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Kizara
2007-06-26, 10:01 AM
Here's the deal, I'm trying to make the best anti-mage build I can manage. The idea is that you not only are very good at fighting mages and spellcasting creatures, but can hold your own in general somewhat and you can hunt down said mages. Although as githyanki this will primarily be mind flayers, the idea is to be good at killing all kinds of mages.

Here's what I have:
Race: Githyanki

Build: 1 barbarian, 1 (urban) ranger, 4 fighter, 3 hexblade, 1 crimson scourge, 5 occultslayer. After barbarian, class order doesnt really matter.
Feats: Imp Init, EWP (Merc GS), WF (Merc GS), WPN Spec (Merc GS), Power attack, Mage slayer, Improv Crit (Merc GS), Pierce Magical Concealment.

Edit: Stats are:
18
16
20
16
11
18
Yes, this is very high. Yes, my dice love me. This build would likely work with a much lower stats set though, as all you really need is a good str, con and not-complete-junk Int.

Merc GS= Mercurial Greatsword
Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment are both found in the Complete Arcane.
Hexblade and Occult Slayer are in the complete warrior. Crimson Scourge (THE bounty hunter PrC) is in CityScape. In your references, please don't use PHB2, third-part sources and make sure you reference whatever isnt Core (like I have).

For his main weapon, I'm thinking +4, Keen (cause all swords need keen), mage bane, impending and fiercebane (mages). As well as the githyanki silver sword ability (which owns).
Edit: Mage bane, impending and fiercebane are all in the magic item compendium (that I just got, yay!).

That's all I got so far. Any recomendations for build optimization/addition? (its only a 15 level build so far, for one) How about for support items? We run a fairly higher-wealth campaign, so dont think that a 50k+ item is unreasonable to 'shoot for' by mid levels.

Maerok
2007-06-26, 10:16 AM
Did you factor in the Gith LA? (I forgot if there is one or not)

Kizara
2007-06-26, 10:17 AM
Although I did not put it anywhere in the build, I do recognize that Githyanki have a +2 LA. I feel this is more then wroth it for what you get. One of the best non-core races IMO.

PlatinumJester
2007-06-26, 10:35 AM
I think you should have a fullblade from Arms and Equipment guide which I assume you have since Mercurial Greatsword is from it. Maybe ask your DM to allow you to have a Mercurial Fullblade.

SadisticFishing
2007-06-26, 10:38 AM
Alrighty, well, first things first - you don't need to Keen your sword if it's already Improved Critical, as they don't stack.

I personally just threw an Occult Slayer and two Goliath fighters at my party - all with mage slayer. But mage slayer really only does anything if they can't just five foot step away - so I gave them all spiked chains, and enlarge person (house ruled the warforged to be allowed it, but that's off topic), for a 15ft reach, and combat reflexes/vexing/adaptible flanker (PHB2, sorry) so they supported each other too.

Spiked Chains work very well for mage slayers, especially if you can get combat expertise and improved trip/disarm, as then you can even hurt people who don't cast spells, and again, support your party. If a spellcaster is on the ground, they can't exactly get out of the range of your attacks of opportunity.

You will want something that lets you fly, and move fast (boots of speed, or of springing and striding), as you need to get close enough to hurt people.

Sorry though, I don't have my MM on me, and Githyanki isn't under G, so I don't know what their racial traits are.

Hope I helped,
Me

Kizara
2007-06-26, 11:10 AM
For this purpose, the relevant githyanki racial traits are:

1) +2 dex, +2 con, -2 wisdom
2) SR 5+level (I know that's not very high, but its something)
3) A bunch of psionic spell-like abilities, including blur at lvl 1 and dimension door 3/day and plane shift at lvl 9.
4) A cutural biased for bladed weapons, including a silvered sword that is awarded to noteable githyanki that when you hit a psionic-using creature with it, they must make a DC 17 Fort save or lose all psionic powers for 1d4 rounds.


As for spiked chain, that is a pretty good idea and valid point. I was thinking of readying an action to hit them "if they moved away or started to cast a spell", thinking my DM would likely allow that. Was also thinking of throwing a tanglefoot bag at them or something similar first round of combat.

As for faster movement, I have the Dimension Door (Sp) and a barbarian's 40ft movespeed.
Enlarge person is great for any melee fighter, and is especially useful here. So I need an re-usable magic item that can do it (like 3/day), or a friendly caster.
Improved Trip is a decent idea, but where's the feat space for it?

Finally, although he can work with a party, this build and this character in general is meant to be a solo hunter.

Edit: Oh and keen and Improv crit stack thanx to house rules, I forgot to
mention that but I do actually know what I'm talking about. :)

Edit 2: Flight is a good point, since every wizard wroth hunting loves fly. Potion of Fly maybe? The boots slot will likely be Boots of Speed (neeeed hassste). As for fullblades, I prefer mercurial both flavour-wise and mechanically. Yes, I'm lucky enough that a 20/x4 crit weapon is very useful to me. A mercurial fullblade is an interesting idea though, I'll consider that.

SadisticFishing
2007-06-26, 11:17 AM
Ah, so would that be 18-20 or 17-20?

Either way, a level 15 character with 4 levels of fighter has 9 feats. I don't know Crimson Scourge at all, if it has no prereq feats though:

Mage Hunter
Pierce Magical protection
Combat Reflexes
EWP (Spiked Chain)
Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain)
Improved Initiative
Power Attack
One more:
Improved Critical (Spiked Chain)**
Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing)*


*: PHB2
**: Not nearly as necessary when using a spiked chain, possibly not even worth it.

... Alas, you win, there is no room for improved trip. No room for both improved critical and MWM, either...

Keep at least one rod of cancellation on you at all times, in case of Force Cage.

Edit: Haste isn't really that important, as you probably won't be making any attacks that aren't readied actions (that is, if you can somehow trap your target - the concentration check required to cast spells is insane when you do double damage on a readied action.

Rules quicky - can you use an AoP to trip?

Kizara
2007-06-26, 11:26 AM
The 20/x4 weapon goes to 19-20 and then 18-20, as per stacking rules.

Why would I need combat reflexes? A mage can only cast one spell per round, and its quite unlikely I will be threatening two at once.

Melee weapon mastery is actually one of the main reasons the PHB2 was thrown out of our games, its imba as piss.

Although the chain (that I do have a great love for) is quite a nice choice, by losing a sword, you A) lose alot of the githyanki flavour, although they are known to also love wierd and different weapons, so a githyanki spiked chain fighter is feasible 2) losing your silver sword, at least as your main weapon. Its both a status symbol and its disruption ability is very impressive.

I don't know what AoP means. As for haste, its partly because I just like the idea of doing a very great amount of damage in a round, as my playstyle is naturally very aggressive.

Inyssius Tor
2007-06-26, 11:28 AM
Rules quicky - can you use an AoP to trip?
If you typo'd AoO, then yes.

Amiria
2007-06-26, 11:59 AM
Rules quicky - can you use an AoP to trip?

And if you mean Xiaoyu's (Tekken) Art of the Phoenix stance, then yes, you can also trip opponents while in it. :smalltongue:

Quietus
2007-06-26, 12:50 PM
5 levels in Occult Slayer, and you're relying on huge amounts of magical gear, plus potential friendly spellcasting? In a class that specifically seeks to kill spellcasters?

