Paladin & Warlock sinergy

[Smorgonoffz]

I'm going to create a character for Al which will be a mix of warlock/Paladin, the stats aren't a problem(standard arrayunless point buy is better) race(variant human for the feat/half elf) neither.
The character should be a paladin/bladelock so to maximize the sinergy:

1) Starting class: should it be Paladin or warlock (i'm leaning towards paladin)

2) at what paladin level should i multiclass into warlock(Archfey)

[AmbientRaven]

What is your reason for dipping warlock?

[Spacehamster]

I'm going to create a character for Al which will be a mix of warlock/Paladin, the stats aren't a problem(standard arrayunless point buy is better) race(variant human for the feat/half elf) neither.
The character should be a paladin/bladelock so to maximize the sinergy:

1) Starting class: should it be Paladin or warlock (i'm leaning towards paladin)

2) at what paladin level should i multiclass into warlock(Archfey)

1: paladin for heavy armor i.m.o

2: 6 for CHA to saves or 7 for lvl 7 oath feature. :)

[MaxWilson]

I'm going to create a character for Al which will be a mix of warlock/Paladin, the stats aren't a problem(standard arrayunless point buy is better) race(variant human for the feat/half elf) neither.
The character should be a paladin/bladelock so to maximize the sinergy:

1) Starting class: should it be Paladin or warlock (i'm leaning towards paladin)

2) at what paladin level should i multiclass into warlock(Archfey)

If it were me I'd probably go Paladin 2 (for the heavy armor potential and Wrathful/Thunderous Smite), Warlock 1-5 (for Thirsting Blade/etc.), then whatever, hopefully at least Paladin 6 eventually for Aura of Protection and Find Steed. (Once you get Extra Attack on the Paladin you can use your next Warlock level to swap out that invocation for something else.)

[Gtdead]

Well, the way I see it, there are only 2 reasons to dip Warlock as a Paladin. First is CHA shillelagh. Second is getting back smites in a short rest.
Best level to dip warlock is 6 imo, unless you are OotA who should probably get lvl 7 too.

V human for PAM.
6 lvls of Paladin for the second attack and save aura.
Pump CHA.
After CHA 20 you can get literally whatever you want. Your saves will be amazing so you don't really have to get warcasters and resilient cons etc. Get something fun.

[RulesJD]

Bladelock is pointless on an AL Paladin/Warlock because minimum Paladin level is 6, which already grants you extra attack.

Pact of the Tome is significantly better.

[Daishain]

Bladelock is pointless on an AL Paladin/Warlock because minimum Paladin level is 6, which already grants you extra attack.

Depends on whether the DM rules the prereqs for Lifedrinker to be based on Character or class level. If the former, Pal 11/War 3 with Blade pact nets you a bonus of both 1d8 radiant and CHA Necrotic damage on every weapon hit. Though you might want to ask if you can refluff Lifedrinker to use a different damage type. Radiant & necrotic is some ways an even weirder combo than fire and frost. The other benefits, such as your enemies never being able to truly disarm you, are nothing to sneer at either.

Note that I'm not disagreeing with your assessment of pact of the tome, I find it excellent as well. But few paladins are the bookish type.

[BiPolar]

As with all Paladin/Warlock builds, I love to know what the backstory is that is allowing a Paladin of Deity X to make a deal with an Archfey?

[RulesJD]

Depends on whether the DM rules the prereqs for Lifedrinker to be based on Character or class level. If the former, Pal 11/War 3 with Blade pact nets you a bonus of both 1d8 radiant and CHA Necrotic damage on every weapon hit. Though you might want to ask if you can refluff Lifedrinker to use a different damage type. Radiant & necrotic is some ways an even weirder combo than fire and frost. The other benefits, such as your enemies never being able to truly disarm you, are nothing to sneer at either.

Note that I'm not disagreeing with your assessment of pact of the tome, I find it excellent as well. But few paladins are the bookish type.

That's been hard errata'd, it absolutely is dependent on Warlock levels.

[Daishain]

As with all Paladin/Warlock builds, I love to what is the backstory that is allowing a Paladin of Deity X to make a deal with another power?
A couple of things to remember.
-Paladins are no longer dependent on gods, it is their cause and their oath that is paramount. Many paladins do dedicate themselves to a specific deity, but not all.
-Not all Warlocks enter into a deal. Some have the pact forced on them, others learn to siphon power without the source's knowledge
-not all deities are going to be opposed to their paladins working with the potential pact givers
-sometimes serving the cause requires sacrifice.

For instance, one of the simplest and most likely scenarios is an ancients paladin of Melitele forming a warlock pact with an archfey who is also in the goddess' service.

Another might be a vengeance paladin that formed a warlock pact with a devil because it was necessary to pursue the demons he considers to be the greater evil.

and then a paladin of any variety might stumble on a slumbering eldritch being. Had brief contact with its mind and went temporarily insane. After recovering, the paladin finds he can access new abilities.


That's been hard errata'd, it absolutely is dependent on Warlock levels.
Huh, good to know. I think I'll ignore that ruling myself, I prefer keeping options as close to equally viable as I can.

[Spacehamster]

As with all Paladin/Warlock builds, I love to know what the backstory is that is allowing a Paladin of Deity X to make a deal with an Archfey?

Paladins do not use dieties anymore to fuel their power as far as I know. :)

[BiPolar]

Paladins do not use dieties anymore to fuel their power as far as I know. :)

No, but if one has taken an Oath to a certain deity and then gone and made a deal with an archfey that certain deity may take umbrage and/or consider that oath broken.

[Foxhound438]

a) don't take blade pact. Get extra attack from paladin, then either get more cantrips from book or have an invisible scout from chain. Being able to summon a weapon using your action probably won't have much application, especially in AL.

b) go 6, 7, or 11 in paladin before classing out. Paladin features are leagues better for a melee character than warlock features are.

[Foxhound438]

Huh, good to know. I think I'll ignore that ruling myself, I prefer keeping options as close to equally viable as I can.

Ah, good, I'm sure you don't see a ton of warlock 3/ fighter 11+ in your games

[Daishain]

No, but if one has taken an Oath to a certain deity and then gone and made a deal with an archfey that certain deity may take umbrage and/or consider that oath broken.
That wouldn't apply to all paladins, and unless the deity in question is pissed off enough to take action, the paladin in question doesn't suffer for it.

Unless an action violates the oath itself, the paladin cannot fall because of it. At present, none of the oaths have a "thou shalt not collude with powers other than X deity" clause. If the player modifies an oath such that it does depend on service to a deity, and then makes a pact, that might be a different issue.

[RulesJD]

Actually, there is one situation where you would want to go Bladelock for a Paladin in AL.

Curse of Strahd, but only if you are going for a particular weapon based playstyle.

There are extremely few magical weapons in AL CoS, especially of a certain couple kinds of variety. There are, however, a metric ton of enemies in CoS that have resistance to non-magical weapons. Blacklock lets you ignore that fact right from the get go, and so might actually be worth it.

[Ruslan]

Depends on whether the DM rules the prereqs for Lifedrinker to be based on Character or class level.Official errata says class level. And since it's an AL game, can't contradict RAW...

[Foxhound438]

(snip)

Ah, I hadn't played it.

Casting magic weapon gets you around that resistance as well, but a) concentration can be hard, and b) spell slots can be hard.

Thus perhaps it is worth, but personally I'd go the magic weap route.

[MaxWilson]

As with all Paladin/Warlock builds, I love to know what the backstory is that is allowing a Paladin of Deity X to make a deal with an Archfey?

You don't have to be a Paladin of Deity X. The PHB is explicit about this. You can just be a Paladin.

Sir Lancelot wasn't a Paladin of St. Benedict or St. Cuthbert or anyone else. He was just a paladin, or in D&D terms a Paladin. This whole Paladins-worship-gods thing is newfangled and thankfully optional too.

[KorvinStarmast]

@Bipolar
Paladin of the Ancients and Warlock/Archfey fits together very nicely. The trick is to decide on a pact. If blade is what you are looking for, it should work. The benefit for using that pact doesn't come at level 1.

This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.
That is at class level 3. If you started with a Paladin level, then this nice feature arrives at level 4 or 5, depending on how soon you MC and why.

Surviving that first few levels as pure warlock is about teamwork, since your AC won't allow you to be a front row fighter much.

[Submortimer]

@Bipolar
Paladin of the Ancients and Warlock/Archfey fits together very nicely. The trick is to decide on a pact. If blade is what you are looking for, it should work. The benefit for using that pact doesn't come at level 1.

So much this. I played an Ancients pal 5/Archfey Warlock 3, used a quarterstaff and shield (PAM shenanigans, reflavored the quarterstaff as a wooden sword) and used Tome to get Shillelagh to become a single stat melee machine. Not to mention Druidcraft and Thornwhip. really, really excellent build.

[tieren]

When to MC depends a lot on why you are doing it.

I am building a Pal 8/war 12. I intend to use eldritch blast alot, except when I want to charge up on my mount (I am a small race) and nova something with some smites. I agree starting Pal is the best to get the heavy armor, but I don't want to wait until character level 8 to get the eldritch blast so I am going to MC sooner.

