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View Full Version : Is it me, or is the Oriental Adventures/Kara Tur setting’s religious system a mess?



Clistenes
2016-04-27, 03:35 PM
Let take a look at the information we are given:

If we take a look at what is said in the Planescape and Spelljammer settings, Kara Tur’s dominant religion is the Celestial Bureaucracy, which is kinda a regular pantheon save for having a strict bureaucratic organization. Its priests tend to be generic pantheon clerics who worship the whole pantheon rather than specialty priests focused on a single deity. People (clerics included) pray to all gods, calling each of them when their special talents are required for a task.

That sounds reasonable. The Shou-lung/Kara-Tur deities are extremely lawful, and keep a strictly organized, tightly run divine bureoucracy. Each god is given a task, and interacts with mortals not in a personal way, but as a divine official or clerk.

But when we read a description of Kara-Tur's religious life, we get this:

First edition supplement Kara-Tur,The Eastern Realms mentions:

Monks, who “seek to create a perfect union between mind and body through the practice of meditation and fighting skills”. Monks live and train in monasteries. They don’t get spells. They get their powers from their own physical and mental development, not from external divine sources. They don’t seem to fulfil any function as intermediaries between the supernatural and common people, but they basically run the religious life in Kara-Tur anyways.

Shukenja who “are wandering holy men. They act as teachers, advisors, and healers to whoever needs their aid. They are respected by all for their devotion and magical abilities”. They get spells and follow a religion, but this isn’t elaborated upon. They don’t seem to live in monasteries or temples, but to wander around. They also get some monkish (ki) training.

Sohei, who “are warrior priests, though more warrior than priest. They protect monasteries from attacks and extend the monasteries' political claims. Sohei have limited magical ability”. They are basically Fighter-Monk-Clerics who are associated to a religion and get divine spells from some higher power. Their function is to protect monasteries, which is weird, because the monasteries aren’t inhabited by clerics, but by monks who are even more martial focused than Sohei are (Monks don’t pray for spells).

Wu Jen, who “are sorcerors and magicians. They usually live as hermits in remote areas, and are greatly feared and respected for their powers”. Despite being arcane casters, they seem to be linked to religion or philosophy: They follow a moral code that requires them to cut ties with their family and eschew a position in society and live as hermits, and they acquire taboos they have to respect, some of which are clearly religious in nature.

No mention of regular temples and clerics.

In Shou-lung (Fantasy China) they have the Shou-ling Tao/Path of Enlightment, the Chung Tao/The Way and the worship of the Nine Travelers.

The Path of Enlightment/ Shou-ling Tao, the main faith in Shou lung and the state religion of the Empire, is described as being made mostly of Monks and Soheis. They live in temples (staffed by priests and sohei) and monasteries (staffed by monks) dedicated to one or more of the Nine Immortals and sometimes to other deities. There is mention of priests living in the temples, but not of what class those priests are (they could be Monks, or they could be NPCs). All mentioned monasteries and orders seem to be made mostly of Monks, who focus a lot on martial arts.

The Path of Enlightenment espouses a written code of beliefs and actions, handed down from Heaven by the Celestial Emperor. Priests of the Path (Shou-ling Tao), live together in huge temples and monasteries. Here they study teachings concerning the nature of the Path, as well as martial and healing arts, reading and writing. These monks can be easily recognized by their flowing red robes and shaven heads. While most are removed from the world, choosing to turn away from riches, fame and romantic companionship, this varies from order to order.

The Path of Enlightenment is conveniently oriented to serve the wishes of the Imperial Family. It encourages fealty and obedience to one’s lord, veneration of the past (including past emperors), and those who teach and guard the path. It’s very nature deifies the person of the Emperor, elevating him to the very side of the Celestial One in importance, and conferring upon him a secret animal name upon his death. The Emperor has the right to speak directly to the Immortals as an equal, as well as to call upon the spirits of the Ancestral Emperors. The Path of Enlightment manages most of the worship to the Celestial Bureaucracy. The Path of Enlightment seem to be a mix of Buddhism and Confucianism.

The priests of The Way / Chung Tao are wandering Shukenjas (dang-ki priests) or Wu Jen hermits, who remain mostly aloof. The Way is a religion of nature and metaphysics which denies that true faith can be taught in books. Priests of the Way (Chung Hsiang Tao) are solitary souls, who travel the lands seeking knowledge through nature. Chung Tao priests are considered to be more wizards than clerics, for the deeper mysteries of their faith give them sorcerous control over the forces of the material world (these men are actually wu jen). Although in theory, the Way is a truly neutral faith, in reality there are two alignments of Cheng Tao priests—those of the Dark Way (using their powers for personal gain) and those of the Light Way (using their powers for the good of others).

The Way is much more of a philosophy than a religion, because its adherents believe that the true nature of the Way is unknowable. It’s shrines are more like hermitages, and its very few temples organized as monasteries or schools, teaching a wide variety of subjects. The Way states that all things in the Celestial Universe affect and are affected by all others. There is no Good, Evil, Law or Chaos— only the forces of the Universe, which may be manipulated as desired. The proper student of the Way thus recognizes this and strives to know the proper way in which to use these forces.
A Chung Tao priest is actually something more of a wizard than a monk or scholar, and both dang-ki (shukenja) and wu jen may be followers of the Way. Powerful positions within the faith are occupied by mages or sorcerers more often than priests, and indeed, many of the great wu jen of history have been Chung Tao priests as well.
The use of power is often the subject of debate, and so it is among the Chung Tao priests. In the earliest days of the Empire, this caused a great rift in the unified faith, with two main temple emerging from the chaos. One group, known as the Black Chung Tao, believe that the superior man has a duty to shape the universe to his ends; directing the unenlightened of the Earth to a higher goal. The second group, known as the White Chung Tao, believe that there are no superior men, only enlightened, ones, and that the proper observance of the Way is in maintaining the natural balance of events. The two sects are distinguished by an identifying mark worn on the chest or sewn on the garments. This symbol, representing the concept of Yin and Yang, is a circle with one half black and one half white. Within the center of each area is a small dot of the opposing color, symbolizing that each half is partially composed of the other. Among Black Chung Tao, the black side is uppermost among Whites, the white side is uppermost.
In secret, these two forces have been battling for control of the Empire (and thus the material world) for the last 2,000 years. In some dynasties, the Black Chung are deposed from the favor of the court; in others, it is the White. Both use powerful sorceries and servants to win ascendancy. It is not unknown for the Black Chung Tao to employ assassination, illusion and even demons to overthrow dynasties which have thwarted them.
In this, they are opposed by the White Chung Tao, who use their powers to subtly influence events and support the balance. At present, the White Chung Tao are ascendant and enjoy the favor of the Imperial Family, but it is rumored that the Black Chung Tao are already plotting a major challenge.
This religion seem to be mostly a form of Daoism.