I hope you've re-worked the fluff for that, to help your poor, poor character sleep at night.

PinkysBrain
2007-06-26, 01:28 PM
Meh, just say you are a reformed occult slayer who through experience has seen there are those who can responsibly make use of magic too and only seeks to prevent magic being used for evil. They don't have a code they have to follow or anything.

Kizara, some things to consider ... thicket of blades (ToB), stand still (EPH), quickened or linked synchronicity to ready an attack on the casting of a spell (EPH+CPsi), anticipate teleport (Carc + SC), dimensional shackles with 8 levels of justiciar (CW), antimagic torc (underdark).

The most potent anticaster build would probably be based around lots of mobility, thicket of blades and AMF ... but AMF is a bit cheesy.

Ignoring all that ... I'd prefer to have pierce magical concealment over all those weapon feats you have now. Mirror image and concealment are some of the best arcane caster defenses and ones which will cause you lots of misses without that feat. What's the point of improved crit if you want a keen weapon?

elliott20
2007-06-26, 01:32 PM
And if you mean Xiaoyu's (Tekken) Art of the Phoenix stance, then yes, you can also trip opponents while in it. :smalltongue:
Seeing someone reference Tekken on a D&D board just made my day.

Now, back on topic...

If you're talking about an anti-mage build that actually stands a chance against a fully played mage, you're kind of SOL there, dude. Ask any of the veterans here and they can give 30 different ways a wizard can own a non-full caster.

However, Sir Guaciamo came up with a fighter build that comes pretty close to being a threat to a mage. I can't remember where he had it posted, but it's out there somewhere.

lord_khaine
2007-06-26, 01:35 PM
you cant have any mageslayer without see invisibility of some sort, its the prime and greatest defence any arcane caster have.

hmm, in your case i guess you have to seettle for a lots of potions?
oh and as allready mentioned, do make sure to get some mode of flight as well.

PinkysBrain
2007-06-26, 01:37 PM
There are no potions of see invisibility, it's a personal range spell. There are other items though, such as the hand of glory, which can cast the spell.

Kizara
2007-06-26, 02:10 PM
1) to the "I need See Invisilibity/Pierce Magical Concealment" crowd.
I completely agree, and that's why it's on my feat list. Pierce Magical Concealment gives you the effective benefit of True Seeing when it comes to magical invisibility, illusions or deception spells.

2) No third party chese, I dont even know what any of that stuff is or the abbreviations for the referances beyond justicator.

3) As for fluff, I'm githyanki. My first love is hunting and killing mindflayers. My second love is the fact that I'm GITHYANKI, I believe all those not githyanki should be hunted down for sport and (character is LE) that all non-githyanki do not have the right or a great enough understanding to use magic.
Magic Weapons/items? Simple, its called loot or stuff forged by my own people. Occult Slayer is a far cry from Forsaker, and I didn't read anything in all the description of the class that suggested they dont use magic items. IN FACT, it highly suggests that you have a magical weapon.

4) As for the "no anti-mage can work" crowd. Keep in mind a few things:
a)Truckloads of redundant magic resistance, from "Arcane Resistance" and Mettle from hexblade, to githyanki SR, to well rounded and generally good fort and will saves, I think I got my ass covered.
b) Ability to "blink", that is to say dimension doorm as a spell-like ability 3 times per day. The "i cast wall of force and teleport and you can't do anything about it" cheese is not going to help you.
b) Impedance from The Magic Item Compendium says "when you strike a creature... its ability to use spells is impeded for 1d6 rounds" requiring an ability check based off their primary casting stat of DC 15 + spell level to cast anything.
c) Occult Slayer abilities, which are, quite frankly, complete ownage.
c) Carry a rod of cancelation for force cage cheese, and I'd really like to see what a "well played mage" can do against this build. Recall, he won't see me coming thanks to Occult Slayer's huge amount of anti-divination protections, and how much mobility I have.

Kizara
2007-06-26, 02:23 PM
I'll repeat myself to those that didn't catch it in my previous post:

Considering all the reasources this character has at his disposal, I'd like someone to think of how a mage could beat him considering:
1) he's not going to see me comming, thank you Mind Blank
2) No PHB2 or third party cheese *im looking at you Tome of Battle* And for those that think this stuf is balanced, I'd like you to give me a good reason it comes up in EVERY discussion of builds or optimized strategy. And no, that's not why it's been thrown out.
3) his hp total, im going to be doing some pretty obscene amount of damage here.

Roupe
2007-06-26, 02:45 PM
Mage counters with

insect plague?

SITB
2007-06-26, 02:50 PM
Pre battle buffs-Extended Foresight and Moment of Prescience (never go second in combat or be suprised again!).

1)Use Time stop.

1.1-1.5)Set encounter difficulty to cakewalk through the use of unbreakable casting.

2)???

3)Profit.

Hell, it's been said so long that even I can remember that. And I'm willing to bet it's not the optimal startegy either.

PinkysBrain
2007-06-26, 03:20 PM
1) to the "I need See Invisilibity/Pierce Magical Concealment" crowd.
I completely agree, and that's why it's on my feat list.
To be fair, it wasn't immediately clear which of the two Pierce Feat you had since you didn't type it out correctly. I assumed you meant the one which pierced his AC buffs ... since you didn't have blind fight (and you still don't).

Pierce Magical Concealment gives you the effective benefit of True Seeing when it comes to magical invisibility, illusions or deception spells.
No, not really. It allows you to ignore the miss chance. If you know where a creature is with invisibility from a spell without being able to see him you can attack his square without the 50% miss chance ... but you still can't see him.

2) No third party chese, I dont even know what any of that stuff is or the abbreviations for the referances beyond justicator.
ToB = Tome of Battle.
CPsi = Complete Psionics.
EPH = Expanded Psionics Handbook (also in the SRD).
CArc = Complete Arcane.
Underdark = Underdark.

Darion
2007-06-26, 03:58 PM
Mage slayers are tough to build, though your DM's choice to not allow PHB2 at least gives you a fraction of a chance (Sorry, but Celerity is the Arcane Win Button. It works. Period).

To be a Mage Slayer, you'll need the following:
~Decent Saves, combined, if possible, with Evasion and Mettle
~Immunities (especially Mindblank)
~A way to strip/remove buff effects (the Mageslayer feat chain can be helpful)
~A way to prevent the mage from just bamf-ing away (reach + close enough to force Concentration rolls, Dimensional Anchor/Lock/Etc)
~Ways to reach said Mage without needing to physically cross the battlefield (because of all those area control spells)
~Finally, a way to actually off the Mage (HP, save-or-die, ability damage, etc)

Race:
Human get the bonus feat, which is made of win.
SR Races (Githyanki, Drow, etc) can be made useful, but most of the time, they aren't the best.
My favorite though, HAS to be the Varoot Nerra (Fiend Folio) for reasons listed in the sample build (below).

Classes:
Fighter for feats is always a viable option (if fighter is a 2 level class)
Monk for evasion and saves might be viable (with the 2 level caveat and assuming you find an alt. class feature with better feat options)
Ranger with the FE: Arcanist (Complete Mage) is a cornerstone of the build below
Hexblade: Mettle is good, but probably not worth the levels
...ignoring the better ToB options (and for the record, ToB isn't "3rd party" at all, its just not core, any more than the Complete series are)
Barbarian: Fast movement, a bonus to will saves (while raging), and d12 HD for when you face a blaster? Could certainly do worse, but could do better.