I intend to go Pal 2, then warlock 3, then pal 8, then straight to warlock 12.

I am also going tome for shillelagh to stop the MAD.

My take is a caster with heavy armor and melee abilities when needed.

It would be easy to flip the build to pal 12/war 8 to get Improved Divine Smite, and play more as a regular melee guy who has magic utility when needed (or just short rest recharging smites). If that were the case staying straight pal until 7 would make more sense.

on the CoS magic weapon issue, shillelagh also solves that problem without a slot.

[RulesJD]

*snip*
on the CoS magic weapon issue, shillelagh also solves that problem without a slot.

Not if you want to use particular weapon types (Greatswords, Polearms), especially weapon types that are extremely difficult to find magical variations.

[tieren]

Not if you want to use particular weapon types (Greatswords, Polearms), especially weapon types that are extremely difficult to find magical variations.

true, but if the problem you were trying to solve is "there aren't many magic weapons in AL and lots of creatures are immune to non-magic weapons in CoS" it does.

[Arial Black]

First, two levels of paladin (for short rest Smites).

Then three levels of warlock (for the pact blade, armour of agathys, hex, various invocations).

Then either two more levels of warlock OR three more levels of paladin (for Extra Attack).

Then decide if you want to be mainly paladin, mainly warlock, or about even in each.

[RulesJD]

true, but if the problem you were trying to solve is "there aren't many magic weapons in AL and lots of creatures are immune to non-magic weapons in CoS" it does.

It would help if you actually read the post:

"Actually, there is one situation where you would want to go Bladelock for a Paladin in AL.

Curse of Strahd, but only if you are going for a particular weapon based playstyle."

The Shillelagh trick is well known (and frankly one of the top reasons to go Tome along with Guidance), but for Paladin/Warlocks that want to go 2h weapon, there is still an extremely narrow niche for going Bladelock in CoS. This is especially true if you aren't going the Oath that grants a magical weapon as the Channel Divinity.

With that said, this is like the 0.1% circumstance that proves the rule. Especially with the SCAG cantrips, Tomelock all day, every day. Plus you get Find Familiar, etc.

[MrStabby]

As with all Paladin/Warlock builds, I love to know what the backstory is that is allowing a Paladin of Deity X to make a deal with an Archfey?

Does it have to be a deal with an archfey? If they worship a god, could the god not also be the source of the warlock powers? Likewise could they archfey patron not be the source of the paladin powers? You have a class with some combat and some magic ability and on leveling up the magic ability develops - why must the background for this development be different to the background that would develop martial prowess or whatever?

[Xetheral]

No, but if one has taken an Oath to a certain deity and then gone and made a deal with an archfey that certain deity may take umbrage and/or consider that oath broken.

As I read them, none of the Oaths in the book are made to anyone. They're made to upholding various philosophical ideals. Also, even if you do want to interpret Paladins as having a divine patron then, as the previous poster pointed out, there is no reason (especially in the case of Oath of the Ancients and Archfey) that the divine patron and the eldritch patron can't be one in the same.

[Giant2005]

It really depends on your rolls and what feats you might want.
In an ideal world, the best progression would be Paladin until 6, 3 levels of Warlock, and then 6 more levels of Paladin (the last 5 levels are probably best spent on Bard or Sorc). That progression would only leave you one ASI until level 11 however, so it requires fantastic rolls and a lack of desire for feats. If you need ASIs/feats, then you will want to take a 4th level of Warlock straight after the 3rd.

[Fighting_Ferret]

If your paladin patron were the same as the warlock's patron, then there would be no need to multi-class. Why would the patron grants you divine power on one side and arcane on the other?

A paladin has their holy quest to guide them and warlocks have a desire for power.

"The most important aspect of a paladin character is
the nature of his or her holy quest."

"Warlocks are driven by an insatiable need for knowledge
and power, which compels them into their pacts and
shapes their lives."

Those two things are not in synergy with each other.

[Daishain]

If your paladin patron were the same as the warlock's patron, then there would be no need to multi-class. Why would the patron grants you divine power on one side and arcane on the other?

A paladin has their holy quest to guide them and warlocks have a desire for power.

"The most important aspect of a paladin character is
the nature of his or her holy quest."

"Warlocks are driven by an insatiable need for knowledge
and power, which compels them into their pacts and
shapes their lives."

Those two things are not in synergy with each other.
You're mixing fluff up with game mechanics. The descriptions given for each class are merely generalizations, characters that do not multiclass at all are likely but not guaranteed to fall close to the description for their class. Characters that do multiclass are likely to have some aspects of, but be different than any of the individual class descriptions.

What's more, classes do not actually exist in the game world. They're just a convenient package for us to work with in setting up characters. Our hypothetical character with a single patron serving up both divine and arcane power is quite reasonable. That knowledge and ability mix is what the patron was willing to give and/or what the character desired.

[Fighting_Ferret]

Without that fluff... you only have numbers... maybe that's your idea of fun, but not mine. This is the 5e D&D thread if I recall correctly and 5e has certain fluff... ignoring it is fine if that is your thing, but there are systems that truly have no class system, and this isn't one of them.'

Numerically they have great synergy... Mechanically, sure you can make something work... Thematically...good luck.

[smcmike]

If your paladin patron were the same as the warlock's patron, then there would be no need to multi-class. Why would the patron grants you divine power on one side and arcane on the other?

A paladin has their holy quest to guide them and warlocks have a desire for power.

"The most important aspect of a paladin character is
the nature of his or her holy quest."

"Warlocks are driven by an insatiable need for knowledge
and power, which compels them into their pacts and
shapes their lives."

Those two things are not in synergy with each other.

Man, you must be joking. This is one of the richest veins of fluff offered in the PHB, and it's super fun to combine them!

Oath of Vengeance, particularly, can easily lead you to making pacts that you'd rather not. Your character has sworn Vengeance, even if it means making a literal deal with the devil. That is so much fun!

Ancients/Fey is similarly easy, though a bit less fun to me.

Even devotion can have every reason in the world to seek power wherever he can find it. Half the point of playing a paladin is testing your oath, and what better way than allegiance to some other force?

[Daishain]

Without that fluff... you only have numbers... maybe that's your idea of fun, but not mine. This is the 5e D&D thread if I recall correctly and 5e has certain fluff... ignoring it is fine if that is your thing, but there are systems that truly have no class system, and this isn't one of them.'

Numerically they have great synergy... Mechanically, sure you can make something work... Thematically...good luck.
I am not at all suggesting that one gets rid of fluff, far from it. I am however saying that the fluff given by the book for a specific mechanic is not an inviolate part of that mechanic. Whether you create a character and then use the mechanical abilities on hand to match the concept as best as possible, or vice versa, you have a heck of a lot more flexibility than you suggested.

I created a ancients paladin/archfey warlock combo myself recently. He's a paladin that takes his oaths to defend all life particularly seriously. He fell in battle while defending a fey grove. The lady of the grove tended his wounds and gave him a gift out of gratitude, enabling him to access abilities he could not before. (There's more to it, but the details are not important here)

That's it, that's all it took. It took me maybe 30 seconds to come up the basic idea. It really is not hard to come up with thematic reasons for most mechanical concepts.

[Fighting_Ferret]

Allegiance to some other force is a conflict with your oath... Sure it is a good roleplay scenario... but most people just take their "Dip" of warlock and nothing else comes from it... are you truly a paladin? or a warlock? There should be some drama there...

Making a deal with a devil/demon... where is the choosing the greater evil there... that's about as evil as it gets... given that those being are crated from evil.

I'm glad to see that all the fey patrons are just really nice friendly beings, instead of some of the darker ones mentioned in the sword coast guide, or even some of the neutral ones. Are you going to take your paladin beyond 2 or 3 levels of warlock, or just take the best parts of the dip? The reasoning sounds okay, but imagine the fun you could have if your DM made you actually choose between your oath or your fey patron... sacraficing one power for the other... now that's drama. There is also good drama in a paladin that takes an oath to protect ALL life, that actually takes life to protect others... now that doens't need warlock levels for drama... that is enough material right there.

[smcmike]

Allegiance to some other force is a conflict with your oath... Sure it is a good roleplay scenario... but most people just take their "Dip" of warlock and nothing else comes from it... are you truly a paladin? or a warlock? There should be some drama there...

You are a paladin who made a pact with some inhuman power in support of your goals. Your "most people" seems like a straw man.



Making a deal with a devil/demon... where is the choosing the greater evil there... that's about as evil as it gets... given that those being are crated from evil.


The vengeance oath does not give guidance on how you are supposed to determine what the greater evil is. In fact, it seems to suggest that the paladin's "sworn foes" are the greatest evil, at least from his perspective, and explicitly states that he should defeat them "by any means necessary," disregarding his moral qualms. You could make an argument that his oath obligates him to make a pact with a devil if it allows him to pursue his goal. I mean, the whole concept of the oath is a metaphorical deal with the devil.