The Faith of the Nine Travelers is probably the oldest faith in Shou Lung; popular among the lower classes. Yet, for all of this, it is probably the weakest, having almost no temples or organized priesthood (there is no mention of which class those priests would be). It’s power comes from the fact that it is extremely popular among the mandarinate, for its basic tenet is that even the lowliest commoner can become a ruler of men. As the mandarinate became the ruling party of the bureaucracy, this faith was promoted to establish their position of rulership, so that by the mid Kao Dynasty, a great deal of work had been written on the subject.
This was opposed somewhat by the nobility, who recognized a political threat when they observed one.
The Nine Travelers faith considers the Nine to be immensely powerful beings of the Celestial Bureaucracy, and in this, they may have approached closer to the truth than any other religion. They consider Heaven to be a vast mirror of the Empire below, with a Celestial Government, Bureaucracy, and Emperor (all of which is true, actually). They err in arguing which of the Nine is the leader, but in all other things, they are quite correct.
One way in which the mandarinate has reinforced its claims upon the bureaucracy is by legitimizing the Book of Heaven. This four-volume work is heavily based upon the concepts of the Path, but refers to these within the context of the Nine Travelers’s reigns. The mandarinate has made knowledge of the Book of Heaven an important part of the civil service examination.
Often, miraculous events (such as the appearances of the Chu Jen Yin, or Giants in Gray) are attributed to actions of the Nine. Because the mandarinate has a vested interest in the promotion of this faith, they immediately call out a Board of Inquiry for each event, compiling vast scrolls of information and “not proven” and “possible” verdicts. It is somewhat ironic that this “faith of clerks” may well be the most accurate depiction of the Celestial Empire man has ever devised, yet suffers from disbelief simply because it is so mundane in aspect.
This religion seem to be based on Chinese folk religion, traditional polytheism and Confucianism.

In Korazura (Fantasy Japan) they have the Eight Million Gods and the Way of Enlightment.

Eight Million Gods: This ancient religion is a collection of beliefs and rituals that relate to various nature deities. There is no great teacher or book for the Eight Million Gods, nor uniform rituals of worship. Observances vary from deity to deity and shrine to shrine.
Shrines dedicated to the Eight Million Gods fall into two categories—first shrines and normal shrines.
First shrines have been officially recognized and supported by the emperor and other nobles for centuries. They are often located in the old districts of cities and provincial capitals, and are larger and more powerful than other shrines. Many establish branches in other provinces to promote their particular beliefs and acquire a larger economic base of support.
Normal shrines are often built and supported by local peasantry. They may commemorate past events, ensure good harvests, ward off evil influences, or even appease powerful evil beings. Local nobility also support shrines, particularly in towns or villages near their homes.
Regardless of the type, most shrines are independent and unrelated to others. They are usually associated with a site of natural beauty or legendary significance, and may be found on the slopes of major mountains, along river banks, by the sea, or hidden away in forests. Many important shrines are dedicated to the sun goddess and the emperor, who is believed to be of divine ancestry.
Worship at these places often consists of ritual purification, offerings of food or donations of money, and prayers. At least once a year major shrines have more elaborate festivals, involving sacred dances, bonfires, and processions through the streets. This religion is mostly Fantasy Shinto.

The Way of Enlightenment was brought to Kozakura by Shou Lung priests in the year 462, during the reign of the Emperor Shotoken in the Eighth Cycle, and is almost identical to the Path of Enlightenment practiced in Shou Lung. This well-organized religion draws lessons from the life and speeches of its great teacher in an effort to guide men to spiritual perfection.
This religion is divided into three main schools of belief in Kozakura.
Toro-dai is the most popular school. To attain spiritual elevation under these teachings, a believer need only repeat a single verse over and over. The power of the mystical chant eventually bestows enlightenment. Torodai is very popular with common folk, since it is an easy teaching to follow (this is mostly Pure Land Buddhism)
Kanchai reveals to its followers an elaborate structure of invisible spirit creatures, some good and some evil. These creatures seek to help or harm, according to their natures. Worshipers hope to gain the favor of good spirits and avoid the wrath of evil ones. The Kanchai school draws freely upon the ideas and beliefs of the Eight Million Gods, sharing many of the same deities, spirits, and fantastic creatures (this is kinda Shinbutsu-shūgō, a mix of Shinto and Buddhism).
Konjo is the highly esoteric third school of the Way of Enlightenment. This school uses the strict methods of meditation and contemplation to show that material things are only passing illusions that will change and decay. What matters is the strength of the person’s spirit. This school is very popular with samurai and the ruling lords, much of whose thinking is influenced by the Konjo school. Of all schools, it is the most difficult to follow and most true to the original intention of the Way of Enlightenment (this is mostly Zen Buddhism).

Each school is a nation-wide organization, encouraging worship in temples built to venerate a specific deity or group of deities. A temple is almost always associated with a particular school, and
is often built on a site which has special religious significance to that school. If a site has meaning to several schools, there may be several different temples clustered around it. It is acceptable for the same deity to appear in two different temples, sponsored by different schools of the Way of Enlightenment.
The temples of Kozakura and the schools which sponsor them represent a powerful political force. The main temple of each school, located in the capital of Dojyu, ensures that the sect is represented in the affairs of the court. Provincial temples representing that school are branches of the one in the capital, contributing
taxes to the order and giving the main temple a broad power base . Smaller so-called “subscription” temples represent the interests of the provincial temple throughout a province, collecting donations in their turn and providing sohei when called upon for support.
Monasteries are also associated with each school. Generally built in secluded places, they are centers of training and religious instruction. Many are merely meditative centers, while others incorporate harsh training in the martial arts, producing the monk character class. Where a monastery is located in more peaceful surroundings, emperors, nobles, noble widows, and samurai find it fashionable to retire to monasteries when they grow tired of the physical world. This retirement may be permanent, but many a retired warrior or statesman has returned to the world when needed by family, emperor, or cause.

