True polymorph question

[Spacehamster]

So if you wanted to permanently become what you morph into, what would be the most practical if you want to continue adventuring without scaring the pants out of every peasant rabble you meet(I'm looking at you dragons & fiends)? What's the most powerful angelic beeing you can turn into for example?

[SharkForce]

some dragons can change their appearance whenever they feel like it (including appearing as a humanoid), pretty much. problem solved.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

some dragons can change their appearance whenever they feel like it (including appearing as a humanoid), pretty much. problem solved.

Furthermore, a metallic dragon's Change Shape ability would also make you a lot more versatile, as you can use it to become more or less any humanoid NPC, abilities included. (Bonus points for Polymorphing into a dragon, Change Shaping into an Archmage, then using the Archmage's spells to polymorph into a Dragon again.)

[JeffreyGator]

You might also consider the possibility of being true polymorphed (by your friendly archmage) earlier in your career than when you get the ability.

Around level 10-12 a party should be able to beat an archmage (CR12) and compel such service possibly if there is a problem finding a friendly one and doing this as a quest reward.

Again, shapechangers make the best options.

CR 2-3 WereCreatures

CR4 Succubi

CR 10 Deva

Metallic Dragons as mentioned.

[Vogonjeltz]

So if you wanted to permanently become what you morph into, what would be the most practical if you want to continue adventuring without scaring the pants out of every peasant rabble you meet(I'm looking at you dragons & fiends)? What's the most powerful angelic beeing you can turn into for example?

If it takes effect the character is no longer themselves per se (they lose their skills and spellcasting and so forth, retaining only their personality which seems to equate to being a nice or not nice person). I'd say it's not dissimilar from what happens with the Queen in Brave. Sure, she is nice enough for a bear...but she's still a bear.

The D&D designers suggest the DM might let the character stay in the game if the form isn't annoying.
https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/608081631354560512


(Bonus points for Polymorphing into a dragon, Change Shaping into an Archmage, then using the Archmage's spells to polymorph into a Dragon again.)

The NPC types are in a separate appendix from the creature types. Archmage isn't a kind of creature, it's a profession. Elf is a kind of creature, and elves can be Archmages.

[SharkForce]

The NPC types are in a separate appendix from the creature types. Archmage isn't a kind of creature, it's a profession. Elf is a kind of creature, and elves can be Archmages.

this has been brought up before. officially, an archmage meets the requirements for being a creature. even a type of creature.

whether or not you *want* it to be a valid option for polymorph etc is another question entirely (I certainly don't). but according to the rules, it is.

[uraniumrooster]

If it takes effect the character is no longer themselves per se (they lose their skills and spellcasting and so forth, retaining only their personality which seems to equate to being a nice or not nice person). I'd say it's not dissimilar from what happens with the Queen in Brave. Sure, she is nice enough for a bear...but she's still a bear.

Hmm, interesting. You also retain your alignment, so an evil character could become an evil metallic dragon. That might be a fun gimmick to use as a DM to make an incognito villain.

To the OP's question: I would definitely agree with the metallic Dragon suggestion if you're looking at the permanent use of True Polymorph. Their Change Shape ability gives you a ton of flexibility. At the level you first get True Polymorph (assuming you're not multi-classed), you could go for an Adult Gold Dragon, which is a very strong option. Adult Silver is also really good, 1 CR lower, but their Paralyzing breath is probably better than the Gold Dragon's weakening breath. If you hold out until 20, then you have the option of Ancient Brass, which has a very nice sleep breath, and being an ancient dragon instead of just adult might be worth holding out for.

[Segev]

To me, the downside of this is that...you're giving all of your advancement in your classes to this point. Is totally changing what you are that good compared to being what you already were? This is especially true of, say, a 17th-level spellcaster.

[Gtdead]

Planetar is the most powerful celestial you can turn into. But then again, you don't really benefit from True Polymorphing yourself into one. You can always use shapechange. It's more versatile since you retain your spellcasting feature, and in that one hour you can shift into any creature you want, you are not limited to one.

On the other hand, you can always polymorph into a dragon and use his shapechange ability to turn into a humanoid.
My opinion is that it's pointless to plan for true polymorph. Every DM I've played with had strong feelings about it. Also it's a mess of a spell since it takes away your class levels, which creates obvious questions like "Well I'm a wizard, why can't I use my spellbook to cast the spells, it's not like I lost the knowledge.. Dragons are capable of spellcasting aren't they?"

If you want to turn into something else at high levels, think of it as epic boon and talk to your DM about it. For example my DM told me that he will allow me to shapechange into a Dragon at will at lvl 20 after a long quest, if we ever reach that level. I play a Paladin 2/ Drac Sorcerer x, he doesn't even have shapechange!

[uraniumrooster]

To me, the downside of this is that...you're giving all of your advancement in your classes to this point. Is totally changing what you are that good compared to being what you already were? This is especially true of, say, a 17th-level spellcaster.