I'm glad to see that all the fey patrons are just really nice friendly beings, instead of some of the darker ones mentioned in the sword coast guide, or even some of the neutral ones. Are you going to take your paladin beyond 2 or 3 levels of warlock, or just take the best parts of the dip? The reasoning sounds okay, but imagine the fun you could have if your DM made you actually choose between your oath or your fey patron... sacraficing one power for the other... now that's drama. There is also good drama in a paladin that takes an oath to protect ALL life, that actually takes life to protect others... now that doens't need warlock levels for drama... that is enough material right there.

I agree that it could be fun for the DM to create real tension between your oath and your pact. It sounds like you're suggesting it would be fun for them to literally just make you choose between classes. That does not sound fun.

[tieren]

Any combination of oaths and pacts can be easily backstoried, and to whatever level of depth the player decides.

maybe it is a 2 level dip, the PC need a boost to achieve some other goal and has been fighting against the patron to prevent falling further under his thrall.

Maybe you're a devotion paladin going around smiting evil, and there is also a fiend who enjoys tormenting the evil souls of the smitten. If the paladin finds some evil he is not quite up to handling he could make a pact with the fiend to keep feeding him evil fallen foes for a bit of a boost, the pact meets both their needs. For drama the DM can have the fiend continually try to tempt the pally to the dark side or something and the pally fights to just stick to smiting evil.

Not all pacts are sell your soul pacts, the terms can vary, and there is room in there to accommodate nearly any concept.

[Fighting_Ferret]

Stawman is a good reply to hide behind... making me waste time searching for active examples. You are active on these forums... please don't act like you have somehow missed all the the multi-class dip threads for pali-locks. It's even a running gag that no one plays a full warlock because the class is so front loaded.

Except the paladin fluff states that paladins are basically forces for good... good does not deal with ultimate evil. I hate that they couldn't find a better term than vengeance for that oath... they still want justice... they are just more of a vigilante... they will go outside of the law to do so... this is your Batman paladin group, and they are chaotic good.

You know the thing about freedom of choice is that sometimes choices have consequences... if the player chose to have these classes together... there should be some ongoing conflict. While they might be able to use them together for some time... the fact that as they get more powerful and ignore the other class/patron/calling/whatever you want it to be... making the two align perfectly is both lazy and impractical. One option has to win in the end. Your holy calling/oath, or your duty to your warlock patron?

[smcmike]

Stawman is a good reply to hide behind... making me waste time searching for active examples. You are active on these forums... please don't act like you have somehow missed all the the multi-class dip threads for pali-locks. It's even a running gag that no one plays a full warlock because the class is so front loaded.


People discuss the mechanics of playing the two classes here. They don't discuss how the handle the fluff as much. Discussing the mechanics does not mean that they are ignoring the fluff. Dipping two levels of warlock does not mean ignoring the fluff. That's my point. I don't mean to send you searching for examples.



Except the paladin fluff states that paladins are basically forces for good... good does not deal with ultimate evil. I hate that they couldn't find a better term than vengeance for that oath... they still want justice... they are just more of a vigilante... they will go outside of the law to do so... this is your Batman paladin group, and they are chaotic good.


Or maybe he's Punisher. They don't just go outside the law, they swear to ignore their own moral qualms in the pursuit of justice. I'm not saying there isn't room for your chaotic good Batman, but the class explicitly give room for a darker interpretation.



You know the thing about freedom of choice is that sometimes choices have consequences... if the player chose to have these classes together... there should be some ongoing conflict. While they might be able to use them together for some time... the fact that as they get more powerful and ignore the other class/patron/calling/whatever you want it to be... making the two align perfectly is both lazy and impractical. One option has to win in the end. Your holy calling/oath, or your duty to your warlock patron?

So they get to multiclass for a while, and then what, a DM-forced rebuild?

[MaxWilson]

So they get to multiclass for a while, and then what, a DM-forced rebuild?

At least for me, one of the real attractions of the warlock-2 dip is that you don't have any dependencies on your patron. At level 3 you get your "Pact Boon" for good service, which implies that your patron could take it away if you don't cooperate... but at levels 1-2 you are just getting Eldritch Invocations, which are explicitly knowledge, and spell slots, which are ill-defined.

So Cthulock-2 is my goto for warlocks who just want to steal some magical secrets from a sleeping Old One and then go back to being necromancers or whatever. It hurts your spell progression mechanically but it doesn't obligate you in any way (that you know of). It still takes a certain kind of PC personality to be okay with that, but it's not nearly as demanding from an RP perspective as being a cleric or a full Fiendlock.

[Democratus]

Solomon Kane could easily be seen as a Warlock/Paladin.

His soul is claimed by hell (pact), but he has decided to fight for Good. And perhaps along the way his soul will be saved (paladin).

[Fighting_Ferret]

The problem is the fluff vs mechanics... the player is highly motivated to build mechanically, but to fluff those mechanics in order to satisfy a DM. The synergy of their warlock patron just so happens to be completely in-line with that of their god/oath. A patron grants power for service... it doesn't have to necessarily be evil, but they expect their payment for that power. If that payment is revoked then so to is the power. An oath taken, broken and un-atoned for is already covered in the PHB:

"If a paladin willfully violates his or her oath and shows no
sign of repentance, the consequences can be more serious.
At the DM's discretion, an impenitent paladin might be
forced to abandon this class and adopt another, or perhaps
to take the Oathbreaker paladin option.."

as to violation examples, they are in the same grey text box:

"A paladin tries to hold to the highest standards of conduct,
but even the most virtuous paladin is fallible. Sometimes
the right path proves too demanding, sometimes a situation
calls for the lesser of two evils, and sometimes the heat of
emotion causes a paladin to transgress his or her oath."

Here's what they say about warlocks:
"The beings that serve as patrons for warlocks are
mighty inhabitants of other planes of existence—not
gods, but almost godlike in their power. Various patrons
give their warlocks access to different powers and
invocations, and expect significant favors in return."

Eldricht Invocations
"In your study of occult lore, you have unearthed eldritch
invocations, fragments of forbidden knowledge that
imbue you with an abiding magical ability."

Pact Boons
"...your otherworldly patron bestows a gift
upon you for your loyal service."

So warlock patrons bestow power that they expect payment for, grant forbidden knowledge, and reward loyal service, not just lip service. Those all seem like contrary things for a paladin to deal with all the time.

[Daishain]

A patron grants power for service... it doesn't have to necessarily be evil, but they expect their payment for that power. If that payment is revoked then so to is the power.
See, this is the problem, you're assuming things that aren't there. It is explicitly stated that not all warlock pacts involve any kind of service or payment (example used was a warlock learning from a great old one without the being's knowledge), and there is no mechanic by which a warlock loses his power.

By context, it looks more like a Warlock is gaining knowledge and/or perhaps some changes to his physiology than receiving a stream of power that can be cut off. If this is the case, a patron might be able to take back some of his gifts if angry, but it would require an aggressive move on his part to catch the warlock. As a result, while a pact might entail ongoing service that one can't break from (more likely to occur with Fiend and Lich pacts), the more likely configuration is a series of favors. Stop doing favors for your patron and he won't give you any more secrets, but nothing is stopping you from using the ones you already possess.

[smcmike]

Note that the description of the pact is left purposefully vague. A warlock can enter a pact by accident - there are two examples of this listed, essentially being enchanted and entangled by a fey or brushing the mind of a great old one.

Here's an example of a simple and prototypical pact with a fiend - the fiend gets the souls of anyone the character kills. The paladin is ok with sending evil souls to their punishment (no mercy is part of his oath!), but tries hard not to kill anyone who isn't evil, since he knows the terrible bargain he has struck. The patron may want more souls, but it is a bargain, not a worship relationship.

[Citan]

I'm going to create a character for Al which will be a mix of warlock/Paladin, the stats aren't a problem(standard arrayunless point buy is better) race(variant human for the feat/half elf) neither.
The character should be a paladin/bladelock so to maximize the sinergy:

1) Starting class: should it be Paladin or warlock (i'm leaning towards paladin)

2) at what paladin level should i multiclass into warlock(Archfey)
Hi ;)
Some already gave their opinions so I'll probably be only adding a small bit, but hey... ;)

Since you plan on making a pact with Archfey, I'd guess thematically Ancients Oath would be the most coherent. Although technically you could always find a backstory that makes any Oath Work.
In which case Tomelock is imo by far the best choice, mechanically and thematically.
Taking Shillelagh will make you a single-stat cha will helps in turn spending ASI on feats.
In which case you could start either as Paladin or Warlock, both having benefits:
Paladin: heavy armor, better HP, Wisdom save.
Warlock: Constitution save.

As I think about it, I'd say in fact, if you plan on taking Tome Pact and Shillelagh, start Warlock. Why?

1. As a Paladin/Warlock melee, you will probably want good concentration save (Hex, Haste, Greater Invisibility, etc). You could always take Resilient, but starting Warlock frees a feat.

2. If you take Shillelagh, that means you don't plan on using heavy, STR-related weapons. In that case, you could very well dump STR altogether to multiclass requirement and instead start with decent to good DEX. Since you will then max only CHA, you can make it work even with point buy or standard array. You lose heavy armor (which is significant but not heavy -pardon the easy pun-) and Wisdom proficiency (which will be compensated later by Paladin class feature) to gain still decent armor (learn "free Mage Armour" for first Warlock levels if needed then swap later) and better initiative and "fireball" saves.

