View Full Version : Countercharm... eh?
Dr. Cliché
2016-04-25, 08:34 AM
Could someone explain the point of Countercharm to me?
Looking at the name (and the description, for that matter), I'd have thought the purpose would be to disrupt ongoing charm effects. As in, if someone charms the party fighter, I could then use Countercharm to end that effect.
Instead, I apparently have to pre-empt someone using charm on my party. So, I use my action to play countercharm (assuming I'm even first) and then really hope the person/creature still uses a charm?
BiPolar
2016-04-25, 08:40 AM
Could someone explain the point of Countercharm to me?
Looking at the name (and the description, for that matter), I'd have thought the purpose would be to disrupt ongoing charm effects. As in, if someone charms the party fighter, I could then use Countercharm to end that effect.
Instead, I apparently have to pre-empt someone using charm on my party. So, I use my action to play countercharm (assuming I'm even first) and then really hope the person/creature still uses a charm?
Countercharm still gives advantage on saving throws against charm/frightened creatures within 30' that can hear you to end their condition. This goes for your entire party (if they're in range and can hear) who may be charmed or frightened and you'd really like them back in the fight :).
Dr. Cliché
2016-04-25, 08:45 AM
Countercharm still gives advantage on saving throws against charm/frightened creatures within 30' that can hear you to end their condition.
Yeah, but that only works if the spell itself allows a save to end its effect prematurely. Most don't. Or, if they do, you're not going to trigger the requisite conditions by playing music.
BiPolar
2016-04-25, 08:58 AM
Yeah, but that only works if the spell itself allows a save to end its effect prematurely. Most don't. Or, if they do, you're not going to trigger the requisite conditions by playing music.
What spells don't provide a save opportunity to end the condition/spell? Fear does, Phantasmal killer does, Weird does, Wraithful Smite does, compulsion does, crown of madness does, dominate does, Otto's Irresistable Dance does . Exceptions seems to be Eyebite, Enthrall, Geas, Modify Memory, but if you can get out of line of site, that removes the condition.
And many of the other Charm spells are ended if you take damage, so just hurting your friends would end those.
What requisite conditions are you talking about? Having to be within 30' or hear you? That's up to you to fix. If silence has been cast, too, then you're out of luck. But they are quite likely to hear you and getting in range is your job.
Dr. Cliché
2016-04-25, 11:43 AM
What spells don't provide a save opportunity to end the condition/spell?
Well, off the top of my head:
Charm Person - no save.
Vampire Charm ability - no save unless the vampire attacks the charmed guy.
What spells don't provide a save opportunity to end the condition/spell? Fear does
Given that the affected individual only gets to save when he's out of sight of whatever's causing Fear, you'll have to go and catch him first. :smalltongue:
compulsion
Compulsion isn't a Charm effect.
And many of the other Charm spells are ended if you take damage, so just hurting your friends would end those.
Really? Most of the ones I've seen seem to only end if the charmer (or one of his allies) hurts the charmed creature.
What requisite conditions are you talking about? Having to be within 30' or hear you?
No, I meant the requisite of Dominate Person - i.e. taking damage. Since your using your action to play isn't damaging them, wouldn't it be better to hurt them and hope they make the save, rather than hoping someone else damages them?
I'll admit it's not quite as useless as I first thought, but it still seems absurdly situational. Especially when you're sacrificing your own action to use it.
BiPolar
2016-04-25, 12:00 PM
Well, off the top of my head:
Charm Person - no save.
Vampire Charm ability - no save unless the vampire attacks the charmed guy.
Charm Person gets broken if the caster has something harmful done to it - which anyone not charmed (including you) can do to it. Problem solved. Vampire Charm is very specific and has limitations and workarounds (if charmed individual is harmed, they can make a save.)
Given that the affected individual only gets to save when he's out of sight of whatever's causing Fear, you'll have to go and catch him first. :smalltongue:
Yes, this is an example where the target will run away, but if they can get out of line of sight then they can save. Also, this is unlike the vast majority of the spells as I said above.