PrC's:
Occult Slayer is solid, not the best, far from the worst.
Abjurant Champion for those with a few spells (mmm... celerity of your own, not an issue for you, but still).
Foehunter (MoW, still legal through the usual 3.x transparency).
Telflamar Shadow Lord (FR: Unapproachable East) has several of the above necessities, but it VERY gimped by one spell (Anticipate Teleport, SC)

My build of choice for a mage slaying character that doesn't suck (not that yours does, per se) would be the following (assuming LA Buyoff):

(note that this is a thrown together from memory build and might have factual inacuracies, much more of a guideline than a rule).

Varoot Nerra
Fighter 2/Ranger3/Occult Slayer 5/Foe Hunter 4/Master Thrower 1

Feats (9: 5 level, 2 fighter, 2 flaw): Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Shard dagger), EWP (Shard Dagger, Longsword- Racial Bonus), Two Weapon Fighting (Ranger Bonus), Track (Ranger Bonus), Endurance (Ranger Bonus), Mageslayer, Pierce Magical Protection, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Darkstalker

Class Features of Note:
Ranger: FE (Arcanist), Occult Slayer: Mind Blank, Spell Turning 2/d, Foe Hunter: Rancor +2d6 (meh), Hated Enemy Spell Resistance, Master Thrower: Palm Throw

Items you NEED:
~Shard daggers. Lots of them. They're +2 wounding daggers, great in melee or being thrown as a 2-for-1 with Palm throw. If you want to go the Magebane, Fierce, Impending, Etc rout, you'd only need one or two for melee
~Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (Tome of Magic): Gives you the Dark Creature Template (Hide in Plain Sight)- combined with Darkstalker and (even with a few levels without hide as a class skill) you should be able to be "better than invisible"
~Ring of Spell Storing: Resonant Resistance (Book of Vile Darkness)

Why this is a good Mage Slayer:
~Decent Saves, evasion in one more level
~Get to within 10' (or further if you want to deal with range penalties) and ready an action to attack if they cast anything. When they do, attack with a Palm Throw + Rancor to likely hit, cause decent damage (remember to double it) and Con loss, reducing their chance of making the Concentration check.
~Melee capabilites against Wind Wall = 6 attacks, even if only one or two hit, Rancor helps
~Outsider type grants immunity to many spells
~Minor elemental resistance to help with the "Orb Of X" line of spells and save you some HP
~Mirror Jump can be used to escape Forcecage and other magical obsturctions in ways normal teleportation can't, plus, as it only requires looking at a shiny surface, it can be done while immobolized

Where to go from here:
~Master Thrower grants evasion and the eventual ability to make touch attacks with ranged attacks, allowing Brutal Throw craziness for massive damage
~Barbarian/Runescarred Berserker could grant Anti-Magic
~More Foehunter increases Hated SR and Rancor

The Trick:
Unless you know what I'm about to say, the above might not seem all that impressive. What makes it GREAT is the combination of racial SR and the Foehunters Hated SR.

Varoot Nerra have SR 12+ class level, so 27 (looks like I made a level 17 build instead of 15, whoops, I'm too lazy to really go back and change anything). Not great, but not horrible.

Foehunters recieve a special 15+ class level SR that specifically stacks with racial SR, but only effects spells and SLA's from their "Hated Enemy." In this case, the "Hated Enemy" is ALL ARCANE CASTERS! So, a level 4 Foehunter has Hated SR 19.

So against Arcane casters, you're sitting on SR 46, not too shabby.

But wait, you're an outsider, so it shouldn't be difficult to sell your DM on "Resonant Resistance" from BoVD- they have to roll TWICE and take the worst, so that 10% chance just became 1%!

But wait! There's More! You don't JUST have spell resistance. You have REFLECTIVE Spell Resistance (Nerra!) meaning anything that your SR negates gets sent flying back at the caster.

Essentially, against anything that isn't kitted out to maximize its CL (which most NPC's aren't, and if they are, then they have gaping holes the rest of the party can exploit, or that you can exploit with other abilities), you have SR: I Win.

With stealth, Mind Blank, Mirror Jump, and some decent item-provided mobility, you should be able to avoid a lot of the SR: No nasty effects as well.

But seriously, Mage Hunting? Good luck. You'll need it.

Kizara
2007-06-26, 04:02 PM
Don't see how Insect Plague is going to matter much.

Yep, I read Pierce Magical Concealment wrong. Looks like wonderous item of See Invisibility is next on the must-have list.
My bad.

"Moment of Prescience" this means nothing to me, where is it from?

1) I'd like to know how you metamagiced a 9th-level spell.
Nobody casts a 10 min/level 9th level spell randomly. Cause even at 20, that's only lasting for 200 minutes or just over 3 hours.

2) Time stop is pretty powerful, and at that level time stop + teleport away isnt stoppable. I was kinda hoping someone could come up with something pre-9th, but I'll concede that point.

SITB
2007-06-26, 04:23 PM
Don't see how Insect Plague is going to matter much.


Besides it's an Cleric/Druid spell.


"Moment of Prescience" this means nothing to me, where is it from?

Player's Handbook, gives a one time insight bonus equal to caster level, arguably applies to initiative checks. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm)



1) I'd like to know how you metamagiced a 9th-level spell.
Nobody casts a 10 min/level 9th level spell randomly. Cause even at 20, that's only lasting for 200 minutes or just over 3 hours.


Metamagic greater extend rod. Thus making Foresight last 400 minutes.


2) Time stop is pretty powerful, and at that level time stop + teleport away isnt stoppable. I was kinda hoping someone could come up with something pre-9th, but I'll concede that point.

Why teleport away when you can rearrange the whole battlefield to your whim versus an enemy who you already know is coming to get you?

Kizara
2007-06-26, 04:38 PM
"Moment of Prescience"

Stupid new 3.5 spells. Yes, its Core and I'm stupid. But although its in flavour, that doesnt apply to initiative checks.

Foresight. K, sure, you can go to all that effort and its still down to initiative checks, which if you win and get Time Spot off, you're home free. Ok.

And remember I can dimension door and dimensional archor allows save/SR.

Aximili
2007-06-26, 04:49 PM
Not that I'm taking sides, but you should forget about your SR in the discussion. Sure, it can protect you from mages around the world, but there's a very practical-swift action-low level spell that gives you +10 to overcome SR for rounds per level in the Spell Compendium.

And the books mentioned, none of them are third party cheese. They are all wizards' stinky cheese.

Kizara
2007-06-26, 05:34 PM
Mage slayers are tough to build, though your DM's choice to not allow PHB2 at least gives you a fraction of a chance (Sorry, but Celerity is the Arcane Win Button. It works. Period).

To be a Mage Slayer, you'll need the following:
~Decent Saves, combined, if possible, with Evasion and Mettle
~Immunities (especially Mindblank)
~A way to strip/remove buff effects (the Mageslayer feat chain can be helpful)
~A way to prevent the mage from just bamf-ing away (reach + close enough to force Concentration rolls, Dimensional Anchor/Lock/Etc)
~Ways to reach said Mage without needing to physically cross the battlefield (because of all those area control spells)
~Finally, a way to actually off the Mage (HP, save-or-die, ability damage, etc)

Race:
Human get the bonus feat, which is made of win.
SR Races (Githyanki, Drow, etc) can be made useful, but most of the time, they aren't the best.
My favorite though, HAS to be the Varoot Nerra (Fiend Folio) for reasons listed in the sample build (below).