3. You still get the required proficiencies to use Shillelagh.

4. You will in fact be as efficient in melee (or a bit more) than if starting Paladin, thanks to melee cantrips and Hex. And you also get a potent ranged cantrip to engage.

So, if you want to make your build alone, don't read the spoiler.
If you'd like a suggestion of level-by-level build as just inspiration or step-by-step build, carry on. ;)

Half-Elf
1. Warlock (as explained): Hex and whatever you want, Eldricht Blast, GreenFlameBlade or Booming Blade.
2. Warlock (because 2nd spell slot and Invocations)
3. Warlock Tome (Shillelagh, Thorn Whip, Find Familiar) and Mirror Image.
4. Paladin (it's high time).
5. Paladin (lvl 1 spells!! Now you can consider using Bless instead of Hex when needed)
6. Paladin (Oath)
7. Paladin (ASI = CHA)
8. Paladin (Extra attack is a bit of a waste since you have cantrip, but can be useful in some situations).
9. Paladin (+CHA to saves)
10. Paladin (Magic Resistance)
11+ As you want.
This progression may not be the best one, because it delays the ASIs and Paladin features.
As a counterpart, you get Shillelagh ASAP so then you will become much better in fights.
For the remaining levels, consider taking Paladin up to 9 for another ASI and lvl 3 spells. End build Paladin 9 / Warlock 11 will be efficient especially if you use the melee cantrip rather than Extra Attack (except when you want to nova-smite). And you can take Polearm Master and Warcaster feats.


Alternatively, you could start just Warlock 1 then immediately go Paladin, but with Vengeance Oath: its features will support you until you get Shillelagh, and can stack with it.

Or, start Paladin but as a Variant Human with Resilient:Con feat. But seems a bit overkill to me.


My 2 cents, have fun ,)

[Fighting_Ferret]

The post above is the example I see the most... I rest my case. It's going to happen regardless of what I say or do, and that is fine.

You are looking for ways to make it work at any cost, I am looking for ways to argue against the natural synergies of the 2 classes. I am willing to say we are in a perpetual disagreement and leave it at that.

[RulesJD]

Hi ;)


1. As a Paladin/Warlock melee, you will probably want good concentration save (Hex, Haste, Greater Invisibility, etc). You could always take Resilient, but starting Warlock frees a feat.



Why do people keep saying this?

Warlocks get Wisdom and Charisma saves, not Constitution. That's Sorcerers.

[Citan]

Why do people keep saying this?

Warlocks get Wisdom and Charisma saves, not Constitution. That's Sorcerers.

Aaah. Ouch.
You're perfectly right, my bad, I was AFB and totally mixed up Sorcerer and Warlock.
My bad.

Starting Paladin is the way to go then. :)

The post above is the example I see the most... I rest my case. It's going to happen regardless of what I say or do, and that is fine.

You are looking for ways to make it work at any cost, I am looking for ways to argue against the natural synergies of the 2 classes. I am willing to say we are in a perpetual disagreement and leave it at that.
Not sure why you're including me in your discussion with others.
I specifically avoided this discussion because it's meaningless to me.

Players who roleplay will always find a natural way to make their concept work in a legitimate way, with or without DM help (= starting "as is" or as a consequence of things they do or things that happen to them in a campaign).

Players who think only to optimize mechanically won't be ever interesting, whether they multiclass or not. :)

So, why fret over this? As a DM, I'd prefer work together with a player (maybe giving him hints as to how accomplish his destiny, or just noting his wish and pushing it abruptly upon him for the surprise) than just frown at the minmax approach and say "not allowed". ^^
After all, these kind of non-intuitive builds can often be the mold of great stories or characters...:smallwink:

As for my post, I just spoke of mechanical aspects since it seemed to be the request of OP (and I don't like to suggest fluff on my initiative since it's imo a very personal thing to do, and necessary step for someone to "take hold" of character). I could however propose such things if requested.
As others, I don't see plain incompatibility between most of the combinations. My main gripe though is that imo, this kind of character should happen more naturally because of a surprise event in a character destiny (= DM impulsion) than because of a straightforward intent from the character, but well that's essentially my personal taste here. :)

[coredump]

Remember, you can't completely dump Str, since you need Str 13 in order to MC.


But.... why MC? If you are already going Pal6, why stop? Pal8 gives ASI, Pal11 gives +1d8 per hit, Pal12 gives another ASI.

Getting a couple extra Smites just doesn't seem that big of a deal. Compare +1 to hit and +1 damage on *every* attack/hit, and getting an extra 2D8 on 2-3 hits a day. (And not on the BBEG, but the earlier fights.)

[RulesJD]

Remember, you can't completely dump Str, since you need Str 13 in order to MC.


But.... why MC? If you are already going Pal6, why stop? Pal8 gives ASI, Pal11 gives +1d8 per hit, Pal12 gives another ASI.

Getting a couple extra Smites just doesn't seem that big of a deal. Compare +1 to hit and +1 damage on *every* attack/hit, and getting an extra 2D8 on 2-3 hits a day. (And not on the BBEG, but the earlier fights.)

Self-heal on kill

Devil's Sight + Darkvision = I win button if your party doesn't mind

Short Rest rechargeable Healing+ Bless (Bless = more GWM hits/saves/helping party)

Access to Rituals (Find Familiar to basically eliminate the need for a scout + nearly at-will advantage for at least 1 hit)

Access to nearly the best at-will ranged damage (EB + AB + Hex)

Hex (Str checks for prone/grapple/etc)

Any 3 Cantrips = Guidance = mini-Alert feat. Also, now GFB/BB which can objectively be better when you aren't smiting and two targets are near each other.

Armor of Agathys because you're in melee so much.

[Fighting_Ferret]

@Citan Sorry to involve you. I was merely pointing out a response to a response offering mechanical build advise, which occurs frequently. Your mention of building whatever and throwing some fluff as an afterthought was what actually drew my eye. If I came off as painting you as doing something wrong, I sincerely apologize as that was not my intent.

RulesJD is another point... the mechanics are what the multi-class/dip is for, the fluff is just a means to justify it.

I'm not saying I'd never allow it in a game... it's just way too common for now. I get it, please have fun doing it whatever way you like. The goal is fun, so fun however you wish.

[RulesJD]

@Citan Sorry to involve you. I was merely pointing out a response to a response offering mechanical build advise, which occurs frequently. Your mention of building whatever and throwing some fluff as an afterthought was what actually drew my eye. If I came off as painting you as doing something wrong, I sincerely apologize as that was not my intent.

RulesJD is another point... the mechanics are what the multi-class/dip is for, the fluff is just a means to justify it.

I'm not saying I'd never allow it in a game... it's just way too common for now. I get it, please have fun doing it whatever way you like. The goal is fun, so fun however you wish.

Fully agreed, my answer was the mechanics answer.

For Fluff, my answer is that my guy is restricted by Adventurer's League rules, so it's as close as I can get to being a Death Knight/Blackguard/Fallen Paladin. He started out in life a gifted person, always getting lucky in life. He has some minor magical talents, but never knew exactly why and all the studying in the world never helped (Wild Magic Sorc 1st level)

It was a minor concern however given his privileged lifestyle. Before it was torn from him as he was forced to endure unimaginable horrors at the hands of dragon cultists. He took his Oath of Vengeance in the name of Tempus, swearing to bring death to all who slaughter innocents, regardless of good or evil intent. As the God of War, Tempus doesn't much care what is good or evil, only that fights are fair. The slaughter of his family represents all that he opposes.

But even he could not maintain his path. Seeking a way to guide his growing magical abilities, he reached out to what he thought was the avatar of Tempus, swearing his fealty for more power. Unbeknownst to him, the avatar was really Asmodeus in disguise. The actual Tempus, being of neutral feelings either way, wasn't particularly bothered if his true neutral follower gained more power through the machinations of Asmodeus, so long as the fights were fair and he stayed his blade against those unable to defend themselves.

Poof, there you have it. Oath of Vengeance with service to the true neutral god of war + Asmodeus tricking our rather unintelligent Paladin/Wild Magic Sorc = paladin + warlock + sorcerer fluff.

[Xetheral]

RulesJD is another point... the mechanics are what the multi-class/dip is for, the fluff is just a means to justify it.

Making a mechanical choice with regards to mechanical benefit doesn't require that the fluff be a post-hoc rationalization. It's equally possible that the player, having specific fluff in mind, selects a certain multiclass or dip to get access to the mechanics that best realize the fluff. Do you object to the latter as well? Or only to the former?

[coredump]

This is kind of my point. You can make those 3 levels sound good, but once you start really looking into it, it starts to fall apart. Many of these work at cross purposes.


Self-heal on kill
Armor of Agathys because you're in melee so much

At 9th level (P6/W3) you only have 2nd level slots. Which means only 10THP. At 9th level you get one hit, and deal 10 damage. Seems like a waste of a 2nd level slot.
Plus the THP from Fiend and AoA work against each other.



Devil's Sight + Darkvision = I win button if your party doesn't mind Yep, this is one of the Big Cheese combo's in the game. But the 'party doesn't mind' is a *really* big caveat.