In game terms, probably not. In-character though, it could be a strong temptation. Your character isn't aware of their own numerical stats or the stat-blocks of dragons, they just know they're some of the most powerful magical beings in the realms (in the Forgotten Realms setting anyway... in other settings dragons might not have the same allure). Plus, if you use True Polymorph and concentrate until it becomes permanent, you are a dragon. You might be an adult dragon now, but you will live to become an ancient dragon. And who wouldn't want to be a freaking dragon?! They can, like, fly and breathe fire and stuff.

Also... if you True Polymorph yourself into a Demilich, would you have a phylactery?

I ask because, if you do, you can use True Polymorph to become a demilich, go find some commoner and feed their soul into your phylactery, and become a full-fledged lich. Then, as a lich, I would assume you could still use your old spellbook (as long as you made sure to set it down before you cast True Polymorph so it didn't merge into your demilich form).

[Segev]

In game terms, probably not. In-character though, it could be a strong temptation. Your character isn't aware of their own numerical stats or the stat-blocks of dragons, they just know they're some of the most powerful magical beings in the realms (in the Forgotten Realms setting anyway... in other settings dragons might not have the same allure). Plus, if you use True Polymorph and concentrate until it becomes permanent, you are a dragon. You might be an adult dragon now, but you will live to become an ancient dragon. And who wouldn't want to be a freaking dragon?! They can, like, fly and breathe fire and stuff.The near-immortality life-extension would be nice, true. But you, as a powerful and knowledgeable wizard, know that using your spell means you can't cast magic as you have up 'til now anymore, at the very least. You're giving up your spellbook, because all your spells are for humanoid casting methods, and, er, um, your dragon magic interferes or something. (The fluff explanation is fluff; you know IC that you'll lose your class abilities, though.)


Also... if you True Polymorph yourself into a Demilich, would you have a phylactery?

I ask because, if you do, you can use True Polymorph to become a demilich, go find some commoner and feed their soul into your phylactery, and become a full-fledged lich. Then, as a lich, I would assume you could still use your old spellbook (as long as you made sure to set it down before you cast True Polymorph so it didn't merge into your demilich form).
I don't think you get the items of the creature in question. Are phylacteries Legendary or Lair powers? If so, you expressly don't get them.

Also, you get, by the RAW, the generic stat block. So you'd have only the spells of the book-version of the demilich. IF they can explicitly use wizards' spellbooks, though, you could at least regain yours.


And, this being 5e, the RAW being fiddly and flying in the face of reason means "ask your DM," because it's meant to be ruled to make sense in your individual game(s). Be prepared for the DM to say "no, don't," though if it's truly just an upgrade in power beyond what you "should" have for his game at your level.

[uraniumrooster]

The near-immortality life-extension would be nice, true. But you, as a powerful and knowledgeable wizard, know that using your spell means you can't cast magic as you have up 'til now anymore, at the very least. You're giving up your spellbook, because all your spells are for humanoid casting methods, and, er, um, your dragon magic interferes or something. (The fluff explanation is fluff; you know IC that you'll lose your class abilities, though.)

True enough. Although couldn't you use the Dragon's Change Shape ability to just shift back into your old humanoid self? It'd definitely a form you'd be familiar with.


I don't think you get the items of the creature in question. Are phylacteries Legendary or Lair powers? If so, you expressly don't get them.

Also, you get, by the RAW, the generic stat block. So you'd have only the spells of the book-version of the demilich. IF they can explicitly use wizards' spellbooks, though, you could at least regain yours.


And, this being 5e, the RAW being fiddly and flying in the face of reason means "ask your DM," because it's meant to be ruled to make sense in your individual game(s). Be prepared for the DM to say "no, don't," though if it's truly just an upgrade in power beyond what you "should" have for his game at your level.

Lol, yeah, it's not something I would ever actually try to pull off. Making a phylactery is supposed to be the big obstacle to becoming a lich, some dark, super-secret ritual. Getting one for free through True Polymorph would pretty much shortcut the whole process.

As a DM, if a player tried it, I'd let them become a demilich, but they would still have to discover the secret to building a phylactery and, until they did, they'd remain mortal and stuck in demilich form (which doesn't have any spells at all).

[Vogonjeltz]

this has been brought up before. officially, an archmage meets the requirements for being a creature. even a type of creature.

whether or not you *want* it to be a valid option for polymorph etc is another question entirely (I certainly don't). but according to the rules, it is.

Sorry, did Crawford or WotC put out errata/sage advice on the topic? Can you link that?

The appendix of the MM suggests the opposite of what you're saying, so that officially it does not meet the requirements as it's a type of NPC job, per that section, which is not a type of creature but instead something a type of creature, like an Elf, can be.

[RickAllison]

Sorry, did Crawford or WotC put out errata/sage advice on the topic? Can you link that?

The appendix of the MM suggests the opposite of what you're saying, so that officially it does not meet the requirements as it's a type of NPC job, per that section, which is not a type of creature but instead something a type of creature, like an Elf, can be.

One argument in favor of that interpretation is the difference between Shapechange and True Polymorph. Shapechange, IIRC, specifies that the spell only allows transformation into average examples of those creatures, but True Polymorph has no such restriction. Now why would they put a stipulation in one but not the other? Maybe because it was meant that TP should allow transformation into more specific creatures.