Classes:
Fighter for feats is always a viable option (if fighter is a 2 level class)
Monk for evasion and saves might be viable (with the 2 level caveat and assuming you find an alt. class feature with better feat options)
Ranger with the FE: Arcanist (Complete Mage) is a cornerstone of the build below
Hexblade: Mettle is good, but probably not worth the levels
...ignoring the better ToB options (and for the record, ToB isn't "3rd party" at all, its just not core, any more than the Complete series are)
Barbarian: Fast movement, a bonus to will saves (while raging), and d12 HD for when you face a blaster? Could certainly do worse, but could do better.

PrC's:
Occult Slayer is solid, not the best, far from the worst.
Abjurant Champion for those with a few spells (mmm... celerity of your own, not an issue for you, but still).
Foehunter (MoW, still legal through the usual 3.x transparency).
Telflamar Shadow Lord (FR: Unapproachable East) has several of the above necessities, but it VERY gimped by one spell (Anticipate Teleport, SC)

My build of choice for a mage slaying character that doesn't suck (not that yours does, per se) would be the following (assuming LA Buyoff):

(note that this is a thrown together from memory build and might have factual inacuracies, much more of a guideline than a rule).

Varoot Nerra
Fighter 2/Ranger3/Occult Slayer 5/Foe Hunter 4/Master Thrower 1

Feats (9: 5 level, 2 fighter, 2 flaw): Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Shard dagger), EWP (Shard Dagger, Longsword- Racial Bonus), Two Weapon Fighting (Ranger Bonus), Track (Ranger Bonus), Endurance (Ranger Bonus), Mageslayer, Pierce Magical Protection, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Darkstalker

Class Features of Note:
Ranger: FE (Arcanist), Occult Slayer: Mind Blank, Spell Turning 2/d, Foe Hunter: Rancor +2d6 (meh), Hated Enemy Spell Resistance, Master Thrower: Palm Throw

Items you NEED:
~Shard daggers. Lots of them. They're +2 wounding daggers, great in melee or being thrown as a 2-for-1 with Palm throw. If you want to go the Magebane, Fierce, Impending, Etc rout, you'd only need one or two for melee
~Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (Tome of Magic): Gives you the Dark Creature Template (Hide in Plain Sight)- combined with Darkstalker and (even with a few levels without hide as a class skill) you should be able to be "better than invisible"
~Ring of Spell Storing: Resonant Resistance (Book of Vile Darkness)

Why this is a good Mage Slayer:
~Decent Saves, evasion in one more level
~Get to within 10' (or further if you want to deal with range penalties) and ready an action to attack if they cast anything. When they do, attack with a Palm Throw + Rancor to likely hit, cause decent damage (remember to double it) and Con loss, reducing their chance of making the Concentration check.
~Melee capabilites against Wind Wall = 6 attacks, even if only one or two hit, Rancor helps
~Outsider type grants immunity to many spells
~Minor elemental resistance to help with the "Orb Of X" line of spells and save you some HP
~Mirror Jump can be used to escape Forcecage and other magical obsturctions in ways normal teleportation can't, plus, as it only requires looking at a shiny surface, it can be done while immobolized

Where to go from here:
~Master Thrower grants evasion and the eventual ability to make touch attacks with ranged attacks, allowing Brutal Throw craziness for massive damage
~Barbarian/Runescarred Berserker could grant Anti-Magic
~More Foehunter increases Hated SR and Rancor

The Trick:
Unless you know what I'm about to say, the above might not seem all that impressive. What makes it GREAT is the combination of racial SR and the Foehunters Hated SR.

Varoot Nerra have SR 12+ class level, so 27 (looks like I made a level 17 build instead of 15, whoops, I'm too lazy to really go back and change anything). Not great, but not horrible.

Foehunters recieve a special 15+ class level SR that specifically stacks with racial SR, but only effects spells and SLA's from their "Hated Enemy." In this case, the "Hated Enemy" is ALL ARCANE CASTERS! So, a level 4 Foehunter has Hated SR 19.

So against Arcane casters, you're sitting on SR 46, not too shabby.

But wait, you're an outsider, so it shouldn't be difficult to sell your DM on "Resonant Resistance" from BoVD- they have to roll TWICE and take the worst, so that 10% chance just became 1%!

But wait! There's More! You don't JUST have spell resistance. You have REFLECTIVE Spell Resistance (Nerra!) meaning anything that your SR negates gets sent flying back at the caster.

Essentially, against anything that isn't kitted out to maximize its CL (which most NPC's aren't, and if they are, then they have gaping holes the rest of the party can exploit, or that you can exploit with other abilities), you have SR: I Win.

With stealth, Mind Blank, Mirror Jump, and some decent item-provided mobility, you should be able to avoid a lot of the SR: No nasty effects as well.

But seriously, Mage Hunting? Good luck. You'll need it.

Some interesting thoughts. Other campaign settings (FR) are out; I'm not playing FR. I'll have to have a look back at my MotW for Foe Hunter, nice idea, forgot about it. Where can I find these Shard Daggers? Also, the main difference (aside from foe hunter) in our builds is your building ranged agility, im building melee strength. Both builds have validity, but I've always had a great fondess for str melee ownage.

Personally I think hexblade levels are 'wroth it' alot more then ranger ones. Mettle and arcane resisitance vs.... fighting style and endurance? No question in my mind anyways.


Edit: I figured since I needed wpn focus anyways, and more feats anyways, taking 3-4 fighter for weapon spec just seemed a reasonable choice. I could see how its not really though, thing is if you take out 2 fighter you now have a 13-level build.
Maybe Foe Hunter could fill in a bit (I'll look at it) but otherwise im thinking 1 more hexblade, then... more crimson scourge? The special abilities are somewhat crap, but 6+int skill points, d10 HD and full BAB are damn good.

Breaon
2007-06-26, 06:20 PM
Wizard casts Time Stop.

Wizard casts Gate or Wish.

have fun :)

Ditto
2007-06-26, 07:53 PM
There's another thread touting the wonders of a Monk20 as the ultimate PvP (based specifically against wizards, obviously) kicking around somewhere, where Giacomo is valiantly defending that silly losing cause.

Also, I'm stalking PinkysBrain. I see you! Why won't you answer my PMs? :smallfrown: The Battle of the Core Classes is waiting for you... don't you want to kick the sorry sorcerer's butt? Prove your mage-slaying prowess! :smallamused:

Kizara
2007-06-26, 08:28 PM
"There's another thread touting the wonders of a Monk20 as the ultimate PvP (based specifically against wizards, obviously) kicking around somewhere, where Giacomo is valiantly defending that silly losing cause."

I think my build has alot (beyond more flavour) that monk 20 doesn't. Specifically the occult slayer abilities.

Is the other thread saying monk 20 is the best PvP class in comparison with any other Core 20 class? It might be, but that's not the point here.

SadisticFishing
2007-06-26, 09:52 PM
(I didn't read every post, just your last reply to mine, as I'm supposed to be writing an essay.. sorry :P)

Bah, MWM isn't overpowered it all, it just gives fighters, and fighter dips, that extra edge. Celerity on the other hand...