Short Rest rechargeable Healing+ Bless (Bless = more GWM hits/saves/helping party)
In return you have 15 fewer LoH hp to heal. And since you get hit a lot, Bless is not real long lasting. And you have fewer ASI so taking Res(Con) is much harder.
It also means you are *not* getting those 'extra smites' that folks keep talking about.


Access to Rituals (Find Familiar to basically eliminate the need for a scout + nearly at-will advantage for at least 1 hit) Giving up 3 levels of Pal in order to cast Alarm and LTH doesn't seem worthwhile, but its at least a legit boost.


Access to nearly the best at-will ranged damage (EB + AB + Hex) But works against being a paladin. You are better off being in melee, if you are spending rounds casting EB instead of moving into combat, you are making a bad trade. The number of times my lvl 13 Paly has used a ranged attack is <5.


Hex (Str checks for prone/grapple/etc) Sure, if you have a grapple based paladin (does anyone have a grapple based paladin??) Of course, Veng Pal get Hunter's Mark. And the ASI will give you +1. As for melee, Hex is conc, so it won't last too long.


Any 3 Cantrips = Guidance = mini-Alert feat. Also, now GFB/BB which can objectively be better when you aren't smiting and two targets are near each other.
.
Ha, if your DM lets you cast Guidance *every* minute... good for you. And no, GFB is not normally going to be better than taking two attacks.


Also, your list assumes three different invocations, yet you only get 2 at that level...


And lets see what you are giving up.....

ASI means another +1 to hit, so lets say another 10% hits/damage. And each hit does an extra 1 damage.
You get access to level 3 Paladin spells, (Aura vitality, Haste, Crusader's Mantle, Elemental Weapon, etc)
Which also means 4D8 smites are available.
10' charm immunity OR move on OA OR 10' resist spell damage
3 more hit points.
15 more LoH heal points.
3 levels closer to IDS

[RulesJD]

This is kind of my point. You can make those 3 levels sound good, but once you start really looking into it, it starts to fall apart. Many of these work at cross purposes.



At 9th level (P6/W3) you only have 2nd level slots. Which means only 10THP. At 9th level you get one hit, and deal 10 damage. Seems like a waste of a 2nd level slot.
Plus the THP from Fiend and AoA work against each other.

Yep, this is one of the Big Cheese combo's in the game. But the 'party doesn't mind' is a *really* big caveat.


In return you have 15 fewer LoH hp to heal. And since you get hit a lot, Bless is not real long lasting. And you have fewer ASI so taking Res(Con) is much harder.
It also means you are *not* getting those 'extra smites' that folks keep talking about.

Giving up 3 levels of Pal in order to cast Alarm and LTH doesn't seem worthwhile, but its at least a legit boost.

But works against being a paladin. You are better off being in melee, if you are spending rounds casting EB instead of moving into combat, you are making a bad trade. The number of times my lvl 13 Paly has used a ranged attack is <5.

Sure, if you have a grapple based paladin (does anyone have a grapple based paladin??) Of course, Veng Pal get Hunter's Mark. And the ASI will give you +1. As for melee, Hex is conc, so it won't last too long.


Ha, if your DM lets you cast Guidance *every* minute... good for you. And no, GFB is not normally going to be better than taking two attacks.


Also, your list assumes three different invocations, yet you only get 2 at that level...


And lets see what you are giving up.....

ASI means another +1 to hit, so lets say another 10% hits/damage. And each hit does an extra 1 damage.
You get access to level 3 Paladin spells, (Aura vitality, Haste, Crusader's Mantle, Elemental Weapon, etc)
Which also means 4D8 smites are available.
10' charm immunity OR move on OA OR 10' resist spell damage
3 more hit points.
15 more LoH heal points.
3 levels closer to IDS

Time to get wrecked:

1. You conveniently neglected to see where I said that I took levels in Sorc. Aka I have more higher level slots, so I usually drop a level 4 slot on AoA, which = ~40 cold damage and I can buff before hand.

AoA and Fiend Temp HP do not overlap. AoA does its cold damage until fully depleted so I just don't accept the Temp HP until after AoA goes away.

2. Less LOH matters preciously zero. With the way healing works in 5e, it's almost always the better move to just wait until unonscious and then drop a Healing Word. There is no situation where 15 extra LOH will make a lick of difference when you already have 30 LOH to pull from AND SHORT REST RECHARGEABLE 2nd LEVEL CURE WOUNDS. LOH is Long Rest. I'll take an extra ~4d8+8hp healed (average...26 aka more than LOH).

3. If you are failing Constitution saves with Bless up, you're doing this wrong. 1st level in Sorc = Proficiency Con saves. At least 16 CHA. So by level 7 (Sorc 1/Paladin 6) I'm pumping out +9 Con Save (Proficiency, +2 Con, +3 Cha, +min 1 from Bless). What does that mean? I means you automatically succeed on any damage <21. Because even on a roll of a 1, with +9 I hit.

4. Way to completely ignore what I wrote. I'm not giving up 3 PAL for those rituals. I'm giving them up for Find Familiar + Detect Magic, aka no real need for a party Rogue anymore AND I can generate advantage almost at-will with an Owl doing Flyby. Which, combined with the SCAG cantrips, suddenly because exceedingly useful. Even more so when combined with GWM that I take at level 4 (or level 1 if Variant Human).

So long as I can see the combat coming >6 seconds in advance, I can cast Guidance. Does that always apply? No, but it happens quite often.

5. Just because your DM sucks and hasn't throw Dragons et al flying enemies at your Paladin doesn't mean having nearly the best at-will damage from 120ft (technically 90ft for Hex) isn't amazing).

Now, let's proceed to destroy your arguments:

1. +1 to hit/damage is laughly not +10% more damage. You know what is? Having an Owl to Flyby nearly at-will for GWM strikes. Your method loses, you're going to notice that's about to be a pattern here.

2. The only level 3 Paladin spell that I care about is Haste. But wait, you obviously think that's a horrible spell to take. How I know that you think Haste is a horrible spell? Because you're going to be in melee (as you said) and you're going to get hit a ton (as you said) and so your concentration is going to be broken a lot (as you've already said twice).

You do know how Haste works right? When you lose concentration on Haste, you have to give up an entire round of actions. Good job there. Haste is an objectively amazing spell, and much better to have cast on the melee character from afar than on the melee character themselves, especially without Bless to add to their save.

3. 4d8 Smites? You know what beats that? Getting at least 3d8 smites rechargeable on a short rest. Unless your campaign literally never takes short rests, you're going to get significantly more use out of short rest smites than long rest higher ones.

4. The level 7 spell resistance aura is baller. It's also not what most people get because Vengeance is significantly better. For a defensive Paladin build, you're 100% correct that you can't beat that.

The other ones are spectacularly useless.

[danpit2991]

"The most important aspect of a paladin character is
the nature of his or her holy quest."

"Warlocks are driven by an insatiable need for knowledge
and power, which compels them into their pacts and
shapes their lives."

Those two things are not in synergy with each other.


unless you have an insatiable need for knowledge and power to accomplish your holy quest

[Citan]

@Citan Sorry to involve you. I was merely pointing out a response to a response offering mechanical build advise, which occurs frequently. Your mention of building whatever and throwing some fluff as an afterthought was what actually drew my eye. If I came off as painting you as doing something wrong, I sincerely apologize as that was not my intent.

RulesJD is another point... the mechanics are what the multi-class/dip is for, the fluff is just a means to justify it.

I'm not saying I'd never allow it in a game... it's just way too common for now. I get it, please have fun doing it whatever way you like. The goal is fun, so fun however you wish.
No offense taken don't worry. :)

And it's true that we see very often on this forum the "mechanics first fluff later". But isn't this behaviour strongly biaised by the forum concept itself? ;)
I mean, maybe not everyone is interested in reading one page fluff of character each time someone ask for help (although I'd love it personnally, because it's always a source of inspiration).

Another problem comes imo from D&d 5 itself. 4e had flaws, but at least it allowed players to start with characters that matched their fluff from lvl 1 onwards thanks to the hybrid mechanic.

While it's always possible to do something similar with a DM, not everyone will agree to it. And without DM, you're stuck with the level progression mechanic which makes you wonder how to realize the character concept without dying or more generally be useless during a part of your career.

I think these are the reasons why we seem to see much more emphasis on mechanics over fluff in the forums. :)

@Coredump: just on the point that "Extra Attack > GFB/BB", I'd say it depends on many things.
Want to smite the most? Extra Attack.
Draconic Sorcerer? Cantrip.
Don't have Improved Divine Smite? Cantrip.
Even at highest level, I'm not sure the Extra Attack with IDS would be much different from cantrip. ;)
Others had made the maths here (without IDS) and concluded that cantrip > extra attack after level 11 IIRC. ;)

[MaxWilson]

@Coredump: just on the point that "Extra Attack > GFB/BB", I'd say it depends on many things.
Want to smite the most? Extra Attack.
Draconic Sorcerer? Cantrip.
Don't have Improved Divine Smite? Cantrip.
Even at highest level, I'm not sure the Extra Attack with IDS would be much different from cantrip. ;)
Others had made the maths here (without IDS) and concluded that cantrip > extra attack after level 11 IIRC. ;)

Extra Attack also makes you better at tanking because you have more opportunities to control enemies with grapple/push.