[SharkForce]

Sorry, did Crawford or WotC put out errata/sage advice on the topic? Can you link that?

The appendix of the MM suggests the opposite of what you're saying, so that officially it does not meet the requirements as it's a type of NPC job, per that section, which is not a type of creature but instead something a type of creature, like an Elf, can be.

NPCs are monsters. monsters are creatures. there is no dividing line as to what does or doesn't constitute a "type" of creature. true polymorph lets you turn into anything so long as it is a type of creature, and there is no language that remotely conclusively states that a harpy *is* a type of creature while an archmage is not. it is furthermore absolutely clear that polymorph can and indeed does rewrite basically everything about your mind apart from personality and alignment, so given that it can remove the knowledge of being a level 17 wizard or fighter and add the knowledge of how to use all of the abilities of any CR 17 or lower creature in existence, there isn't really a plausible reason to suppose it couldn't instill magical knowledge when it is perfectly capable of doing so in other creatures. unlike shapechange, there is no statement that class abilities of a creature that you assume the form of are not gained, either.

you can add in rules to change that if you want to. i would even recommend that you do. it is presumably balanced (inasmuch as CR 12 archmages are balanced), but for a lot of people it is undesirable.

if you have any information available to you beyond just "i feel like it shouldn't be possible, therefore i'm adding a few invisible paragraphs to the spell description and pretending that's the only possible interpretation", feel free to share.

if you want a 10+ page argument on the matter, go dig up the old one and read that. but there's no point in starting a new one unless you can provide actual new information that doesn't just have language that might vaguely imply whatever you want it to mean and presenting that as "proof".

[Segev]

True enough. Although couldn't you use the Dragon's Change Shape ability to just shift back into your old humanoid self? It'd definitely a form you'd be familiar with.

I don't know the dragon's ability well enough to comment. I will ask this: if you true polymorph into Bob the Cleric, do you get all of his class features?

[uraniumrooster]

I don't know the dragon's ability well enough to comment. I will ask this: if you true polymorph into Bob the Cleric, do you get all of his class features?

I would say yes. It says your game statistics are replaced by that of whatever creature you turn into, so tell Bob's player to photocopy his character sheet and go to town. The Dragon's Change Shape ability is similar. You keep your HPs, resistances, mental ability scores, and certain dragon abilities, but otherwise gain the game statistics of your new form. I don't see anything preventing you from changing shape back into your old self and using your old class features, spellbook, and equipment (assuming of course you remembered to set the latter two down before true polymorphing into a dragon). You wouldn't be able to gain levels anymore, however, since your old PC form would no longer be your true form.

[RickAllison]

I would say yes. It says your game statistics are replaced by that of whatever creature you turn into, so tell Bob's player to photocopy his character sheet and go to town. The Dragon's Change Shape ability is similar. You keep your HPs, resistances, mental ability scores, and certain dragon abilities, but otherwise gain the game statistics of your new form. I don't see anything preventing you from changing shape back into your old self and using your old class features, spellbook, and equipment (assuming of course you remembered to set the latter two down before true polymorphing into a dragon). You wouldn't be able to gain levels anymore, however, since your old PC form would no longer be your true form.


In a new form, the dragon retains its alignment, hit points,
Hit Dice, ability to speak, proficiencies, Legendary Resistance,
lair actions, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, as
well as this action. Its statistics and capabilities are otherwise
replaced by those of the new form , except any class features or
legendary actions of that form .

So you wouldn't get class features. Though I suppose it brings up the question of what constitutes a class feature. Since you get ASIs and feats from class levels, do those count (I think not, but there is an argument)? What about NPCs that don't have class levels and so no class features?

EDIT: Do note that no such restriction exists in the True Polymorph text.

[SharkForce]

it is likely that "bob the cleric" is not a type of creature. "cleric" may be a type of creature, as it is not a proper noun, though it would presumably be up to the DM to decide what a typical "cleric" has for statistics, since unlike "archmage" or "knight", there isn't a published generic "cleric" in the monster manual.

of course, this all presumes your DM has not houseruled true polymorph such that turning into a person with class levels or similar is not allowed.

[Falainothiras]

Concerning the Dragon polymorph, being one is nice and all, but doesn't that put you in serious danger?
Dragons are extremely egotistic creatures with their own politics, and you are an impostor, a fake dragon. As long as you remain hidden all is fine, until some other dragon realizes what you are.
As for this last part, can Detect Magic see that you are affected by True Polymorph?

[uraniumrooster]

So you wouldn't get class features. Though I suppose it brings up the question of what constitutes a class feature. Since you get ASIs and feats from class levels, do those count (I think not, but there is an argument)? What about NPCs that don't have class levels and so no class features?

EDIT: Do note that no such restriction exists in the True Polymorph text.

Good catch, thanks for pointing that out. I'm AFB so was going by memory for the Dragon's Change Shape ability.


it is likely that "bob the cleric" is not a type of creature. "cleric" may be a type of creature, as it is not a proper noun, though it would presumably be up to the DM to decide what a typical "cleric" has for statistics, since unlike "archmage" or "knight", there isn't a published generic "cleric" in the monster manual.

of course, this all presumes your DM has not houseruled true polymorph such that turning into a person with class levels or similar is not allowed.