Anyways, Combat reflexes would be just in case, or so you can trip them when they spellcast on your AoO (sorry, yeah, we call them AoP's cuz AoO sounds like a ghost out loud), and they're in a lot of trouble as they can't stand up as their move action or their dead.

Rod of Cancellation is really important though, otherwise a simple Force Cage kills your character (albeit slowly)

reorith
2007-06-26, 10:09 PM
would a level of sorc be advantageous? five uses read magic or detect magic a day plus the minor bonus of a familiar seem like they might work a place into your build.

Kizara
2007-06-26, 10:22 PM
Getting another level of hexblade gets me a familiar and some basic spells, such as alarm that are useful. I get aura vision as occult slayer, and read magic isnt really that useful for a non-caster.

Its a THOUGHT, but its completely against the flavour of the build, burns you for a BAB and has crap d4 hd, and doesn't really give you much in return.

As for combat reflexes, if your going the spiked chain build that's smart, if not its just a random feat.

Leon
2007-06-27, 04:40 AM
2) No PHB2 or third party cheese *im looking at you Tome of Battle* And for

ToB is not Third Party, its a WoTC Product - not "core" but a useful splatbook
none the less

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-27, 06:09 AM
My suggestion: Since a spiked chain is all you're using, given how much you've sank into it feat-wise, I suggest dumping Improved Critical and picking up a Keen chain. Money is replaceable, feats are not.

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-27, 06:17 AM
There's another thread touting the wonders of a Monk20 as the ultimate PvP (based specifically against wizards, obviously) kicking around somewhere, where Giacomo is valiantly defending that silly losing cause.

Just you wait...:smallbiggrin: (valiant fighting sounds trailing off into the background...)

Apart from that, Kizara's ideas look solid, I'd say. Basically, you'll need to somehow find ways throughout the levels to counter most of the typical mage's greatest powers (check also the logicninja guide):
Lvls (typical spell levels)
ALL levels: try to get ways to not be fooled by illusions and to remain safe vs diviniations and scrying (enemy intelligence). It also good to preserve combat strength in case of summoned creatures/mage's minions...
1-4 (1st, 2nd level spells): get protection vs enchantment spells, since those are the best attacking spells. Also stuff vs invisibility and alter self cheese. And vs ray attacks that can be combined with true strike (enfeeblement) and vs web (do not underestimate the necessity of high Reflex saves!).
5-8 (1st-4th level spells): shatter+dispel magic combo, evard's black tentacles, ortiluke's resilient sphere, soild fog, enervation, wind wall vs archery, polymorph, fly, dimension door, improved invisibility.
9-12 (1st-6th level spells): disintegrate, greater dispelling of your buffs, wall of force (of stone and of iron can also be a nuisance), contingency, overland flight, cloudkill, teleport.
13-16 (1st-8th level spells): Mage's magnificent mansion in combination with private sanctum, mind blank, power word stun, moment of prescience, reverse gravity, forcecage, discern location.
17&up (9th level :smalleek: ): Gate, time stop, wish, mage's disjunction, prismatic sphere, foresight, shapechange, and er..actually all (in particular necessitating saves based on 9th level spells than can go into the high 30s).

Apart from that, Darion's high-end reflecting SR is quite amazing- I do not know the rules companions, but that sounds like it can already make some bad day for casters...

- Giacomo

SITB
2007-06-27, 06:22 AM
Is it me, or does it seem that Mages Disjunction hurts fighter types more then mages?

PinkysBrain
2007-06-27, 11:21 AM
Is it me, or does it seem that Mages Disjunction hurts fighter types more then mages?
I guess they thought BAB is so uber that even without equipment it's better than having 9th level spells ... so they used the weak save of martial characters. By right it should have been a fort save spell (which disintegrated magic items or something to justify that particular save).

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-27, 11:30 AM
Is it me, or does it seem that Mages Disjunction hurts fighter types more then mages?

At face value, mages/casters are hurt more since they more often have spells active on them (which get automatically dispelled, including permanencie'd stuff, which hurts most likely). Items, though, are a different matter and any non-monk non-caster has bad will saves against that disjunction effect (although an AMF helps here most of the times).

- Giacomo

Kizara
2007-06-27, 06:45 PM
I got an idea:

Kizara's Ball of Your Screwed (will think of a better name later)

This tennisball-sized sphere has silence continually cast on it. Furthermore, when it is thrown and sucessfully strikes a Small to Large sized creature, that creature is subject to a tanglefoot bag effect and a dimensional anchor spell. These secondary effects are usable three times per day.

Thoughts? Would it work?
From my reckoning it would work vs non-casters decently well too (slowed down alot, silence prevents raising an alarm).
How much would it cost? What would the save DC for the dim anchor effect be?

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-28, 03:49 AM
Hmmm, cast silence on a tanglefoot bag (UMD scroll or take 3 levels cleric), and you are almost there inside the rules...as for casting dimensional anchor in the same round...hmmm...I guess that is not possible for a non-caster. UMD with a wand of dimensional anchor could work, but that takes a standard action to use so you could not toss a tanglefoot bag anymore.
Note also that the tanglefoot bag, by the time you need a dimensional anchor to capture the wizard/sorcerer (lvl 7&up) will likley have a too low reflex DC to matter and the wizard/sorcerer can also use still spell.

- Giacomo

Kizara
2007-06-28, 06:15 PM
I meant to have a custom item that did those properites.

A ball of re-usable tanglefoot with silence cast on it that also casts dimensional anchor on impact.

Person_Man
2007-06-28, 07:41 PM
Shackles of Silence from the Item Compendium. 6,000 gp. Combine with a decent Justicar build.

But I prefer to just kill my enemies. Call me old fashion, but frankly, its just a lot easier.

For some reason no one has mentioned the simple Hexblade/Blackguard/full BAB class with high Con, a Ring of Evasion, and any item/spell that grants Fly and True Sight. Combine with any decent high damage melee combo (I can think of at least 10) and you're set. You're now 95% immune to any magic that allows a Save, can usually survive anything that doesn't, can overcome the most common magical protections, and should be able to kill them in 1 round.

If you don't like Blackguard, you can use one of the Paladin variants or the Corrupt Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20051006b&page=1). There are others as well, just Google "lists of stuff" or "x to y" on the optimization board.

If you want some bizarre race for whatever reason, I suggest Feytouched (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) or Half-Fey (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a). Fey Touched are immune to Mind Affecting effects. Half Fey are immune to Enchantments and have wings. Either has very reasonable +1 LA.

SadisticFishing
2007-06-28, 08:37 PM
Corrupt Avenger's Cha bonus doesn't stack with others on his saving throws.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-28, 08:41 PM
Level 20 build for untouchable AC and saves:

Race: Gloura (it's on wizards)
What it gives you: DR10/ cold iron, +10 dex, +2 con, +2 wis, +6 cha, 60' fly (good), spells as a 7th lvl bard, darkvision, 60, and UNEARTHLY GRACE*.

*Add charisma modifier to saves and as a deflection bonus to AC.

What it costs: 7 medium fey HD, 2 LA

Levels (Any order):
2 Monk (evasion)
2 Blackguard PrC
2 Paladin of Tyranny
2 Arcane Duelist (on wizards) PrC
3 Hexblade


Required feats:
ascetic mage, power attack, imp sunder, cleave, dodge, mobility

What it does:
With monk and ascetic mage (which you qualify for thanks to the spells your hd give you), you add cha to AC instead of wis. Arcane duelist lets your cha modifier to AC as an unnmaed bonus that functions identically to a monk's unarmored AC bonus. Your race lets you had your cha to AC as a deflection bonus.