[Citan]

Extra Attack also makes you better at tanking because you have more opportunities to control enemies with grapple/push.
Totally right, forgot about it. :)

[djreynolds]

I'm assuming you've worked out the whole backstory and reason why? That is on you to justify that.

Now heavy armor requires a 15 in strength. If you go paladin first, this is the most likely reason, to have that proficiency in heavy armor, you can still be dexterity based and use leather armor, but if happen upon something like a belt of giant strength, now you can wear heavy armor.

The classes flow well together, but remember EB is used at disadvantage in melee, unless you take the cross-bow expert feat that allows all ranged attacks (including spells) to be used in melee without disadvantage. Or just use EB instead of a longbow.

So I'm assuming a 10 in dexterity and at least a 15 in strength. Now using plate armor and shield will require war caster, and its a good feat anyhow and is resilient con.

The question is are you using or planning to use EB in melee? If not you can just dump war caster and crossbow expert, rely on your sword and take resilient con.

I would take defensive style for +1 AC, and use a polearm and PAM over GWM/GWF because I like defense. I would rather HEX over hunter's mark, because it is necrotic and not based on the weapon's damage which foes could be resistant to non-magical damage. And this may allow you to select Oath of the Ancients which could further your back story.

PAM will give you a bonus attack and I'm assuming you are focusing on the big bad guy, and so all 3 hits will get hex, and at 11th level paladin you add an additional 1d8 in radiant damage. Necrotic and radiant could be very cool, your weapon say exhibits a gray light thus showing you are more neutral, as perhaps the Ancient power you serve.

I would go 12 paladin and 4 warlock and 4 sorcerer, as the shield spell is very potent when you need it.

Go storm sorcerer as it works out that your Ancient Power is a primordial elemental.

Max out charisma, strength. Grab resilient con. Grab PAM early. 5 feats/ASI. Pretty cool

But the backstory is on you.

[Herobizkit]

Opinions always vary, but Paladins and warlocks are most certainly synergistic by way of theme.

Consider:

There are three flavors of Paladin that are roughly alignment-based.
- Oath of Devotion is your catch-all do-gooder Paladin and lines up with Good.
- Oath of Ancients is your love-and-light hippie Paladin and could line up with Neutral.
- Oath of Vengeance is your Batman and could arguably line up with Evil (end justifies means).

Now look at the three flavors of warlock patrons:
- Archfey pact is aligning with fey and nature and can easily be paired with Oath of Ancients.
- Fiend pact is all fire and brimstone and right up the alley of a Vengeance paladin.
- While the Old One pact is more Neutral/unfathomable, a Devotion paladin could partner with some outer-planar Light being (for example, Keith Baker of Eberron fame wrote in a blog post that a Warlock of il-Yannah, the Path of Light, would be thematic).

[Millstone85]

If your paladin patron were the same as the warlock's patron, then there would be no need to multi-class. Why would the patron grants you divine power on one side and arcane on the other?While the PHB lists the paladin as a divine class and the warlock as an arcane one, I find that distinction a bit muddy.

A paladin's dedication to an ideal can let them access certain powers without the help of a god, much like a druid's attunement to nature. Is that really so different from connecting with the Weave? A warlock can actually worship a fallen angel or an outer god and be rewarded with power. Is that really so different from being empowered by a god of the Outer Planes, especially an evil one?

It can be justified, of course. Perhaps the powers of a warlock are more durably their own than those of a paladin. But it is just as easy to rule that a fallen paladin is stuck with their last prepared spells, or that a warlock can have all magic taken away from them. The books do not really tell. Same goes for divine magic having special qualities, so that the power of a fey knight is divine while that of a feylock is arcane. That's really up to you and your setting.

It gets better with beings like the fey god Corellon, the devil god Asmodeus, the demon goddess Lolth or the GOO god Ghaunadaur (pun intended). It is like your patron is multiclassed too.

[Talanos]

This may be slightly off topic from the original post (and I believe Unearthed Arcana isn't AL legal)...

Mechanically, Paladin and Warlock work really well together. There's a question about story and fluff and how the two work in terms of character.

The Undying Light Warlock Patron in the UA: Underdark article would seem to be the perfect answer to this dilemma.

For those questioning how Paladin/Warlock works storywise, how do you feel about this clearly good aligned patron?

[Millstone85]

This may be slightly off topic from the original post (and I believe Unearthed Arcana isn't AL legal)...

Mechanically, Paladin and Warlock work really well together. There's a question about story and fluff and how the two work in terms of character.

The Undying Light Warlock Patron in the UA: Underdark article would seem to be the perfect answer to this dilemma.

For those questioning how Paladin/Warlock works storywise, how do you feel about this clearly good aligned patron?I think paladin/warlock works well storywise but I will share my thoughts on the Undying Light warlock anyway.

First, I think the subclass might not be so clearly good aligned. Yes, everything from Arcadia to Ysgard has a strong connection with the Positive Energy Plane, but that doesn't necessarily mean the PEP itself is a plane of goodness.

Secondly, the Undying Light warlock is a truly patron-less warlock. That bothers me a bit. Really, I would have made the Undying Light a sorcerous origin and the Favored Soul a warlock patronage.

Still, it is true that the Undying Light is thematically great for paladin/warlock.

On yet another note, Oathbreaker/Undying (not Light, the one from SCAG) makes a lot of sense too.

[Fighting_Ferret]

Here is my point... if warlock wasn't CHA based, and say, INT based instead... would you still see so much abuse for the dip? Very likely due to...
it being so front loaded with goodies for 3 other casting classes that 2 levels is seen as as good or better then advancing in their actual class.

I don't see too many paladin/wizards running around... or paladin/clerics either...

[Arkhios]

Don't know about Paladin & Warlock Sinergy. But I do know Sinergy. It was a finnish metal band (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinergy).

Seriously though, short answer: In my opinion, they have no synergy at all, because, as said numerous times before me, Paladins in general answer to a higher calling, be it from a god or sovereign. Warlocks in general seek only to become more powerful, willing to sell their souls to malevolent beings in exchange for power.

[smcmike]

Don't know about Paladin & Warlock Sinergy. But I do know Sinergy. It was a finnish metal band (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinergy).

Seriously though, short answer: In my opinion, they have no synergy at all, because, as said numerous times before me, Paladins in general answer to a higher calling, be it from a god or sovereign. Warlocks in general seek only to become more powerful, willing to sell their souls to malevolent beings in exchange for power.

And, as has been said numerous times before you as well, answering to a higher calling sometimes requires power, and there is actually nothing in the warlock section that requires soul-selling. The standard great old one fluff is something like "found unspeakable secrets in a mysterious old book, secrets which put them in contact with unknowable powers."

[tieren]

Don't know about Paladin & Warlock Sinergy. But I do know Sinergy. It was a finnish metal band (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinergy).

Seriously though, short answer: In my opinion, they have no synergy at all, because, as said numerous times before me, Paladins in general answer to a higher calling, be it from a god or sovereign. Warlocks in general seek only to become more powerful, willing to sell their souls to malevolent beings in exchange for power.

Lets take it down a notch from the outer planes to something more concrete.

Lets suppose for a minute that the "higher calling" was dutiful and self sacrificing service to their king and kingdom. Now suppose the king had other followers who were only serving for selfish reasons, but the king gave them boons for their service anyway. Wouldn't it make sense for the king to also give those boons to the dutiful knight that served willingly in the first place?

Now step back, you are an Oath of the Ancients paladin, promoting light and joy in the service of an ancient fey household. Your lord has warlocks he bargains with to get good service, which you provide willingly. He has an important task for you but believes you need more than just your paladin might to complete it and offers to grant you a boon. Wouldn't it be reasonable to accept it?

[Fighting_Ferret]

My question then is why Warlock... Is it the CHA based casting? The 2 spells slots that recharge on short rests? The invocations? Eldricht Blast? Why don't I see Wizard or Cleric being all the rage?

[Daishain]

Don't know about Paladin & Warlock Sinergy. But I do know Sinergy. That's a finnish metal band (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinergy).

Seriously though, short answer: In my opinion, they have no synergy at all, because, as said numerous times before me, Paladins in general answer to a higher calling, be it from a god or sovereign. Warlocks in general seek only to become more powerful, willing to sell their souls to malevolent beings in exchange for power.
Again with the misconceptions...