Besides those two religions, there are also a number of hermits or religious recluses who live in the forests and mountains of Kozakura. These persons have cut themselves off from the rest of the world and do their utmost to avoid discovery. In their lonely mountain huts and caves, they put themselves through grueling trials to purify their minds and bodies. These hardships cleanse their minds, enabling them to rise above pain and desire. After long periods of such cleansing, hermits may reach an enlightened state. Some of these few come down from the mountains to found new schools or shrines that are based on the enlightenment they have received. They may also reveal new styles of martial arts as part of their teachings. Hermits are rare and hard to find, but sometimes take pupils to train in their esoteric beliefs.

There is barely any information on what classes the priesthood of any of Korazura’s religions are, but I guess the Way of Enlightenment relies mostly on Monks and Soheis, and the Eight Million Gods on Shukenjas.

In Wa (Fantasy Japan II) they have the Path of Enlightment, the Faith of the Nine Travellers and the Eight Million Gods.

Now, it’s not difficult to see that there is something off here:

There is a real, highly hierarchical Celestial Bureaucracy, but that Celestial Bureaucracy lacks a link to the Terrestrial Bureaucracy below. Organized religion is for the most part in the hands of Monks, who are people who have mastered their own inner strength through hard training and learned to punch stuff really hard, but lack any divine connection. And the guys who actually have some degree of connection to the Divine among them (Sohei) serve as soldiers under the Monks, which is kinda redundant, since about the only thing Monks are good for is to kill people with their bare hands.

There are guys who have a strong connection to the Divine, who can resurrect or reincarnate the dead, commune with the spirits, Plane Shift to the Upper Planes… etc., the Shukenja, but those tend to be members of The Way, a non theistic philosophy, instead of managing the organized religion… what is more, within the structure of The Way, they tend to rank below the Wu Jens!

Apparently, being able to punch a man’s brain out of his skull makes you a better priest than the ability to speak with your gods or even to travel to their homes…

As for the guys who actually have it right, who know about the Celestial Bureaucracy and believe the right stuff, they are the members of the Faith of the Nine Travellers… and they have no priesthood or any form of religious organization at all.

Third Edition focuses mostly in Fantasy Japan (Rokugan).

The Oriental Adventures supplement describes four main religious classes: Monk, Sohei, Shugenja and Shaman.

The Monk and the Sohei are for the most part still the same as in previous editions.

The Shukenja of old has been replaced by the Shugenja and the Shaman.

The Shaman is the one who is most similar to the old Shukenja. It is a wisdom-based priest with some martial arts skills who gets its power from its connection to the spirits of nature and the souls of the ancestors. The Shaman mostly serves the needs of the common people, and it does it well. There aren’t Shamans in Rokugan, so I guess they are supposed to take the role of the old wandering Shukenjas of Shou-lung.

The Shugenja is basically a charisma-based elemental-flavoured divine sorcerer who serves the high castes of Rokugan as scholar, advisor and priest. I guess they could take the role of priests of The Way/Chung Tao in Shou-lung, since their magic is strongly elemental in nature, like the old Wu Jens. They can make good magic artillery OR good healbots (and decent diviners), but not both at the same time. They resemble a mix of Shinto priests and Onmyōdō practitioners.

The Legend of the Five Rings setting elaborates more on Rokugan’s religion: It is a mix of Fortunism (worship of the gods and spirits, managed by Shugenjas), Shinseism (path of self-development and enlightenment, followed by Monks) and Ancestor worship (practiced mostly by the high castes; common people appease the dead, but they don’t worship them).


This version avoids putting the organized religion in the hands of Monks, making them practitioners of a path of inner discovery and enlightenment, which is way better than the way Monks were portrayed in First edition.

Still, nothing about the Shugenjas suggests that they could be good at their job: they are charisma-based, so intelligence and wisdom usually aren’t their highest stats (so they aren’t ideal scholars and advisors), their spell list is limited, and they lack any ability to communicate with the Divine. All their class abilities are focused on the elements. The Shamans would be WAY better at their job as priests and advisors than they are. Rokugani people are divinely undeveloped.

Yeah, I understand the Shugenjas were made the way they are so they wouldn't control Rokugan, allowing a kinda Japanese-ish feudal society to exist, but since the gods are explicitly real, and there are people who have the power to communicate with the spirits, celestial beings...etc., why can't the gods of Rokugan just recruit some Shamans (or Clerics)?

I dunno... maybe the gods of Rokugan don't care commucating with the mortals? But even if that's true, what about all those spirits who dwell around/among mortals and are worshipped by the people of Rokugan?

sktarq
2016-04-27, 06:22 PM
Well in Rokugan it is a setting where the relationship between the mortals and divine is just different than a Greyhawk based eurocentric setting. Like Ravenloft and Darksun have different mortal/divine issues.

KaraTur-well since you can walk over to the Temple of Set for example from Kara Tur why the gods of Star Sea region couldn't pop an avatar an use divine magic gifted clerics to create a political movement that can display divine backing seems odd since they would be at a competitive advantage since the CB has declined to do so.

Anonymouswizard
2016-04-27, 06:59 PM
This version avoids putting the organized religion in the hands of Monks, making them practitioners of a path of inner discovery and enlightenment, which is way better than the way Monks were portrayed in First edition.

Eh, it would work if you included scholar Monks (use Cleric template) as well as the stereotypical 'martial artist' Monks.


Still, nothing about the Shugenjas suggests that they could be good at their job: they are charisma-based, so intelligence and wisdom usually aren’t their highest stats (so they aren’t ideal scholars and advisors), their spell list is limited, and they lack any ability to communicate with the Divine. All their class abilities are focused on the elements. The Shamans would be WAY better at their job as priests and advisors than they are. Rokugani people are divinely undeveloped.

Yeah, I understand the Shugenjas were made the way they are so they wouldn't control Rokugan, allowing a kinda Japanese-ish feudal society to exist, but since the gods are explicitly real, and there are people who have the power to communicate with the spirits, celestial beings...etc., why can't the gods of Rokugan just recruit some Shamans (or Clerics)?

First, Rokugan was made for a different system, where your choices were:
Bushi (warriors)
Courtiers (faces)
Shugenja (mages)

The Shugenja can commune with the Elemental Kami that inhabit Rokugan, and pray to them to cast spells. They also cared about all the stats, a Shugenja is likely intelligent, perceptive, and stubborn.


