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View Full Version : Party defending a fixed installation?



Curmudgeon
2007-06-26, 05:01 AM
Most campaigns have the standard party of adventurers trekking about in the world to accomplish their goal. But what if the goal is to defend an installation against an imminent attack of unknown origin? It's always easier to destroy something rather than create it, and if your city is razed it really doesn't help that all of the party survived with HP intact.

I'm looking for ideas on a short, high (20ish) level campaign to defend an installation against an imminent attack (suggested, without much detail other than date and target, by captured enemy orders). I envision the setting as one with only low-level resident troops, relying mostly on treaties to supply defenders -- except they're a week away. The party of visiting adventurers then becomes the primary tool to save the city/castle/docks/whatever from destruction for the next week.

My guess is that I'll have to ratchet down the CL of the attackers to give the defenders a decent chance of success. It doesn't take much in the way of resources to send in a diversionary attack while the sneaky enemy sets fires or herds rust monsters to destroy the installation.

Have any of you run a similar scenario? I'd appreciate any constructive suggestions.

Glyphic
2007-06-26, 05:11 AM
I was in something like this the other month. Our "Liege" (not all of the party was loyal to the crown, but we didn't dislike him enough to kill him ourselves) needed extra protection, and we happened to have enough of a reputation for the guard to drag us in. And we were kinda there, foiling the Bad guys already.

We had a defensive map given to us, complete with Guard towers, ramparts, and an ill-placed royal garden. Oh, and some rumors of 'shadowy figures' stalking the walls. So we did our best, corodinated partrols, asked the rats in the kitchen to help keep an eye on things, about everything we could think up.

And then the assassins teleported in and killed the king. And back out (later rasing the king as a Shadow).

It kinda stunk. We didn't even know they could teleport.

kpenguin
2007-06-26, 05:11 AM
Um, exactly how much prep time do the PCs have? Because the defenses a party of level 20 PCs can concoct are frightening. From gated in allies to lining the perimeter with walls of force to traps of every description.

Tricks they might use:
Control Weather: Come on, making sure that any projectiles and siege weaponry is hampered or stopped by the wind plus dousing out any flames?
Extraplanar Help: Planar ally, planar binding, and gate will bring in help from the heavens or hells
Minion build: Druids/Rangers can train animals, Wizards can build constructs, Clerics can call in deity favors, and Bards can take leadership.
Walls: Several castings of permanent or instantaneous wall spells can effectively seal off any ground troops.

Curmudgeon
2007-06-26, 05:51 AM
Preparation time should be a matter of a few hours. The initial enemy will be elite advance strike troops; at 20th level I'm assuming that attackers will be invisible, teleport, fly, plane shift, and use other means to sneak up to optimum attack positions. Later waves will be lower level but more numerous, attempting to wear down the defenders by keeping spellcasters from resting and using swarm tactics so that the 5% minimum chance to hit will prove effective. In at least half of the assaults infiltrators will try to get in and destroy the defended installation, so the defenders will constantly need to divide their attention.

Frankly, I can't see too many ways a party of about 7 PCs and a bunch of 1st-5th level fighters can hold out for a week even if all the encounters are CL-appropriate.

Songlander
2007-06-26, 07:30 AM
It sounds like the attackers are going to be doing what they "should" do if the defenders are an overwhelming, but small, force: Divide, confuse, wear them down, use guerilla tactics. This seems all well and reasonable, and should be an extremely significant challenge even to a bunch of high-level characters. (Take a look at real-world examples involving recent conflicts between a military superpower's forces and unhappy, numerous locals... yup, the superpower is challenged all right!)

I'm guessing that your scenario involves the defence of something like a medieval castle: Big, immobile, stone walls, a garrison force, something valuable nearby to protect. Assuming the builders of the defenses weren't completely bone-headed (and they shouldn't be, given how expensive your average installation is to build and maintain), how does the installation normally defend against flying, invisible, teleporting etc. foes? (Note: Perhaps this is straying into another topic: How DO you sensibly design a fortress in a fantasy setting?)

Either you have to have a campaign setting in which magic is so rare as to be irrelevant (so "classical" castle design actually works against the type of foes it's likely to meet), or the installation should have some additional defences against magic-armed troops. These defences could range from the simple (e.g. all guard posts have trained dogs to sniff out invisible foes) to the exotic (e.g. the walls are constructed using a mortar that has antimagic properties, or a permanent magical effect exists that creates a barrier on the Astral/Ethereal plane preventing teleportation, etc.)