Really? Most of the ones I've seen seem to only end if the charmer (or one of his allies) hurts the charmed creature.
[quote=Dr.Cliché]
No, I meant the requisite of Dominate Person - i.e. taking damage. Since your using your action to play isn't damaging them, wouldn't it be better to hurt them and hope they make the save, rather than hoping someone else damages them?
Yes, in that case attacking is the better option, but there are cases where it isn't - and when giving advantage on a save is a big deal.
I'll admit it's not quite as useless as I first thought, but it still seems absurdly situational. Especially when you're sacrificing your own action to use it.
It is very situational, but so are many of the abilities at certain levels. Hell, Paladins get a free pass on diseases, and except for contagion, there's not much out there that gives a disease.
The point is, it's not that bad, it has it's uses, but it's not an end-all, be-all ability. But it is a nice option to have if your whole party just got charmed/frightened except for you and potentially you can help bring everyone back into the fight.
Dr. Cliché
2016-04-25, 12:02 PM
Charm Person gets broken if the caster has something harmful done to it - which anyone not charmed (including you) can do to it. Problem solved. Vampire Charm is very specific and has limitations and workarounds (if charmed individual is harmed, they can make a save.)
So . . . no need for Countercharm then?
It is very situational, but so are many of the abilities at certain levels. Hell, Paladins get a free pass on diseases, and except for contagion, there's not much out there that gives a disease.
The point is, it's not that bad, it has it's uses, but it's not an end-all, be-all ability. But it is a nice option to have if your whole party just got charmed/frightened except for you and potentially you can help bring everyone back into the fight.
Fair enough.
Ashrym
2016-04-25, 03:40 PM
It's situational because it's gained at the same level as the subclass abilities. A reasonable situational ability makes much more sense as a minor ability when it comes at the same level as major abilities.
I would note, however, that the benefit ends at the end of the bard's next turn, so it's still up briefly if the bard does take another action.
I would also note that there is no reason the ability might not be up the vast majority of the time. It requires actions but not concentration or movement. A bard who isn't trying to be stealthy can sing to keep up bravery for long periods of time and it would be a choice not to have the ability going instead of activating it. That rules for the mechanics in the ability support the traveling minstrel singing and playing in his or travels to keep up morale.
Words of power is an alternative to the minstrel flavour of the ability.
BiPolar
2016-04-25, 03:44 PM
It's situational because it's gained at the same level as the subclass abilities. A reasonable situational ability makes much more sense as a minor ability when it comes at the same level as major abilities.
I would note, however, that the benefit ends at the end of the bard's next turn, so it's still up briefly if the bard does take another action.
I would also note that there is no reason the ability might not be up the vast majority of the time. It requires actions but not concentration or movement. A bard who isn't trying to be stealthy can sing to keep up bravery for long periods of time and it would be a choice not to have the ability going instead of activating it. That rules for the mechanics in the ability support the traveling minstrel singing and playing in his or travels to keep up morale.
Words of power is an alternative to the minstrel flavour of the ability.
Unfortunately, it does take up your Action in order to play the countercharm. You'd give up one round, but you get the benefits for two. Still means for one round, you're doing nothing by helping those within 30' gain advantage on their save.
krugaan
2016-04-25, 03:55 PM
the big outlier here is the dragon fear aura. Once you save, you're immune for 24 hours, and the countercharm has a big area of effect.
Ashrym
2016-04-25, 03:59 PM
Unfortunately, it does take up your Action in order to play the countercharm. You'd give up one round, but you get the benefits for two. Still means for one round, you're doing nothing by helping those within 30' gain advantage on their save.
It does. Apply that to playing normally minstrel style. What happens is the ability is already up at the cost of stealth in the first round because the bard was singing to keep up morale in the creepy ruins since entering.
So in the first round, the bard assesses things and drops the ability in order to fight or cast a spell. Or the bard maintains the ability for those situations in which it's desirable to make use of it. That approach removes the uncertainty of predicting when it's needed and follows rules just fine.