I dunno... maybe the gods of Rokugan don't care commucating with the mortals? But even if that's true, what about all those spirits who dwell around/among mortals and are worshipped by the people of Rokugan?

Yes and no? The gods don't grant magic, except for all those Elemental Kami. The only magic Rokugani have access to is Shugenja and Maho, no 'divine spellcasters' here (or in many settings, where all magic is magic).

Tiktakkat
2016-04-27, 10:10 PM
Well, yeah, of course there is something off.

First, you have five radically different base faiths that are being uses as inspiration - Buddhism, Confucianism, Shintoism, Taoism, and the Chinese Celestial Bureaucracy.
Compounding their core differences from western religion is the degree of cross-over between the faiths, with various sects of each using elements of others, making them even more difficult to portray.

Second, you have classes based in distinct cultures related to those faiths, made to serve as generic representations.
Compounding that is one of them having more in common with HKAT and 18-20th century interpretations than with the actual classical function (the monk).

Third, you have a profoundly different cultural base overall, that is seriously opaque to most "traditional" fantasy gaming. (Which itself is a kludge of Greek and Norse with some Anglo-Saxon, overlaid on a mish-mash of 10th and 15th (but not really 11th-14th century) pseudo-feudalism of convenience.)
Compounding that is a predilection for cultural fanboyism predicated on conventional wisdom, rather than scholarship and engagement.

Fourth, you are referencing two completely different settings. Kara-Tur is not Rokugan. Trying to reconcile them is never going to work.

Faily
2016-04-27, 11:26 PM
Ok, first of all, Kara-Tur, Oriental Adventures and Rokugan are not the same settings.
Kara-Tur exists in the same world as Forgotten Realms.
Oriental Adventures was a "how to play with samurai and magical warrior monks in your D&D" with Rokugan tossed in because that was at the time Legend of the Five Rings were going into the whole OGL of 3ed D&D and were opening up to a bigger market (selling their dual-mechanic books).
Which leads us to Rokugan. Which exists in another entirely different setting than Kara-Tur.

Rokugan's mythology is a mix-n-mash of various other sources, including Japanese, Chinese, and Greek. Probably a few others too, because it's a serious hodge-podge there. And shugenja, who commune with the mikokami, spirits that embody everything in the universe from rivers, clouds, rocks, fireplaces, etc, are the priests of that world, the clerics, if you would. Shamans do not exist in Rokugan.

Basically, the Celestial Order of the Rokugan-setting is like so:
Lady Sun and Lord Moon
The Kami, children of Sun and Moon
The Seven Fortunes
The lesser Fortunes
The Mikokami

There's also the whole caste system in the Celestial Order, but that's not the important bit.

Rokugan draws *a lot* from Japan in that it's religion is a collection of different beliefs that has come together. Before the founding Kami arrived and created the Empire, humans worshipped the Fortunes. Then the Kami brought full on worship of Sun and Moon (and to a degree, themselves), and early in the Empire Shinseism was introduced to the Empire by The Little Teacher, Shinsei, whose wisdom saved Rokugan from what seemed to be certain doom.

The worship of all these three branches of Rokugani religion is practiced by nearly everyone in the Empire, the only glaring exception being the Lion Clan and Shinseism not seeing eye-to-eye completely (but still being respected, because the Emperor said Shinsei was right and Akodo, the Lion Clan Kami, would not say the Emperor was wrong).

Also, since Charisma is also considered to be the "will of personality"-stat in D&D, the d20 version of L5R's shugenja uses Charisma, to show they just have that extra something that makes the mikokami listen to them, considering that shugenja are considered very rare in Rokugan. Magic of Rokugan introduced the variant rule of aligning casting-stat to a corresponding elemental ability score; Fire shugenja would use Intelligence, Water use Wisdom, Air use Charisma, Earth use Constitution. This better reflected the original system for the L5R Shugenja.


(I'm probably gonna get back to this later when I got more time)

BWR
2016-04-27, 11:28 PM
Well, yeah, of course there is something off.

First, you have five radically different base faiths that are being uses as inspiration - Buddhism, Confucianism, Shintoism, Taoism, and the Chinese Celestial Bureaucracy.
Compounding their core differences from western religion is the degree of cross-over between the faiths, with various sects of each using elements of others, making them even more difficult to portray.

Second, you have classes based in distinct cultures related to those faiths, made to serve as generic representations.
Compounding that is one of them having more in common with HKAT and 18-20th century interpretations than with the actual classical function (the monk).

Third, you have a profoundly different cultural base overall, that is seriously opaque to most "traditional" fantasy gaming. (Which itself is a kludge of Greek and Norse with some Anglo-Saxon, overlaid on a mish-mash of 10th and 15th (but not really 11th-14th century) pseudo-feudalism of convenience.)
Compounding that is a predilection for cultural fanboyism predicated on conventional wisdom, rather than scholarship and engagement.

Fourth, you are referencing two completely different settings. Kara-Tur is not Rokugan. Trying to reconcile them is never going to work.


This.
First edition OA is entirely separate from both Kara-Tur and Rokugan, too.

Slight correction regarding Rokugan: monks are the fourth general character class (and in some editions ninja are the fifth). The gods do on some occasions grant spells (spells like Fist of Osano-wo are often considered to be granted by that god rather than being a purely elemental effect) or have been known to directly interfere. The elemental magic is considered divine magic in the setting and shugenja are literally priests and serve as intermediaries between the elementals and humanity as well as between the gods and humanity. The elemental kami are alien in mind-set and don't really care for humanity as such though they can be entreated to help, resulting in spell effects, and often enjoy the presence of people, which is the defining feature of shugenja. They aren't really worshipped as such though people usually treat them with respect. They don't care about the human interpretation of the Celestial Order and apart from asking for some weird favors now and then don't expect humans to do much of anything for them. Humans worship the Fortunes (gods) the Kami (the Chlidren of Sun and Moon - to make it extra confusing: the Kami are not kami) because these beings actually set rules and can answer prayers directly (though rarely). The Empire also follows the teachings of Shinsei (not-Buddha), with all the variation of approach you can find in real world Buddhism, from emulation to actual worship. Then you have the Dragons, not the Dragon clan but superpowerful embodiments of aspects of reality like the elements or the Heavens, which can directly grant spells to a few chosen individuals and sometimes get involved with mundane affairs. These are rarely directly worshipped by the masses but are acknowledged as being high up the religious totem pole.