I think you're right that by giving the PCs lots of conflicting objectives, protecting numerous areas of the installation separately and simultaneously, reacting to surprises rather than "acting" to achieve surprise in their foes, would make for a very difficult challenge.

Funkyodor
2007-06-26, 09:17 AM
You could split up the party at the same time by making the place they are defending a 'race' of sorts. They have to find/nab something in the 'Alamo' at the same time as they keep the enemy army from sweeping in and nabbing it too. If they decide to focus on one and not the other bad things could happen.

Murongo
2007-06-26, 12:14 PM
The problem is that at level 20 you basically have modern technology and weapons (in magic form as opposed to technological) so castles are "outdated" and more or less useless. Unless you make it on its own plane, unteleportable and your enemies are dimension anchored-fighters. Then it would work. Kinda. Long-ranged explosives and flight kinda negate stone walls.

goat
2007-06-26, 12:29 PM
A level 9 wizard who knows "passwall" makes stone castles kind of useless. Just bundle him up to the wall in a shield tortoise, have him create a passage through, and storm the interior. It might take a few castings on really thick walls, so you might need more than one wizard, but by level 12 he could create three tunnels 15 feet long that would last long enough for him to have a sleep, recover his spells and cast three more. That's a 15 foot wide tunnel 30 feet long, more than enough to bypass almost any walls and smash your way in.

And if you need a bit more room at the end as you break in, he can cast a couple of disintegrates to make some more room...

Belkarseviltwin
2007-06-26, 01:44 PM
Well, Warhammer (tabletop wargame) deals with magic and castles in this way:
Magic cannot cross the walls. In other words, spells can be cast from the battlements, and at people on the battlements, but not it the caster is on one side and the target is on the other. Spells can be targeted on the walls themselves, and can be cast through an open gate.
House-rule that to include any spell where you specify a destination to prevent a teleport/passwall attack. Flying should be allowed, as it can be defended against with anti-air weaponry, summoned air elementals and flying creatures, etc.

CrazedGoblin
2007-06-26, 03:00 PM
im guessing in situations like this there would be hitpoints for everything iff the atackers wanted to try to breach it?

Mad Wizard
2007-06-26, 05:01 PM
The book "Heroes of Battle" would be a useful one here, it deals with large scale battles and armies.

Karsh
2007-06-26, 05:54 PM
If the party is largely of a single alignment, a Hallow/Unhallow spell could go a long way to help. You could have it cast Dispel Magic on any creature not of the alignment tied to the spell, or a constant-effect Invisibility Purge or any number of helpful spells.

goat
2007-06-26, 05:59 PM
Well, bookwise, there's really only one option: The Stronghold builder's guidebook. But I think it's 3.0

Damionte
2007-06-26, 07:14 PM
It would still help. you don't need ruiles, you need ideas. So Stronghold Builders guidebook or heroes of battle would be the ticket.

That is assuming that's the type of scene you want. If you plan on having the enemy come at them in this kind of conventianal way then yeah go for the siege books.

If not and the enemy plans to infiltrate those books won't do you any good.

Jack_Simth
2007-06-26, 08:04 PM
Most campaigns have the standard party of adventurers trekking about in the world to accomplish their goal. But what if the goal is to defend an installation against an imminent attack of unknown origin? It's always easier to destroy something rather than create it, and if your city is razed it really doesn't help that all of the party survived with HP intact.

I'm looking for ideas on a short, high (20ish) level campaign to defend an installation against an imminent attack (suggested, without much detail other than date and target, by captured enemy orders). I envision the setting as one with only low-level resident troops, relying mostly on treaties to supply defenders -- except they're a week away. The party of visiting adventurers then becomes the primary tool to save the city/castle/docks/whatever from destruction for the next week.

My guess is that I'll have to ratchet down the CL of the attackers to give the defenders a decent chance of success. It doesn't take much in the way of resources to send in a diversionary attack while the sneaky enemy sets fires or herds rust monsters to destroy the installation.

Have any of you run a similar scenario? I'd appreciate any constructive suggestions.

As a DM?

Depends on the nature of my players.