You now have 3x cha bonus to your AC. With your stats, you could easily have a 28 dex and 30 cha without any items. That would put your touch AC at 50. Throw in some tomes, gloves, a cape, and a monk's belt, and you're looking at 70 or 80 touch AC. Never fear rays of exhaustion again!

Blackguard, the Gloura race, and paladin of tyranny all grant your charisma to saves as an unnamed bonus. Hexblade gives you charisma as a bonus vs. spells and spell-like effects. Vs. mages, you're going to have a +40 to all saves. With items, you could easily see that above 60.

Monk gives you evasion and Blackguard gives you mettle, which means any save for partial means you take nothing.

Problems:
You can't do a whole lot. You have access to 3rd level bard spells, a mediocre BAB, and feats all over the place, on a build that doesn't have many feats to spare. Also, you have a problem with all those multiclass levels and experience. But you do have flight, and you are practically invulnerable to spells. You also have to be Lawful Evil. If you take Ninja for evasion instead of Monk, you can be any evil instead. Your DM may not let you stack paladin with blackguard, either.



If you don't like that build, remember, your will save is your weak spot. I would make wis, dex, and con my primary stats, in that order. Wisdom to aid in saves, dex to keep those rays of of me, and con to absorb damage. You may want to go mithral fullplate until you can afford the items for a monk's belt and dex/wis boosting items. If you keep your BAB full, you'll never need more than 13 str. A mage is really going to bring you down with touch attacks and things that target your will save.

Mobility is going to be another really big issue, as will be dealing with a wizard's ability to always go first at the highest levels. You're going to need a way to break force effects and teleport. I recommend going into Illithid Slayer, if not just for the 9 levels of manifester, the ability to evade detection, even by means of Wish and Miracle.

Kizara
2007-06-28, 11:36 PM
You realize blackgaurd and paladin of tyranny divine grace doesnt stack? its the exact same effect.


1) No silly half-baked imba races from non-core sources please. And I've seen ALOT of "its on the WotC site" stuff that is faaar from being balanced or halfway allowed in my games.

2) "I like to just kill my enemies" that's inherently what I'm trying to do here. I need something to stop people from effectively running from me, hence the bag idea.
2a) My build does have full BAB and good con/hd throughout.
b) Paladin of tyranny stacking Cha to saves with hexblade IS a good idea though, not sure if I can work the flavour though, as its meant to be a hunter not a divine crusader.
c) considering I will have mettle, ring of evasion seems a decent pickup, especially if I go with the paladin build. Mind you, I was just intending to 'take it' for reflex save spells. I mean, fireball? meh
d) do you know of any decent items from not-wierd sources that grant see invis or true sight reliably? There's winged boots for flight, but that eats your boots slot, doesnt work for long and is super-easy to dispel...


EDIT: I looked at the fey classes, while not as imba as I first assumed, they are REALLY good for your LA. Immunities (which noone really gets anymore), wings, good stat bonuses, etc? Too much in such a tight little package, I might adapt it though, its a cool idea. Thanks for the link.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-28, 11:49 PM
You realize blackgaurd and paladin of tyranny divine grace doesnt stack? its the exact same effect.


Dark Blessing (Su)
A blackguard applies his Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all saving throws.


Divine Grace (Su)
At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

Untyped, different names, from different sources. Technically stack, but terrible munchkin.



1) No silly half-baked imba races from non-core sources please. And I've seen ALOT of "its on the WotC site" stuff that is faaar from being balanced or halfway allowed in my games.

It's essentially a nymph for the Underdark.This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) is it. Alternatively, you could use nymph as your race, but that's ECL 13, with 7 LA.

Here's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) the Arcane Duelist. It sucks. Not 'imba' at all. Not even 'simba'. The requirements are killer, too. Dodge? Mobility? Crap.


2) "I like to just kill my enemies" that's inherently what I'm trying to do here. I need something to stop people from effectively running from me, hence the bag idea.

You know, to effecitvely beat a wizard with caster levels = your ECL, you're going to have to be either a caster, or cheesed out. There are precious few ways you can match the mobility of a caster, or his ability to shut you down without saves.


2a) My build does have full BAB and good con/hd throughout.

Your build needs much better wisdom, or at least, will saves.


b) Paladin of tyranny stacking Cha to saves with hexblade IS a good idea though, not sure if I can work the flavour though, as its meant to be a hunter not a divine crusader.

Divine hunter? Hunter on a holy mission?
You don't necessarily need a patron deity to be a paladin. Well, depends on your game. Do you?

Kizara
2007-06-29, 12:45 AM
I kinda figured with hexblade, occult slayer and arcane resistance (hexblade) I was fairly covered there. I mean, my stats are already damn hefty, I don't think having wisdom not be amazing too is soo bad for a race with -2 Wis.

Just kinda sick of playing paladin's lately, but yea its a good idea. And I could easily see my githyanki taking hunting mindflayers and thier ilk as his 'divine mission'.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-06-29, 12:49 AM
The first thing that came to mind was Weapon Specialization: lose it. +2 to damage at the level you're going to be at is not worth a feat by any means.

Kizara
2007-06-29, 12:56 AM
The first thing that came to mind was Weapon Specialization: lose it. +2 to damage at the level you're going to be at is not worth a feat by any means.

I agree. I'll be taking another feat.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-29, 12:57 AM
Steadfast determination may be a good feat. PHBII.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-06-29, 12:58 AM
A very good feat, if that book were allowed.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-29, 01:05 AM
Hmm, well, you can find most of the PHB2 feats at crystalkeep, if the issue is available source books and simply not a limitation on sources for a different reason.

Dementrius
2007-06-29, 01:07 AM
For the Monk (or especially the Githyanki) build, the Quicken SLA (Dimension Door) is probably something nice to get to avoid the mobility / flurry issues.

However, I think the lowest level you can get it is 18th (technically 16th, but no feat until 18th).

Kizara
2007-06-29, 01:07 AM
A very good feat, if that book were allowed.

You know, whenever I've said "no phb2 or ToB" it STILL comes up at least 5 times as far-superior options. Its so much better, people say to still try to consider it even though I said it was banned because it beats any other options available. Then these same people try to tell me how it's balanced. I find this very, very funny.

As for ghoula:
Yea that's not imba at all, you are basically a 7th level bard minus music and knowledge, with huge-arse ability boosts, wings, DR 10/cold iron and unearthly grace for +2 LA. The racial HD are BARELY wrose then just being bard 7. You people have a very 'unique' concept of what balanced is.

Try +4 LA and it might be getting there. Unearthly grace is amazing, and wroth 1-2 LA all by itself.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-29, 01:20 AM
You know, whenever I've said "no phb2 or ToB" it STILL comes up at least 5 times as far-superior options. Its so much better, people say to still try to consider it even though I said it was banned because it beats any other options available. Then these same people try to tell me how it's balanced. I find this very, very funny.

As for ghoula:
Yea that's not imba at all, you are basically a 7th level bard minus music and knowledge, with huge-arse ability boosts, wings, DR 10/cold iron and unearthly grace for +2 LA. The racial HD are BARELY wrose then just being bard 7. You people have a very 'unique' concept of what balanced is.