-5E Paladins do not necessarily answer to either gods or sovereigns. Their loyalty and power stems from dedication to a cause. They might swear their oath to a god or ruler, or they might not, frankly that aspect is secondary.
-Not all paladins would be unwilling to seek out a dark pact if such is necessary to achieve their goals. An example I used before was a Vengeance paladin that sought aid from a Devil in hunting down his sworn enemy, Demons.
-Not all warlocks seek power at all. Some have the pact forced on them, some are simple seekers of knowledge whose research took them down an unusual path, and some use the pact as a stepping stone for their real goals
-Not all pacts require service. Some warlocks receive their power as a gift, some develop it via accidental exposure or through intensive study of strange phenomenon.
-Not all warlock patrons are malevolant. Fiends are, no argument there. But there are extremely good archfey, most great old ones are inscrutable in purpose, leaving them in a neutral position. Heck, even the Lich doesn't necessarily have an evil purpose, at least in regards to what he wants the warlock to do. And then there's the undying light patron, which is not a being at all, but rather the positive energy plane, the source of all light and life in the D&D universe, and in many ways the backbone for all that is Good in it as well.
-The vast majority of warlocks don't sell their souls, and only the fiend patron is likely to ask for it. Even then, Warlocks working with fiends tend to hold onto that bargaining chip. Oh, those working for fiends are almost certainly destined for the lower planes, but are likely to be angling for an important position there, and selling one's immortal self to the first peon to offer a deal is not conducive to that goal

All in all, while there are paladins and warlocks that are about as compatible as matter and antimatter, there is a hell of a lot of variety in both categories, and plenty of room for a very thematic multiclass.


My question then is why Warlock... Is it the CHA based casting? The 2 spells slots that recharge on short rests? The invocations? Eldricht Blast? Why don't I see Wizard or Cleric being all the rage?
Wisdom and Intelligence are dump stats for Paladins, and Paladins are quite MAD as things stand. Furthermore, Wizard doesn't fit from a thematic point of view (they're pretty much polar opposites), and for some odd reason there is zilch mechanical synergy between paladin and cleric.

As a result, if looking at increasing or modifying spellcasting potential, your best bets are the other Cha casters, Bard, Sorcerer, or Warlock. All three of which actually work pretty darn well when mixed with Paladin. However, of the three, Warlock is the best at addressing all of the Paladin's principle weaknesses. (good ranged options, dealing with groups, and short rest resources) There are also some potential thematic issues with the others, warlock isn't alone in that respect. Claiming a blood heritage a la the sorcerer isn't appropriate to most characters, and a lot of Paladins are stoic enough to make training as an entertainer seem... off.

[tieren]

My question then is why Warlock... Is it the CHA based casting? The 2 spells slots that recharge on short rests? The invocations? Eldricht Blast? Why don't I see Wizard or Cleric being all the rage?

For paladins I think the short rest recharging slots to smite with is a big deal, also as a half caster the invocations that let you have free at will casting can make a big difference in style and preserve more slots for smiting.

Also paladins don't have great ranged options (no cantrips, probably went str for heavy armor so less Dex for ranged weapons) so picking up the best at will ranged damage in the game is attractive too.

You don't really getting anything comparable with Wiz or cleric (maybe a shield spell).

[smcmike]

My question then is why Warlock... Is it the CHA based casting? The 2 spells slots that recharge on short rests? The invocations? Eldricht Blast? Why don't I see Wizard or Cleric being all the rage?

Obviously it is the Charisma synergy - the same reason you DO see paladin/bard and paladin/sorcerer.

It's just harder to make a paladin/cleric or paladin/wizard that works.

In a way, your question is similar to "why don't I see more barbarians that dump constitution and focus on intelligence."

[Fighting_Ferret]

Now step back, you are an Oath of the Ancients paladin, promoting light and joy in the service of an ancient fey household. Your lord has warlocks he bargains with to get good service, which you provide willingly. He has an important task for you but believes you need more than just your paladin might to complete it and offers to grant you a boon. Wouldn't it be reasonable to accept it?

Funny... first off the the Oath of the Ancients is the neutral good / neutral aligned paladin... no where in the description does it say you serve a fey lord... in fact, their channel divinity:Turn the Faithless actively rebukes Fey and Fiends. Lets look at those oaths again too.

Kindle the Light: Be merciful, kind, forgiving... fight against despair.
Shelter the Light: Protect love, good, beauty, and laughter from the evil that would destroy it.
Preserve You Own Light: Delight in the song, laughter, beauty, and art... If you allow the light to die in your own heart, you can't preserve it in the world.
Be the Light: Be a glorious beacon for all those who live in despair. Let the light of your joy and courage shine forth in ALL your deeds.

Oath of Vengeance is the Lawful Neutral or True Neutral alignment option, that everyone is so gung-ho about making them evil... and making a pact with a fiend is just so compelling...

Fight the Greater Evil: Faced with the choice of fighting my sworn foes or combating a lesser evil. I chose the greater evil. (What is the fight is against your foe and a greater evil, say their patron?)
No Mercy for the Wicked: Ordinary foes might win mercy, but my sworn foes do not.
By Any Means Necessary: My qualms can't get in the way of exterminating my foes. (Sure, but going against the law and making a pact with a fiend are two different things...)
Restitution: If my foes wreak ruin on the world it is because I failed to stop them. I must help those harmed by their misdeeds.

Their channel divinity feature: Abjure enemy works on anything...but grants advantage against fiends and undead.
Their capstone takes the form of Angelic Avenger.
Words used in the paladin class description... holy, righteous, good, divine, sacred
Divine Smite deals bonus damage to fiends and undead.

So why again does warlock synergize so well?

[Fighting_Ferret]

Obviously it is the Charisma synergy - the same reason you DO see paladin/bard and paladin/sorcerer.

Exactly... it isn't for the compelling character reason... it's the bonuses!




It's just harder to make a paladin/cleric or paladin/wizard that works.


Harder, but not impossible. If either class offered more spell slots and regaining them on a short rest, you might see it.



In a way, your question is similar to "why don't I see more barbarians that dump constitution and focus on intelligence."

Why not? Is a learned barbarian actually a bad thing?

[smcmike]

Funny... first off the the Oath of the Ancients is the neutral good / neutral aligned paladin... no where in the description does it say you serve a fey lord... in fact, their channel divinity:Turn the Faithless actively rebukes Fey and Fiends. Lets look at those oaths again too.

Kindle the Light: Be merciful, kind, forgiving... fight against despair.
Shelter the Light: Protect love, good, beauty, and laughter from the evil that would destroy it.
Preserve You Own Light: Delight in the song, laughter, beauty, and art... If you allow the light to die in your own heart, you can't preserve it in the world.
Be the Light: Be a glorious beacon for all those who live in despair. Let the light of your joy and courage shine forth in ALL your deeds.

I don't see how categorizing it by alignment is helpful, considering that it's not clear cut, and also that warlock is not alignment restricted. I'd maybe build a chaotic good ancient/fey palalock.

You are here arguing that a paladin referred to in the text as a "fey knight" should not have any dealings with an archfey. This seems odd. The ability to turn or rebuke fey is the FIRST THING I would want as a warlock who has lots of dealings with them.



Oath of Vengeance is the Lawful Neutral or True Neutral alignment option, that everyone is so gung-ho about making them evil... and making a pact with a fiend is just so compelling...

Fight the Greater Evil: Faced with the choice of fighting my sworn foes or combating a lesser evil. I chose the greater evil. (What is the fight is against your foe and a greater evil, say their patron?)
No Mercy for the Wicked: Ordinary foes might win mercy, but my sworn foes do not.
By Any Means Necessary: My qualms can't get in the way of exterminating my foes. (Sure, but going against the law and making a pact with a fiend are two different things...)
Restitution: If my foes wreak ruin on the world it is because I failed to stop them. I must help those harmed by their misdeeds.

Their channel divinity feature: Abjure enemy works on anything...but grants advantage against fiends and undead.
Their capstone takes the form of Angelic Avenger.
Words used in the paladin class description... holy, righteous, good, divine, sacred
Divine Smite deals bonus damage to fiends and undead.

So why again does warlock synergize so well?

Again, the alignment discussion is irrelevant. You can be a lawful good fiend lock.

By any means necessary makes no reference to going against the law. It's going against one's concience. And it doesn't say "by any means necessary unless I have to make a deal with a fiend, in which case no way."

[smcmike]

Harder, but not impossible. If either class offered more spell slots and regaining them on a short rest, you might see it.



Why not? Is a learned barbarian actually a bad thing?

Because a barbarian that dumps constitution dies.

This is a game as well as an excuse for storytelling. My point is that an extension of your objection to this particular use of the game to support a character concept is an objection to every character.

"Oh, I see, another rogue with high dexterity. Sounds like power gaming to me!"

The other answer is simply that, within the game, it is clearly necessary to have a high charisma to be a paladin and also to be a warlock. Someone with a high charisma may find them self going down those paths, whereas a warrior with high intelligence may end up as an eldritch knight instead.

[Gtdead]

If either class offered more spell slots and regaining them on a short rest, you might see it.


Well, wizard actually offers both more spellslots and he gets them back in a short rest (even though it's once per day). If wizard was charisma based I'd pick him over warlock any time. But it's impossible to get enough ASIs to create a viable character with that multiclass. Warlock is more of a necessary evil than anything else in that regard.

Which sucks for my paladin. He is a member of an order that protects the world from an ancient and evil coven, while searching for magical artifacts to either destroy them or repurpose them. I would be right at home with a wizard multiclass.

[JoeJ]

You are here arguing that a paladin referred to in the text as a "fey knight" should not have any dealings with an archfey. This seems odd. The ability to turn or rebuke fey is the FIRST THING I would want as a warlock who has lots of dealings with them.