I was assuming Bob was a cleric PC in the same group. If that's the case, I don't see an issue with it. As far as I can remember (again, I don't have my book handy so do correct me if I'm wrong), the text of the True Polymorph spell doesn't stipulate "creature type" or "creature with a published stat block", it just says "creature". "Bob" or "cleric," as isolated descriptors, might not be creature types published in the MM, but Bob, the cleric PC adventurer in the same party as our hypothetical True Polymorpher, is a specific creature whose form and abilities would be well known.

True Polymorph is a 9th level spell that should rightly be extremely powerful, IMO. Even using the most generous interpretation of the rules, I don't see any reason to house-rule it, as it's still nowhere near as game-breaking as Wish has the potential to be.


Concerning the Dragon polymorph, being one is nice and all, but doesn't that put you in serious danger?
Dragons are extremely egotistic creatures with their own politics, and you are an impostor, a fake dragon. As long as you remain hidden all is fine, until some other dragon realizes what you are.
As for this last part, can Detect Magic see that you are affected by True Polymorph?

Based on my recollection of the text, if you concentrate for the full duration then the transformation becomes permanent, altering your true form. You're not an imposter pretending to be a dragon, you are a dragon. Based on that, I don't think Detect Magic, Dispel Magic, True Seeing, etc., would reveal you to be anything but an actual dragon.

Other dragons might wonder where you came from, as they wouldn't remember seeing you at the last bi-millennial dragon ice cream social, but they wouldn't have any way to prove definitively that you are anything but a true dragon. Just tell them your dragon parents were a bit separatist and insisted on home-schooling or something.

[MaxWilson]

Other dragons might wonder where you came from, as they wouldn't remember seeing you at the last bi-millennial dragon ice cream social, but they wouldn't have any way to prove definitively that you are anything but a true dragon. Just tell them your dragon parents were a bit separatist and insisted on home-schooling or something.

Just tell them you're a recent arrival to this planet. By dragon standards, it's true.

[Zalabim]

True Polymorph is a 9th level spell that should rightly be extremely powerful, IMO. Even using the most generous interpretation of the rules, I don't see any reason to house-rule it, as it's still nowhere near as game-breaking as Wish has the potential to be.

I think the most broken ability of True Polymorph is the ability to turn a creature into any object with little fanfare and no limitations. Turn a cockroach into a Scarab of Protection. Turn a duck into Mt. Fuji. The most generous interpretation here definitely needs some house-ruling.


Based on my recollection of the text, if you concentrate for the full duration then the transformation becomes permanent, altering your true form. You're not an imposter pretending to be a dragon, you are a dragon. Based on that, I don't think Detect Magic, Dispel Magic, True Seeing, etc., would reveal you to be anything but an actual dragon.

When a spell becomes permanent, it's still in effect. So a permanent True Polymorph can still be detected or dispelled. The new wording in True Polymorph in the SRD clarifies this. This is one weakness of using True Polymorph to make absurd objects.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I think the most broken ability of True Polymorph is the ability to turn a creature into any object with little fanfare and no limitations. Turn a cockroach into a Scarab of Protection. Turn a duck into Mt. Fuji. The most generous interpretation here definitely needs some house-ruling.

Permanent creature-into-object is also pretty nasty. Nothing like a Silver Dragon production line.


When a spell becomes permanent, it's still in effect. So a permanent True Polymorph can still be detected or dispelled. The new wording in True Polymorph in the SRD clarifies this. This is one weakness of using True Polymorph to make absurd objects.

Don't suppose there's a source other than the SRD or Sage Advice? Those two don't really have the same weight as a proper errata.

[SharkForce]

Permanent creature-into-object is also pretty nasty. Nothing like a Silver Dragon production line.



Don't suppose there's a source other than the SRD or Sage Advice? Those two don't really have the same weight as a proper errata.

the SRD is as official as it gets.

@uraniumrooster: both object to creature and creature to creature specify you can turn into a kind (sorry, remembered it as type, but same basic meaning) of creature.

bob the cleric is not a kind of creature. (s)he's a specific creature. "a cleric" is a type of creature, and is a legitimate choice per RAW (but again, the DM will have to decide what the statistics are for "a cleric").

(on the other hand, "a level 17 cleric" is arguably a kind of creature, so you may very well be fine there).

(and of course, this all only applies if your DM doesn't houserule the spell to work differently, as i suspect many will).

[RickAllison]

Permanent creature-into-object is also pretty nasty. Nothing like a Silver Dragon production line.



Don't suppose there's a source other than the SRD or Sage Advice? Those two don't really have the same weight as a proper errata.

As SharkForce said, you can't really argue with the SRD. In terms of basic rules, it is more likely to be updated for minor errata than the books because it is the legal reference material. Heck, there is a good argument that the SRD has more weight than the PHB/DMG/MM! Remember what SRD means, System Reference Document. If you want the most up-to-date set of rules, that is the document to reference.