The other note where the ability lasts through and action is relevant to an action that might end the encounter while maintaining the protection.
dnd2016
2018-03-07, 10:28 PM
Unfortunately, it does take up your Action in order to play the countercharm. You'd give up one round, but you get the benefits for two. Still means for one round, you're doing nothing by helping those within 30' gain advantage on their save.
Does it take 2 rounds to do the counter charm or the effects last for 2 rounds?
As an action, you can start a performance that lasts until the end of your next turn. During that time, you and any friendly creatures within 30 feet of you have advantage on saving throws against being frightened or charmed
JackPhoenix
2018-03-08, 05:27 AM
Does it take 2 rounds to do the counter charm or the effects last for 2 rounds?
As an action, you can start a performance that lasts until the end of your next turn. During that time, you and any friendly creatures within 30 feet of you have advantage on saving throws against being frightened or charmed
Apparently, it takes almost 2 years.
Specter
2018-03-08, 12:03 PM
Any caster ability that comes at the same time as you get a new spell level (3, 5, 7, etc.) is not meant to be great, just decent.
sithlordnergal
2018-03-08, 12:40 PM
Charm Person gets broken if the caster has something harmful done to it - which anyone not charmed (including you) can do to it. Problem solved. Vampire Charm is very specific and has limitations and workarounds (if charmed individual is harmed, they can make a save.)
You might want to re-read Charm Person. It specifically states that the caster, and the caster's allies have to harm the charmed creature to break the charm.
"You attempt to charm a humanoid you can see within range. It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails it is charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions do something harmful to it."
Meaning if someone is your enemy, and they harm the charmed person, it will not break the charm. Where as if you cast charm person, then your ally fighter smacks him, the charm will break.
djreynolds
2018-03-08, 07:00 PM
Protection from evil lasts 10 minutes, counter charm can be continually used. And protection from evil is only useful for 1 player at a time.
If I was trying to save spell slots for an encounter, its easier to spam counter charm while you are navigating the dungeon and then cast heroism or PFEG when you think its time.
And 30ft is pretty good, whereas, as 7th devotion paladins ability is still only 10ft protection.
Our bard used counter charm a lot in CoS, it saved us constantly casting protection from evil while in a certain evil castle.
Kenny Snoggins
2018-03-09, 02:54 PM
Could someone explain the point of Countercharm to me?
Looking at the name (and the description, for that matter), I'd have thought the purpose would be to disrupt ongoing charm effects. As in, if someone charms the party fighter, I could then use Countercharm to end that effect.
Instead, I apparently have to pre-empt someone using charm on my party. So, I use my action to play countercharm (assuming I'm even first) and then really hope the person/creature still uses a charm?
I've used countercharm in the last 2 sessions, and I believe in the one before that.
Ghosts style of combat is to phase in and out of walls, so if you have an idea that the area is haunted and you aren't stealthing, the Bard should be countercharming to prevent undead 'frighten' abilities, which can be devastating. Giving the entire party advantage against one of the major undead combat strengths was useful, and I didn't feel like I was wasting my action by countercharming. Plus, it feels very thematic, trying to keep the party's courage together instead of randomly cantripping a ghost.
Later we were in an area that from the flavor text was exerting a painful mental effect on the party. Countercharm. And in the next room there was an abolyth that grabbed our sorcerer. I would have countercharmed there, as well, but he was dragged into the water and so the sorc couldn't hear me well enough.
Overall I find it quite useful. It's got immediate application against most mid-level undead and dragons. One is the eponymous monster of the game, and the other is probably the most abundant single enemy type you'll face in your adventuring career.
Slayn82
2018-03-09, 03:41 PM
My old lore bard used countercharm quite a few times, and every time it had a pretty good impact on the flow of the encounter. It helped against Faeries, Undead, Mystics. When you can use bonus action to give Bardic Inspiration dice to a low Wis ally, and then add advantage to his save, it works like a charm. And unlike a concentration spell, you can drop it to cast another critical thing and restart later.
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.