Rokugani also have some minor traditions of 'weird' magic, primarily brought in from outside by the Unicorn, as well as some outliers and clan secrets of other clans (the Shadow brands of the Scorpion are one such, the less said about that the better).
Monks play a rather weird role in Rokugani society. They are religious figures but they aren't priests and can be either Shinseiist or Fortunist (god-worshipping and/or animist - something ala Celestial Bureaucracy and/or Shinto). They sometimes perform priestly functions like blessing things. They often have some ki-based powers (kiho) to distinguish them from shugenja and their spells, but shugenja can also learn kiho.

Clistenes
2016-04-28, 04:32 PM
Well, yeah, of course there is something off.

First, you have five radically different base faiths that are being uses as inspiration - Buddhism, Confucianism, Shintoism, Taoism, and the Chinese Celestial Bureaucracy.
Compounding their core differences from western religion is the degree of cross-over between the faiths, with various sects of each using elements of others, making them even more difficult to portray.

Yes, that's true. The way they try to combine Buddhism and Confucianism into the Path of Enlightnement is particularly awkward.

But the really awkward part is to try to reconcile how those religions work with a setting in which the gods can communicate directly with mortals and appoint divinely empowered representatives.


Fourth, you are referencing two completely different settings. Kara-Tur is not Rokugan. Trying to reconcile them is never going to work.

Yes, they are different settings, and that's why I have referenced them separatedly. Both of them have their own set of issues.


Well in Rokugan it is a setting where the relationship between the mortals and divine is just different than a Greyhawk based eurocentric setting. Like Ravenloft and Darksun have different mortal/divine issues.

The rules introduced introduced in the Oriental Adventures supplement where explicitly intended to be used in Rokugan, and Shamans do exist in that world. The Kitsu family of the Lion clan has Shamans. Why aren't those divine specialist more popular, when they have a spell list and class abilities better suited than Shuganja's?


KaraTur-well since you can walk over to the Temple of Set for example from Kara Tur why the gods of Star Sea region couldn't pop an avatar an use divine magic gifted clerics to create a political movement that can display divine backing seems odd since they would be at a competitive advantage since the CB has declined to do so.

Actually, the priesthood of Chauntea is trying to introduce itself into Wa, but they are persecuted.

Anonymouswizard
2016-04-28, 05:36 PM
The rules introduced introduced in the Oriental Adventures supplement where explicitly intended to be used in Rokugan, and Shamans do exist in that world. The Kitsu family of the Lion clan has Shamans. Why aren't those divine specialist more popular, when they have a spell list and class abilities better suited than Shuganja's?

The Kitsu? The family that runs the primary Lion Shugenja school? (L5R 4e corebook, page 117, Kitsu Shugenja School, Water Affinity/Fire Deficiency.) one of the Great Clans practice magic apart from Shugenja spellcasting, except possibly the Dragon and definitely the Unicorn. There's Maho, but that doesn't really fit with D&D, and I don't know anything of the foreign magic the Unicorn might have since I started at 4e and only have the core.

Again, Rokugan is designed for a different game and is being shoved into the D&D mold with OA. Samurai are rather diverse in L5R, a Hida Bushi is different to a Bayushi Bushi, who are both different to an Asako Loremaster, and all 3 are very different to a Tamori Shugenja. The religion actually works well in L5R where you can't say 'why aren't there clerics' because the closest thing to a Cleric is a Shugenja (and the only gods involved in spellcasting are the minor Elemental Kami [not to be confused with the Kami who founded Rokugan]). The religion and class relationship will feel weird if running Rokugan in D&D, but then again D&D fighters begin squisher than L5R characters but soon become much tougher than most.

raygun goth
2016-04-28, 06:01 PM
The rules introduced introduced in the Oriental Adventures supplement where explicitly intended to be used in Rokugan, and Shamans do exist in that world. The Kitsu family of the Lion clan has Shamans. Why aren't those divine specialist more popular, when they have a spell list and class abilities better suited than Shuganja's?

They do have "shamans," sort of.

Shugenja magic in Rokugan is done by contacting the kami, something that only certain people can do due to the fact that they're part god.

"Shamans" are just the jury-rigged attempt by some nonhuman creatures (or particularly blasphemous humans) to pretend at this kind of magic. They also require some pretty weird taboos - Nezumi shamans, as an example, use urine and blood as spell components and that's an enormous no-no. Kitsu magic is either Tsuno soultwisting now or they've incorporated it into their shugenja practices.

The d20 shugenja is a pretty poor representation of how it works in Rokugan - in the original system, you could learn new spells with study and research, you could temporarily acquire a new spell by addressing the kami directly, and you could potentially jury-rig new spells by creatively using already existing ones and calling raises.

As far as Rokugan is concerned, the answer has little to do with the actual mechanics of the class involved, and more to do with the fact that Rokugan abhors the idea of using pee as a material focus.

Faily
2016-04-28, 06:25 PM
The rules introduced introduced in the Oriental Adventures supplement where explicitly intended to be used in Rokugan, and Shamans do exist in that world. The Kitsu family of the Lion clan has Shamans. Why aren't those divine specialist more popular, when they have a spell list and class abilities better suited than Shuganja's?


Not entirely correct.

All classes considered "compatible" for the Rokugan setting in the Oriental Adventures book are marked with a Five Elemental Rings-symbol. Shaman does not have this mark (neither do Sohei or Wu Jen).

Shaman entry also says:

(pg 22. Oriental Adventures)
Shamans play a vital role in the world of Oriental Adventures - communicating with ancestor spirits, demons, nature spirits, and the most powerful spirits, who might be considered deities. The shaman offers sacrifices, prayers, and services to the spirits, and in return gains the favor of patron spirits which bestow spells and other magical abilities upon him. With the exception of certain Lion Clan "spirit stalkers" of the Kitsu family, shamans are not found in Rokugan; Shugenja fill this role instead.

Later on, Way of the Shugenja provides us with more suitable d20 mechanics to better reflect the original mechanic of L5R (because Kitsu Shugenja are still shugenja in the original system), namely the Sodan-Senzo Prestige Class. Rokugan d20 also provides us with the Kitsu Blood-feats to build this up better, and requires you to be a Shugenja. I suspect they added that little line of using Shaman for certain Kitsu was basically just because the game-writers knew the Kitsu Pure Bloods had access to some really unique magic, and it was more lazy writing than anything to say it applied to those Kitsu. Thankfully, Rokugan d20, Magic of Rokugan and Way of the Shugenja corrected this.