With Sage Advice, YMMV.

[Vogonjeltz]

NPCs are monsters. monsters are creatures. there is no dividing line as to what does or doesn't constitute a "type" of creature. true polymorph lets you turn into anything so long as it is a type of creature, and there is no language that remotely conclusively states that a harpy *is* a type of creature while an archmage is not. it is furthermore absolutely clear that polymorph can and indeed does rewrite basically everything about your mind apart from personality and alignment, so given that it can remove the knowledge of being a level 17 wizard or fighter and add the knowledge of how to use all of the abilities of any CR 17 or lower creature in existence, there isn't really a plausible reason to suppose it couldn't instill magical knowledge when it is perfectly capable of doing so in other creatures. unlike shapechange, there is no statement that class abilities of a creature that you assume the form of are not gained, either.

you can add in rules to change that if you want to. i would even recommend that you do. it is presumably balanced (inasmuch as CR 12 archmages are balanced), but for a lot of people it is undesirable.

if you have any information available to you beyond just "i feel like it shouldn't be possible, therefore i'm adding a few invisible paragraphs to the spell description and pretending that's the only possible interpretation", feel free to share.

if you want a 10+ page argument on the matter, go dig up the old one and read that. but there's no point in starting a new one unless you can provide actual new information that doesn't just have language that might vaguely imply whatever you want it to mean and presenting that as "proof".

Wrong. Types of creatures are defined on pages 6-7 of the Monster Manual.
Humanoid is a type; per the section on humanoids: "A variety of humanoids appear throughout this book, but the raves detailed in the Player's Handbook-with the exception of drow- are dealt with in appendix B. That appendix gives you a number of stat blocks that you can use to make various members of those races."

There you have it, black and white, those aren't themselves types themselves.

[SharkForce]

Wrong. Types of creatures are defined on pages 6-7 of the Monster Manual.
Humanoid is a type; per the section on humanoids: "A variety of humanoids appear throughout this book, but the raves detailed in the Player's Handbook-with the exception of drow- are dealt with in appendix B. That appendix gives you a number of stat blocks that you can use to make various members of those races."

There you have it, black and white, those aren't themselves types themselves.

sure, and if you had read the spell or caught up on this thread before posting, you would know i had already double-checked the spell and it actually says kinds.

that said, if you interpreted "type" to mean only the types at the start of the monster manual, that would lead to a mind-blowingly stupid interpretation of the spell where you can only turn into a "monstrosity" or a "beast" with absolutely no stats for them whatsoever, because there is no such thing as a generic "monstrosity" or "beast", which should immediately have told you that the interpretation would have been a bad one.

[Vogonjeltz]

sure, and if you had read the spell or caught up on this thread before posting, you would know i had already double-checked the spell and it actually says kinds.

that said, if you interpreted "type" to mean only the types at the start of the monster manual, that would lead to a mind-blowingly stupid interpretation of the spell where you can only turn into a "monstrosity" or a "beast" with absolutely no stats for them whatsoever, because there is no such thing as a generic "monstrosity" or "beast", which should immediately have told you that the interpretation would have been a bad one.

And the NPCs aren't a kind of type, that would be a human or elf, NPCs are things that humans or elves can be.

Type=humanoid
Kind of humanoid=Dwarf, Elf, Human
Roles that humanoids can have=Archmage, Veteran, etcetera

[SharkForce]

And the NPCs aren't a kind of type, that would be a human or elf, NPCs are things that humans or elves can be.

Type=humanoid
Kind of humanoid=Dwarf, Elf, Human
Roles that humanoids can have=Archmage, Veteran, etcetera

there is absolutely nothing about roles in the spell (or really, anywhere in any of the books, in the sense you're talking about, as far as i am aware). there is nothing about "kinds" that inherently tells you "human" is a kind but "archmage" is not. both are kinds of creatures. you can have a group of archmages, you can have a group of humans. there is no objective line that you can point to that would tell you what is or is not acceptable as a "kind" beyond the basic english meaning of the word, which allows for "archmage" or "knight" to be a kind of creature just as readily as "unicorn" or "ancient green dragon".

you can insert things into the spell all you want, but it doesn't change reality. as written, polymorph lets you turn into an archmage. and furthermore, presuming the devs did a halfway-decent job of assigning CR to the archmage, it should not be any more powerful than any other CR 12 creature.

[Vogonjeltz]

there is absolutely nothing about roles in the spell (or really, anywhere in any of the books, in the sense you're talking about, as far as i am aware). there is nothing about "kinds" that inherently tells you "human" is a kind but "archmage" is not. both are kinds of creatures. you can have a group of archmages, you can have a group of humans. there is no objective line that you can point to that would tell you what is or is not acceptable as a "kind" beyond the basic english meaning of the word, which allows for "archmage" or "knight" to be a kind of creature just as readily as "unicorn" or "ancient green dragon".

you can insert things into the spell all you want, but it doesn't change reality. as written, polymorph lets you turn into an archmage. and furthermore, presuming the devs did a halfway-decent job of assigning CR to the archmage, it should not be any more powerful than any other CR 12 creature.

