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Sirithhyando
2016-05-16, 06:41 AM
Hi everyone, i tried my hand at making 2 cantrips.
Here's the context : A while ago i was in a 3.5 game where my character had to contribute to a school monetarily or by creating new spells. "Minor Transmutation" was one of them.
"Transmute school" is a try and i'm not sure if it would be too much or too situational. If too strong or too much possibility of abuse, i'd change it for a 1st level spell with a casting time of 1 bonus action and a duration of "instantaneous".
I considered a death-cleric with his ability to target 2 within 5ft with necromancy cantrip that target only one target. There's only one such spell that exist in the books and UA so i thought, a spell that change the school of other spell could maybe go well. So i know we could use this spell in that particular situation, but i haven't thought of any others.

"Minor Transmutation" is a spell that i'd like to keep as a cantrip though as it is now, i feel it could be too strong.

So, any feedback would be appreciated, thanks a lot. :smallsmile:


Transmute School
Transmutation cantrip

Casting time : 1 action
Range : Self
Components : V, S
Duration : concentration, up to 1 minute

Choose a school of magic between those available to a wizard. Spell you cast are from that school for the duration of the spell.



Minor transmutation
Transmutation cantrip

Casting time : 1 action
Range : Touch
Components : V, S
Duration : 1 minute

You can manipulate up to 1 square foot of non living material that isnít worn or carried by someone else than you. The manipulated material revert back after one minute or if you use this spell before one minute has passed. This manipulation doesnít let you change the mass, volume, color, temperature or smell of the material. For example, you could make a hole in a plank of wood by thickening the plank.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-05-16, 07:12 AM
My thoughts:

Transmute School doesn't make any sense to me. The spell's school doesn't usually matter when it's cast (the only exception I can think of is the Expert Divination ability). If the intention is to fool someone who is using Detect Magic, well that's stepping on the toes of Nystul's Magic Aura. And how does it even work? How can you transmute a soul back into a dead body or necromance a Fireball (as random examples)?

Minor Transmutation needs a lot of clarifications as caveats. I'd look at Fabricate and Creation as the starting points. And something like this is never going to be a cantrip. You might be able to squeeze it down to 1st level, but I can't see how you'd make it a cantrip.

Sirithhyando
2016-05-16, 07:34 AM
Transmute School doesn't make any sense to me. The spell's school doesn't usually matter when it's cast (the only exception I can think of is the Expert Divination ability). If the intention is to fool someone who is using Detect Magic, well that's stepping on the toes of Nystul's Magic Aura. And how does it even work? How can you transmute a soul back into a dead body or necromance a Fireball (as random examples)?

Mmm, yeah this would be stronger as Nystul's Magic Aura since it's not an illusion...
For the how it works part, i thought that it could simply be that the caster is able to use another source to fuel a spell. This spell would let the caster focus on another source and use it in ways it isn't meant to be. That was the idea when i made this.



Minor Transmutation needs a lot of clarifications as caveats. I'd look at Fabricate and Creation as the starting points. And something like this is never going to be a cantrip. You might be able to squeeze it down to 1st level, but I can't see how you'd make it a cantrip.
Yeah, the wording on this one is rough to get done. I'll look at those you said to start.
I was really counting on the possibility of having it as a cantrip, but oh well.
What if it was 1 pound of material with a casting time of 10 minutes and a spell duration as concentration, up to 1 minute?

Thanks for the feedback Ninja_Prawn :smallsmile:

Ninja_Prawn
2016-05-16, 07:45 AM
Mmm, yeah this would be stronger as Nystul's Magic Aura since it's not an illusion...
For the how it works part, i thought that it could simply be that the caster is able to use another source to fuel a spell. This spell would let the caster focus on another source and use it in ways it isn't meant to be. That was the idea when i made this.

Then I guess the difference is in how we see magic schools. I view them as a description of the spell, so for example, any spell that creates a transient elemental effect will be an evocation, because that's what it is. The 'fuel source' is nothing to do with the school, and varies by class. If you just want to mask a spell like NMA does, it would be an illusion, not a transmutation.