Try +4 LA and it might be getting there. Unearthly grace is amazing, and wroth 1-2 LA all by itself.

What spells and items are banned in your games?

Kizara
2007-06-29, 01:32 AM
What spells and items are banned in your games?

Anything not in PHB, DMG, MM (with MM 2-3 being used sometimes), Complete War, Arcan, Div, Adv has to be approved and houseruled in on a case-by-case basis. Oh, we also use the Arms and Equipment Guide.
Some things in those books are tinkered with too. Time Stop allows SR, Gated creatures can't use their own summoning abilities for 1 hour (see fiends), and we just don't abuse Wish. PHB2 in general has alot of hate, and stuff in there is picked at with a fine comb before being allowed. Beserker is nerfed, we are looking at buffing paladin, etc.

Some things, such as variant classes (paladin of tryranny) that are very little altered are allowed easily.
We generally have a gentlemen's understanding to not go heavy on the cheese, to not exploit loopholes and to try to keep a fair and balanced game. Part of doing such is keeping our metagame small so we aren't always dealing with some new-fangled crap every 3 months and have constant power escalation. If you don't think such exists compare PHB->DMG->Complete war/adv -> PHB2 -> ToB. If you don't see it, then you don't understand what I'm saying.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-06-29, 01:33 AM
What spells and items are banned in your games?

He's got a point; if you're having ToB and PHB2 banned (nerfing melee a ton even if Celerity is out of the picture), the main cheese spells should also be out of the picture to bring casters back to ground level (though not "nerfing" them so much as "balancing" them, really). Then your build requirements would change significantly, without the need to get around Forcecage/Timestop/Gate/no-saves/save-and-suck/etc.

Edit: Ninja'd!

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-29, 01:42 AM
Anything not in PHB, DMG, MM (with MM 2-3 being used sometimes), Complete War, Arcan, Div, Adv has to be approved and houseruled in on a case-by-case basis. Oh, we also use the Arms and Equipment Guide.
Some things in those books are tinkered with too. Time Stop allows SR, Gated creatures can't use their own summoning abilities for 1 hour (see fiends), and we just don't abuse Wish. PHB2 in general has alot of hate, and stuff in there is picked at with a fine comb before being allowed. Beserker is nerfed, we are looking at buffing paladin, etc.

Some things, such as variant classes (paladin of tryranny) that are very little altered are allowed easily.
We generally have a gentlemen's understanding to not go heavy on the cheese, to not exploit loopholes and to try to keep a fair and balanced game. Part of doing such is keeping our metagame small so we aren't always dealing with some new-fangled crap every 3 months and have constant power escalation. If you don't think such exists compare PHB->DMG->Complete war/adv -> PHB2 -> ToB. If you don't see it, then you don't understand what I'm saying.

I'm just curious, since as a non-magic user, you really won't have a chance in hell vs. a caster using metamagic'd (don't forget rods!) rays of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion, quickened true strike to make sure his rays hit, rays of ennervation (2d4 negative levels, no save? ouch), as well as stuff like solid fog, force cage, or nauseating vapors. This, of course, is while he's invisible and flying, or riding a 240' move phantom steed.

Then, there's the whole chain of polymorph spells, where the caster can turn his familiar into a monster of CR= your ECL, and you still have the caster to contend with. Better yet, he uses shapechange on the little blighter.

The main issue with noncasters vs. casters at high levels is that
a) casters can shut you down if you fail a save just as easily as you can shut them down with a swordstroke,
b) goodluck reaching them,
and c) hope you catch them flat footed, and close.

I don't really want to turn this into a "casters are teh win!" debate, which I guess I'm sort of doing. But in order to properly have you combat mages, we ought to know what you're up against, yes?


Also, is there any way noncasters can get spellcraft/know: arcana on their skill lists? It seems like a dedicated mage slayer would study that sort of thing.

Kizara
2007-06-29, 01:57 AM
Pretty sure hexblade gets know: arcana, since they have arcane spells and spellcraft as class.

And the thing is that's hard for people to understand is that the people I play with don't DO stuff like you are afraid of. Metamagic rods are not used, at all. We didnt even need to ban them, just noone wanted to be that gay.

Forcecage/cloudkill cheese? Nope.
Some stuff with polymorphing your familiar? Nope.
If it doesn't seem reasonable or balanced, then the chances are even if I didn't explicitly say otherwise, its not being used.

Ray's allow saves, except for enegy drain and such. But if at 9th level spells he uses his action to give me -5 to stuff, and then I kill him, I am cool with that.

Fog and stuff is an issue sure, but my character can dimension door 3/day to get around that kind of stuff.

Offensive polymorphing, save-or-die and such have always been caster staples and the need for a high saves/SR/etc is very obvious to me. Remember occult slayer gives you alot of defenses there.

Keld Denar
2007-06-29, 11:25 AM
I'd say you have a lot of bases covered with OS. The non-detection and mind blank abilities shore up most of the primary problems vs casters (scry, teleport, pwn, teleport, sleep, repeat). I'd recommend something with freedom of movement (such as the ring). That will prevent you from getting solid fogged. Some recommended Rod(s) of Cancelation, but that's not overyly huge since you have dim door 3x/day. It would be a good backup if you've already burned them though. Or if you could find an item that grants you disintegrate at the lowest possible caster level xper day. (level doesn't matter when using disintegrate to take down force walls, prismatic walls, etc).

One thing that people often overlook on dim door though, is that it ends your turn on completion, regardless of how many actions you have left. So you can't quickened dim door and full attack. I'd even read it as not being able to claim AoOs either, since it explicitly states that you can't take ANY more actions until your next turn.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm
3rd sentance

To the person who recommended taking limited caster levels, it should be noted that the mageslayer feat give effective -4 caster levels. To the OP, this also cuts off pretty much all of your hexblade spells.

Hexblade and Occult Slayer both have spellcraft and K:Arcana as class skills. Good for IDing spells before you choose to reflect them.

Also, to the OP, you are allowed to include a 5' step as part of a readied action. You are NOT allowed to take a 5' step as part of a readied action if you have already taken a move action that round. So, unless you can use a move equivilent that isn't moving, or you start your round pt blank with the caster, or you have reach, the caster can just 5' back and port/timestop/win/etc. The only way around this that I can think of is reach. That's why my occult slayer uses a spiked chain. I'm sorry, but I just can't think of any other way around that unless you can self enlarge.

Kizara
2007-06-29, 02:23 PM
Thanks for the input.

Although Mage Slayer reduces your caster level by 4, it doesn't reduce your actual spell progression. It's basically going to make the duration of all your spells crap (1 hour only, 10 min only, etc) and reduce dimension door distance).

Freedom of Movement is a great idea. I'm thinking that, something of see invis/true sight and fly and I should be fairly set. + normal combat items ofc.

And.... that's LAME. Stupid errata. That ruins quite a bit of my fun. The whole idea I was working with was:
*blink*
*stun/disable/slow move*
*own*

So, guess im stuck with spiked chain stuff. Although enlarge is a great buff no matter what your build.

Keld Denar
2007-06-29, 02:50 PM
I highly recommend for antimage dual bashers, power treads, a butterfly, and a vladamir's offering, toss in a hyperstone if you feel unlucky. That'll drain all your opponents mana and leave him vulnerable to void in case he manages to get out of the stun lock.