It's not just about the spell, one must also refer to the Monster Manual, and that explains that the appendix b is a bunch of stat blocks that can be applied to humans or other humanoids. That's outside the scope of what true polymorph actually states that the player is deciding, which is the point. Appendix b isn't a type of creature, human is, and a human can be one of the things in appendix B. But TP doesn't give the caster the latitude to decide more than "human".

[SharkForce]

It's not just about the spell, one must also refer to the Monster Manual, and that explains that the appendix b is a bunch of stat blocks that can be applied to humans or other humanoids. That's outside the scope of what true polymorph actually states that the player is deciding, which is the point. Appendix b isn't a type of creature, human is, and a human can be one of the things in appendix B. But TP doesn't give the caster the latitude to decide more than "human".

the monster manual is not a guide to true polymorph, nor does it say that a knight is not a creature. in fact, a knight or an archmage not being a creature would be stupid, because it would mean that a large number of spells that target creatures cannot work on them.

so long as you are not discussing a specific creature (eg "raistlin majere" or "sturm brightblade") an archmage or knight are simply kinds of creatures, just like a half-dragon unicorn is a kind of creature even though half-dragon is just a template you can apply to some other creature.

[KorvinStarmast]

an archmage or knight are simply kinds of creatures, just like a half-dragon unicorn is a kind of creature even though half-dragon is just a template you can apply to some other creature.

FWIW, since "Priest" and "Cult Fanatic" are both generic NPC creatures (with cleric spell abilities) -- as is Archmage (albeit an arcane caster) -- it's not that hard to come up with a cleric/high Priest of a level closer to Archmage than Cult Fanatic is using the previous examples to inform the NPC. (And a peek at Druid NPC would not hurt).

[Shining Wrath]

The PHB lists some creatures in the appendices. If any NPC is eligible to be considered a [kind/type] of monster, then a deity is clearly a variety of NPC, and we know there are "monsters" whose stats are provided elsewhere than the Monster Manual - for example, published adventures. The PHB lists deities without supplying their stats; that's because the game designers never intended you to change yourself into one. Still, if you can turn yourself into an archmage, or even further down the path, into a clone of Bob, the party cleric, then you can turn yourself into Corellon Larethian, but without the eternal enmity of Gruumsh. Which seems pretty broken.

Were I the DM I'd say "No, class levels as such are not part of being a kind or type of monster" and "No, you can't turn yourself into a particular person".

Getting back to the OP, I can see using TP as a solution for a player whose build didn't pan out as well as they hoped. Someone runs Paladin 5 / Sorcerer 5 / Warlock 10 and finds out it's just not as cool as they hoped; party wizard polymorphs them into CR20 Planetar and it's likely an upgrade.

[SharkForce]

"corellon larethian" is not a kind of creature, it is a specific creature.

"a god" or even "an elven god" is probably a kind of creature. naturally, the DM will have to decide the stats on it, but in all likelihood, an actual deity will be of a higher CR than whatever creature you wanted to true polymorph into a deity anyway (avatars may be more within reach, especially for comparatively minor deities. provided, of course, "minor deity" counts as a kind of creature, which it arguably should in many campaign settings).

[Vogonjeltz]

the monster manual is not a guide to true polymorph, nor does it say that a knight is not a creature. in fact, a knight or an archmage not being a creature would be stupid, because it would mean that a large number of spells that target creatures cannot work on them.

so long as you are not discussing a specific creature (eg "raistlin majere" or "sturm brightblade") an archmage or knight are simply kinds of creatures, just like a half-dragon unicorn is a kind of creature even though half-dragon is just a template you can apply to some other creature.

Without the Monster Manual we wouldn't be having this discussion. So if we're evaluating the spell through the optic of what is listed within the Monster Manual than it becomes the guide to what the words in True Polymorph mean.

And the point is that Knight, Archmage, and anything else listed in the NPC appendix aren't themselves the kind of creature they are. Instead they are a Human, who is also a Knight. Archmage isn't a creature by virtue of being an Archmage, but by virtue of being an Elf or whatever. You can just as easily have a Gnoll Archmage as a Human one. Even if we disagree, I want to make sure that my point is clear.

I'm getting to this through a combined reading of True Polymorph (PHB 283-284), Monster Manual on Type (page 7) and Appendix B: Nonplayer Characters (page 342), and the DMG section on Nonplayer characters (DMG 92-93).

Those sections make it fairly clear that the Appendix B stat blocks are not the creatures themselves, but generic things that NPC creatures can be, and any given NPC is a creature of a particular race who then also has those NPC attributes in the same way they might have class levels.

So True Polymorph could turn a character into a Dwarf, but they couldn't turn them into a Dwarf level 20 Druid. Similarly, they could turn them into a Dwarf, but not a Dwarf Archmage.

[Segev]

I believe Vogonjeltz has it right, here. True polymorph's language is clearly discussing changing into creatures, not changing into professions.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, the trouble with Archmage is that it's an NPC statblock, given as an alternative to having to build an X-level caster. Not really a specific kind of creature.