The Oriental Adventures book is not really a good sourcebook for Rokugan. Just saying.

In the original system, there have been different takes on representing the ability of some rare Kitsu (rare shugenja among the rare numbers of shugenja! So there's like... a handful maybe each generation?) who actually do have the abilities of their distant ancestors (the Kitsu race) to walk between realms of the world. This has been represented as unique shugenja schools and advanced schools mechanically. In 4E, all Kitsu Shugenja have the ability to see the "touch of the spiritual" on people.

---

That aside, as rayun goth points out, the shugenja of Rokugan are shamanistic to the point that their kind of practice is what has often been called shamanism (communion with spirits of nature). So in that technical sense, Shugenja are shamanists. They are also Priests, filling the roles of clerics, essentially.

Monks on the other hand are more a social standing than a "class" in Rokugan. Not every monk has learned kiho or has ranks in a Monk school, sometimes they're just a retired samurai. Or a remote shrine somewhere might have two monks tending to it, both of them having no proper training in the mystical arts. Sure, they might have lots of ranks in Lore: Theology (with appropriate emphases), but not nescessarily actual magic-monk powers.

Then you have the exceptions; monks of the Asako Henshin Order and the Togashi Ise Zumi Order. Both Asako and Togashi monks are part of the samurai caste. They have samurai names, they have a clan loyalty, a lord they serve, and are treated as samurai on grounds of status, what titles they may hold, duties and testimony. However, since they are also monastic orders, they end up walking the thin edge between being a part of the samurai caste, and being part of the monk caste (Monks have Status 0, iirc, in Rokugan). Monks are treated with respect everywhere, because Hantei greatly revered The Little Teacher, who is considered one of the greatest heroes in all of Rokugani history alongside The Seven Thunders. Not to mention the saying "the Emperor bows only to two people; monks and the elderly".
Asako Henshin and Togashi Ise Zumi may also carry the Wakizashi (the symbol of the samurai caste), as well as the Katana. Other monks are not allowed to carry such weapons.

Brother Oni
2016-04-29, 08:59 AM
Well, yeah, of course there is something off.

First, you have five radically different base faiths that are being uses as inspiration - Buddhism, Confucianism, Shintoism, Taoism, and the Chinese Celestial Bureaucracy.
Compounding their core differences from western religion is the degree of cross-over between the faiths, with various sects of each using elements of others, making them even more difficult to portray.

As an example, take a look at the backstory to Sun Wukong before he joins the Journey to the West. You have an animist monkey born from a stone egg, getting trained in martial arts and magic by a Taoist teacher/wizard, before going on to fight Chinese folk gods and finally getting punished for taking things too far by the Buddha dropping a mountain on him.

sktarq
2016-04-29, 10:28 AM
Yes, they are different settings, and that's why I have referenced them separatedly. Both of them have their own set of issues.



The rules introduced introduced in the Oriental Adventures supplement where explicitly intended to be used in Rokugan, and Shamans do exist in that world. The Kitsu family of the Lion clan has Shamans. Why aren't those divine specialist more popular, when they have a spell list and class abilities better suited than Shuganja's?



Actually, the priesthood of Chauntea is trying to introduce itself into Wa, but they are persecuted.

First paragraph. The rules for OA were always a mod of eurocentric D&D and so things like divine representative with spells were a thing and that cross over poorly. The rules are still D&D rules with Rokugan ideas shove in with the fewest mods possible. In rokugan they have the handwave of "no clerics" which solves much of it but in KaraTur they have to justify why clerics are not a thing. The problems that the two have are not all that similar.
As for groups like the Kitsu and Unicorn being different spellcasting classes that are not well represented. . . I use other favored classes from splatbooks. Shadowmages for the Scorpion, Truenamers for Unicorn, archavist for the Falcon and/or Kitsu. That's just me though.

As for Chauntea going into Wa - it seems to just make the problem worse. It directly shows that clerics could work but the CB chooses not to.

Tiktakkat
2016-04-29, 11:55 AM
As an example, take a look at the backstory to Sun Wukong before he joins the Journey to the West. You have an animist monkey born from a stone egg, getting trained in martial arts and magic by a Taoist teacher/wizard, before going on to fight Chinese folk gods and finally getting punished for taking things too far by the Buddha dropping a mountain on him.

As it goes, I'd call that more than an example, and declare it one of the primary foundations of design for Asian settings. (The others being "Shogun" and a combination of "Executioners from Shaolin" and "Drunken Master".)

Those first have to be reconciled into a single game system, and then translated into something resembling "standard" adventures.

NichG
2016-04-29, 12:29 PM
The 'gods' of this type of setting are going to be less 'these are beings whose purpose in the universe is to be believed in by mortals' and more 'here is a shadow society of powerful beings, whose dealings are observed by and maybe even impact the mortal world, but for the most part they basically don't have anything to do with mortals'.

If we take the analogy to Planescape, you have a bunch of places that powerful beings live that are hard to access for mortals from the Prime. In those places, there are all sorts of powerful factions. A learned scholar from the Prime with their own travel magics might learn about those factions or even idolize some of their ideals, but it wouldn't be all that weird for the factions to not really care that they could use that scholar to convert his prime plane to their cause. It's not even that doing so wouldn't benefit them, its just that its a big multiverse and there's so much going on out there on the planes that mucking about with worshippers and converts on a particular prime plane doesn't really register. Any given prime plane just isn't that important.

So from that point of view, priests who know about the celestial bureaucracy are more like interpreters or diplomats or translators than 'true believers' - they try to get the attention of gods when it might help their community, or try to distract or appease gods who inconveniently decide to get involved with mortal life when its not convenient. But of course the celestial bureaucracy gods rarely get involved precisely because they have such an organized structure - its not generally their job to do so.

So then you have the various animists. They're doing the same thing, but now its with the much more immediate spirits of the rocks and trees and whatever. That's very pragmatic - if there's a rock slide and you can ask it to please avoid my village, then that's really good for the village. It doesn't mean they invest the spirits with the idea of bearing some kind of cosmic truth, its just that the spirits are a fact of life and hey, it turns out that oddly enough there are some special humans that they'll listen to.

When it comes to things like the Way and monks, there they're actually representing the segment of the religions that are in some way concerned with cosmic truth. Here though the idea that cosmic truth isn't 'well there are such and such beings and they're really important', its more along the inner truth line. And people who pursue that tend to have to make a lot of sacrifices to do that, so they have a practical hierarchy of martial support to carve out a safe place in a hostile world for that sake.