Oh, wait, this isn't DotA, wrong antimage.

And yeah, don't worry, most people make that misconception with dim door as well. The best useage of dim door is actually more selfless. If you have allies, they can join hands, then you can dim door to the baddy, and they all come out of delay and get full attacks. Kind of like giving up your action to give all your allies pounce for the round.

Kizara
2007-06-29, 03:21 PM
AM needs a hood first, and with fly one basher is more then enough. I was actually extremely good at DotA back when I played regularly. And yep, you got the reference spot-on. :)

Thanks for the Dim door tip, my characters generally aren't terribly party-reliant (competance issues), but that's a nice trick.


Edit: Took a look at arcane duelist. Wussiest and stupidest class ever. I don't care if Apparent Defense is actually good, I'm not disgracing my character with that crap.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-29, 09:44 PM
The only way of acting after a DD I know about is using an augmented psionic DD.


Edit: Took a look at arcane duelist. Wussiest and stupidest class ever. I don't care if Apparent Defense is actually good, I'm not disgracing my character with that crap.

It's an offensively bad PrC.

Aximili
2007-06-29, 10:55 PM
It's an offensively bad PrC.
I think he ment it Roleplay-wise.
Second thought, I think he ment it I'm-not-compromising-my-manhood-with-that-wise.

Kizara
2007-06-30, 01:09 AM
I think he ment it Roleplay-wise.
Second thought, I think he ment it I'm-not-compromising-my-manhood-with-that-wise.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. It's actually possibly broken with Apparent Defense and the very poorly-written flurry of swords. (images that attack? WTF seriously. Can you say sneak-attack+ power attack + etc etc gayness x6+ images that all flank?)

The fluff, RP flavour and general THOUGHT put into this class is abysmal. My character would kill anyone with a level in this class on sight on pure principle.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-30, 01:25 AM
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/re_0203_arc_med.jpg

I have a pretty solid no "big hats with feathers in them" policy.

The class isn't anywhere near as powerful as you think it is. Look at the BAB and the fact that half its abilities take away from your chance to hit, and the other half subtract from your damage. It's a monk with a big hat. The capstone ability you get at a minimum of what, level 17? Level 16? It's mostly a bard PrC that doesn't progress either of the features that set bards apart: casting and music. At least the capstone ability lets you use mobility in conjunction with all those blades.

Keld Denar
2007-07-02, 12:18 PM
So, apparently there is a feat Sun School which lets you make a single attack after a dim door. It was intended as a monk feat to give them something akin to a blink strike. I don't know what book it's in, though. Maybe someone on the board could help with that.

The only problem is it leaves you with a single attack. You can still do something like a trip or a stun or something like that if you got em.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-07-02, 05:52 PM
im kinda new but heres wat i think is a simple solution

well the easyest way is be somthing with spell resistance, then get boots of tele, or somthing that speeds ur assalt twords ur "mage" and u need a amulet of somthing, i cant remember right now. i think it is in complete war, but when ur in range turn on ur anti-magic field and then hack away. when done sack body for goods run away/find new prey. wash, rinse, repeat.

Stormcrow
2007-07-02, 06:03 PM
Theres a reason that the Mercurial Swords didn't make it into 3.5 edition. They are horribly, horribly broken. Did you factor the enourmous XP penalty for having so many classes into the build?

Kizara
2007-07-02, 07:56 PM
if all your classes are within 1, it doesnt matter. And RAW, PrCs don't count towards multiclassing penalties ever.

barbarian 1, ranger 1, fighter 2, hexblade 3, crimson scourge (PrC) 1 occult slayer (PrC) 5.

Explain to me how I have multiclassing penalties.

As for mercurial weapons, I would challange you to tell me why they are broken. You are getting an exotic weapon for +1 crit multiplier, which seems to follow the 'exotic weapons have 1 stat, 1 better then martial' precendent.


And as for an amulet of anti-magic field... yes, that would be highly useful, if I could get such an item.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-07-02, 08:21 PM
ya it may be alittle expensive, bc ur obivously arent goin to make it :smallbiggrin: . but ya its the almost ultiament defenese with magic.

Keld Denar
2007-07-03, 06:30 AM
if all your classes are within 1, it doesnt matter. And RAW, PrCs don't count towards multiclassing penalties ever.

barbarian 1, ranger 1, fighter 2, hexblade 3, crimson scourge (PrC) 1 occult slayer (PrC) 5.

Explain to me how I have multiclassing penalties.


Actually, since hexblade is 2 levels higher than barb and ranger, you would have 2 penalties, for a total of -40%. Since I doubt hexblade is a favored class for gith-yanki. Double check the rules on multiclassing. It doesn't matter that you have 2 levels of fighter in there. It only looks at your max non-favored class and all non-favored classes that are 2 or more from it.

It doesn't matter much for you though, since you are just building a level 15, right?

Ninja Chocobo
2007-07-03, 08:36 AM
Time Stop allows SR

Wait what?
Why would you want to resist Time Stop? It's a personal buff.


So, apparently there is a feat Sun School which lets you make a single attack after a dim door. It was intended as a monk feat to give them something akin to a blink strike. I don't know what book it's in, though. Maybe someone on the board could help with that.

I believe it's in CWar.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-07-03, 11:20 AM
ok heres one i just thought of, it would be hard to do, maybe even hard to talk a dm in to it but heres an idea. find a spellcaster, rather high lvl. hav him enchant an arrow head with an anti magic field. shot at target caster. make sure it sticks and then u hav a mobile antimagic field around caster. theres alot of vareables and alot of holes so not the best idea, and would be rather expensive and easy to lose. but if ur mage has no idea that he is now surrounded by no-magic-zone then he cast and cast and well sucks to be him,.

Vendle
2007-07-06, 01:52 AM
Cleric is the anti-mage.

She has access to many of the Wiz/Sorc spells through Domain lists. She has enough base attack bonus to hit a caster most of the time. She has two good saves vs. the "game over" spells, protects herself vs. negative energy for most of the spells that don't allow a save, and has decent HP for the reflex saves she's going to fail.

That's my two cp.

Kizara
2007-07-06, 02:33 AM
Wait what?
Why would you want to resist Time Stop? It's a personal buff.



1) It's an ELH variant. If you cast Time Stop, everyone around you gets to have an SR check or you don't get super speed. Or something, tbh it hasn't ever come up and I don't have the ELH in front of me. But basically, we saw the ELH variant for time stop and thought "hey ok, we'll do that if it ever matters"



2) Anti-magic field is a personal buff, you can't cast it on an item. Not to mention your idea is very cheesy although undeniably effective if you ever actually pulled it off. And people would very much realize they suddenly are under an AMF. For one thing, spellcraft could indentify it; for another, you would notice all your debuffs and such winking out suddenly.


3) As for multiclassing, I didn't realize that. But you can simply take the hexblade level last and its not an issue.

4) Clerics can compete well with mages but are not that great as anti-casters compared to a build like mine. You have good fort and will sure, but you dont have stuff like arcane resistance, SR, mind blank and spell turning. Finally, your offensive melee abilities are sorely lacking, as you don't have alot of additional damage options and have sub-par BAB and hp.
Not saying clerics are bad, and certinally not at mid-high level, but they don't fill this particular role as well as a build of this nature.