[SharkForce]

that's all very nice, but none of it is in the rules.

you could have a group of archmages, and they would all be creatures and distinct from a group of non-archmages. archmages are a kind of creature. are they the kind of creature the devs were thinking of when they wrote the spell? maybe, maybe not (there's no language to clearly indicate which way they meant it, and they've made other decisions i think were terrible, and it is entirely possible that they didn't ponder this question *at all* when they wrote the spell, and even quite likely that they weren't writing the entire monster manual from the perspective of the true polymorph spell). certainly, there's nothing limiting you from being an arcanoloth, which is a trained wizard, and there are several wizards in the non-NPC section of the monster manual as well. are we to presume that you can become a spellcasting illithid or a drow mage because they're not in the NPC section?

like i said several times, not liking what the spell says it does is a great reason to houserule it to work the way you want it to work.

it is not a good reason to insist that the book says something different from what it says.

[Segev]

By that logic, "Humans in full plate" are creatures, too, so you can polymorph into creatures in specific gear.

[Spacehamster]

Well I would say that when you as a dragon turn into a creature of your original race you would turn into the character you were before true polymorphing. :)

[Segev]

Well I would say that when you as a dragon turn into a creature of your original race you would turn into the character you were before true polymorphing. :)

Using the dragon's ability, you couldn't, because your dragon shapeshifting excludes class abilities.

[SharkForce]

By that logic, "Humans in full plate" are creatures, too, so you can polymorph into creatures in specific gear.

provided your DM agrees that true polymorph includes equipment (nothing in the spell clearly indicates one way or the other, strictly speaking, but it's fairly clear that armour is not a creature), yes. "humans in full plate" would be a kind of creature.

[Segev]

provided your DM agrees that true polymorph includes equipment (nothing in the spell clearly indicates one way or the other, strictly speaking, but it's fairly clear that armour is not a creature), yes. "humans in full plate" would be a kind of creature.

No "provided" about it. If "a human who is an archmage" is a creature, so is "a human wearing plate mail."

[Shining Wrath]

Since the MM NPC blocks also include gear, we now have a way to create wealth; find the NPC with the best "kit" (does the archmage come with an implied spell book containing at a minimum the listed spells?), True Polymorph the fighter into that creature, take off the kit, sell it.

Probably not that good for a 17+ character unless the archmage does have a spell book; in that case, a high level wizard's book is worth thousands or tens of thousands of gold.

And if there's ever an NPC listed who has a magical item, or spells that are difficult to find - hey! TP the fighter into one of those, have them write out the spells into your book, score!

You may do as you wish, of course, but I believe RAI preclude turning yourself into an NPC. And much less turning yourself into a particular NPC, e.g., "I want to be King Rudolph".

[Vogonjeltz]

that's all very nice, but none of it is in the rules.

I don't understand your meaning. Are you saying these aren't in the books? That they aren't rules?

"True Polymorph (PHB 283-284), Monster Manual on Type (page 7) and Appendix B: Nonplayer Characters (page 342), and the DMG section on Nonplayer characters (DMG 92-93)."

[Zalabim]

Probably not that good for a 17+ character unless the archmage does have a spell book; in that case, a high level wizard's book is worth thousands or tens of thousands of gold.

A wizard's spellbook isn't intrinsically valuable to anyone but the wizard it belongs to. Others can use it as a source to scribe a spell, but it doesn't have any use beyond access to learning the spell. You can't reduce the cost for learning a new spell with it, for example.

[Gwendol]

You don't have to research it...

[Segev]

A wizard's spellbook isn't intrinsically valuable to anyone but the wizard it belongs to. Others can use it as a source to scribe a spell, but it doesn't have any use beyond access to learning the spell. You can't reduce the cost for learning a new spell with it, for example.

If you don't see how a slew of spells you can unquestionably scribe into your spellbook is valuable, I don't know what kind of game you're playing. I've never played in one where it was trivial to get ahold of any old spell I wanted to.

[SharkForce]

No "provided" about it. If "a human who is an archmage" is a creature, so is "a human wearing plate mail."

humans wearing plate mail are definitely a kind of creature. the question is whether polymorphing a creature comes with their equipment. you can unquestionably true polymorph a rock (or whatever) into a human knight (which is a human capable of wearing plate mail). the spell never explicitly states you get the equipment of whatever you turn into though. that part, at least, is fully in your DM's hands, because there is no rule. so "a human wearing plate mail" might be an acceptable kind of human, but you still might not get the plate mail (that said, if you're looking for cheesy things to do with true polymorph and creating equipment, you needn't bother the NPCs; there are a variety of fiends and celestials, and probably a few other creatures, that carry around magical weapons that are far more interesting than some lame suit of armour you could have crafted with fabricate and scrap metal from that time you fought a really big group of kobolds, or even just buying a few iron pots and some charcoal).


I don't understand your meaning. Are you saying these aren't in the books? That they aren't rules?