Yeah, the wording on this one is rough to get done. I'll look at those you said to start.
I was really counting on the possibility of having it as a cantrip, but oh well.
What if it was 1 pound of material with a casting time of 10 minutes and a spell duration as concentration, up to 1 minute?

That's hard for me to judge on the fly (I'm at work and AFB). I do think it should be a concentration spell though.

And you really need to define what "manipulate" means in the context of the spell. Everyone will have a different opinion otherwise, because it's very open-ended.

Final Hyena
2016-05-16, 07:46 AM
I concur with Ninja, the first cantrip is weird and is extremely niche. The second is way too strong. It's Stone shape without the stone limitation (goodbye adamantine wall), but only lasts a minute (which isn't a huge deal). It needs to be limited to wood, stone, earth and then pushed up to a second maybe even third level slot.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-05-16, 07:53 AM
As an aside, if all you *need* is two new transmutation cantrips, you're welcome to borrow mine. Check under spells in my homebrew sig.

Professor Gnoll
2016-05-16, 08:02 AM
The first spell has a more interesting effect than is immediately apparent: Allowing benefits that normally only target spells from one school of magic to apply to a new spell. For example, a Necromancer could use Grim Harvest with, say, Fireball.

Sirithhyando
2016-05-16, 08:28 AM
Then I guess the difference is in how we see magic schools. I view them as a description of the spell, so for example, any spell that creates a transient elemental effect will be an evocation, because that's what it is. The 'fuel source' is nothing to do with the school, and varies by class. If you just want to mask a spell like NMA does, it would be an illusion, not a transmutation.
Oh, i always thought it also meant from the source of the spell but yeah the source is from the class, not the school type.
Oh well, i honestly wanted to make attack cantrip go from evocation to necromancy to use more the "Reaper" ability of the death-cleric but now i see that's not the way to do it. Also, it doesn't need to be a transmutation spell, i thought that "physically" changing this was more a transmutation since i didn't want it to be an illusion. (an illusion wouldn't work with the "Reaper" ability)



That's hard for me to judge on the fly (I'm at work and AFB). I do think it should be a concentration spell though.
And you really need to define what "manipulate" means in the context of the spell. Everyone will have a different opinion otherwise, because it's very open-ended.
I agree for the concentration, it's a good way to tone it down.


I concur with Ninja, the first cantrip is weird and is extremely niche. The second is way too strong. It's Stone shape without the stone limitation (goodbye adamantine wall), but only lasts a minute (which isn't a huge deal). It needs to be limited to wood, stone, earth and then pushed up to a second maybe even third level slot.
The limitation would be a good way to tone it down also. To put it as concentration up to 1 minute would get it down too.
Though now i'm really sure it can't get down to cantrip, transmutation can be too strong if let too much to the imagination. "Hey look, i now have the key" or "hey, theres no more latch... for now"


As an aside, if all you *need* is two new transmutation cantrips, you're welcome to borrow mine. Check under spells in my homebrew sig.
I'll go see them later, thanks. Though it's necromancy cantrip i wanted with a flavorful very minor transmutation cantrip. The transmutation part is mostly done for now. :smalltongue:


The first spell has a more interesting effect than is immediately apparent: Allowing benefits that normally only target spells from one school of magic to apply to a new spell. For example, a Necromancer could use Grim Harvest with, say, Fireball.
Oh yeah i saw that possibility. But are "Grim Harvest" and "Reaper" the only ability that could benefit from it? Or what about other spells, i feel those spell would be higher level than i've played before so i'm unsure.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-05-16, 09:10 AM
Though it's necromancy cantrip i wanted with a flavorful very minor transmutation cantrip. The transmutation part is mostly done for now. :smalltongue:

I have one of those as well! Larloch's Minor Drain comes fully compatible with the Reaper ability, at no extra charge!