If my players are sneaky, conniving, and highly effective, they will basically refuse to play defense (as I'll need to be a sneaky, conniving, DM in order to make a challenege for them - and as I can be hard to out-guess when I put my mind to it, they'll lose to a specialized strike force taking out the target; see above for methods to bypass static defenses; there's more - incorporeal critters, for instance, can just blithly walk along through the ground, despite teleportation blocks, so long as they remain adjacent to the exterior - which doesn't matter, as they've got total cover and total concealment for the entire trip - ah, the joys of Shapechange). Because if all you can do is react to incoming threats, you've pretty much already lost, as you can't really win to begin with. I expect they'll intimidate / charm / dominate / replace / otherwise arrange for the opposing leader to pick a different target. I will permit this to work, with the appropriate divination spells / knoweledge checks / gather information checks. Their target, and getting to him, will pose an appropriet challenge.

If my players are a fairly straighforward lot, see the recent Order of the Stick plotline. They'll have a field day with lots and lots and lots of mooks, perhaps with a strike force involved that's only a little cautious (but mostly only if someone thinks to check for invisible stuff, or asks to roll a spot check). They'll be a couple of specialty critters in the mix in order to make sure everyone has a chance to shine, but it'll basically be an infinite horde combat on a timer. Second edition monsters - they don't make saves. Ever. They're all have slings as backups to their bows (bows do better normally, but Wind Wall doesn't nerf slings so much), and clubs for when they get into melee.

If there's a 20th level Wizard in the party, and the situation is as described (distant allies can indeed do the job if they can get there), I'll be mildly annoyed at the fact that a simple Teleportation Circle (http://www.rpgoracle.com/srd/spellsTtoZ.html#teleportation-circle) totally destroys my plotline. Of course, I'll recover readily enough - the allies have to put out a few of their own fires before they can do so - rampaging dragon, maybe.... but they'll be happy to assist if that's taken care of first; ah, improvisation....

Edit:
As for things to put in the army....

Seige weaponry. Catapults can damage walls fairly effectively from range. It takes a while to get through the wall (a five-foot cube of granite has, what, 900 HP and hardness 8?) but it'll do the job (unless it is destroyed). Make several, and scatter them - the party will make short work of them. Do arrange to breach at least one segment of wall first, though. Even if you have to fudge rolls a little to do so. It's nice to have a party member or two plug a hole in the wall (do note: a Wall of Stone or Wall of Iron is a paltry patch on a ten foot thick stone wall - a bunch of goblins with miner's picks will make a few minute's work of it; a Wall of Force only does the job if it's Permanent). Or a few Beholder, paired with Reduced Gnome Sorcerers with Invisibility. That'll breach the wall, and the See Invisibility party caster can't be everywhere at once.

I'd be more inclined with protecting a city than protecting a specific item/person; makes it harder for a strike force.

bugsysservant
2007-06-26, 08:31 PM
I imagine that high level characters would work sort of like air support today. You need them because if you don't have them and your enemies do you end up with the firebombings of Dresden. Essentially any high level party should be tasked with defensive measures before the battle followed by taking out their counterparts early on. If they win they can then turn their considerable talents on the enemies and really wipe them out.

It does no good taking out forty low level troops if the opposing wizard can zip in, invisible and flying, and take out half of your (greatly overwhelmed) troops. Don't forget that the defenders of such an installation will probably have at least some sort of defensive measures which would give them a vast advantage over the invaders. Think Helm's Deep, if the party had taken out Saruman (and no, in the book the wall was blow up by sorcerous fire, not a bomb)

Finally, there is still reason to build a wall, even if it won't stop a high level mage. A wall (and similar structures) will keep out most of the listed monsters in the MM. Yes, a barbed wire topped chain link fence won't survive a air strike by US bombers, but it will still keep out most people. What people often forget with D&D, is that high level characters are *RARE*. The disproportionate experience gained in 3.x serves to further this mentality. Most armies probably would have access to the very highest level spells unless they were taking on a foe as dangerous, with just as potent magic.

Matthew
2007-06-27, 08:22 PM
Level 20 Adventurers are probably better switching to offense and hitting the enemy before they hit the installation. Incidently, there are many, many, many articles on the subject of making Castles relevant at High Level play; most of them assume that the occupants and builders take sensible precautions against well known 'Fortress Busting' Spell Caster tricks when constructing the Castle. Really, though, The Stronghold Builder's Guide and Heroes of Battle are your best bet for comprehensive advice for this stuff.

Curmudgeon
2007-06-28, 09:17 AM
Really, though, The Stronghold Builder's Guide and Heroes of Battle are your best bet for comprehensive advice for this stuff. OK, thanks. I'll add those to my shopping list.