"True Polymorph (PHB 283-284), Monster Manual on Type (page 7) and Appendix B: Nonplayer Characters (page 342), and the DMG section on Nonplayer characters (DMG 92-93)."

none of that says that true polymorph is only referring to monsters not in the NPC section. it especially doesn't say that it is only referring to types of monsters as defined in the MM, because otherwise it would mean you could only polymorph into, say, a beast (of unspecified stats since there are no stats for a generic undefined beast) and not a mastiff or a lion or a giant poisonous snake.

true polymorph doesn't tell us to go look at the type section of the monster manual. it just says you can turn into various kinds of creatures. it doesn't specify what does or doesn't count as a kind. i don't know WHY you're asking this, though, since i've already explained that to you several times.

you can want the rules to say whatever you want. you can change them in your games. none of that alters what it actually says in the book.

so, all of that stuff you said is all very nice. but it doesn't mean the spell doesn't say what the spell says.

[RickAllison]

No "provided" about it. If "a human who is an archmage" is a creature, so is "a human wearing plate mail."

"Ask and ye shall receive!"

You see the terrible fruit of your spell, a suit of Animated Armor wearing the skin of a human.

[Segev]

"Ask and ye shall receive!"

You see the terrible fruit of your spell, a suit of Animated Armor wearing the skin of a human.

Punctuation - or in this case, its lack - saves lives! I didn't say, "a human-wearing plate mail." :smalltongue:



You know, I think we're probably overthinking this. I don't doubt that it's intended for true polymorph to come with equipment iconic to the creature into which you're turning something. This is probably one of those areas where it's best to just tell the DM to be creative in punishing abuse of it.

Heck, if you don't let it become permanent, perhaps the plate mail you took from the knight turns back into stone, in a random configuration based on what part of the original boulder you turned into a knight the plate mail came from. If you do make it permanent, that knight is probably a bit angry at you for stealing his plate mail, once he's no longer magically friendly to you.

Abuse with an Archmage is harder to stop, but at best you can probably arrange it so that every Archmage the caster creates has no more spells than are given in the MM...and at meanest, it has no spells not in the caster's own spellbook.

[RickAllison]

Punctuation - or in this case, its lack - saves lives! I didn't say, "a human-wearing plate mail." :smalltongue:



You know, I think we're probably overthinking this. I don't doubt that it's intended for true polymorph to come with equipment iconic to the creature into which you're turning something. This is probably one of those areas where it's best to just tell the DM to be creative in punishing abuse of it.

Heck, if you don't let it become permanent, perhaps the plate mail you took from the knight turns back into stone, in a random configuration based on what part of the original boulder you turned into a knight the plate mail came from. If you do make it permanent, that knight is probably a bit angry at you for stealing his plate mail, once he's no longer magically friendly to you.

Abuse with an Archmage is harder to stop, but at best you can probably arrange it so that every Archmage the caster creates has no more spells than are given in the MM...and at meanest, it has no spells not in the caster's own spellbook.

But verbally, it can be misconstrued!! A human-wearing plate mail and a human wearing plate mail would be equivalent to a sadistic genie :smallwink:

[Segev]

But verbally, it can be misconstrued!! A human-wearing plate mail and a human wearing plate mail would be equivalent to a sadistic genie :smallwink:

A literal genie is handled by writing down the wish, if needs be. A sadistic genie (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JackassGenie) (if the URL doesn't work, replace the three astrisks which might have been filtered in with the synonym for "donkey") will screw you over no matter what wish you make, so worrying about a poorly-worded wish is a waste of time.

[Vogonjeltz]

none of that says that true polymorph is only referring to monsters not in the NPC section. it especially doesn't say that it is only referring to types of monsters as defined in the MM, because otherwise it would mean you could only polymorph into, say, a beast (of unspecified stats since there are no stats for a generic undefined beast) and not a mastiff or a lion or a giant poisonous snake.

true polymorph doesn't tell us to go look at the type section of the monster manual. it just says you can turn into various kinds of creatures. it doesn't specify what does or doesn't count as a kind. i don't know WHY you're asking this, though, since i've already explained that to you several times.

you can want the rules to say whatever you want. you can change them in your games. none of that alters what it actually says in the book.

so, all of that stuff you said is all very nice. but it doesn't mean the spell doesn't say what the spell says.

It says that the NPC section aren't themselves the kinds of monsters. They're basically templates that can be applied to the races (monsters) in the PHB.

The Beasts are in a different appendix which doesn't contain the same language. It's not analogous.

I asked it because you said none of this was in the rules. Those sections show that the argument I made (The non-player character appendix stat blocks aren't creatures in and of themselves, but rather overlays on the creatures (races) found in the PHB; and thus aren't eligible choices of true polymorph) is entirely founded within the rules. So, long story short (too late!) I was asking why you thought what you said.

I didn't change any rules, I just referred to a bunch of them that are located in different parts of different books. It's complex, yes, but that doesn't mean it isn't written down in the books.

[Zalabim]

If you don't see how a slew of spells you can unquestionably scribe into your spellbook is valuable, I don't know what kind of game you're playing. I've never played in one where it was trivial to get ahold of any old spell I wanted to.

It has a value and a use to a wizard, but that value is not the same as the cost it took to make the book in the first place, and probably not in the realm of tens of thousands of gp.