So it essentially makes internal sense when you step back from the idea of connecting 'gods' to 'believers'.

Clistenes
2016-04-29, 12:56 PM
The 'gods' of this type of setting are going to be less 'these are beings whose purpose in the universe is to be believed in by mortals' and more 'here is a shadow society of powerful beings, whose dealings are observed by and maybe even impact the mortal world, but for the most part they basically don't have anything to do with mortals'.

If we take the analogy to Planescape, you have a bunch of places that powerful beings live that are hard to access for mortals from the Prime. In those places, there are all sorts of powerful factions. A learned scholar from the Prime with their own travel magics might learn about those factions or even idolize some of their ideals, but it wouldn't be all that weird for the factions to not really care that they could use that scholar to convert his prime plane to their cause. It's not even that doing so wouldn't benefit them, its just that its a big multiverse and there's so much going on out there on the planes that mucking about with worshippers and converts on a particular prime plane doesn't really register. Any given prime plane just isn't that important.

So from that point of view, priests who know about the celestial bureaucracy are more like interpreters or diplomats or translators than 'true believers' - they try to get the attention of gods when it might help their community, or try to distract or appease gods who inconveniently decide to get involved with mortal life when its not convenient. But of course the celestial bureaucracy gods rarely get involved precisely because they have such an organized structure - its not generally their job to do so.

So then you have the various animists. They're doing the same thing, but now its with the much more immediate spirits of the rocks and trees and whatever. That's very pragmatic - if there's a rock slide and you can ask it to please avoid my village, then that's really good for the village. It doesn't mean they invest the spirits with the idea of bearing some kind of cosmic truth, its just that the spirits are a fact of life and hey, it turns out that oddly enough there are some special humans that they'll listen to.

When it comes to things like the Way and monks, there they're actually representing the segment of the religions that are in some way concerned with cosmic truth. Here though the idea that cosmic truth isn't 'well there are such and such beings and they're really important', its more along the inner truth line. And people who pursue that tend to have to make a lot of sacrifices to do that, so they have a practical hierarchy of martial support to carve out a safe place in a hostile world for that sake.

So it essentially makes internal sense when you step back from the idea of connecting 'gods' to 'believers'.

The greatest problem I have with First Edition's Kara-Tur setting is that the Shukenjas, the guys who have the spells and class abilities required to bargain with the gods and spirits tend to follow the non-theistic philosophy of "The Way", while Monks, who pursue enlightenment by developing their inner strength, manage the organized cult to the gods, the "Path of Elightenment".

I dunno, it would make more sense for it to be the opposite: Shukenjas being tasked with dealing with the gods and spirits (and as such, managing the Path of Enlightenment), while Monks pursue a non-theistic discipline for enlightenment (for example, The Way).

NichG
2016-04-29, 01:18 PM
The greatest problem I have with First Edition's Kara-Tur setting is that the Shukenjas, the guys who have the spells and class abilities required to bargain with the gods and spirits tend to follow the non-theistic philosophy of "The Way", while Monks, who pursue enlightenment by developing their inner strength, manage the organized cult to the gods, the "Path of Elightenment".

I dunno, it would make more sense for it to be the opposite: Shukenjas being tasked with dealing with the gods and spirits (and as such, managing the Path of Enlightenment), while Monks pursue a non-theistic discipline for enlightenment (for example, The Way).

It'd be hard to manipulate, cajole, and control spirits if you honestly believed in their divinity and superiority and worthiness for worship. You have to be able to say 'you, stubborn spirit of the rock, yeah lazybones I'm talking to you, go to Iwata and get a girlfriend or something!'

BWR
2016-04-29, 02:28 PM
In rokugan they have the handwave of "no clerics" which solves much of it


They do have clerics: shugenja. They are priests of the gods and while their powers are primarily shamanistic their function in society is very definitely priestly. Only the Moto Death Priests might be said to be more like traditional RPG clerics, but even they use elemental magic.


As for groups like the Kitsu and Unicorn being different spellcasting classes that are not well represented. . . I use other favored classes from splatbooks. Shadowmages for the Scorpion, Truenamers for Unicorn, archavist for the Falcon and/or Kitsu. That's just me though.


They aren't different spellcasting classes in setting. They are all shugenja, they can all learn eachother's spells, they all cast (most of) their spells by entreating the kami to create effects. Multi-schooling from one shugenja school to another increases your caster level. The Moto Death Priests and the Iuchi meishodo are traditions adapted from outside Rokugan to work with Rokugani elemental magic. Truenaming is very little like meishodo - Naming what the Nezumi do. Yogo wardmasters and Soshi shuggies are definitely not shadowmages. Scorpion shadowbrands...I guess.
The Falcon? They have no noteworthy shugenja tradition, their female shuggies used to train with the Moshi.
Frankly, the d20 shugenja isn't a terribly good conversion of the Rokugani shugenja. Barred elements instead of affinity/deficiency, and a fixed set of known spells. They have what amounts to a higher caster level (including ability to cast higher level spells) for an elemental affinity and a lower caster level (including spell level) for their deficient element - except the Isawa who are awesome and feel that deficiencies are for losers. In d20 terms shugenja have a spellbook like wizards but cast them freely like sorcerers.

Anonymouswizard
2016-04-29, 04:12 PM
Frankly, the d20 shugenja isn't a terribly good conversion of the Rokugani shugenja. Barred elements instead of affinity/deficiency, and a fixed set of known spells. They have what amounts to a higher caster level (including ability to cast higher level spells) for an elemental affinity and a lower caster level (including spell level) for their deficient element - except the Isawa who are awesome and feel that deficiencies are for losers. In d20 terms shugenja have a spellbook like wizards but cast them freely like sorcerers.

Barred elements? But my earth Shugenja does know an air spell!

Shugenja are weird in D&D terms, they have a spellbook but as long as they can find the right page can cast spontaneously. Oh, and they also gave a set of spells known that they can cast spontaneously.

And the Isawa are just boring. They are simply better Shugenja, rather than getting an interesting technique.

BWR
2016-04-29, 04:47 PM
Barred elements? But my earth Shugenja does know an air spell!

Shugenja are weird in D&D terms, they have a spellbook but as long as they can find the right page can cast spontaneously. Oh, and they also gave a set of spells known that they can cast spontaneously.

