process...

To answer a few things more specifically:


I am particularly curious to see how you will organize the, for lack of a better word, 'tasks' as Yora put it. Depending on how indepth and complicated this gets, especially how much of a sandbox it is, you could conceivably have factions priorities changing, leadership changes, and all manner of dynamics that would, if not changing the factions involved in a given situation, then change the nature of their involvement. If you can conceive a way to easily correlate the task with the various factions and their current attitudes and objectives that would be awesome.

I'm not sure if "factions" would be the word, but "groups" certainly will. Basically I plan to have two kinds of "proactive world changers": Specific key NPCs, and specific groups. I intend to give them goals, plans, and resources to do so, with some "what ifs" according to changes I think are likely to occur. Sure, I can't expect everything, but I'm not trying to. I'll be trying to get an idea of what they want, what they are capable of, and who they are, detailed enough, complex enough, yet also with plenty of room to adjust. Then, once the players mess things up (As they certainly will), I'll have a sound enough base to make decisions. The various interactions can be.. .tricky, but that will be dealt with in the design thread itself


I know I would keep tabs on such a thread. Heck, if you ever get stuck along the way, it'd be a good place for you to get advice and feedback, if you were interested in such things.

Yeah, I will most likely use ideas and advice from the forum (It sure helped on previous projects!), yet quite a lot of it will be according to my groups, and my own, preferences...


---------------------------------

Ok, I'll try to get this up and running, after some initial structure, when the time permits. Hopefully soon. Thanks all! :smallsmile: