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...Eh?
2007-06-25, 01:39 PM
Is it just me, or does hypnotism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hypnotism.htm) seem insanely abusable in low-leveled situations, especially in role-playing situations? Well, it's not that good in combat, unless you cast it before hostilities break out. But say you're dealing with a merchant.

Now, your local 16 Cha bard with 6 ranks in Bluff, Knowledge (royalty), Sense Motive, and Dipolmacy, for a total of +15 in Diplomacy, can take ten (assuming the merchant is indifferent) and make this person friendly. Now, cast hypnotism, and said merchant now has his attidue improved by two steps, which means it's boosted right up to Fanatic, an epic results. Since hypnotism's description puts no limit on what you could tell this merchant to do, you could more or less say "give me all your money and wares," and be done with that city. (Athough it might be a good idea to invest in some horses and screw in 2d4 rounds before the merchant wakes up and realizes he's just been robbed blind.)

Hey, that doesn't make an entirely crappy plot hook.

Yuki Akuma
2007-06-25, 02:03 PM
Epic results are unobtainable unless the character is actually epic. Outside of an epic game, "Fanatic" does not exist.

Douglas
2007-06-25, 03:45 PM
Epic results are unobtainable unless the character is actually epic. Outside of an epic game, "Fanatic" does not exist.
Reference, please.

technomancer
2007-06-25, 04:37 PM
Look at the PHB (or SRD) description of Diplomacy, no Fanatic entry.

Even more telling, look up the Epic Level Handbook (or Epic section of the SRD) description of Diplomacy: "The attitude of fanatic is added here. "

NEO|Phyte
2007-06-25, 04:43 PM
Look at the PHB (or SRD) description of Diplomacy, no Fanatic entry.

Even more telling, look up the Epic Level Handbook (or Epic section of the SRD) description of Diplomacy: "The attitude of fanatic is added here. "

And Tome of Battle adds the Duel of Wills to Intimidate. Does it say anywhere that you have to actually be Epic to be able to make Epic usage of skills, or are they just expanding on existing uses of skills like many other books have?
A non-Epic character can easily make a DC20 balance check with a bit of work, does he still fall off that 1-2 inch ledge because he's just not badass enough? :edit: wait, that ledge size is also in the nonEpic version...

Douglas
2007-06-25, 04:43 PM
Yes, now where does it say you have to be an epic character for those skill DCs to apply?

Zincorium
2007-06-25, 05:10 PM
Yes, now where does it say you have to be an epic character for those skill DCs to apply?

The epic handbook is 3.0, it is also designed only for epic play.

IF your DM allows you to use the DCs in there, no problem, but that would be a fairly odd situation especially since you're obviously trying to break the game by using it. If the book isn't allowed, they simply don't exist. You are stuck with what is in the PHB.

Also, the 'it doesn't say I can't' argument is worthless. The PHB does not say you can't have a human with four arms, or that has wish as a spell like ability. Isn't in there. But it doesn't say you can, so it is generally assumed that you can't without DM permission. Same thing here.

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-25, 05:24 PM
The epic handbook is 3.0, it is also designed only for epic play.

Incorrect. ELH is 3.5 do to the Update Book.

NEO|Phyte
2007-06-25, 05:30 PM
Also, the 'it doesn't say I can't' argument is worthless. The PHB does not say you can't have a human with four arms, or that has wish as a spell like ability. Isn't in there. But it doesn't say you can, so it is generally assumed that you can't without DM permission. Same thing here.
Bull. When Wizards has special restrictions for something, they tell you. You need to be Epic to take an Epic feat. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#acquiringEpicFeats) You need to be Epic to start an Epic PrC progression. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm) Now show me where you need to be Epic to use Epic skills.

As for your human analogy, without houserules, no you can't make humans with either of those things, because neither are listed in its abilities. (Multiple Limbs for the arms, SLA should be obvious)

Yechezkiel
2007-06-25, 05:42 PM
The first line of the skills section reads like you need to have epic levels to use them:

"Despite the near-magical nature of some epic level skill uses, all uses of skills are considered exceptional abilities (except if noted otherwise), and thus function normally even within areas of antimagic."

I guess like EVERYTHING, someone will argue a way to bastardize it.

Zincorium
2007-06-25, 05:46 PM
Bull. When Wizards has special restrictions for something, they tell you. You need to be Epic to take an Epic feat. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#acquiringEpicFeats) You need to be Epic to start an Epic PrC progression. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm) Now show me where you need to be Epic to use Epic skills.

As for your human analogy, without houserules, no you can't make humans with either of those things, because neither are listed in its abilities. (Multiple Limbs for the arms, SLA should be obvious)

I'm just saying that an argument based on 'there is nothing saying I can't use material from a book the campaign doesn't use' is indeed worthless. It will not convince your DM. Who else matters? Is some guy on the boards going to show up to your game and strong arm the DM into it? Unless you can use the book, there aren't any rules regarding epic skill use, so like having four arms (which is actually listed somewhere as a +1 LA) or a SLA, there is no chart indicating you can have skill checks with DC's in the 50s unless the ELH is available for the campaign.

Like I said, if your DM approves of your use of values indicated in a book that was intended only for epic play, then there is no problem.


Incorrect. ELH is 3.5 do to the Update Book.

Um, the physical book is not 3.5 as written. With the update books, a lot more books that were written as 3.0 do become compatible with 3.5. That doesn't change the contents of the books themselves. It just tells you what they should be for use in a 3.5 game.

Seriously Tippy, this is not worth arguing over, if you're going to get into what could be 3.5 just to spite me then why post?

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-25, 05:56 PM
Um, the physical book is not 3.5 as written. With the update books, a lot more books that were written as 3.0 do become compatible with 3.5. That doesn't change the contents of the books themselves. It just tells you what they should be for use in a 3.5 game.


If an update book is published for a 3.0 book the entire book becomes 3.5 RAW. The entire book being added into the SRD just compounds this.

If you play core only than you can't make a person fanatical. If you play core+SRD then you can, no matter your level.


Seriously Tippy, this is not worth arguing over, if you're going to get into what could be 3.5 just to spite me then why post?

As I said, it is 3.5. There is no "could" about it.

Neek
2007-06-25, 07:07 PM
In agreeance with a lot of people here. While epic uses of skills are intended for Epic use, there's nothing in the texts that states that. Despite that fact, that's an automatic assumption that you can do it; it's up to the DM to mediate such uses or flagrant abuses of the lack of restrictions.

GoblinJTHM
2007-06-25, 07:12 PM
is there a rule that states epic characters start at lvl 20 reguardless of how powerful/weak they are? I know it's said that they (the writers) consider epic characters to be 20+, but I think they never put a firm rule that says you are not epic until lvl 20, they just suggest epic as being 20+. Is that sounding right?

Yechezkiel
2007-06-25, 07:16 PM
is there a rule that states epic characters start at lvl 20 reguardless of how powerful/weak they are? I know it's said that they (the writers) consider epic characters to be 20+, but I think they never put a firm rule that says you are not epic until lvl 20, they just suggest epic as being 20+. Is that sounding right?

"Epic characters-those whose character level is 21st or higher..." -Opening line of the epic level section, SRD

prufock
2007-06-25, 07:28 PM
is there a rule that states epic characters start at lvl 20 reguardless of how powerful/weak they are? I know it's said that they (the writers) consider epic characters to be 20+, but I think they never put a firm rule that says you are not epic until lvl 20, they just suggest epic as being 20+. Is that sounding right?

Pages 4 and 5 of the ELH both state explictly that epic characters are 21st level and up.

prufock
2007-06-25, 07:51 PM
PHB: "While the subject is fascinated by this spell, it reacts as though it were two steps more friendly in attitude (see Influencing NPC Attitudes, page 72)."

Look at page 72. Do you see "fanatic"? Nope. Meanwhile, read the introduction to epic skill use in the ELH. It references "epic level skill use" a couple of times.

Gralamin
2007-06-25, 08:01 PM
Ah, but there is a difference between what the SRD states, and what the PHB states.
The SRD is OGL, the PHB is not. Since, in the SRD, there is no such line (full text below)...

Hypnotism
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: Several living creatures, no two of which may be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 2d4 rounds (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

Your gestures and droning incantation fascinate nearby creatures, causing them to stop and stare blankly at you. In addition, you can use their rapt attention to make your suggestions and requests seem more plausible. Roll 2d4 to see how many total Hit Dice of creatures you affect. Creatures with fewer HD are affected before creatures with more HD. Only creatures that can see or hear you are affected, but they do not need to understand you to be fascinated.

If you use this spell in combat, each target gains a +2 bonus on its saving throw. If the spell affects only a single creature not in combat at the time, the saving throw has a penalty of -2.

While the subject is fascinated by this spell, it reacts as though it were two steps more friendly in attitude. This allows you to make a single request of the affected creature (provided you can communicate with it). The request must be brief and reasonable. Even after the spell ends, the creature retains its new attitude toward you, but only with respect to that particular request.

A creature that fails its saving throw does not remember that you enspelled it.
...Thus we can conclude that if your playing with the SRD, you can bring it up to fanatic.

Corolinth
2007-06-25, 08:02 PM
Hypnotism is one of those spells/abilities that is balanced almost entirely through role-playing, and by DM discretion. Any sense of balance is entirely nebulous, as it varies by individual DMs. D&D players, by and large, tend to be absolutely terrible when it comes to judging any ability largely reliant on role-playing. So many little minute details are spelled out for you in the PH that the typical D&D player attitude is that every scenario can be handled exclusively through the RAW. If no restrictions are given, the assumption is that there aren't any, by virtue of the fact that everything else is spelled out for you. Using hypnotism on a friendly or helpful merchant does not mean that he's suddenly going to give up all of his worldly possessions and offer to give a complimentary back massage. That's simply ludicrous. Now you could still rob him, because he'd be distracted while your buddies cleaned house, but once he snaps out of it he'll be calling the guards. (I mean really, you didn't think you were the only people in the world, did you?)

As for epic-level uses for skills, and turning him fanatic...

Feel free to argue that you can use epic level skill results pre-epic. Sure, it doesn't say you can't (it might, but I don't feel like looking for a needle in a haystack). Those rules have only ever been printed in the epic-level handbook and the epic section of the 3.5 DMG, to my knowledge. This is akin to me telling a player that I'm not using Tome of Battle in my campaign, the player showing up with a warblade, and then trying to argue that the've made a perfectly legitimate character. That's great. I'm sure the character is perfectly legitimate. I also don't care. It's really not my fault a player can't follow simple directions.

There's nothing in the rules that says my players can't play warforged. Except I don't run Eberron, and don't have any Eberron books, so they can't play warforged. End of discussion. So on and so forth. If your DM isn't running an epic campaign, he's not using epic rules. Connect the dots.

The skill usage in the epic-level handbook are broken and overpowered. That's actually the point, because epic-level characters are supposed to be broken and overpowered. They're put in there to provide an incentive to continue specializing in certain skills once you can pass a DC30 check on a natural 1. Those skill uses are not suitable for a pre-epic campaign. Period. That's why they're in the epic-level handbook, and not the player's handbook. There may very well be absolutely nothing in the rules that explicitly states that a pre-epic character can not make use of those skill check results. That's irrelevent. Those rules are simply not suitable for characters below level 21.

So the answer is no, a pre-epic character can't make use of epic-level skill check results. If you (whoever you may be) can't understand why, I don't know what else to tell you, except to try the rules-lawyer bit with your DM. Most DMs are just going to tell you no, barring special circumstances.