But it's the LAST THING you would probably want if you were the archfey offering the deal.

[smcmike]

But it's the LAST THING you would probably want if you were the archfey offering the deal.

The motivations of the fey are inscrutable.

Most of the fictional depictions of such relationships that I can think of are pretty prickly - my favorite is Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell.

Also, we are dealing with an archfey. Presumably they aren't threatened much by your turning attempts.

[Daishain]

But it's the LAST THING you would probably want if you were the archfey offering the deal.
As SMCMike mentions, an archfey is very unlikely to be affected by turning. At the same time, a servant that can't make it through a fey realm without being enchanted every five meters by some random pixie isn't a useful servant.

[Fighting_Ferret]

I don't see how categorizing it by alignment is helpful, considering that it's not clear cut, and also that warlock is not alignment restricted. I'd maybe build a chaotic good ancient/fey palalock.

You are here arguing that a paladin referred to in the text as a "fey knight" should not have any dealings with an archfey. This seems odd. The ability to turn or rebuke fey is the FIRST THING I would want as a warlock who has lots of dealings with them.



Again, the alignment discussion is irrelevant. You can be a lawful good fiend lock.

By any means necessary makes no reference to going against the law. It's going against one's concience. And it doesn't say "by any means necessary unless I have to make a deal with a fiend, in which case no way."

I am not offering up these alignments from my head... they are in the PHB Read the section on paladins.

Paladins: pg 77 - As guardians against the forces of wickedness, paladins are rarely of any evil alignment.
Devotion: pg 79-80 - While not explicitly stated...they are basically the traditional Lawful Good Paladin.
Ancient: pg 80-81 - The side with light over evil (good). Emphasize good over concern for law or chaos (neutral).
Vengeance: pg 81-82 - Often Neutral or Lawful Neutral in alignment.
Oathbreaker: An oathbreaker is a paladin who breaks their oath to pursue some dark ambition or serve an evil power. A paladin must be evil to be an oathbreaker.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm... not really understanding many of these complaints.

Mechanically, it is fairly balanced. You lose two levels from Paladin and get two levels of Warlock.Out of those two levels of Warlock, you don't really get much. You get couple of Cantrips, a couple of Invocations, and a couple of short-rest 1st level slots.

Now, for Cantrips, you can pick up something like Eldrich Blast and one of the SCAG cantrips and see a decent boost on damage, including a ranged damage option. And you can pick up CHA to your EB and one other invocation. But is that really worth two levels on the back-end of Paladin?

For a feat (and yes, feats are rare these days), you can get EB. Granted, there's a lot of other things you can do with a feat, but if you're really hard up for a ranged attack, a feat is less expensive.

I see a lot of people Stormwinding it up and trying to tell people how they must play their character... not sure I understand how anybody thinks those arguments have any validity whatsoever. Maybe there's a confusion between previous editions using a term in this edition that means something completely different? I dunno.

I don't think the warlock dip is worth it. Look at what you are losing! You lose an ability score improvement (since, unlike previous editions, they are based on class rather than character level) and your capstone ability at the very least. And you are delaying access to some of your most powerful abilities. I simply cannot understand why ANYONE would willingly go out of Paladin before 11 at all. Bonus damage on all attacks flat. And then 12th is another stat improvement. So you're looking at minimum 13th level before even considering going out of Paladin into something else. You get a freeking DISPEL at level 14. At level 15, for Oath of Ancients, you get a 'get out of death free' card, usable once per rest.

People look at what they get from a warlock dip... I look at what you lose access to. Minimum, it delays getting things far more powerful than a ranged blast (barring GM shennanigans with layouts). Maximum, it prevents you from picking up Good Things.

[tieren]

Funny... first off the the Oath of the Ancients is the neutral good / neutral aligned paladin... no where in the description does it say you serve a fey lord... in fact, their channel divinity:Turn the Faithless actively rebukes Fey and Fiends. Lets look at those oaths again too.



You misunderstood my intent. I did not mean an OotA paladin had to serve a fey lord, only that is a possible backstory. Generally I see paladins as knights, and generally knights serve a lord, certainly not a requirement of the game in any way, but not anathema to the the characters story either.

I'll tell you my character's backstory to see if it helps:

Hes a forest gnome, who was a friend to the little animals in the forest and an entertainer in his village. He distinguished himself once in defense of the village and began to study as a paladin under the tutelage of the town defender. He continued to entertain and rejoiced in song and dance. Then one day a greater threat called for he and his mentor to rally to a call of the local archfey in defense of their grove. He again distinguished himself and was invited to the court of the archfey for a victory celebration that lasted 20 years.

While at the party he revelled in the fey songs and learned their dances and enjoyed their stories.

He then fell in love with the archfey lady, and pledged to her his undying love and obedience. She did not return his affection but was grateful for his pledge and rewarded him by granting him boons as one of her warlocks.

Back in the mundane world he continues to grow as a paladin and a warlock, spreading the light through his songs and deeds (and telling anyone who will listen about the glories of his lady) and continuing to serve and honor his lady.

He has both the paladin powers of his oath to the light and his warlock powers from his bond with his lady. There is a potential for conflict if she ever calls on him to do something contrary to the oath, but he was already a paladin when he swore to her and that was part of his character she accepted at that time. It could conceivably come up but its not something he has to wrestle with on a daily basis.

[Fighting_Ferret]

tieren... it would seem like he has found a bond, and a strong focus for his oath... why would he need to be a warlock as well?

[smcmike]

That's a nice story! The possibility of mixed loyalties between your lord and your lady - I mean, talk about a foundational theme for paladins!

[Shining Wrath]

The rules for the Paladin in the PHB do not explicitly state they serve a deity. However, they have a lot of overlap with the cleric spell list and some magic items in the DMG require attunment by cleric or paladin.

As with many other 5e topics, I believe the question of "does a paladin serve a deity" is a DM one, and may well depend upon the archetype. An oath of the ancients paladin blends well with a feylock IMNHO, and a paladin of vengeance might even ask fiends for help in destroying their enemies (although that's more of a stretch).

[Xetheral]

tieren... it would seem like he has found a bond, and a strong focus for his oath... why would he need to be a warlock as well?

I'm confused... what does "need" have to do with it? Could you clarify, please? I'm not seeing what role you feel necessity plays in character creation. Isn't it all about choice?

[Fighting_Ferret]

He obviously found a basis for his paladin powers in the archfey lady. His oath is to her, or did he take a different oath, which if that were the case, then wouldn't he have broken his first oath? Hence the why the need to have both...? If it is the same oath, then why should he get the benefits of both classes?

His background is entertainer... he started training as a paladin level 1 and 2 then met an archfey lady, to which he gave his oath. He also stated that in his mind a paladin (knight) should serve a lord/lady.

[smcmike]

He obviously found a basis for his paladin powers in the archfey lady. His oath is to her, or did he take a different oath, which if that were the case, then wouldn't he have broken his first oath? Hence the why the need to have both...? If it is the same oath, then why should he get the benefits of both classes?

His background is entertainer... he started training as a paladin level 1 and 2 then met an archfey lady, to which he gave his oath. He also stated that in his mind a paladin (knight) should serve a lord/lady.

The problem is your idea that we should question his "need" to have both.

He wants both. The rules allow both (if you allow multi classing at all). He presented a nice story representing the fluff of both classes. He's sworn to serve the light, and has received a boon from his lady. Where's the issue?

[tieren]

He obviously found a basis for his paladin powers in the archfey lady. His oath is to her, or did he take a different oath, which if that were the case, then wouldn't he have broken his first oath? Hence the why the need to have both...? If it is the same oath, then why should he get the benefits of both classes?

His background is entertainer... he started training as a paladin level 1 and 2 then met an archfey lady, to which he gave his oath. He also stated that in his mind a paladin (knight) should serve a lord/lady.

That would have been one way to go. I chose to treat his oath to kindle the light and his oath to serve his lady as separate character components. the paladin powers don't come from the archfey, they come from his principled devotion to the ideals of his oath. his warlock powers are direct gifts from his lady.

My goal in the character creation was to create a fey knight (which I viewed similarly to the Green Knight played by Sean Connery). I wanted him to have plate mail, a strong connection to the fey, and magical powers (especially illusion). As a forest gnome he can cast minor illusion cantrip at will, as a warlock he can cast silent image at will. Hes going pact of the tome for the ritual casting, and allowing me to use a shillelagh based combat routine since forest gnomes are incapable of maxing both strength and charisma. I'm shooting personally for paladin 8/warlock 12 (note I won't lose an ASI).

The main things I want from paladin are my auras (especially the OotA one at level 7) and find steed (I want to ride a medium mount when dungeon crawling). He'll have misty step, and misty escape, greater invisibility and tons of at will illusions while he rides along in his heavy armor smiting things with his magic stick.

I might have been able to put that idea together several different ways, but I like this backstory too and it all fits. Its not that he needed to be a warlock or was driven by power lust to sell his soul. It just matches who he wants to be with how to get there in a package I find appealing. YMMV.

[Fighting_Ferret]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I hope you have fun with your character.