And the Isawa are just boring. They are simply better Shugenja, rather than getting an interesting technique.

Yeah, in d20 they replaced deficiencies with barred elements. Magic of Rokugan or Way of the Shugenja tried to fix this with a feat.
4e Isawa are boring but 3e Isawa were plenty cool - Void counts double for affinity and you can Void dump on casting.

Xuc Xac
2016-04-29, 05:20 PM
I dunno, it would make more sense for it to be the opposite: Shukenjas being tasked with dealing with the gods and spirits (and as such, managing the Path of Enlightenment), while Monks pursue a non-theistic discipline for enlightenment (for example, The Way).

Maybe so, but it's based on the real world which wasn't required to make sense. Egg Shen from "Big Trouble in Little China" put it best: "Look what we have to work with: Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoist alchemy and sorcery. Like your salad bar, we take what we want and leave the rest!"

I spent about a decade in East and Southeast Asia and I visited a lot of temples, shrines, and pagodas. From what I've seen, the common people have "religion" but only "professionals" like priests and monks seem to care about the differences between the religions and philosophies. I've seen several pagodas with signs telling people not to leave animal sacrifices for Buddha because that's folk religion or something else, but not Buddhism. Everything is just kind of mixed together as far as most people are concerned. Even newly introduced religions that you would expect to keep a strict separation are mixed together. For example, a lot of Catholics in Vietnam have statues of the Virgin Mary that looks just like Kuan Yin holding a baby instead of a bottle and they pray to her by chanting like Buddhists in a pagoda (the words are different, but the chanting cadence is the same).

Mahayana Buddhists from more eastern countries are happy to go to Thailand and burn incense and pray in Hinayana pagodas in Thailand. That's like Anglicans going to Paris and lighting candles and saying rosaries in Notre Dame because it's "Christian". Cambodia and Vietnam are full of ancient temples that were built for Hindu gods but now they are pagodas with the simple addition of a Buddha statue to the inside, but the walls are still covered with Hindu images. Orthodox Christians, Catholics, and Muslims have occasionally reused each other's houses of worship, but they usually redecorate. When the Muslims took over the Hagia Sophia, they didn't just stick a crescent in Jesus' hand and call it a day. I saw one in Vietnam called Po Nagar that was originally built as a Hindu temple by the Cham people. The Vietnamese conquered the area and put some Buddha statues inside and made it into a pagoda. The Cham people are still living in the area, but they don't care about the old Hindu or Buddhist statues because they've all converted to Islam since then. Now that I think of it, the Muslims seem to be the only ones that can keep their religion straight. Probably because there's no grey area when you have one indivisible deity.

In Japan, they are well aware of the fact that they are playing mix-and-match with religions. They tend to say "Shinto when you're born, Christian when you get married, and Buddhist when you die".

The religious systems in Oriental Adventures/Kara-Tur are such a mess because the original source material is a mess too.

Faily
2016-04-29, 05:37 PM
That's a great read, Xuc Xac. :smallsmile:

In the vein of what Xuc Xac wrote, I recommend the book "Religions of Japan" by H. Byron Earheart. It gives great insight into how religions and spiritualism joined together in Japan, and I think it might give some better understanding of the subject of the religious systems of Kara-Tur and Rokugan.

Honest Tiefling
2016-04-29, 09:00 PM
Wasn't the Monk class also more based around Kung Fu movies instead of...Well, anything religious? I'd be very surprised if any of the editions of DnD had any monk class that even resembles genuine Asian religious practices.

nedz
2016-04-29, 09:39 PM
As an example, take a look at the backstory to Sun Wukong before he joins the Journey to the West. You have an animist monkey born from a stone egg, getting trained in martial arts and magic by a Taoist teacher/wizard, before going on to fight Chinese folk gods and finally getting punished for taking things too far by the Buddha dropping a mountain on him.

This - more or less.

First Edition's Kara-Tur was based upon someone watching Monkey and trying to recreate that setting. Monkey, based on the Chinese classic Journey to the West, is a collision of Taoism and Buddhism. Taoism was a competitor to Confucianism and so represents that somewhat satirically as a bureaucracy thing - at least in the tale. And the folk religion gets panned by all.

Clistenes
2016-04-30, 06:28 PM
That's a great read, Xuc Xac. :smallsmile:

In the vein of what Xuc Xac wrote, I recommend the book "Religions of Japan" by H. Byron Earheart. It gives great insight into how religions and spiritualism joined together in Japan, and I think it might give some better understanding of the subject of the religious systems of Kara-Tur and Rokugan.

Oh, I have read quite a bit about oriental religions. However, the Oriental Adventures religious systems have only very superficial similarities to the real stuff. I don't think the game developers cared much about the latter.

Truth to be told, it's natural that religion is very different for people able to cast Plane Shift and Astral Projection and Commune and Raise Dead. The problem is, the people able to cast those aren't religious leaders in Kara-Tur.


This - more or less.

First Edition's Kara-Tur was based upon someone watching Monkey and trying to recreate that setting. Monkey, based on the Chinese classic Journey to the West, is a collision of Taoism and Buddhism. Taoism was a competitor to Confucianism and so represents that somewhat satirically as a bureaucracy thing - at least in the tale. And the folk religion gets panned by all.

I think Journey to the West mocks every and all religions. I remember a chapter in which Guan Yin is in such a hurry to save Xuanzang that she leaves home in her nightgown, and Sun Wukong is "Uh, my lady shouldn't you get dressed first...?" and she answers "Shut up! I'm a f***ing Bodhisattva, so I can do whatever i want!". In another scene Su Wukong makes Lao Tze (who is trying to incinerate him) fall on his butt.

Xuc Xac
2016-04-30, 06:42 PM
Oh, I have read quite a bit about oriental religions. However, the Oriental Adventures religious systems have only very superficial similarities to the real stuff. I don't think the game developers cared much about the latter.

Truth to be told, it's natural that religion is very different for people able to cast Plane Shift and Astral Projection and Commune and Raise Dead. The problem is, the people able to cast those aren't religious leades in Kara-Tur.

When becoming a high level spell caster means politicking your way up the hierarchy of a religious organization to become Pope or Grand High Druid or whatever, it's natural that the religious leaders would also have those spells.

When becoming a high level spell caster means turning your back on society to live as a solitary hermit up in the mountains, not so much. The leaders are the ones that stay around in society to talk about rules like taking your shoes off in the temple and who's bringing the ambrosia salad to the next festival celebration.